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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1998-08-20 t TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING MINUTES Thursday, 20 August 1998 Board Members ('absent) Others Present George Totman, Chairman Joan Fitch, Recording Secretary Monica Carey Bernard Brzostek, Applicant 'Sheldon Clark •Verl Rankin Van Travis Cecil T wigg George Van Slyke The meeting was called to order at So. 15 p.m. by Chairman George Totman, G. Totman: We're going to call the meeting to order. When we don't have a quorum, we can discuss anything and make all the preliminaries, but we can't vote on anything. Harry Frazier, Jr., RO/Brzostek Real Estate Auction Co., Inc., Applicant _- Preliminary Site Plan Review or 78 Dur ee Road - TM # 24- i -9 G. Totman: We're talking about a 20-lot subdivision of approximately five acres each, and we have submitted to us a sketch drawing from the tax map, an application, and we have the adjoining lot owners, and a Short Form SEQR However, I really believe we're going to have to have a Long Form SEQR on this because it's a major subdivision. When we get a form to go over, we'll have to decide that. The Board will ask the questions. Normally what we do with something like this is -- see if you have a public hearing, which would be required on a major subdivision, then we present this to the public hearing that way. Then, if you sell two lots and someone might come in and say I want 300 feet, not 150 -- B. Brzostek: Then you just buy two lots. G. Totman: Yes, but to put them into one you're changing a major subdivision so it has to go back to the Planning Board. What has happened around here is the developers bring it to the Planning Board and get a generalized feeling of the Planning Board. If I presented this formally like this, would you accept it? You get an opinion from the Planning Board. And then when you have your -- you're not having an auction on this? B. Brzostek: Yes. G. Totman: Okay. When you have your auction, you tell them it's subject to Planning Board approval. And after you have your auction, you might have sold four lots into one -- then you present it to us that way rather than going ahead and making all these changes afterwards. B. Brzostek: So is that the way you want it done then? We can schedule an auction, use this map or something very similar to it, see what people want. I mean, if somebody buys the whole thing -- G. Totman: Do you follow what I'm saying? B. Brzostek: --- we don't need it. G. Totman: Are you with me, George? G. Van Slyke: Yes, B. Brzostek: I'm not even saying I could even find 20 people that want chunks out on Durfee Road. I mean, you know, I've probably got a better chance of getting hit by lightning. 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1888 G. Van Slyke: Well, that would change the type of subdivision, too. B. Brzostek: I just thought if we could offer this in more bite-size pieces that people don't have to bite off the whole thing. Go do the auction. And then how long would that take if we did an auction in like September, then how long before we would be able to get approval on that? G. Totman: Well, if you did an auction in September, we meet the third Thursday of every month. B. Brzostek: Okay, G. Totman: We would take it up at the next meeting if you come to us. Usually you have to get it to us by -- the book says ten days, but if you get it to us by the Friday before our meeting, so it can be mailed to the Planning Board members -- you know, you might have sold four lots together, or three lots together, and then you come to us and say this is the way we sold it. And you announce -- rm not saying you have to do it that way. You can go through all the rigmarole -- B. Brzostek: No, I don't want to go through all the rigmarole . G. Totman: It will take you a couple, three months to do it this way. B. Brzostek: No, I don't want to do it that way. G. Van Slyke: Because if you sold two lots, and we did the division this way, then you'd have to have boundary changes and all that other stuff going on that would drive you nuts. G. Totmano. Yes. According to -- B. Brzostek: So if we have the auction in September -- I'm just trying to look for purchase -- G. Totman: I understand you have one of these. B. Brzostek: Yes, I think I do. G. Totman: You bought one, I know you did. B. Brzostek: Okay, If I got it. G. Totman: If you follow the major subdivision in here, it requires more than just this. B. Brzostek: 'Cause this guy's in a hurry because he's got to pay bills and everything, we had the auction tentatively scheduled for tonight, but I gave it to the people in Dryden. So we re-scheduled it again for like Tuesday the 22nd. We can get on the agenda now, right? Because by Tuesday it will be before your Thursday meeting, and then we'll know exactly what happened on Tuesday. G. Totman: Tuesday, the 22nd of September? B. Brzostek: Yes. Is your meeting the 24th? V. Travis: The third Thursday. G. Totman: The 17th. B. Brzostek: Oh, the 17th. V. Travis: Well, that takes you into October. B. Brzostek: But if we came to the meeting in October, and we said okay, we only found four people who want to buy the whole thing. That's much easier. G. Totman: Sure. 