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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1998-09-17 r 1 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING MINUTES Thursday, 17 September 1998 Board Members ('absent) Also Present George Totman, Chairman Joan Fitch, Recording Secretary Monica Carey Teresa Robinson, Town Supv. Sheldon Clark Mark Gunn, Town CEO Verl Rankin Van Travis Cecil Twigg George Van Slyke Public Present Don & Sharon Teeter; Melody Schefller; Earlene & Norman Benson, Minnie Empson, Mildred Warner; Janet & Carl Scheffler; Lauren Bishop/Ithaca Journal ; Dale Manzan/ Lansing Community News; plus others who did not register their attendance on the sheet. The meeting was called to order at 8:01 p.m. by Chairman George Totman, at first in the Code Office, but then moving to the Court Room to accommodate those in attendance . G. Totman: It's after 8 o'clock, so let's call the meeting to order. Approval of Minutes - 28 August 1998 Meeting G. Totman: Has everybody read the Minutes of the last meeting? V. Travis: Yes. G. Totman: Would somebody like to move to accept, reject, or change? G. Van Slyke: I so move. V. Travis: I second. G. Totman: Anybody against? (No Board Member so indicated.) Passed. (At this point, there were only four people in the audience and the meeting was in the CEO Office.) Discussion of Property to be Auctioned for Harry Frazier, Jr., RO - 78 Durfee Road " TM # 24- 1 -9 G. Totman: Okay, our original Agenda was about that and anything else to come before the meeting. We got a Revised Agenda the last couple of days in the mail saying that Norman and Earlene Benson were going to come talk about the auction that's going to be in their neighborhood. And, other than that, we don't have anything on the Agenda. So—and these people are all here for the same reason, and that's what you're here for. V. Rankin: If the Benson's get here at quarter after eight, I'll be surprised. They are never on time. I was in hopes the Rapps would come because they are the ones who have stirred up everything. V. Travis: I hear voices. G. Totman: I'm sure they will be coming. This isn't the way we operate, but we didn't have anything on the Agenda until this tonight, so it was going to be a very short meeting. (More people arrive, including the Bensons.) C. Twigg: Do you want to go in the other room? 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 1998 V. Travis: Why don't we move. V. Rankin: There will be another half a dozen show up. G. Totman: Maybe we better move into a larger room. (Everyone moves into the Court Room.) The meeting has originally started. We've approved the Minutes of the last meeting, and we didn't really have anything on the Agenda tonight until we got the Revised Agenda saying that some people would like to come in and talk to us about a proposed subdivision. So basically, that's the only thing we've got left on the Agenda. So is there any spokesman from the group or somebody that wants to lead it off? E. Benson, I've got a few petitions here and just some comments, I think. One of the things that we noticed when we were looking at the map of this whole thing was the fact that the road is only 1500 feet long from Cobb Street to where it turns to go out to Sovocool Hill Road. And we feel that 19, 209 21 , 22 more driveways coming out is not a good idea. And the way that it is drawn, there are 10- 11 places on one side, five on the other, and we just think that's too much traffic for that much road. And so this is one of our concerns is that the health and welfare of the people, like the Brashears. It's a quiet road and we really don't need that many more driveways coming out into the road. G. Totman: Anybody else? Melody? M. Scheffler: 1'd just like to . . . I know that people have a right to do what they want with their property, but what I'm worried about is it seems to be a fad to move out into the country right now. I'm really concerned about how easy it is to come into Groton and I don't want developers to get the idea that they can just come in and break up land like this and then the people will come and try to get approval. That's what I'm concerned about. I don't want them to see Groton as an easy place to come in and just try to chop up land for their own purposes. That's my main concern. G. Totman: Anybody else? Mildred? M. Warner: We sent a letter and there were four points that we made. G. Totman: Yes, we all received one. M. Warner: The first was that we would prefer that the Planning Board review this subdivision before it was offered for sale. And we are concerned about the, shall we say, the inaccurate map which suggested that not a very serious level of planning and review had been provided the sellers or the Planning Board, and we were concerned that the Planning Board existed to provide that kind of review. And related to that there's no protection for buyers. . . . They don't have the assurance that these subdivisions have met the requirements. And given the development of the community that we all share, we look forward to having our Planning Board review these kinds of subdivisions and not leave them to be sort of dealt with after the fact. Those are the points I believe we are raised in the letter. G. Totman: Okay. Anybody else? Okay, let me if I can -- V. Rankin: Janet -- G. Totman: Okay -- Janet. J. Scheffler: First of all, I agree with my neighbors that I like the neighborhood the way it is. I really don't want to see a housing development right down the street from me. On the other hand, the gentleman who owns this property has owned it for 23 years or longer—it's been at least that long. He's paid taxes on it for all that time, gotten absolutely no benefits for himself from that. He helped keep our roads built. He's helped send our children to school. He's helped pay for police protection. And he gets nothing out of that. He doesn't have kids in school here. He doesn't own a business here. He doesn't have a farm here . I don't know him, so I don't know if he's a decent guy or a jerk. But I think after all this time of paying taxes to our benefit, everybody's benefit, if he now feels the need for some reason, whatever the reason is, to sell the property, he needs to be able to do that in whatever way he thinks is best. And he could have chopped it up into smaller pieces than he did. I don't know why he's divided it into the way he did it. It looks to me like he just decided five acres was a good size, and divided 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 1998 everything into five-acre chunks. But that's much larger than he would have had to do. We recently, well not recently—it's been eight years now—bought some land at auction. It really wasn't a problem. That was property owned by. . . and the property that he owned in the Town of Groton was chopped up into ten parts that ranged in size from 4. 