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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1998-05-21 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING MINUTES Thursday, 21 May 1998 Board Members (*absent) Others Present George Totman , Chairman Mark Gunn, CEO Monica Carey Joan Fitch , Recording Secretary Sheldon Clark Al Thayer, Applicant *Verl Rankin Angela & Ray Brashear, Applicants Van Travis David Dann , Applicant *Cecil Twigg George Van Slyke The meeting was called to order at 8*00 p.m. by Chairman George Totman, G. Totman: We don't have the Minutes to approve at first tonight. Maybe we can get to the Minutes at the later part of the evening, `cause we just got them tonight. Al Thayer. Jr. - Minor Subdivision " Pleasant Valley Road - TM #36- 1 -66 G. Totman: The first thing on the Agenda is Al Thayer. And he's proposing a subdivision on Pleasant Valley Road . Have you all had a chance to look over what he's proposing? M. Carey: Can I ask the exact location of this? A. Thayer: If you come through 34 and come to the stop sign in Peruville , take a right. It's the whole first corner, from Stan Shockey's up to . . . V. Travis: To Colby? M. Carey: Is it on the same side as that horse farm? Or on the other side? A. Thayer: No , they're before you even get there . G. Totman: If you turn right by the horse farm where Chase's was - - I think it was Chase - - A. Thayer, Yes , it was Tom Chase. That's who I bought it from was Tom Chase. Tom Chase lives across the road and he owned this property on this side , too. There's 16 acres there. G. Totman: He use to be on the Planning Board a long time ago. Then what you're saying then is this is on the same side of the road as his house is? A. Thayer: That's Stan Shockey. Stan Shockey's got a house on that road , and Colby's is the next one up. This is where Shockey lives at 36152 -- Shockey's got a little house here and then there's a trailer and then there's another big house that sits out back going down toward downtown . M. Carey: So it would be right down in here , right? (Members and applicant gather around map, unable to hear conversation.) G. Totman: That side of the road there? It would be on the west side of the road . Okay. The lots are all large enough ; there's enough road frontage on all the lots . M. Carey: And it's in a Low Density zone. G. Totman: It's in the Low Density zone . There's neighbors across the road and on each side of it , north and south . 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 M. Carey: Is this one lot going to be like a flag lot? What's the dimensions? A. Thayer: There's 80 feet left there . M. Carey: 80 feet? G. Totman: Bruce didn't put that in there. A. Thayer: I see. I noticed that the other day, too. M. Carey: So from that 80 feet on up through is what you want to divide? A. Thayer: No, this isn't mine . This is Shockey's . But all this back here goes with it. M. Carey: Okay. G. Totman: The 80 feet is not yours then? A. Thayer: Yes , the 80 feet is mine -- so I can get access back into the woods. M. Carey: That's where it starts . G. Totman: And you own the land in back? A. Thayer, Yes. Because there's 16 acres there altogether. I'm keeping 80 feet so I can have an 80 feet right-of-way all the way back down through there. M. Carey: So you're not going to sell off this 80 feet and this 9 and 1 / 2 acres out back? A. Thayer: No . M. Carey: You're just going to do A, B , and C? A. Thayer: Yes . This is all woods . V. Travis: Could you just show us? (Mr. Thayer indicated on map . ) G. Van Slyke: Well, that would be all right because you could still develop that back there - - you've got enough there so if you wanted to build a road back there you could build a road . Let's see. You're only making - - M. Carey: Three lots , and they're all over two acres . G. Van Slyke: Would that be four? V. Travis: Well , it's four lots and they are all over two acres . Yes, the application says a total of four lots . Is the mobile home and the double-wide and the one single -family house what is on those pieces of property? A. Thayer: There's nothing on them yet. There's nothing there . G. Totman: He's tried to put something there and that's why he's here . A. Thayer: Yes. The trailer's supposed to go in next week. It's a single-wide . And the foundation 's already in the house . George did give me a permit for the house . G. Van Slyke: Is the house on C lot? A. Thayer: Yes . 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 V. Travis: And it's labeled , yes . A. Thayer, And this is going to be a new double-wide on this one . G. Totman: B? A. Thayer, On B will be a double-wide . A will be a single-wide. G. Totman: Potentially, they are all sold , right? A. Thayer. Yes . M. Carey: I don't see any problem with it. It meets all the requirements . G. Totman: George, would you please? Let me explain this . By New York State Law, before we approve any actions taken by a municipal body, we have to do a SEAR -- a State Environmental Review form. I don't know if you're familiar with those or not. I don't think you've ever subdivided land or not . A. Thayer, No . G. Totman: If it's an action by a board , different from the Zoning Officer, we have to do a State Environmental Review of the property. And I'm sure you must have heard about it, and not realizing it -- like , for example , Wal-Mart in Ithaca got turned down through the environmental review policy rather than by the City Council . The Planning Board put them through so much hassle they never did get through the environmental review thing. But it's the law. So what we do here , we go through the Short Form, and if we don't find anything that's negative to the environment or whatever, to the land , then we declare a positive dec, and that makes it legal . Because if we don't, then if somebody decides they don't like that subdivision, they can have it null and voided what we passed here because we didn ' t do the proper SEAR review. I have to explain that to new people because after we read this thing through you'll wonder what the hell are they trying to do to me now. But it's a form. It's a bureaucratic thing that we just have to do. A. Thayer: Like if it ends up being a wetlands or something like that? Or an aquifer. G. Totman: You listen to the questions that are being asked . George, please? G. Van Slyke: This is Part II of the Environmental Assessment. Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part 11 of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part H. Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Monica Carey, seconded by Van Travis, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration. G. Totman: Any other questions? G. Van Slyke: No . G. Totman: Let me pose the question -- we can approve this or disapprove it, or according to the Ordinance we can call for a public hearing, or we don't have to call for a public hearing. So I guess i f this was laid out next to your property, would you want to have some say in it? Or is it a natural land development that you don't really think that - - I mean, when you hold a public hearing, people come i n and say we don't like the development, but they really got to find something wrong with the development. Something like there's going to be adult entertainment next door, or there's a wetlands , or something like that. And here we know there's going to be three individual homes . So we have to decide , if we're going to approve it, do we approve it the way we see it, or do we hold a public hearing. G. Van Slyke: I move we approve it without a public hearing- 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 M. Carey: I'll second that motion . G. Totman: Any questions? A. Thayer: Just for everybody's benefit, I'd just like to tell you that I did spend about $ 15,000 for the dozers up in there because there's all brush. You couldn't walk through it. And we did spend about $ 15 , 000 just clearing all the brush out so we can make lawns , so I don't think anybody's unhappy with the way - - well, it looks a lot better now than it has in years. G. Totman: You're not going to move up there? A. Thayer: N o . G. Totman: With all your animals and stuff. A. Thayer: Thought about it. G. Totman: Okay. All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor) . Opposed? A. Thayer: Thank you very much. Have a good night now. David Dann - Special Permit for Auto Repair Shop - 12 Gulf Hill Road - 38-7- 12 G. Totman: Okay. This is something different. This is a guy who wants to -- the last guy that started a new business in McLean got in trouble. D. Dann: No, you don't have to worry about that. That's just down the street. I 'm a very quiet person . G. Totman: Are you all familiar with where this place is that he's talking about? I knew Van is . V. Travis: I'm familiar with the property, and I drove down Gulf Hill Road before coming over here . G. Totman: Do you know where it is , Monica? M. Carey: I drove down Gulf Hill Road , but I'm not sure - - D. Dann: First house on the right-hand side - - in back of the Post Office . G. Totman: There is a barn there now; are you going to tear that down? D. Dann: No , I'm using that. G. Totman: You're using that. Because it says on this thing "proposed new structure . " Okay. D. Dann: Not unless business really does good . G. Totman: Have you talked to any of the neighbors? D. Dann: Talked to all of them . G. Totman: Have you really? D. Dann: The one I was worried about was Brian Wilcox which everybody thinks my garage belongs to his house because it's so close . And I talked to Brian the week before and he said he has no problems with it. Bobby Vormwald and his girlfriend live across the street from me - - G. Totman: They live in the old church? 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 D. Dann: Yes . And they said they had no problem, and Mr. Carr said he didn't care; Mr. Bell said he didn't care. G. Totman: Well, that's his business . D. Dann: I know that. I buy a lot of parts from him . And Judy Frost, who owns property on the other side of the creek from me , said she had no problems with me . So - - G. Totman: Then there's Kings and Carlisles . D. Dann: Kings and Carlisles? George only told me I had to talk to the ones that was directly across the road from where the business was and on the sides of it. So I covered everybody around and on the back side . G. Totman: Okay. D. Dann: He said towards the Post Office I didn't have to worry about it. G. Totman: They are back this way a little bit. D. Dann: Well , Rick's right straight across from - - G. Totman: No , King and Carlisle are back this way a little bit. You know where they live . V. Travis: Carlisles are in the - - G. Totman: The old doctor's house . V. Travis: A B & B. G. Van Slyke: Yes , it's a bed and breakfast. G. Totman: What kind of an auto business are you talking about? D. Dann: Automotive repair. G. Totman: Not body work? D. Dann: No, just a repair shop. Been in business for 13 years in Cortland ; had to move last October into the building I'm in now. I'm not happy. There's really no good places in Cortland that I can afford to rent, so I decided that -- I talked to George Senter and he said it was zoned Commercial where I was. G. Totman: Yes , it is . D. Dann: Filled out the paperwork and , you know - - G. Totman: The only thing is , if we pass something and we get complaints , we've got to know what we passed and all that sort of thing. D. Dann: I realize that. G. Totman: My question is -- you've been in business for a few years doing this kind of work. Do you -- and you also mentioned that you use Ricky Bell a lot which means that you'll buy parts from Menwood (?) Auto . You don't keep cars around for parts? D. Dann: No. No. My purpose in business is to get them in there , get them out, get paid for them , unless I got somebody who doesn't pay me . 