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 V. Travis: Well then it's then not a major subdivision. It takes six parcels. G. Van Slyke: So you don't have to then go through all the process of the public hearing. There might be a difference in -- G. Totman: Well, you know, depending on how many, on how big they are. But if we approve this, then you would have to sell it this way. B. Brzostek: Well, you could. But you could always double them up. G. Totman: Well, yes. One guy buys two, but in order to put them together to make one lot out of them, it's bureaucratic -- but he still has to come back to the Planning Board and get it approved. B. Brzostek: Right. What's the likelihood that that wouldn't be approved if there's only four or five or six buyers now of that whole 116 acres? G. Van Slyke: You mean you'd sell all the property? B. Brzostek: Yes. But say we only had four or five different people that bought all of it. G. Van Slyke: It wouldn't matter to us. G. Totman: Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be hard to get along with . I'm trying to make It easier for you. B. Brzostek: Oh, I like easy things. I'm Polish -- I like easy things. G. Totman: I see it much more complicated doing it this way -- for you. B. Brzostek: Okay. But I mean as far as closings, if we come to the meeting in October then, would we be able to close these by the end of the year for the guy? If we knew at the next meeting that we only got four people to buy the thing. G. Totman: Sure. You'll do it quicker that way than you will this way. Let me put it this way. Right now, I'm sure the Planning Board is going to say we're going to need the Long-Form SEAR. It's a major subdivision. There's some wet areas in there. B. Brzostek: What's the difference between the Long Form and the Short Form, or we don't have to go through the rigmarole? How many lots is that? G. Totman: Well, it's not so much the lots. Well -- maybe if you did it in four parcels, four or five, because there's so much land to one parcel, probably a Short Form would be fine. But that land isn't all dry up there . B. Brzostek: Nobody ever said it was. G. Totman: And so there's some -- I'll tell you, if you were bringing this into the town that I work in, they would require you to bring soil maps in to show what the soil's like, and how much land -- where the wetland is -- B. Brzostek: Which town is that? G. Totman: The Town of Lansing. B. Brzostek: Oh yes, we don't even go that direction. G. Totman: It would be very different. And I think in most of the places you'd go to they would require more than what you gave us here. I think you know what. But, anyway, we don't want to be difficult. We probably would, after we get all the necessary paperwork, wouldn't have that much trouble 3 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 19M passing this. But we would look at it tonight and say, well, by the nature of this we're going to need a Long-Form SEAR That would mean you would come back on the 17th of September. Then we would set a Public Hearing for October, and probably you might get it passed in October or November doing it this way. If you sell it and announce up front that it's contingent upon Planning Board approval, you've met with the Planning Board -- B. Brzostek: I've already got that sort of in the ad already. G. Totman: And, then, these people buy the land. They have to put up front money so the owner can get some money up front. B. Brzostek: But see, it doesn't get -- even this gets held in escrow until you close. G. Totman: But he knows he's got it. B. Brzostek: But you've got to give it back, see, if you don't approve it. G. Totman: What I'm saying -- if these are made larger lots, all the more reason we should approve it. So I don't see any problem with the approval. B. Brzostek: He had nice little -- lots of road frontage, other than those little ones off the north side. G. Totman: The other lots are pretty good, but I can't imagine what anybody would do with a 1600- foot lot that's only 150 feet wide. They can have a horse farm or something. B. Brzostek: Do you know how many there are out there like that? G. Totman: I haven't seen too many. B. Brzostek: You've never been in some of the counties I've been in. G. Totman: I've been on the Planning Board for 30 years. B. Brzostek: Every place is different. G. Totmaw Oh, yes, they are. B. Brzostek: We just need to get something, because this guy's got to cash out because he needs the money for other purposes. We'll go, we'll sit down, we'll see what they want to buy. G. Totman: I guess what I'm saying to you is he would be better off to wait. G. Van Slyke: Yes, I think so. You're offering it -- B. Brzostek: We just offer it by the parcel. Then we bid on it as a whole, and just let them shop 'til they drop until the highest bidder -- G. Totman: We've done it before with Glenn Munson, and Bobby Walpole. That's the way they've always done it because they don't know who is going to buy what. So if we approve it this way, B. Brzostek: You got to sell it that way. G. Totman: Or, if you sell it differently, you're going to do the same thing. Then each individual buyer has got to come in and get it subdivided. B. Brzostek: We only do it this way because, well, I had a farm one time over by Clyde where