5 acres to 30 acres. The part that we bought was cut up into five parcels. You have an opportunity at these kinds of sales to combine parcels if you want to. That's what we did. We bought four parcels together. We didn't put any houses on it. And most of the farmland that was sold -- I would say all of the farmland, but I'm not 1000/6 sure of that, I am sure that of most of the farmland that was sold went to neighboring farmers. They combined parcels, they bought it. They haven't built any houses on it, and they're still farming it. So just because he divided it up into 15 or 10 or however, doesn't mean that's the way it's going to be sold when the auction occurs. It could be that three or four people buy the whole thing, or one person buys the whole thing. And if I lived there, I wouldn't be happy that he was selling it. But I think he has the right to sell it. G. Totman: That auction that you're talking about was done the same way that this is being done. J. Scheffler: Yes. We were told at the auction, and it said in the flyer, that the parcels could be purchased the way they were on the map, or combined in any way you wanted them combined, or that if you wanted it surveyed, you'd have to have it surveyed yourself, and that anything else that you wanted -- G. Totman: And it had to be approved by the Town Planning Board. J. Scheffler: Right. G. Totman: What I was going to say is I think there's been a lot of misconceptions about this. Number One, the Planning Board has not approved anything that's here. Absolutely nothing. This is not unusual for the Town of Groton or neighboring towns to have something like this happen. I know many times the Munsons and the Walpoles have done it around here. I think the one you're talking about was done by Munson and Walpole . J. Schefller: Yes, it was. G. Totman: But this guy wants to sell the land . They could come in for a major subdivision beforehand. It would take probably two to three months to get through the Planning Board, to go through -- this size of a parcel, if was presented to the Planning Board the way he's got it advertised, it would have been a major subdivision, and it would have had to go to the Health Department to get them to approve the lots—although all the lots that are mentioned here are five times bigger than what the Town requires. The Town requires at least 150 feet of road frontage and an acre. These are 150 feet and five acres, the smaller ones. The other ones are much bigger than that. So if he had presented it to the Planning Board as a major subdivision, there would have been a public hearing and all this sort of thing. If he sells it the way it is now, it would have to be before the Town Planning Board for a major subdivision . And then you'd have a public hearing. You'd have the Health Department come in. Anything over five lots, the Health Department has to get involved to approve the septic systems and that sort of thing. They have no idea in something like this who's going to buy what. Now I've heard somebody tell me that there's a guy on those larger lots there, the 300-foot frontage lots, I know there's one person interested in buying that whole parcel. I don't know if you've heard about it or not, but he lives in the area there. So we have no idea. When it gets done it might end up to be two or three parcels. Or, theoretically, it could wind up being this whole thing. If it was sold the way it's presented here, then it has to go through the normal public hearing, the SEAR review, through the Health Department and the County Planning Board. But it hasn't been presented to the Town Planning Board as a proposal as such. There's nothing saying you can't sell your land. Even if that was all wetlands. Some people say well how can you sell it because there's wetlands in there? I understand that along that Durfee Road part and some of those smaller lots there is. But it's not designated on our wetland maps as a wetland. It is wet, but it's not designated as wetland. But even if it was designated as a wetland, we couldn't tell the owner he couldn't sell it off into acre lots. I mean, one guy owns five acres that are wetlands, so what's wrong with five people owning the same thing? The thing of it is, they can't build on it because if it's a designated wetland, the Zoning Officer cannot give a building permit unless the septic system and the house and everything are 100 feet away from the wetland. And so nothing can happen until those things are looked at. And most people don't understand how this stuff works. If you're not involved with it everyday, you're not working with it. So if it sells the way it's 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 1998 presented here, it will be the biggest subdivision the Town of Groton's ever had. Some of the people that have talked to me over the phone have said well we don't want trailers in our area and our backyard. We don't want all these people out there. Can you hold this auction up until we can change the Ordinance so we don't allow that type of thing around in our back yard. Well, once something's been presented or proposed, of course you don't change the Ordinance anyway that easy. If they were out there just selling one or two lots off at a time, instead of this whole major thing, it could very well be sold this way. The criteria of the Subdivision Rules & Regulations in the Town Zoning Ordinance, this all falls within meeting the criteria of it. And so if the Planning Board said no, then he would have full rights to go to somebody else and say hey, they have rules and regulations in the Town and the Planning Board