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 G. Totman: Contrary to what the good auto repairmen say, there is people who say they have to keep all their cars around for parts and stuff like that which , I know, is not a good excuse, but there is people that do that. And you've seen them, I'm sure. D. Dann: That's one thing I -- G. Totman: So one of the things that the Planning Board looks at when they pass something like that is , number one , the hours of operation, or the hours of operation where there is noise visible to the neighbors within 2 or 300 feet so it would keep them up late at night, or if they had babies or had to go to bed early. But yours is not an auto body/fender shop , so normally people wouldn't be hearing you operate . The other thing, very strongly, that we look at is do you have offstreet parking. And you do have there . How many cars, customer's cars would you expect at any one time? These are usually the things that are put into the permit. D. Dann: Anything from three to six cars , and I've got plenty of offroad parking. G. Totman: Okay, because what I'm saying is that these are the things that will go on the Special Permit that gets issued to you and , I don't know if you've met Mark Gunn or not, but he's supposed to throughout the year, but at least once a year, re-issue the permit . And he goes by what we put on there . So what we agree to here tonight is what he's going to look for when he comes to do the inspection . So I just like to be up front so that everybody knows . Anybody got any questions? M. Carey: We've discussed most of them. G. Totman: Probably if he's any good , and business is any good , he's probably going to want to add on to the garage . D. Dann: Right at the moment, moving my business to the house is going to be a part-time venture . G. Totman: To the house? D. Dann: Well, to my property and my land . It's not going to be a full-time job . G. Totman: You have another job? D. Dann: I'll check in on that tomorrow, it will be a yes or no tomorrow. I'm downsizing from myself, my brother, and another employee to just myself when it moves to the house if it gets approved . And my brother and I've got plans on going to work for somebody else if the money's good enough . Then, if my business picks up at the house , then I'll be there full time . But at this point in time it will be from a couple hours at night and on Saturdays . I'm up at 5 o'clock every morning to go to work, so I don't stay up very late at night. In fact, it's getting close to my bedtime right now. G. Totman: So the cars that you plan to have on the outside are cars waiting to be repaired . D. Dann: Yes . And I do not keep any junk cars around . I can tell you that right now. G. Totman: I don't think Van has set in on one of these before -- V. Travis: No , I haven't. G. Totman: And we have, to be very honest with you, and it's our position here to set the rules and make the things, and we set here with other people doing the same thing you're talking about, and they'll sit here and agree to all this sort of stuff, and then when the Zoning Officer goes out next year, they've got 15-20 cars setting out there and they've got 101 excuses why they need them, but it says here that he agreed to six. And the Minutes show that he agreed to six. So the only reason I'm -- D. Dann: Do I count my own personal cars that I drive? Or my customers' cars? G. Totman: No , no. Customers' cars . 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 D. Dann: I've got four of my own personal vehicles . G. Totman: It's kind of hard to drive four cars . D. Dann: Well, I've got toys . G. Totman: No, we're talking about customers' cars -- related to the business that you're talking about. And so you might say we've been beaten a few times . And , in fact, we've got a couple pending right now that are still - - you know, they give us the devil because we make the rules , and then we don ' t enforce them or whatever. That's the only reason that I'm - - and I 'm not trying to get on your case. So if we set a limit - - and he said he thinks the possibility might be up to six cars that he might have sitting along the garage. Now, you didn't put down here where you were going to park the cars . D. Dann: The two-bay garage - - the one bay is hardly small enough to park anything in, so G. Totman: No, I mean on the outside . D. Dann: Outside where you come in, just as you come in -- this is Wilcox, here's the garage. The bay here is what I'm using, and then the cars will be pulled in at an angle here . G. Totman: So that if the Enforcement Officer comes around and looks to see if you're following the rules , in the front of the garage - - the doors are in front, aren't they? D. Dann: Yes. I'm only using the one door which there isn't a door on it. G. Totman: So these things you got here -- D. Dann: That's just the driveway. G. Totman: This is the drive . D. Dann: Yes . G. Totman: And the cars will be parked through here like this? D. Dann: Yes . At an angle probably. G. Totman: Well, okay, but in there and there won't be grass growing up through them or anything like that? D. Dann: No. I'm working on getting the driveway blacktopped . G. Totman: Well, what I meant by grass is by sitting there six months or a year. D. Dann: No . G. Totman: Okay. So you feel that if this was approved , and we put a limit up to six cars parked in an orderly fashion on the south side of your property in front of the garage -- anybody else got anything? I don't want to steal the show or anything. S. Clark: You're doing great. Don't stop . V. Travis: I think that's the issue - - the parking. D. Dann: Like I said , there'll be very seldom that you'll see six customers' cars there . G. Totman: All right, when do you normally work on these cars? You only work on them on the inside , anyway, don't you? So you're not going to be revving the engines up at 8 or 9 o'clock at night or anything like that? 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 D. Dann: No . G. Totman: So if we set a limit saying like , and I'm just using this out of the sky -- like after 8 o'clock at night there'll be no visible noise in the neighborhood from your operation . D. Dann: No. The neighbors got noise , though. When my windows are open. G. Totman: Who's that? D. Dann: Down on the corner. V. Travis: Yes, they got noise when your windows are closed . D. Dann: Yes , they do . S. Clark: Who's that? V. Travis: Sirens . G. Van Slyke: They have noise? Every time I've been there they only have two cars there . V. Travis: That's true , but they still have noise . D. Dann: They've got that drum beat that drives you crazy, it really does . V. Travis: My wife owns Patchwork & Pies . And you can be in there , and there's the shed which is a buffer between on the Church Street side, and inside that store the throb is just like you had a bad headache. The bass is turned up so loud. You know how you hear a kid with a car that has the bass turned up and all you can hear is the booming before they come up the road? G. Van Slyke: The big boomers on the back. D. Dann: That's what you hear down there . G. Totman: Okay. M. Carey: What are we going