there's just nobody buying farms, not like they used to. I had 20 people bidding against the farmer because they wanted one of the 20 lots, but as it was, the farmer won the battle. But these people were willing to pay five, six, seven-thousand dollars for a lot. So if he wants the whole thing, he's got to be willing to pay that now. But on his own, he would have only paid half of what he paid for because there's nobody 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 to push them up . That's the problem with land right now. There's just a lot of it out there and there's a lot of people that want it. That's fine. That's fine with me . Doesn't matter to me. I'm just trying to help this guy out. I just helped those people over in Dryden. That's my job. Just trying to help them out. G. Totman: No, your job is to make money. You're just like all the rest of us. (Idle unrelated chit-chat ensues - not transcribed.) G. Totman: Well, do you two guys have anything more to say or ask? B. Brzostek: So we'll have the auction on the 22nd. We'll get on the agenda for October -- V. Travis: Just one point. If you do end up selling more than six parcels that night, you then have a major subdivision. And then we've got to go through the public hearing and the Long Form, and the -- B. Brzostek: So six pieces is the number. Six or less. . . V. Travis: Now I can't find my definition. G. Totman: I think it's five. B. Brzostek: Well, five is good because the house is the house and it's not much of a house anyway. The house and some land is worth what the house and land is worth. All that other land doesn't add any value to that house in that little chunk, you know what I mean . G. Van Slyke: Right. B. Brzostek: Because there's a tenant in there . He's been in there 20 years you know what I mean? It's like his castle, but it's really -- it's like any of those cars sitting in the parking lot -- they're worth more than the house is worth . It's just that maybe somebody else can make some use of some of the land. So if we do three pieces, or three pieces on one side of the road, two pieces on the other, or something like that, nobody really cares. V. Travis: I think if it's six or more -- I was just reading it and I can't find it. B. Brzostek: That's all I'd want to know. V. Travis: Subdivision, Major, Page 22 it says. That's what you were looking at, George. B. Brzostek: I don't know if the traffic count is 20 cars up and down Durfee Road every day. I don't know how I'd find 20 people to buy 20 pieces. V. Travis: I drove over in there today and, yes, there were cars over in there . (More Brzostek sales spin re Florida - not transcribed.) B. Brzostek: All I have is this little bitty sheet; I don't have a big book. Article 2 . G. Totman: Oh, you didn't get the whole book. B. Brzostek: No, I just have Article 2 . G. Totman: Well, let me put it this way. Our Planning Board -- B. Brzostek: Six or more lots it says -- major subdivision. G. Totman: What page number are you on? B. Brzostek: Page 9. 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 G. Totman: Isn't that awful? You're right, There it is. By the nature of what I read about your business, you've been to a lot more sophisticated Planning Boards than we are , B. Brzostek: We very rarely go, believe it or not. G. Totman: Is that right? B. Brzostek: Yes, This is actually the first one I've ever been to. I wouldn't like to you. G. Totman: Okay. I'll take your word. But we aren't known to be -- we just want to do it sort of by the book, but we're not known to be picayune and put people through the hoops just because we want them to think we have big heads or anything like that. We want to make sure it's done right, it's done according to the hoops so that somebody can't come back and say you didn't follow the book or something like that, And so whatever you read in that is basically what we have to do. And we don't do anything else . B. Brzostek: We'll go have his auction. We'll draw it up on the map and they can pick out whatever they want -- G. Totman: But you've got to make sure that you tell them when they buy it that it's subject to Planning Board approval. B. Brzostek: It's already in the ad, G. Totman: Okay. You say the auction is the 22nd? B. Brzostek: That's the reason I put subject to subdivision town approval -- same difference. Thanks. Just trying to help out old Harry there, Harry doesn't live there. He lives in Oswego. This guys rented this thing for 20 years or so, V. Travis: You're saying the guy who's renting can't afford to buy it. B. Brzostek: Yes. Do we have to pay all that to do that, or no? G. Totman: To answer your question about that, you've already paid it because I've got a note here that you paid, I'm not sure how they reimburse. My personal opinion would be no. Because you're not selling that many lots. He's paid according to our rules $50 up front and $20 for each lot. I think that's what he paid. B. Brzostek: $450. G. Totman: Yes. And if he breaks it down and only sells 15 or 20 lots, I'd think there would be a reimbursement -- or 5 or 10 lots instead of 20. B. Brzostek: It's probably going to be only five or six pieces at the most, It's six or more, so I've got to try to keep it at five, V. Travis: Yes. G. Totman: Then it changes the