is not following them. So even after we've been getting all this, and I know everybody's gone to the press and I've been called by the press to give stories and stuff, I've refused because I said we're going to have a meeting tonight and we should talk about it at the meeting rather than -- I told the reporters instead of trying to make the news they should write the news. But I don't think it's news yet until something happens. N. Benson. Who pays for the extra whatever they have to do to get this subdivision? G. Totman: The subdivider has to pay. N. Benson: The subdivider, or the person that buys the land has to pay the extra -- say, the survey and that sort of stuff. G. Totman. That I can't answer. Because that's in whatever deal they make when they buy the land. N. Benson: In other words, it's all -- G. Totman: If it were done -- if you owned -- like your farm out there on the corner -- if you want to subdivided it and you come in and have 15 lots up there. You would pay for the survey and you'd get it all done and you'd come in and say this. If you were going to have somebody sell it for you, he might talk you into saying look, sell the lots one at a time and let the buyer do their own surveying and let them pay for it. But it has to be surveyed before it gets passed. But it's not the Planning Board's function to tell who pays for it. I 'm not sure if that answered your question. N. Benson: I'm still in a fog, but I guess it's all right. E. Benson: In other words, can they sell this . . . whoever buys it is going to have to have it surveyed? G. Totman: Yes. Well, like I say -- it's in the -- I wouldn't buy this and pay money for it unless I knew where the boundaries were. So I'm either going to deal with you as the seller to make sure, or I'm going to hire my own surveyor to do it. But you're going to know that before you pay for it. E. Benson: If you buy a large enough chunk, you may decide you don't need to. J. Scheffler: The property that we bought bordered us and bordered the road and so we decided not to survey it. G. Totman: But sometimes when you go to a bank, the bank will require a survey. J. Scheffler: Right. But they tell you up front. G. Totman: I guess what I'm saying to you is I think there was a misconception that the Planning Board approved of this. This is a sketch plan, and the Planning Board does not approve sketch plans. E. Benson: It isn't even accurate. G. Totman: I've heard that from people, and I think what somebody said is that the house isn't even on the lot they show on here, and that sort of thing. But it's been a practice here in Groton and in the neighboring towns to do this sort of thing. So when it was brought to us and talked to us about it, 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 19N we didn't even bat an eye or whatever. Because if they had come in and went through the process and paid all the money to get a major subdivision done , and then they sold it off in three or four lots, then they would have had to come back and do a new subdivision. So it was the feeling to do it once and get It done, whatever it was. What I think the misconception is, and of course I'm not trying to read your minds or anything because I don't think I've talked to any of you people, but I've talked to other people, is that what they were saying is, we live in the country and we don't want growth and development in our part of Town. But there's nothing in the Zoning Ordinance or the Subdivision Rules that says that Mr. Norm Benson can't sell his farm off to a person that's going to subdivide it. That's the way the Ordinance is written. And Verl Rankin -- V. Rankin: That's right. He has a right to sell his farm off the way he wants to. G. Totman: And the way it is, if they come in, read the Ordinance, and draw this thing up—which they did here—so it meets the criteria of what's in the Ordinance, then the Planning Board, if they are going to try to stop it or turn it down, they have to look for something else that's legal to do it that way. N. Benson: In other words, the property lines in the Town is all you have to go by. V. Rankin: You mean the tax map? N. Benson: The tax map shows where this property is and that's all there is to it. It don't have to be surveyed if its sold in its entirety. G. Totman: Yes, you're right. If it's sold in its—well, even then, even then if you're borrowing the money from the bank to buy its, they'll want it surveyed. Because they'll want to know what they re putting their money up for. It's not up to us to have it surveyed if you're doing it that way. Say you want to sell your whole farm. N. Benson: Yes. I may soon, yes. G. Totman: If I come up and buy it and I could afford to pay for it, I'd say okay, I'll buy your farm. But if I have to go to the bank and borrow half of the money to do it, the bank will say show me a survey so we'll know we're putting our money up for. N. Benson, But it's right there . G. Totman: The tax map isn't always exactly right. I don't know if I've explained it to you, or if it's what you want to hear or not, but -- N. Benson: So it's out of your jurisdiction, that's what it amounts to. V. Rankin: As a group, how did you get so stirred up on this thing? The main reason is one family wanted their horses up there and didn't want the people up there . And they're not even here. They are the ones that should be here. E. Benson: I don't like the idea of that many -- G. Totman: Earlene, what could have happened, if the Town of Groton was growing like some towns are around us, what would have happened in this case is instead of having these long, narrow lots, the developer would have taken one of the lots and put a road down through there, and then the back lots would have been -- ten more lots. You could have 30 lots in there, instead of 20. Of you could have more because of the lots on the other side of the road which could be divided into twos also. And I know over in the Town of Lansing, since I've been working over there since '87, they've built 33 new roads in Lansing—the developers, not the Town. And they would have come in and built a road through there. Now, it costs money to build a road, but they would have twice as many lots to sell, so they would have made money on that. I agree with you . I don't like those long, narrow lots either. But there's nothing saying that it's not legal. To me, it looks like a place where an average person might mow two or three acres, or an acre of lawn, and the rest of it's going to grow up into junk or whatever down back. And I don't like that. I really don't. But I don't know of how we can say no, you can't do that, because we don't have a limit on the length of that lot. 