to set for hours of operation? G. Van Slyke: You said to begin with you wanted - - D. Dann: It's going to be part-time and will probably be between 5: 30 and 9:30 at night at the latest. G. Totman: Well , we're talking about noise that's visible so that it would affect the neighbors and their houses . D. Dann: No , it won't affect the neighbors in their houses . G. Totman: Like what we're saying is , after 8 o'clock at night, nobody should complain if they're sitting in their house , other than this drum-drum. Now the hours -- we're talking about audible noise that would affect immediate neighbors - - nothing after 8 o'clock at night. Now that doesn't mean that he can't work until midnight on the cars, but sometimes -- and I'm not saying that you'll do it -- but sometimes they get these cars out and they've worked on them awhile , and they get them outside and vroom , vroom, vroom to see how many pistons or whatever kicking or clicking -- they call them tappets or whatever. But that's what we're talking about. Anything else you guys can think of or whatever? M. Carey: No excessive lighting to bother the neighbors . 8 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 V. Travis: What about disposal of junk parts? D. Dann: I have a scrap buy come pick my scrap up every two weeks; if I get a lot of it, I call him and he comes once a week. My waste oil I have a guy come pick it up and he burns it in his waste o i 1 furnace , and my antifreeze I have it recycled . G. Totman: Okay? V. Travis: Yes . G. Totman: George? G. Van Slyke: Okay, here we go. Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part H of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part II. Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Member Sheldon Clark , seconded by Member Van Travis, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration. G. Totman: What action do you want to take from this point? I don't have to repeat all the things I said the first time . Same thing applies . M. Carey: Well, as long as he's talked to all the neighbors , I don't see where we really need a public hearing. G. Totman: I guess it's important to let the record and the Minutes show that he has made all of the adjacent neighbors aware of what he's applying for tonight, and nobody showed up in protest. Did you talk to Elaine or Rick? D. Dann: Rick. I talked to the boss. G. Totman: Well, Elaine's the boss. Okay. G. Van Slyke: I move we approve the Special Permit with the restrictions as noted and waive the public hearing. M. Carey: I'll second that. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) Opposed? Now, if you want to put up a sign , you've got to come to Mark. That's a separate deal than this . D. Dann: I already know this , too . It's no different here than it is in Cortlandville or the Village of Homer. G. Totman: Wait a minute now. I beg to differ with you . If you had done this same type of thing in Cortlandville - - D. Dann: I've done it in Cortlandville and I did it in Homer. G. Totman: You say there's no difference between here and Cortlandville? D. Dann: You guys are a lot more lax than those guys are. M. Carey: And they also had a quorum right at 8 o'clock. D. Dann: Yes , everybody's there way before the time. G. Totman: They are much more in detail. Okay, I guess that's it. 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 D. Dann: Okay, I'll be getting in touch with you Mark on the sign . G. Totman: So we're all done with you . D. Dann: So how much does it cost for a permit for a sign? All I was going to do was put it on the front of the garage . M. Gunn: I think it's 15 bucks . G. Totman: They didn't put it in the Ordinance because they change it from time to time and they' d have to change the whole Ordinance. And it used to depend on the size of the sign, too . D. Dann: Thank you , everybody. Ray Brashear - Minor Subdivision - Sovocool Hill & Durfee Road (Not on Agenda) - TM # 24- 1-6 G. Totman: Okay, are you ready? R. Brashear: On my subdivision on Sovocool Hill and Durfee Road , I had three lots on Durfee - - G. Totman: George, he just come in early tonight before you got here and asked if he could talk to us because he's got a buyer that wants to do a little bit different than what we approved . I just want to check to make sure your map is just the same as my map, so you're not pulling anything shrewd on me here . Same map , okay. So you want to add to this property right here? R. Brashear: Yes . I've got a young couple who wants to add on to make it up to the four acres instead of 1 . 38 . It's lot C . M. Carey: So basically it would be a boundary change? R. Brashear: Yes . G. Totman: What he wants to do is add here and out and down like this. R. Brashear: Just to make four acres out of that lot instead of 1 . 38 . V. Travis: Are there improvements on that lot? R. Brashean Just a well. It's a wooded lot. I was just wondering. G. Totman: It's Parcel C on Durfee Road and he wants to extend that parcel so they'd have a four- acre lot. G. Van Slyke: This is still yours , still open land back in here , right? G. Totman: This is just a boundary change . R. Brashear: So if it does go through , should I get approval just for a boundary change like this? G. Van Slyke: How do you want to develop it? It's not our -- it's what you want to do. Are you interested in keeping this little chunk? Have you given that piece out? G. Totman: I guess what George is getting at is you don't want to get approval here now because if they don't want to buy that off of you, then it's null and void . It's no big deal to do it -- it's nothing but a boundary change for them, so if they want to buy the next one, come in and make out the paperwork and we can probably even do it without you coming in as long as we know what you're talking about. G. Van Slyke: This is just a boundary change, and you're not going to landlock any of this back in here , right? 