price . So -- V. Travis: The acreage is 116. G. Totman: So if -- see, you're going to have that on the 17th -- B. Brzostek: No, on the 22nd. G. Totman: On the 22nd. So it would be good if you would make a contact right afterwards to let us know how you did it so that -- 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 B. Brzostek: Well, yes, because we'll have lots of time until the next meeting. G. Totman: So that we can maybe communicate back and forth to see what we need to have for that meeting so that -- B. Brzostek: They can draw in lines wherever they want to put them you know. It doesn't matter to me. G. Totman: My experience is -- let me put it this way. In my normal daily life I work for another town. And people like you, I come in and I prepare them -- I tell them I prepare them for the lion's den, for the Planning Board. And if they get eaten up in the den, I didn't do my job right. I didn't prepare you right. And what I mean about that is that after you get it sold, if you get with me, I'll try and make sure that you've got everything you need when you come to that meeting. Because if you're missing something, then it's another 30 days. B. Brzostek: Well, we'll make sure we have all that. I'd just like to sell it to one guy and then I wouldn't have to come see you anymore. G. Totman: Maybe some rich farmer will buy all of it. B. Brzostek: Well rich and farmer is an oxymoron, isn't it? G. Van Slyke: Here is a rich one, right here (Monica arrives at 8:39) . M. Carey: Yes, right. If I was rich I wouldn't be doing chores tonight, believe me . G. Totman: Okay. M. Carey: Sorry. Barn chores come first. B. Brzostek: So are you guys all through with me? G. Totman: Well, if you understand, you're satisfied, and you don't think you came in vain. B. Brzostek: I'll just be looking for my rebate though on that $450 when I bring you back five pieces. G. Totman: Okay. Anything in this world today is negotiable. (Long discussion of Brzostek sales, past and future .) G. Totman: Monica, we talked him into not applying for this subdivision now and to wait until after the auction so that he can understand what he was doing. M. Carey: Right. Sounds like a good idea. G. Totmaw Cecil (arrives at 8: 47) , the fellow that wanted to sell all those lots up on Durfee Road -- C. Twigg: Yes, G. Totman: He just left. C. Twigg: That was him out there? G. Totman: Because of the nature of the size of the lots and the way they were laid out, and after talking to him, it was pretty much determined that probably he wouldn't sell them that way anyway. Somebody might want to buy three or four of them together and things like that. Something similar to what Munson and Walpole used to do. They come in and tell us what they're going to do. They tell the people that we're going to sell these lots, one or two or three or combine them, or however you want to buy them, but they will be subject to Planning Board approval afterwards. That he's got a tentative 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 approval that if they were sold like this, if we did all the right things, they probably would approve it. But if they make each individual lot larger it just makes it that much more sure that theyre going to be approved. So he decided he would do it that way than try to go through with it tonight. CO Twigg: It really doesn't do much good to go through it tonight that way, would it? G. Totman: No. So he's going to come back to us after the sale . M. Carey. When is the sale? C. Twigg: Doesn't say when the auction was. G. Totman: The auction is the 22nd of September. M. Carey. After our next meeting, so it will be the October meeting. Approval of Minutes - 16 July 1998 Meeting G. Totman: The Agenda shows that at 8 o'clock we're going to approve the Minutes of the July meeting. It is now 8: 52. We have a quorum. Does anyone want to discuss the Minutes of the July meeting? C. Twigg: I read them, but I didn't bring them. G. Totman: Okay. Does anybody want to make a motion that we approve them, or reject them, or change them? V. Travis: I move their approval as submitted. M. Carey: I'll second it. G. Totman: Anybody against it? M. Carey. No. G. Totman: Passed. Review of Land Division Between Fern Newman & George Moore - Lick Street - TM # 36- 1 = 15 , 2 G. Totman: The next thing on the Agenda is the review of the land subdivision taking place between Fern Newman and George Moore on Lick Street, Tax Map No. 36- 1 - 15.2 . Are you familiar with that? M. Carey: Right down the road from me. G. Totman: Okay. Did you all get it in your packet? C. Twigg: No. V. Travis: No. We got nothing in our packet. CO Twigg: It was made mention of. M. Carey: The only thing we got in our packet was the Durfee Road , V. Travis: That's right. 8 . Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 19M G. Totman: The reason that this is going on is because somebody wants to buy a lot, and if they do buy the lot, it makes the one in back of it non-conforming. So they are adding the non-conforming lot to their property, the sellers, so they aren't creating a non-conforming lot. M. Carey. Oh, you mean they're going to sell that -- that back lot's going to go with -- G. Totman: Here's the folder. You know the parcel. You can explain it. J. Fitch: George, I received in my packet a post-it note -- did everybody get one? V. Travis: No. J. Pitch: She wrote here, "Joan, I am not sending out info on Newman/Moore as this item is just something I want them to be aware of. I don't think it requires any action on their part. Folder will be out. April" G. Totman: Okay, now that she said that, I, about a month ago, talked to Mark Gunn about this and I told him that as far as I was concerned it was nothing more than a one-lot subdivision and they could do it without coming to the Planning Board. It's making something that's illegal now, legal. So I'm not sure why it really got on the Agenda, but I think probably sometimes when people go to lawyers, lawyers like to see something in the Minutes of meetings to say that whatever they did was a legal transaction . So as far as I'm concerned, unless anybody's got anything else to say about it, we say we've looked this situation over and it does not require Planning Board action. C. Twigg: That's right. They can do one without our approval. M. Carey. Right. But I'm trying to think, it says on the east side of the road frontage, and the Newmans are going to retain on the western part of the property on Lick Street. I mean that's only a wet field there beyond George Moore's house -- there's no east or west on that. G. Totman: There's an east and west to anything. North, south , east, west. M. Carey, The east is on Lick Street, the west is abutting somebody else, the north is abutting that lady that bought Tom Cornelius' place, and the south is abutting -- G. Totman: But this lot is inbetween all of those. M. Carey. Right. But I would think it would have to connect with the Stevens Road property because it's behind both of those roads. But I don't see where George is going to have -- if he's going to have the whole Lick Street property -- G. Totman: Well, I can get the tax map out. The way I understood it, one of these owners -- they are selling some land and they are going to have like a boundary change and put it in part of theirs so they are making one lot larger because of this piece of land. BL Carey. See, since the folks died I don't know who owns what. But these Newmans, I thought, owned that chunk of land down on Stevens Road that's right next to our land. And then I thought they owned the piece -- G. Van Slyke: I can't tell here. C. Twigg: I don't know why they would be coming in here unless he had some question about what they were doing. G. Totmaw Well, they were told basically that they didn't need one to begin with. AL Carey. I thought George owned the Lick Street property and Newmans owned the Stevens Road property. And then there's a piece way back out there that Searles was working. G. Van Slyke: So who's getting the extra piece? Is it Newman or Moore? 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1N8 M. Carey, Newman, I think is the one that wants to sell the property. G. Totman: What was that number again? M. Carey: 36- 1 - 15.2. G. Totman: It's this whole property here, then. This only shows one great big parcel. This shows 104 acres on 15.2. V. Travis: Is that a property line through there? G. Totman: Yes it is. It's right here. Okay, that's what it is. I know. They are selling part of this. I saw it once, because a guy stopped in and showed it to me . It was like a month ago. M. Carey, Okay. Show me . G. Totman: This is the Old Peruville Road. This is the property right here . This property upfront -- M. Carey, Where's Lick Street? G. Totman: Up here. K Carey: This is Stevens Road, this is our property right here. This is theirs and this is the field out back someplace out here. This is where that trailer is, and that's where the house is. J. Fitch: For the Minutes, do you want to use any directions, like to the north of this lot, or to the south or the west? M. Carey, Stevens Road -- G. Totman: 15. 13 is owned by who? M. Carey, I would say that's Newman's. G. Totman: Okay. This lot is directly M. Carey: behind the 15. 13. G. TOtman: directly south of 15. 2. and they are going to sell part of this up front here, and this is going to revert -- M. Carey. I mean there's enough road frontage on Lick Street to sell it, but -- G. Totman: I know from what they showed me that it's just a boundary change. M. Carey, Yes. V. Travis: By adding on, 15. 3 is going to take on some of 15.2? M. Carey: From what I understand from this letter, yes. 15.3 is going to take on some of 15.2. right? G. Van Slyke: The back side of it. M. Carey: Right. And this is the back side. G. Van Slyke: They are going to sell off the Lick Street side. 10 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 M. Carey: But they are not going to sell off the Stevens Road side. They must be selling off on the Lick Street side. See, there's ravines back in there too. I don't know how you'd cross over into it. V. Travis: Which lot is non-conforming as it presently exists? M. Carey: They are all confirming. G. Totman: By selling one off, it would make a lot in here non-conforming, so they are taking it over into their other property. I don't follow that. M. Carey. No, I don't understand that. V. Travis: That's even less logical. It's non-conforming because it's landlocked, is that why? G. Totman: Yes. You can't create a landlocked piece of