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 19M C. Twigg: That's what it is now. So what's the difference? V. Rankin: If somebody wanted to do something with this land that's never had anything done to it for the last 30 years, and it's absolutely worthless, nobody rents it, now everybody's G. Totman: Where our problem is going to be is when they sell it V. Rankin: Don't talk when I'm talking. You're too nice to them. G. Totman: Where' the Planning Board's problem is going to be is when they sell it, however it turns out, then we're going to have to decide whether it's a major or minor or whatever it is. And if it's a major subdivision, we're going to have to hold public hearings, and we're going to have to require them to go to the Health Department, and whatever. Now I know that there's somebody that lives in that area up there who works for an attorney that called me this afternoon and tried to tell me that we could prevent them from selling their lots. And I said no, you might be an attorney and I'm not, but we can prevent them from building on those lots if they well them illegally. That's why we have a Zoning Officer and a Building Inspector, and that sort of thing. If they don't do it legally and get permission and get Planning Board approval, they won't get a building permit after they make the sales. But if you want to sell your lot, you can sell it. But whoever buys it can't do anything with it unless they get approval of it. Now somebody might say I'm wrong on that, but that's the way I understand it. E. Benson: The ones across the road, the 300-foot ones here, now there are five right along that Durfee Road. If they sell those individually so that five different people buy them, each one then has to have it surveyed? Each one has to come to you and say I want to build a house there? What makes a subdivision, if one person buys all of those, or if five people buy them? G. Totman: The division of land is when you get more than three lots; then it's a subdivision. The owner has to come to us. The guy that's doing the subdividing, the way I understand it. Now they might make a deal where one guy might buy, take the long, narrow lots; one person might buy four of them and decide they might put two of them together and they want to sell the rest of them. Once he buys it and gets it in his name, then he has to come for the subdivision if he buys a block of lots like that. But if they sell them the way it is here -- I'm sure somebody out there must have a brochure that the guys sent out -- and on that brochure it says "Subject to Town Planning Board approval. " And after I heard a couple of weeks ago—Scott Rapp called me three or four times in one day—I called the auctioneer and I told him the neighbors were all upset about what he was planning on doing, and explained to him that he might have some opposition; and he needed to make sure that he told the people that whatever they bought, it would be subject to Town approval. And he assured me that's what he had done in all the other places he's been. And he assured me that it would be on the brochure, which it is. I really don't know -- I ran it by the Town Attorney the other night as to what was happening and all that sort of thing. And I asked him if he felt there was anything we could do about it ahead of time, and he didn't seem to offer any—and I didn't expect him to, to tell you the truth. But in this letter, Mildred, that you wrote, I guess probably I could take issue with you on some, but its not my place to do that. I understand the feelings of the people, but if nothing has been formally presented to the Planning Board, then it's kind of hard to act on something that hasn't been presented to you. Do you follow what I'm saying? M. Warner: I guess maybe you've clarified some . . . G. Totman: Pardon? M. Warner: I understand that the auctioneer was here at the last Planning Board meeting and there was a fairly long conversation on how to do this from the Planning Board. And one of the comments that you made at that time was that if he was trying to do it in Lansing you would require more than what he presented to you. My question is why? G. Totman: Did I say that in the Minutes? M. Warner: Yes, you did. G. Van Slyke: You said that it would be more detailed. 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 1998 V. Rankin: You were talking about the sketch . M. Carey. You referred to the soil and -- G. Totmane, Yes, if he was presenting it -- maybe where the misconception was—if he was presenting it as a subdivision. Because, Mildred, this lady -- Ms. Schefiker over here -- mentioned the land that she bought. Part of that land was also sold in Lansing. The Miles Munson property. And the auctioneer came to the Lansing Planning Board and said the same thing that's happening here -- that I don't know how it's going to sell, but this is the concept. And we'll tell these people that if they are buying the whole block, they probably won't have to come to the Planning Board, because if it's over five or six acres you don't. But that same parcel that she's saying that she bought, was in both towns, the Town of Groton and the Town of Lansing, and the same thing happened in both towns. So I think what I was probably referring to was if you were presenting this as a major subdivision in the Town of Lansing, you would have to have much more than that. But you also would in Groton, too. M. Warner: Should I read it? G. Totman: Yes, if you want to. Maybe you better not. M. Carey, What page is it on? M. Warner: It's on page 3. You say, "I'll tell you, if you were bringing this into the town that I work in, they would require you to bring soil maps in to show what the soil's like, and how much land -- where the wetland is --Which town is that? The Town of Lansing. Oh yes, we