10 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 R. Brashear: N o . G. Van Slyke: Because you've still got frontage - - 400 there -- you've got plenty, so you're not going to landlock any of that. R. Brashear: A minor subdivision , is it four lots or five? M. Carey: Minor is four. Five or more , I believe , is a major. G. Van Slyke: Check it while you've got it right there . R. Brashear: Do you want this , George? G. Totman: Yes , I want to put it in the folder. R. Brashear: I've got one more question on here. On the east of this is Portzline sold to a Shaw, I think. At one time , the old Durfee Road ran all the way through this land here, through Portzline and down here back to Sovocool . The surveyor over here says that the owner on the line to the west, that would be me, says Groton abandoned this in 1985, this road . I'm wondering if I got this place for sale right here if it would screw up the deal. To me , that belongs to her. G. Van Slyke: Well , they have abandoned the road , right? R. Brashear: He put on his map G. Totman: This road is no longer here, so it's now all one big plot. G. Van Slyke: So is this . G. Totman: Yes , so is this. R. Brashear: And the road ran through this property to the east. And he includes subject to rights over the abandoned highway. G. Totman: If the Town has officially abandoned it, it reverted back to the property owners . That' s the way we've always - - R. Brashear: Actually, I think this was done in '47 . That's all I have . G. Van Slyke: So we ought to have a motion then, don't we, about the boundary change? G. Totman: Well , you've got to do a little more than that. This is a subdivision that we approved in 1994, and we did a SEAR review on it in 1994 , because I watched him smile when I was going through all that jargon because I did the same thing with him back then. And you've got to decide whether that SEAR was good enough to use tonight without doing another one, because there's been no changes in the land environment or anything like that. So you'd have to make a motion that the SEAR that was done in 694 still prevails and that's why you're not doing another one , because it is an action of the Planning Board . After you do that, then you can make a motion to approve -- but you've got to make a motion -- G. Van Slyke: But it hasn't changed , has it? G. Totman: You've got to make a motion that you agree that it's a boundary change and after you do that, you make a motion to approve the boundary change . Do you follow what I'm saying? S. Clark: I make a motion that we make the boundary change on this . G. Van Slyke: I'll second it. 11 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) Now, how about the SEAR; do you want to do a new SEAR or do you want to accept the one we did before? S. Clark: I move that we accept the one we did before. G. Totman: You made a motion: Monica, you seconded it. And everybody agreed . And now a motion to approve the boundary change . M. Carey: I'll make a motion to approve the boundary change . V. Travis: Second . J. Fitch: I thought that was the first motion by Sheldon . G. Totmaw He made a motion to call it a boundary change instead of a subdivision . J. Fitch: Thank you . G. Totman: Any other questions? J. Fitch: You need a vote. G. Totman: Everybody's in favor. V. Travis: Aye . Report on Planning Federation Workshop - 30 April 1998 M. Carey: We need to show in the Minutes that George and I went to a planning session. G. Totman: Why don't you report on that, tell what it was for, who sponsored it - - M. Carey: That was a month ago . I can't remember all that. V. Travis: On Site Plan Review, right? M. Carey: A little bit of everything. V. Travis: I wasn 't available . G. Van Slyke: Just the three of us. G. Totman: What one did we have both full boards at? V. Travis: The nudie thing. G. Totman: Okay, because I went to both of them. Okay, Monica. M. Carey: The Tompkins County Planning Federation Board that I sit on put on this seminar for basic Site Plan Review. A lawyer got up and spoke on getting on a board and some of the responsibilities of being on a board . They had a panel there that discussed how their boards all interact; that was kind of interesting. It sounded like our Board was the only Board that talks to each other Board in our Town. In other towns , the boards don't talk to one another. They don't even know who's on the other boards. I thought that was kind of interesting. We all know who's on what boards around here. G. Van Slyke: The last one was where the area has no zoning whatsoever and they are trying to get zoning and what they are going through to try to do that. I think it's Enfield . That was a wild situation . 12 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 G. Totman: I think it was interesting there , because -- in my opinion -- it was one of the poorer seminars that I ever went to . G. Van Slyke: I really wasn't that impressed by it either, but I kind of thought we didn't need to have that lawyer stand up there and tell us what it means to be a planning board member. He could have taken his notes, handed them out, and let us read them. G. Totman: Compared to the seminars like Van went to in New York City, where they delve more into what you can and cannot do and what's legal and what isn't legal and all that sort of thing, this one that was done in Ithaca that Monica Is talking about, the lawyer got up and talked for 20 minutes . The people from Danby who sat at our table came to learn about planning and zoning. And what they really did was -- they had a case from the Town of Ithaca and they probably spent about 45 minutes telling how they did a Site Plan Review on a 600 square foot observation tower that Ithaca College wanted to put in and how they checked for endangered species , and it took about a year to go through this Site Plan Review on this tower. And they were telling what a good job they did to make sure they didn't make any mistakes . And when they got all done -- and I wish I could remember the guy from Enfield's name because he did a real professional presentation of how they're trying to get something in Enfield to try to control some kind of growth over there -- and it's been a real cantankerous thing over there - - but when this guy from Ithaca got all done , very politely the guy from Enfield said , "It was a nice presentation you put on, but now I can see why the people in Enfield don't want Site Plan Review. " He did it in a nice way, but what he was saying was -- if you're making people go through all this stuff for a 600 square foot building, which is not very big, it's no wonder the people don't want us to put it in over here . And that's the same thing that's happening now between the Planning Board in the Town of Lansing and the