land because you can't get a building permit on it. Okay. I'll try to get April to get us a better drawing so at least we can look at it next month to know what it is. Number one, it's only a one-lot subdivision. BL Carey: We need to make sure we're not going to landlock anything. G. Totman: Well, that's why they 're coming to us. Because they would have landlocked it if they hadn't of talked to me ahead of time . And I think Jim Henry is involved with it because I think he's the one that called me. M. Carey, It says Armstrong on that paperwork. Don Armstrong. G. Totman: Is it? Okay. Discussion on Cellular Tower Installations G. Totman: The reason I'm giving you these is the Town has passed a Cellular Tower Ordinance and they are going to have to come before the Planning Board for Site Plan Review. Probably you haven't read the Ordinance completely; I think I was the only one here the night the Town passed it. And the Ordinance that we gave them, which you all have a copy of, that George and I worked with, they accepted it in its entirety. As you will remember, there was a fellow here that was very eager to do all the work for us, and he was here the night of the meeting when they passed it, and he had the president of a company that he works with here with him, and they both agreed that it was a good Ordinance. Except for the fact that in there it stated about getting engineers to give their stamp of approval ahead of time, and the Ordinance says the Planning Board may require that. He wanted the Town Board to put in there they shall require that. And they didn't do it. CO Twigg: The attorney wanted that? G. Totman: No, not the attorney, Frank. Mark and I started meeting -- we only met once -- about making up an application for site plan review and going over some of the fees and stuff they charge. And he came over one night and we went over some things, but we decided we better get some more information, and we haven't got together since, and that was a couple of months ago. But at the Board meeting last week, he presented what I just gave you to the Town Board as to what the Site Plan Review Application should be like. And where I've got question marks is not what we decided that we should be doing. And if they are going to come to us for a Site Plan Review, we should really be the ones -- it's our job -- and I'll give Mark credit for going ahead and doing the work; but it's really our job to decide what we want them to give us. It also says in here that they shall have completed a Full Environmental Assessment Form Review. Well, it doesn't say anything, to my knowledge, in the Ordinance we gave that it requires a full one. It's just like when they come in for a subdivision, they give us the Short Form. And if we determine that it should be something more than the Short Form, then we tell them to come back next time with a Full Review. That's what the Short Forms are for as far as I'm concerned. So if somebody's going to buy two acres of land up on your farm, and in the middle of that two acres they're going to put up a cell tower, and there's nothing else around it, I think we should determine at that point whether it should be a Full Environmental Statement or not. That's my opinion . Now, if you 11 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 people want to do it the other way, that's fine. But I think we should talk about it. Do you want to change where it says "Completed SEAR (Full Environmental Assessment Form)" to "Completed SEAR"? M. Carey. Wouldn't we have to do a SEAR on this anyway? G. Totman: Yes, C. Twigg: Yes, you have to do the SEQR, but you don't have to do the full one. M. Carey. Right. G. Totman: My solution is cross off -- make it "Completed SEAR" and if it needs a full one, we can tell them it needs a full one. M. Carey, Right. But we've got to do a SEQR anyways, so -- G. Totman: Any action we take we have to do a SEQR on it. When you put up one of these things, you have to -- or they have to -- have FCC approval to put up a tower. So the next one down says "Copy of Federal Environmental Impact Statement." They aren't going to get FCC approval if they don't take care of all the Federal stuff. So do we really need that? M. Carey. Not if they are getting FCC approval. C. Twigg: What's that thing Prozio (?) is putting up up there? Is that a cell tower? G. Totman: I have no idea. C. Twigg: It's over in Cayuga County, G. Totman: Oh. It could be because they are looking over in that area. C. Twigg: They are putting one --- G. Totman: Well, we'll cross that one off. Does everybody agree to cross that one off? M. Carey. Yes. V. Travis. Yes. G. Totman: The next one down says a "Scale drawing of tax map parcel. . . " Tm not sure what that means because this is the tax map parcel. And it gives us -- if you tell us what the number is, it tells us how many feet and everything are on the parcel. Why should we require them to have somebody pay somebody else to draw up a scale of this when we've got it right on the tax map? That's my feelings. G. Van Slyke: Wait a minute. M. Carey, Should we just have a drawing of where all this stuff is going to be located? G. Van Slyke: Why don't you finish reading it? I think what the intent here is is a scale drawing of the parcel specifying the "location of the tower, the guying anchors, etc. , location of accessory buildings, access roads, parking areas, fences, gates, landscaping. . . " Okay. G. Totman: A drawing. G. Van Slyke: Would we even want to see something like this? G. Totman: Yes. The only thing I'm talking about is a scale. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Tm not sure. 12 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1888 C. Twigg: Well, to have a scale you're going to have to have some sort of a professional do it. It's going to cost you bucks. G. Totman: How about a sketch drawing? You know -- I draw this thing out and I tell you C. Twigg: Detailed description of boundaries -- at the bottom. Well, the next one is "detailed description of boundaries" which is going to have to be anyhow. G. Totman: Like lots of times on the back of an application it says do a sketch plan -- like you're going to put up a storage shed on your property. You do a sketch plan -- your house is here and this is going to be 20 feet away from your house, 10 feet away from the boundary lines, 25 feet from the rear lines -- that's a sketch plan to view. That you can do yourself. V. Travis: A couple of things, George. First of all, the people that are going to be making these applications are AT&T. Frontier Cellular, who have bucks to make a drawing. The other thing is, if it is not drawn to scale, they can lead us astray as to what location it is. G. Totman: Okay. Do you want to leave that in there then? C. Twigg: I don't see why you need it, but -- V. Travis: But Cecil, we just looked at this Newman and whomever here and we couldn't figure the darn thing out because their drawings were so poor that we couldn't figure out what was going on. I mean a scale drawing to me -- someone can take a ruler and say that one inch equals 100 feet and that's good enough for me. I don't think it pre-supposes an architect having done it, but that's different. G. Totman: Okay. You want to leave that in there then? G. Van Slyke: Sure. K Carey. We might as well. G. Totmaw Okay. Co Twigg: "Detailed description of boundaries." Now that would come under the same thing, wouldn't it. M. Carey: That would come under the scale. V. Travis: That's like you take it right off the deed just like Brzostek did with us tonight. I mean that was helpful to me ; you could figure better. C. Twigg: It would be on this drawing. G. Totman: Well, not a description. V. Travis: This is a verbal description, I think. G. Totman: See, the drawing is going to be like you pick up a tax map and you've got it on a piece of paper. Now you're going to have a scale drawing to show where it is. This detailed description of property is like lawyers do with deeds. . V. Travis: Right. G. Totman: I'm not sure I understand why we need that when we see the piece of property, we know it's going to be here, so many feet from this, and this, and this. Why do we need a complete detailed -- V. Travis: I don't see why we do. 13 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 M. Carey. Yes, because we'd have to have the outlay of the land anyway before we could even begin to look at the scale drawings. C. Twigg: "Detailed description of boundaries. " Does that mean what color they are? G. Totman: No, no. It's just like -- Cecil, you're a big real estate tycoon -- J. Fitch: A legal description they call it. G. Totman: When you sell a property, along with the deed is a detailed description. Like when you see these tax maps -- like those in the paper for back taxes or mortgage payments, it's a detailed description of the property. 'That's what I take that to mean. V. Travis: It's like this piece right here. Co Twigg: I don't think anybody -- I don't care, but I certainly don't need that when I look at it. G. Totman: They aren't even going to read it. You're going to look at the scale they give you and show you where it is -- C. Twigg: I don't even go through it when I buy a property -- I very seldom go through the detailed boundary description when I buy the property. G. Totman: Okay, we'll cross that one off. Names and addresses -- that's no problem. The next one down -- "Safety analysis by a qualified professional certifying the general public that electromagnetic radiation exposure does not exceed standard set by the FCC." M. Carey: But the FCC would have already ruled on this, right? G. Totman: I think so. I think cellular towers are a little more sensitive than a two- three-lot subdivision. M. Carey. Get rid of that safety analysis because they've already gone through the FCC on that I would think. How does everybody else feel? C. Twigg: That sounds good to me. G. Totman: George? Van? V. Travis: If that's the case. They have to be licensed by the FCC . M. Carey: We wouldn't know that anyway. G. Totmaw That's why they want to have it. . . I don't have any other problems with that part of it. But, see, did we talk about 16 and 17? C. Twigg: Any other requirements the Planning Board deems necessary. G. Totman: Number 16. K Carey: Doesn't that change with the wind, these engineers? G. Totman: I think it says in our thing that they got to be looked at every five years. V. Travis: Their application is going to have a name of a company representative, or whomever, who is our contact. Now whether