don't even go that direction. " And you said "It would be very di,Q`erent And I think in most of the places you'd go to they would require more than what you gave us here. I think you know that But, anyway, we don't want to be dill icult. We probably would, after we get all the necessary paperwork, wouldn't have that much trouble passing this. But we would look at it tonight and say, well, by the nature of this we're going to need a Long- Form SEAR. That would mean you would come back on the 17th of September. Then we would set a Public Hearing for October, and probably you might get it passed in October or November doing it this way. If you sell it and announce up front that it's contingent upon Planning Board approval, you've met with the Planning Board - I've already got that sort of in the ad already. And, then, these people buy the land They have to put upfront money so the owner can get some money up front. " But what I would like to know is, when you make these comments, and I think in most of the places you go they would require more than what you've given us here -- G. Totmane. Well, if we were going to formally accept what you've got in your hand, which is what he gave, we would require a lot more than that also. I think maybe I didn't say it quite right. M. Warner: Well, I was going to say what does Lansing have that we don't? G. Totmane. Their ordinances are almost identical. V. Travis: I think the context of that conversation, as I recall it, was that he came in with what you have seen. And I think what George was trying to say to this guy is that you wouldn't even get this conversation, or even onto the Agenda or allowed into the room, with as little as you have brought here. I came to that meeting early, and I'm a fairly new member of the Planning Board. This was my first major subdivision case that had been presented since I came onto the Board . So I read the Ordinance before coming over. I came a little early, and I said to George, 'This doesn't even meet the barest minimum requirements of our Ordinance. " You can't even find where north is on this map. Nor are the roads labeled other than as you, in your mind, can possibly piece together the word Hill and two e's which you think might be Durfee, and so you go through this mental process of putting this all together. This does not meet the requirements of our Ordinance, and we discussed all that with him, and he understands if a major subdivision is presented to this Board there's a lot that needs to be done that he hasn't yet done. And he left with that understanding clearly, clearly known. G. Totman: Yes, sir? Name? C. Scheffler: rm Carl Scheffier, and I probably missed something by coming in a little late . From what I heard here it sounds like a lot of the objections are based on emotions rather than facts. The 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 1998 fact of the matter is, like Verl said, the land isn't valuable for farming. The last two people who worked It are out of business. It hasn't been worked in years. My family worked it 25 years ago and it wasn't economically viable then. And it just seems to me that this is a better use for it than laying idle. The fact of the matter is, nobody wants to farm it. Another fact of the matter is concern about lot size. We're concerned about the Town of Groton. But if the sale were happening in McLean, how many of you people would be here tonight? I don't see very many McLean people here. So it's not really a concern about the Town of Groton, it's a concern about your neighborhood, which is a good thing. But don't say it's a concern about the Town. If you're concerned about these lot sizes, I called several of the people in the room tonight when the Town was going to reduce the road frontage requirements from 200 to 150 and institute flag lots, Janet and I came to the meeting, but I don't think anybody else here did and objected to it. If you're concerned that the lots are only 150 feet wide, you really don't have a complaint because you didn't come to the meeting. Another fact of the matter is, if the lots get much bigger than what they are, a lot of people can't afford them. Banks don't want to lend money on more than 10 acres G. Totman: Four. Just from what you're saying, I've had to help people cut their lots up in half so the bank would loan them the money to building their house. I don't understand the banks, because it seems like the more land you own, the more it would be worth . But that's the way they operate . C. Twigg: The tax assessor feels that way. C. Scheffier: If you require larger lot sizes, you'd price a lot of people right out of the market. I know Mr. Teeter and I discussed this a month or so ago, and he'd just as soon stay where he's at. And he'd like some land to go with it. But if he has to buy 40 acres of land, he might not be able to do it. This is a legitimate concern. Young people need houses and they need a place to live. Everybody here has a place to live. There's other people looking for them. This is an opportunity for them. I don't think we have the right to deny that. I don't think we have the right to deny Mr. Frazier the way to sell his property. He's paid taxes here for 23 years. You've taken his money, educated your children, maintained your roads, and thousands of dollars. And now you're going to tell him he can't sell his property? I think that's ludicrous. G. Totman: Okay, C. Scheffler: Thank you. G. Totman: Is there anybody else? E. Benson: We never said he couldn't sell it. We just don't like the way he's divided it. G. Van Slyke: I'd like to make a comment about that. As the Scheffler's have found, when an auction is done like this, all he is doing is putting this up front. He's saying this is how we plan to do this, the selling. And what's going to happen is, probably, if the land is as Mr. Scheffler's saying it is, well people aren't going to come in here and buy these individual little lots anyway. They are probably going to buy -- maybe two or three people come in and buy two or three or something like that of the larger sections. So you're not going to see a 20-lot subdivision there. You may never see it there. Because, as I understand the auctioneer, he's going to sell the parcels, and then he's going to sell it in its entirety. And this is the way auctions run. And if you've ever been to auctions, you know this is how it's done all the time. Anyway they can get the most money out of it for the guy that has it. There's nothing wrong with that. It's the good old American way here. And to say that this guy can't try to get his money out of this land after all these years, I agree with Mr. Scheffler, it's a little ludicrous. The thing is, you're not guaranteed you'll see 20 lots there . E. Benson: I have a question. I don't understand something about this. He sells it. And somebody wants to buy three lots, they sell it for three lots. G. Totman: Or they might put the whole block on sale and say the price you get is for each lot. How many lots do you want? That's the way they do it most of the time . E. Benson: I see . And then he goes back and tries to sell it again? 