Town Board; they're fighting like crazy. Just like we did here -- the Town Board took out the Site Plan Review and put most of it in the hands of the Code Enforcement Officer , and what they felt was really important, they kept themselves like the Town of Dryden does . Because of the nature of what they've been seeing going on in Ithaca, the Town of Ithaca, City of Ithaca, and the Village of Lansing, where the Planning Board is stopping things through their SEQR reviews and going for the Long Form, and the EISs and all that, they are throwing these projects out before they ever get to the elected bodies. It's getting to be a real problem with this SEQR thing. V. Travis: How does Dryden handle it? The Town Board serves as the ZBA there? As the Planning Board? G. Totmam No , they have a Planning Board that does everything that we do except Site Plan Review. But the Site Plan Review is done by the Town Board . They have a ZBA just like we do here , but the Site Plan Review is strictly done by the elected officials . And I guess I'm not against that idea in most cases . So we've taken care of that. Discussion - Cellular Tower - Proposed Ordinance G. Totman: At our last meeting, we decided we would handle the cellular tower ordinance the same was that we did the adult entertainment thing. We decided that a couple of us could work on Tuesday and present a draft to the rest of the Planning Board on what the committee did . We met -- George and me. And that same day, Fran Casullo was in and I gave him a typed-up copy, and also sent a copy to each of you Board members . We got no negative responses , so we need to officially pass it tonight. M. Carey: I make a motion that we approve the proposed Cell Tower Amendment for presentation to the Town Board . V. Travis: I'll second that. G. Totman: We have a motion and a second . Everybody in favor? (All Board members present indicated they were in favor. ) 13 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 Discussion - Adult Entertainment G. Totman: You've all asked where we stand on the adult entertainment thing. Where are we on that? M. Carey: Yes . I take it they didn't apply for a Site Plan Review. G. Van Slyke: No, they appealed . Have they? They said they were going to. In the paper they said that . M. Carey: But have we heard whether they have? V. Travis: I haven't heard . M. Carey: So can they continue doing business without coming to us for a Site Plan Review? How many days do they have before they have to come to us for a Site Plan Review? G. Van Slyke: It wasn't in the Judge's decision was it? V. Travis: Well, doesn't the Town have to serve notice on them? M. Carey: Is that what it is? V. Travis: I'm just going from what I've heard . " . . . Counsel for the Respondent to submit an order upon notice to opposing counsel within 60 days of the date of this Decision . " Now, the Town is the Respondent. G. Totman: Before they can pass the law, they have to come up with a study. And I think I explained it to you people once that I convinced the Town Board , or suggested it to them and the lawyer bought it, and he was going to talk with some other attorney, and instead of turning it over to the Planning Board to do, to have him do it because it's a legality and if it wasn't done right it could be contested and the whole Ordinance could be thrown out. In the meantime , I have been in contact, quite a few times , with Mr. Casullo . He has been in contact with Mr. Perkins and Mr. John from the office of Thaler & Thaler in Ithaca, and they were all set to have a joint meeting with the four of us about three weeks ago, but Mr. Perkins from Dryden went off on a different track. And he talked the Town Board in Dryden to hire somebody to do the study from Albany who does these kinds of studies for towns all over the State, and it would cost $2500 for each town. So if he did a joint study, it would be $7500. They way we looked at it and I looked at it, and I know the people in Lansing looked at, and the people in Groton said , hey, if he's doing a study, why does three different towns have to pay him for the same study when it's really going to be about the same thing? So the Town of Groton and the Town of Lansing decided forget it, we'll do our own. So I have gotten some studies together and given them to Fran (Casullo) ; in fact, I mailed some over to him today, and through the nature of my job I have been working very closely with the Town Attorney in Lansing. They passed the study they did there last night, and I forwarded that also to Fran . He's thanked me profusely for working with him. So I would believe that Fran would be coming up with a study by the next meeting. Because, in fact he faxed me some copies back and forth to read and send back to him, and I thought that was great. That's the way it should be. To answer your question, that's the best I could tell you . To the best of my knowledge , they're taking the Ordinance that we presented to them and not taking it in its entirety, but are changing clerical , technical things like that. But the substance stays the same from the one we gave them. V. Travis: Did the one we gave them, and I have a copy of it but I need to read it more carefully , give them the authority that has essentially been granted by the Court of Appeals to take and shut down those adult entertainment businesses that are presently in existence but do not comply with the law? G. Van Slyke: You can't V. Travis: That's not what they have done in five other places in New York State , and that is what they are presently doing in New York City. There is no grandfathering for these businesses. And in New York City they are going door-to-door and serving notice on them and giving them one year to move to the approved territories . Now you can't say they can't exist. You can't deny them their 14 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 Constitutional right to have that business , but you can specify where that business will exist within your municipality. G. Van Slyke: I think we've got to clarify something here . When we wrote that Ordinance , we wrote it because we knew you can't refuse them a place somewhere . You have to give them a place. V. Travis: Absolutely right. G. Van Slyke: The whole point is now, we're kind of in limbo right now because what George is talking about here