he's a professional engineer or not is immaterial to us as long as the information is complete and accurate. G. Totman: Look at 17, then. 14 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 C. Twigg: I don't think we ought to get involved with this -- G. Totman: It's already been proven that these things do not emit radiation. M. Carey, But now, does the FCC inspect these things every so many years, too? They must have to, right? G. Totman: I don't know. I really don't know. There's been a lot of decisions come down lately that there's no danger with radiation. (Discussion on power lines affecting tree limb growth and the power company's cutting of the limbs back from the lines - not relevant -- not transcribed.) V. Travis: I don't think we need 16 or 17 . M. Carey. I don't think we need 16 or 17 either. It's foolish. G. Totman: Why don't you read the last part there just so that we all understand what's in there? M. Carey, Who's the professional consultant retained by the Town of Groton? V. Travis: If -- I think that's if. That just gives authority. M. Carey. Right. G. Totman: I don't see anything wrong with it. Well, if it's okay with you, I'll have this re-typed and give it to the -- I'll talk to Mark. He's put a lot of work into this. AL Carey: It's good. G. Totman: I just think -- I don't want to cause any problem between Mark and us, but Marrs green, but is doing a good job . But I just feel that if they have to come to us for a Site Plan Review, we should be telling them what we want, because some of the things that are here I really don't think are in the Ordinance that we passed. And I sort of agree with Cecil and Van -- because of the nature and sensitivity of the cell towers and the companies that are behind these -- Frontier Cellular, or whatever, they've got engineers and professional people working on these things so people like us can't pick them apart already. So we're really not going to cost them. We're not going to make them spend the dollars they wouldn't spend otherwise. V. Travis: And they are not going to come in with a sketch on the back of a brown paper bag. AL Carey. Right. V. Travis: That isn't going to happen with these companies. G. Totman: I mean it's so sensitive -- these things have got to work and they've got to work right. Anyway, so I'll do that. Over in Trumansburg, and I've been following that quite close because it's part of my line of work, and they've been going at it for way over a year now, and they've had lawsuits and public hearings, and trying to do all sorts of things. They started out they didn't want them to put them in certain places. Then they started putting heights on it, and the law definitely says that if it has to be 150 feet to get their signals, you've got to let them have 150 feet. See, we didn't put a height in ours because of that reason. Because if they can get the signal at 150 feet, they aren't going to spend all that money to put up 200 feet. It doesn't make any sense. But they've had all kinds of powerful engineers working on that one over in Trumansburg and it's still tied up in the courts. V. Travis: And it got stickier than all that, didn't it George? It turned out one of the people on the Planning Board was not a resident of the Town, and it was about like this Ken Star thing -- G. Totman: Well, what happened over there was people were so upset about it -- a member of the Planning Board moved across the road because he owned parcels on both sides of the road. One side was in another town. So he moved across the road and he voted for this thing. And then they got court action on that; he won the case. He won that. And I don't know the details. So I guess my 15 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 20 August 1998 feeling is after going through these gyrations, you can make this thing as stiff and tight as you want to, but if they want to put that up, and they are following the letter of the law that the government set, we don't have a chance of stopping them, So I just don't see why we should get all bent out of shape trying to make some of these rules that they can beat us in court on anyway, We have an Ordinance that was accepted, The Town Attorney looked it over. I'm satisfied with that. V. Travis: I read it through. I thought it was pretty reasonable. G. Totman: The Ordinance that we passed here -- in fact the people that were coming to our meetings who were supposedly technicians and that stuff, except that shall or may bit. That same Ordinance was passed by the Town of Lansing, and one of the lawyers for the Trumansburg outfit lives in the Town of Lansing and came to all the meetings over there, and the only thing she found wrong with it is she wanted to make it stiffer, But the very one she worked on in Trumansburg got thrown out of court. Is there anything else to come up before the Planning Board? Adjournment/Announcement G. Van Slyke: I move we adjourn . M. Carey: I'm sending in my resignation for the County Planning Federation Board, So the Town Board will be appointing somebody from this Board. G. Totman: George made a motion that we adjourn. V. Travis: I'll second it, G. Totman: At 9 :32, seconded by Van Travis. You got that? The meeting was adjourned at 9:32 p.m. Looe o E. Fitch Recording Secretary 16