8 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 1998 G. Totman: No, no. C. Twigg: Yes, they do it twice. They'll go through and they'll sell the individual lots. And then they'll say, is there anybody who wants these lots put together? And the guy will say, yes, I'd like that section over there and this section over here together; put them up for bid. And if he bids more for those two together than they were bid on separately, they're his. E. Benson: Even though somebody else has the other ones? C. Twigg: Someone else had bid otherwise, but he outbid him. Now that Parker farm down there when they sold that, they sold that in about 8 or 10 different parcels. And then came to the end and the guy said, all right, anybody want to put anything together? Yes. They put this together, that together. Then in the end, they put it all together. And that ,joker hadn't bid on a thing all day long and he up and bought the whole farm. After they parceled it all out and sold it all out separately, this guy comes along and buys the whole thing and he got it because what he bid in total was more than they bid separately on the lots. G. Totman: But they have to tell everybody up front that's the way they're going to do it. C. Scheffler: If you increase the lot size, you're more than likely to get some type of development in there, where somebody could come in and have to buy 40 acres? They might put a trailer park in there - - they might put a go-cart track in -- or they might put an adult entertainment center because there's no houses nearby. G. Totman: I'm not going to answer that one--I've been through that one . Well, the only thing is it won't happen quite the way you say it because I'm sure some of the land is going to be sold so there will be building lots in there . And with the adult entertainment that you mentioned, and I'm sure you did it . for a joke, but you have to be a thousand feet away from something to get those, so that will throw that out anyway. Normally, people nowadays don't put trailer parks in unless they have public water or public sewer and you don't see them coming out into the country as much as you use to years ago because of the Health Department regulations and stuff like that. The ones that are there, a lot of them are not existing very well. But I don't think there's any way of knowing for sure who's going to be at the auction or who's going to buy it. It's like Cecil just said. I remember that auction, but I didn't go to it. I've never been to a real estate auction like that. I know auctioneers, and I've talked to them, and they've told me what he was saying -- E. Benson: So you go to buy a piece of property and you buy a piece of property, and the next thing you know it's been sold -- C. Twigg: Sold right out from under you. E. Benson: It doesn't seem fair. C. Twigg: Well, if you want that lot -- you better bid high enough , or figure on buying the whole thing. C. Scheffler: When we bought the property, we combined parcels because we didn't get all the parcels in the first go-round. C. Twigg: I've done that with Munson. I wanted the one across the road and they sold the one across the road and the one behind it in separate lots. And when they got done, I said put these two together. And the guy that bid on the other lot over on the other road, he didn't want both, so he got out. So I got both lots because I asked the auctioneer to put the two -- now the other guy was a little bit upset with me. J. Scheffler: But you know what happens. It happens right there . E. Benson: You know it right away? C. Twigg: You know it before you go home. 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 19M G. Totman: Before you walk off the property, you know where he stands. C. Twigg: But if you like the thing the way it is now, that would be a good way to go to the auction and buy the whole thing. And you can do whatever you want to with it. G. Totman: No you can't. You've got to come to the Planning Board first. I don't really know what else I can tell you. I know there's a lot of people upset. But the only thing that I felt really was that some of the people that called me said, we don't want trailers in our neighborhood, or we don't want this, or we don't want small lots in our neighborhood, and you should know this. And I said, well, Tm sorry, but the Town of Groton has rules and regulations that the Planning Board has to go by. And if the Town of Groton says you've got to have at least an acre of land and 150 feet and you come in with a drawing, and they all got that and there's no swamp there, and you take care of the runoff, and the topo maps show there's isn't going to be any great thing, and all these other things happen, then you might get a major development in that area. Because it would be legal. Melody? M. Scheffier: I'd just like to make one final closing comment. I know that each individual town and village has there own zoning laws. I mean they are different. I just want to make sure that Groton is up to snuff as much as it can be and that there are no loopholes open that need to be closed up. I just want to make sure that Groton's planning is not being driven by outside forces. Because k developers get the idea that coming to Groton -- G. Totman: I don't really think it is. Melody, for your information, Jeannie Barrett and Joan Jerkowicz (?) drafted