is we're off the line - - we're on what our Ordinance is . And what we have presented to the Board and what they were going to do with it -- within their moratorium, period . I think what Monica's question was what is happening as far as them coming back to us to get the Site Plan Review. Because if it comes back to us for Site Plan Review, we're going to have to look at them not from the type of entertainment that they've got, but whether or not they are an eating and drinking establishment. M. Carey: Right. I mean , from what this Judge has already declared , it's an eating and drinking establishment; it has nothing to do with the entertainment, so where would our adult entertainment law come into effect in a situation like this? G. Van Slyke: See, this whole thing, this whole Decision has kind of put us in the position where if they come to us for a Site Plan Review -- they are going to come as an eating and drinking establishment. So that's the way you've got to be looking at them. V. Travis: Well, in our own ZBA, they essentially turned down the Appeal . G. Van Slyke: Turned down what Appeal? V. Travis: The second Appeal to the ZBA that was put forth by my wife . But essentially , it raised the question of whether or not it was an eating and drinking establishment as opposed to the other classification that is in the Ordinance which is theaters , bowling alleys , and other places of entertainment. And the ZBA refused to change their initial ruling that it was an eating and drinking establishment . And all the Judge is saying in his is that the ZBA said it's an eating and drinking establishment. He didn't investigate that point. G. Totman: He just agreed with them. V. Travis: Yes, he said you have declared it that and, therefore , based upon that, it has to have a Site Plan Review and it has to have a Special Permit, M. Carey: Right. And so when it comes before us, it's going to come before us as an eating and drinking establishment. G. Van Slyke: Whether we've got an Ordinance intact, or whether we've got anything written in the Ordinance that says that we can do something about these places , we're stuck. We're basically stuck. We're caught between a rock and a hard place here. M. Carey: Are we going to be able to do anything much? V. Travis: Well, I've heard one opinion , and it is just that and I don't know whether it is legally correct or not, but that if they are served with a notice for a Site Plan Review, they will have to close down because they have opened and operated illegally. And that having done that with a moratorium in place, they are out of business . Now whether that is , in fact, correct, I am not certain . M. Carey: But the moratorium doesn't apply to them because they are considered an eating and drinking establishment. They are not considered adult entertainment. Right? V. Travis: If they are starting from scratch, it is within the jurisdiction of this Board then to determine whether or not they are an eating and drinking establishment, and you can hold a Public Hearing, and you can get testimony I can guarantee you, and they can go right through the whole route 15 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 again. In the same way, we could have had a Public Hearing as to whether or not Mr. Dann's business is , in fact, a repair business or whether it was something else . G. Totman: Van, I would like to agree with you, but I can't and I 'll tell you why. I would agree to hold a Site Plan Review if I thought we could do that. But from what the Town Attorney has said to me , was that the ZBA ruled that it was an eating and drinking establishment. The Judge agreed with them . So it's already been proven that they are an eating and drinking establishment. So if you looked at it that way, we can't go back and try not to prove what has already been in the Court on. V. Travis: I think we ought to wait until the Town acts upon - - G. Totman: Well, that's different. But let me go one point farther, because we discussed this way back - - I think it was in January, the month before you came because we talked about it when you came . Because in Section 341 it says the following table lists the Land Use Activities permitted in the Town of Groton. And it specifies the basic districts in which each activity is permitted . So bear that in mind . Now over on Section 302 , Land Use Activities , it says "Prohibited - - any Land Use Activity not in one of the two above expressly prohibited . " So what it's saying here is if we hold the Site Plan Review, we 're going against the Ordinance . Now it's a technicality, I admit. Because the law says you can't deny that type of activity somewheres in the Town. So what we decided way back then, and I think we'll have to make a motion to change it if we decide to have a Site Plan Review, is to change the motion we made back -- I think it was back in January - - to call it an eating and drinking establishment and hold a Site Plan Review. And I don't think we want to sit here , and I'm sure you don't, to agree that it's an eating and drinking establishment. So my feeling is and , in fact, I've told the Town Clerk what decision we made, so if it comes to a Site Plan Review -- and I told George at the time -- the Planning Board has agreed not to do it unless we're forced to by the Court. M. Carey: Basically, the Court has sent it to us as a drinking and eating establishment. How do we change the type of business if the Court has already said it's an eating and drinking establishment? G. Totman: Well, I'm citing what it says in here. I think the Town Board has to change what's in here. Otherwise, if we go ahead and do it, somebody can say to us - - M. Carey: If they declared it an eating and drinking establishment - - how can we change the type of land use that a Judge has already ruled on. G. Totman: I know we can get testimony from people that it isn't. What bothers me is why our Town hasn't looked at it the way we're looking at it. I don't understand it. I really don't understand it . Now I've got a couple more things before we leave. Roger Gleason per Robert Walpole - Lick Street - Part of TM # 121- 1-21 2 G. Totman: This afternoon , Bob Walpole came to me and he told me that he fully intended on coming last weekend , but he's had a little family problem this week and so he didn't really get around . One thing is a boundary change , and one is a one-lot subdivision on Roger Gleason's farm. And he wanted us to look at it. He says he can understand it if we didn't go any further with it, but he'd just like the Planning Board 's feelings - - do they call it a boundary change, do they call it a one-lot subdivision and is it something he thinks they could pass, and he would understand if they made him wait to the last meeting, or if they wanted to pass it tonight, he'd finish filling this thing out and we could sign it . So I'll show you what it is. It's all on Lick Street. And one of these he already thought we'd passed it once. G. Van Slyke: We did this . I thought we did this . G. Totman: What we did was we moved some lots over for him once to take care of -- see, if you look at this map , we moved it over a little bit. I can't remember why. M. Carey: These people wanted more land that -- G. Totman: You're talking about Roods wanted more land . 16 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 G. Van Slyke: Wait a minute . That's not on Lick Street. M. Carey: It's the corner of Lick Street and Clark Street, right? Is that the one you're talking about -- Clark Street Extension - - yes . G. Totman: I think Bobby was right. You're right - - we passed this before . M. Carey: That's that little right-of-way back there , right? G. Totmam That's this one right here. Yes, we did that. Right now, there's 200 feet here, and he wants to take 150 feet and make a 1 . 6-acre lot right there . It doesn't show that on there . But this is the way the tax map reads today. Okay? G. Van Slyke: Well, I don't see that. M. Carey: This is down next to who's that place that lives there on the bend, George? Who lives there? That older person. G. Van Slyke: I'm confused now. M. Carey: I am, too . G. Van Slyke: I thought we were talking about Lick Street that came - - hey,G. Totman: This is the same thing as this . M. Carey: Didn't we change this because Roger's son wanted - - G. Van Slyke: Somebody wanted the extra land . G. Totman: Rood's did . G. Van Slyke: So they changed the right-of-way - - we changed the little section coming back into this area here . Where's Gleason's house? G. Totman: That's way back up . This is Lick here . S. Clark: His son lives there . M. Carey: Yes, his son lives there someplace. I thought we did a boundary change here or something. G. Van Slyke: Yes. I thought he had -- his son lived on one of the parcels . G. Totman: See, this guy -- V. Travis: Did we do something up here since I've been on the Board? M. Carey: We did something here the last thing - - we did it for his son. G. Totman: Let me look at the Minutes . V. Travis: January? G. Totman: Nope. '97. M. Carey: It hasn't been that long. 17 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 G. Van Slyke: I thought he wanted -- where the heck was that? Okay. R J. Gleason . That's his son , right? Okay. I swear to God we did something with that. How much frontage has he got here? G. Totman: Right now, it's 200 feet from here to here. He wants to sell a lot right there and save that 50 feet -- G. Van Slyke: Otherwise , this will be landlocked . G. Totman: No , no . G. Van Slyke: Because he's got another flag lot here , so if he wanted to do something with this thing- - G. Totman: He's got land here , too . G. Van Slyke: Wait a minute . What's this line here for then? That don't make no sense. G. Totman: This is a copy of the tax map today. This is not something somebody drawed up. G. Van Slyke: I'm getting a headache already. Now didn't we do something so he could sell this piece? M. Carey: Well, that's why we changed our flag lot dimensions because of that piece there . G. Van Slyke: You made a flag lot for this piece that he sold . And I thought we did something for his son. Didn't his son want some extra land? G. Totman: Well, you're talking about this little piece - - originally, these lots were like this . G. Van Slyke: Okay, where's McMasters? Do you find McMasters on that? We got Murray - this is - - G. Totman: We're down here on the other one . G. Van Slyke: This is Old Stage here , right, and Lick Street? G. Totman: What I was getting at is I think we made this lot bigger at one time -- that's what that is there . M. Carey: I think we're boring our new Zoning Officer. G. Totman: Or, we can wait and have Bobby come in to the next meeting. How about saving that . We can talk about that all night. This one is simple . This guy wants to buy 7.6 acres of land out here . It's an all-wooded area. G. Van Slyke: Who's that guy? S. Clark: Bill Murray. G. Totman: There's no road frontage involved , he just wants to add more acreage . J. Fitch: Is this the same tax map number. G. Van Slyke: It's on the other side of the road . G. Totman: It's still the same tax map number. S. Clark: No . G. Totman: It's part of Roger Gleason's land . G. Van Slyke: That thing over there was down over here . 18 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting Minutes 21 May 1998 G. Totman: Well , Roger Gleason signed it. I'm sorry about that. It's still his farm . We don't consider the road as a problem when we talk about those things , but the tax map number stays the same . It's Parcel 21 . 6. He wants to buy 7. 6 acres out of the total parcel. Do you follow me? He wants to buy this at the rear of the parcel. M. Carey: So this is basically a boundary change? G. Totman: Yes . M. Carey: I see no problem with that. G. Totman: And we've already done a number of SEQRs on that property. So we just make a quick move and we'll take care of this one. He came into my office this afternoon at five minutes of four. He said he was sorry, but he had so much going on this week. G. Van Slyke: Okay, I think that we can do this via a boundary change . G. Totman: Make it in the form of a motion . G. Van Slyke : I make the motion that we allow grant the boundary change on Parcel 26. 1 as requested and accept the SEAR that was done previously. M. Carey: I second the motion . All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) G. Totman: George Van Slyke made a motion that we approve the Minutes of the last meeting, seconded by Sheldon Clark. All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) G. Totman: I adjourn the meeting at 9 : 47 p . m. M. Carey: I'll second it. an E . Fitch Recording Secretary 19