this Ordinance. If that helps you any. M. Scheffier: How long ago was that? G. Totman: Well, the last one was '95, the update was. But the County Planning Department, through the Circuit Rider Program -- we contracted, the Town contracted with the County Planning Department to make sure we did exactly what you're saying. M. Scheffler: Here's a really neat diagram that someone did today. You know how the lots were drawn out this long. So what's wrong with planning -- here's four lots that are drawn like this that are more aesthetically pleasing. Instead of such a long block, make it something more like this. G. T.otman: What she is proposing, Teresa would really get made about. She's proposing you take four lots, two would be -- and I like your idea because Ive worked with a lot of them like that -- but what she's proposing is flag lots so that you could use the back lots. For example, instead of having those long and narrow like that, in the back lots you would have more of a road -- you might cut down the size of it in front. You might not, instead of having ten lots, you might have only eight because you'd have 20400t strips going to the back lots. And then you really could sell more of them, but they wouldn't be so long and narrow. Theyre really what we call flag lots. I've got some developments just like that on Scofield Road that sold like hotcakes. People like to get in back. C. Twigg: Like on Spring Street. Those people bought those 200-foot road frontages and you can't see their house hardly. So all this land, all this hayfield up there on Spring Street, the good building lot part of it, supposedly, they've got to mow and maintain. And they get absolutely nothing out of it. G. Totman: The aesthetics they get. They have a nice lawn, right? M. Empson, I just have this one question. If the worst case scenario is every one of these lots should sell as it is on this map, then you say it's a major subdivision. At that point, everything shifts into gear. You've got to do all these things that you want. Who pays for all that? G. Totman: The subdivider. The owner. M. Empson. Frazier. The ones that bought all the individual lots, or the one who owned it originally? 10 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 1998 G. Totman: Well, subject to Planning Board approval. It really isn't up to the Planning Board who pays for it as long as somebody pays. I guess I would be wrong in answering your question the way you're asking it. Somebody's got to pay for it. M. Empson: If they say it's a no-go and it's not going to work, what happens to all the people that bought that? Do they get their money back? G. Totman: Bear in mind, now, they're told up front that they're buying it this way. V. Rankin: That's their tough luck. G. Totman: The only thing I see, though , is like I said before, they are all legal lots. In fact, they are all five times bigger than what we require. But if there's water in those lots like people say there is, and if it's a major subdivision, the Health Department might come in and say well, you can develop this lot or this lot, but you can't this one and this one because there's too much water there and you can't get the house far enough from the water. And that happens sometimes. And then you can never build on those other lots unless sewer comes through or something like that. M. Empson: You also mentioned a trailer park -- G. Totman: I didn't mention a trailer park. M. Empson. Well, someone here mentioned a trailer park -- G. Totman: That guy back there did. And if there's a trailer park proposed, the Town Board would handle that. Trailer parks have to be licensed to operate, and the Planning Board can't give out licenses. BL Empson: How many trailers constitute a park? G. Totman: More than two on a given piece of land. M. Empson: I thought that we had an ordinance here that you couldn't have trailers. G. Totman: No. The only ordinance where we tried to do that once, years ago because there were people that had a lot of problems with trailers, we were going to ban them in all the Town except for West Groton, and Verl didn't agree with that. C. Scheffler: Don't they have to be a certain size and age restrictions apply? G. Totman: Yes, that's a State Building Code that covers that. C. Scheffler: Is there some restriction as to -- G. Totman: They have to be the equivalent of something newer than a $76 unless you can prove by a contractor that he brought it up to current Code. Normally, it's too expensive on an old trailer like that to have somebody do that. It's cheaper to buy a used '89 or '90. E. Benson: With the water situation, it would be very interesting if they tried to do that. G. Totman: I would like people would be very scary buying those to be honest with you. The other lots on the other side of the road seem to be pretty good-sized lots. Actually, it will be interesting to see how this thing comes out. I hope it doesn't sell, obviously, the way it's laid out here. The feeling I get from talking to the real estate people and all of them will tell you the same thing -- they will do anything that the seller wants you to do so they can get the sale. He indicated, when I called him back on the phone, that he had no idea in the world that this would sell like this, but the owner wanted as many lots as he could get because he thought he could get more money out of it. In all sincerity, and maybe Ws not relevant but I think it is, back in 485 I got into real estate and I went with a group of real estate people to a house in Groton up on Elm Street, and they appraised it to see what it was worth and to put it on the market for, because this lady's daughter lived in Maryland, and the houses around 11 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 1898 Maryland she was comparing to her mother's house, and she wanted to put it on the market for $ 110,000, We got together, and everybody agreed, it wouldn't be worth more than $50,000 to $60,000. And I thought that's what they were going to go back and tell her. But instead, the sales person said we'll put it on the market for what you want -- knowing full well they couldn't sell it. So they had people come and look at it and look at it. Two months went by, and then they went back and said look, we can't sell your house. So they still got it, and they got her to sign up again, and they finally sold it for $70,000, To me, that's the way these kind of people operate -- to get people to do anything like that. This guy told us that night that he had no idea in the world that it would sell like this. V. Travis: That's in the Minutes. E. Benson: He didn't divide it? G. Totman: I think he divided it up -- he bought our Ordinance and through the copy of our subdivision laws I think he did what the owner wanted him to do, divide it up into as many lots as he could divide it up into, and say this is what it could possibly be . I can't remember the exact page, but I think in the Minutes it will show you that he really didn't think that himself. Anything else? M. Warner: Two questions for future reference. One is a point that we made in our letter that there's no protection for the buyer. It looks like a house lot. It meets the minimum requirements. Then after I bought it, to and behold, there's no way I could put my trailer or house there because of the way this land is. V. Rankin: You've got to know this ahead of time, Mildred. M. Warner: So the buyer is left holding the bag. And I guess what you're telling me is, too bad, the seller benefits and the buyer is left holding the bag. I guess what my question is, in the future could you imagine an answer that enabled the Planning Board to look at something like this and do something to protect the interests of a potential buyer? Because the potential buyer would be a resident of Groton. C. Twigg: That is why when you go buy real estate you should take a lawyer with you if you don't understand real estate a little bit. And the lawyer would bring that to your attention. If you want to buy this property, the lawyer would bring up you've got to get Health Department approval, and you've got to do this, and we better put something in, when you give him the money, that the Health Department approves it or you get your money back. G. Van Slyke: I'd just like to make a comment. I can't really visualize -- you've got to be a pretty naive couple that you're going to go to an auction and buy a piece of property and try to put your trailer on it If you don't know something about the situation that you're walking into. It would see like if you're going to go pay some money for property, and I would if I was going to do it, or if I was going to buy anything -- a car, anything -- I would not go up there and say oh, boy, I'm just going to jump right in here and pay my money out and buy this piece of property unless I have some guarantees that I'm going to be able to use that property. Saying that there are unwitting buyers out there -- you've got to be pretty naive in this day and age not to have an understanding about what you're getting into when you're doing these things. J. Scheffler: Another point is you could be buying the property without intent to put a house on it; you could put a greenhouse on it. You could use it for a riding trail. You don't have to put a house on it. G. Totman: Yes, but normally when somebody buys a lot that small -- J. Scheffier: You don't want to have to go get the Health Department involved in it if you don't intend to put a house on it. And as the seller, I wouldn't care what they were going to do with it because I'm selling it. If you do care what you're going to do with it, you could put deed restrictions on it. That can be done by the seller if the seller wants to do it. G. Totman: In the Town of Groton, and I think in most towns around, if you've got five acres of land and you decide you don't need all of it and you want to sell one acre off for a building lot, if you sell It to somebody, then it doesn't go through the Planning Board. And they are taking the same risk then 12 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 17 September 1998 as you be buying one of these lots. They are just taking your world. Unless they have somebody come in and take a perc test ahead of time, or whatever, they are taking the same risk as you'd have by buying one of these lots here. In a way though , in this world, I don't think we want to be so restrictive in America where everybody's God over everybody else. Some people have to be on their own when they do things. If we went through this country and made all kinds of rules that nobody could do anything unless somebody protected them -- I think the country would come to a halt. Well, I thank you for coming and we'll do our best after the sale. I'm sure you'll be back. Additional Questions/Comments from the Audience E. Benson: What did the people from Sirens come in here and say? G. Totman: Nothing. E. Benson: Did they say they were going to start a restaurant? G. Totman: Yes, E. Benson: That was it? G. Totman: Well, I wasn't here . They didn't see me. They saw the Zoning Officer. They didn't get to the Planning Board. E. Benson: Oh, I see. G. Totman: All they did was, as I understand it, they had the building inspected to see that it meets the Fire Codes, and that sort of thing. That building, obviously, has been there for a long, long time. And in the last 20 years its had six owners and they've all been bar and restaurants and none of them got any special permits to operate one . It was operating, and somebody buys it off of somebody else, and it keeps on operating; they just change the name. And this is what they told the Code Enforcement Officer when they had it inspected that it was going to be run like a restaurant in Cortland. So he decided that we'd treat it like we've been treating it in the past. But the day they opened, it wasn't like that. It was something different. Mark, you've been talking to George; that's about right isn't it? M. Gunn: Sounds about right. E. Benson: So they never got to the Planning Board? V. Travis: That is correct. G. Totman: So it's still in litigation. Thanks for coming. Adjournment/Announcement V. Travis: I move that we adjourn. M. Carey: I second. G. Totman: All in favor? (All indicated they were in favor.) The meeting was adjourned at 90. 10 p.m. an E. Fitch Recording Secretary 13 I ATTENDANCE SHEET (77 MWMG OF BOMO- (Your attendance is recorded in the meeting minutes.) t 1 I A JOY" Form MF . . ! FEW, _ - �, 9