Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout1997-11-20 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING Thursday, 20 November 1997 Board Members (*absent) Others Present George Totman, Chairman Joan E . Fitch , Recording Secretary Monica Carey Marie Watson, Applicant Sheldon Clark Randy Allen , Applicant Verl Rankin *Van Travis Cecil Twigg George Van Slyke The meeting was called to order at 8 : 15 p.m. by Chairman George Totman. G. Totman: Okay, let's call the meeting to order. It's 8: 15 . The meeting was supposed to start at 8 p.m. Approval of Minutes - Meeting of October 16 , 1997 G. Totman: Has everybody read the minutes of the October meeting? (All members present acknowledged that they had read them. ) Do you have any corrections? Or do you want to make a motion to approve them? M. Carey: I make a motion to approve them . G. Van Slyke: I'll second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) The minutes are approved as submitted. Marie Watson - 43 Bossard Road - Site Plan Review - Tag Map # 22- 1 -23 . 2 G. Totman: We have before us a proposal for a lady to start a quilting operation in her house . This is Marie Watson . Do you have a copy of her application? She's here to answer your questions. Do you know these people? M. Watson: No, I don't. (Each Board member introduced themselves and stated where they lived. ) M. Carey: Where is this located? M. Watson: The first place on the left. It used to be a barn. G. Van Slyke : Tenney's house? M. Watson: Was. Ferris lives right up the road . G. Totman: There's no close neighbors? M. Watson: No. G. Totman: She's going to take a room in her building and make it so she can make quilts. M. Watson: I'm going to buy a machine that will quilt them. I've made arrangements with Patchwork & Pies. G. Totman : We have to do a SEAR George? 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 20 November 1997 Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part II of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part II. Therefore , it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Monica Carey, seconded by Cecil Twigg, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration. G. Totman: This business doesn't require any outside activity or noise . We usually go through the motions of setting up hours, etc . , but this particular operation you wouldn't know it was happening. G. Van Slyke: Are you going to put up a sign? M. Watson: What type of signs are allowed? G. Totman: Call Carol Marks and she can tell you . The Code Enforcement Officer is the one who will issue a sign permit. Any other questions? The normal procedure is that you follow the Ordinance and have a public hearing. C. Twigg: I move that we approve the Site Plan as submitted and waive the public hearing. M. Carey: I'll second that. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) Motion carried . Talk with Carol or George about the sign. M. Watson: Thank you . Randy & Candy Allen - 31 Townline Road - Flag Lot - TM 024 - 1 - 17 . 1 G. Totman: Okay. On to Item 2 . Randy Allen is here and he knows us. Randy wants a flag lot. What he does depends on the lot size of the corner lot. He needs two acres. The way he's got this is not really legal. Number one , there are no dimensions on this . There's no identification of where the flag pole is. Let me show you what I'm talking about. Can you give us some figures? R. Allen: What's an acre? M. Carey: We're not sure where the flag pole is on here. (Chairman Totman explains the layout as shown on the sketch provided .) G. Totman : We have got to come up with some dimensions. In order to get a building permit, you need to bring in a survey map before you can get a building permit. R. Allen: If I do, will I have a building lot? (Board members and applicant discuss the possible configurations of the parcel. ) C. Twigg: Let the surveyor figure it out. He's got land enough there . G. Totman: Twenty-one acres altogether. George, let's do the SEAR and get that out of the way. Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part II of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part U. Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Verl Rankin , seconded by Cecil Twigg, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration. 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 20 November 1997 G. Totman: Now that we've declared a negative dec, do you have any other questions you'd like to ask about the subdivision? Okay, I've got it down on the slip that I'm going to turn in to the Clerk that it was approved contingent upon delivery of the survey showing two acres, not including the flag pole . Would anyone like to make a motion that we do it either with or without a public hearing? C. Twigg: I'll make a motion that we do it without a public hearing. V. Rankin: I'll second it. G. Totman: All in favor of that? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) Now that you've made a motion and decided you will handle the situation without a public hearing, how do you want to vote on the approval or disapproval? Co Twigg: I make a motion to approve it contingent upon him bringing in the measurements for the lot that meets our specifications and on a qualified survey map . S. Clark: I'll second that. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) Carried . That's it. R. Allen: Okay. So what have I got to do now, get the survey -- G. Totman : You've got to get somebody -- do you know a surveyor? R. Allen: Yes, G. Totman: Okay. Get him to survey it and bring the mylar copy of the survey into us and -- actually, we need the mylar copy and two other copies . Bring it to Carol, and if it meets the specs, then she calls me up and I come over and sign it. Or, if you want to , you can just bring it to me over there and I could sign it. No -- bring it into her and I can sign it. It would be easier for you because it's right here. She's got a stamp with my signature on it here . R. Allen: Okay. Thanks a lot. Board Discussion - Proposed Adult Entertainment Ordinance G. Totman: At the Town Board meeting, they passed a moratorium for 120 days. They asked the Planning Board to come up with an Ordinance within those 120 days and they were going to ask us to do it within 45 days, I think it was, and I bargained with them a little bit and got it to be about 60 days, I think it was . Anyway, if I remember right, by January 5th we have to have an Ordinance drafted to give to the Town Attorney. So that means that, other than tonight, we've only got one other meeting unless we want to call Special Meetings. We've got to have a plan to give to them by the first of January. V. Rankin: That's all right, but then it'll lay on their desk for - - G. Totman : I understand that, I've been there. But they won't this time . Does anybody have anything that they want to present as an Ordinance for that? G. Van Slyke : Are you kidding me? V. Rankin: I don't see nothing wrong with the way things are now. G. Totman: I understand what you're saying, Verl, but we can' t do it that way. M. Carey: How many restrictions can we put - - can we restrict where it can be? G. Van Slyke : And how close it can be? 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 20 November 1997 G. Totman : According to the First Amendment, you cannot completely restrict them from being nowhere . M. Carey: I understand that part. G. Totman : Might be sometime somebody might overrule that, but at the present time, all the courts have went in favor of that. Just in case you people didn't do anything, I put some stuff together for you to look over just to give you an idea. J. Fitch: George, did you make a copy for me? G. Van Slyke: Sure, you can have Jeffs . G. Totman : I've got a lot more information on this that I didn't even give you . I've put some stuff together and it goes through and talks about problems that different places have had. Some of these are not really ordinances. The second one in, "Adult Use Establishments, " is a full ordinance for the Village of Hilton , just outside of Rochester. In all sincerity, we've got to come up with an Ordinance before the first of the year. And we've either got to do it tonight and our December meeting, or we're going to have to have Special Meetings, C. Twigg: How come we don't have our attorney here to tell us how we can word this? M. Carey: Very good question, Mr. Twigg, G. Totman: I don't have an answer for that, but in most towns this is the way it's done -- by the Planning Board -- the towns I work in. C. Twigg: The Planning Board does not have the legal expertise to word this thing properly. Or will the attorney take what we say -- and put it into words. G. Totman: He'll take what we say. I'm sure he will change things. But what I've given here tonight is ( 1 ) the Village of Hilton, NY. They spent a lot of time doing this. For example, they only did the moratorium in Groton for 120 days. The Town of Lansing did it for six months, so the Town of Lansing Planning Board has the same charge we've got, but they have six months to do it, not 45 days like we had. But, nevertheless, we've got it so we've got to do something about it. I've also given you one for the City of Rome; one for the City of Cortland, and Cortlandville . G. Van Slyke: The one for Cortlandville is not very impressive though is it? G. Totman: No . And then there's some other things I've given you just to give you an idea. That last big sheet I'm giving you as an editorial because it was in the Schenectady newspaper, just to give you an idea that these places they've closed up, the courts have made them open back up because the ordinances were written wrong. What I suggest that we do is to look over these , pick out the ones that are the best that would fit us -- we don't have to use the same 100 feet or 1000 feet or 1500 feet, but we can use the wording and put our own footage in ; it would make it a lot simpler for us. M. Carey: I agree . G. Totman: There might be some things in here where it's too strict or not strict enough . I guess what I'm suggesting is - - if you please would take these and look at them and pencil in what you like or don't like about one or the other of them, then when we come back at the next meeting we can take what the six of us have got and make one out of it. C. Twigg: Is there something in here we ought to be looking at in particular? You must have looked them over already. G. Totman: Yes, C. Twigg: Do you have some suggestions that we should be looking at? 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 20 November 1997 G. Van Slyke: I like this Hilton one . J. Fitch: George , when you do what you're going to do , I will take what you've drafted up , double space it, and get it right back to you so you can sit at the next meeting -- G. Totman: We won't have a next meeting - - unless we do it tonight. J. Fitch: Just like Tracey did when you were doing the Comprehensive Plan. I would provide you with a typewritten draft so you could work together - - G. Totman: What you're saying is that maybe in two weeks we'll hold a meeting and all come back with these things, put them together and come up with something, and then at our regular meeting in December we can have what she's talking about and see if we want to fine tune it any farther, give it back to her and she can type it up and we can give it to the Town Attorney. Does that make sense? M. Carey: Yes. I can't see where we're going to be able to do this without looking these over. G. Totman: I would rather not have you even try to make a decision tonight because this is new to all of you and I 'd rather not try to put all my input into it. Just read it through and then come back. And these are all passed by other municipalities. G. Van Slyke: My question, I guess, is this. All these places that have limited where the distance this thing can be in reference to a church, a school, or that kind of thing- - how many of those, as they've been going through the lawsuits -- how many of those have held up? G. Totman: I can't tell you that. G. Van Slyke: What I'm trying to figure out - - it appears like we've got to try -- we know we can't outlaw them altogether. What we need to do is come up with some area, and we ought to be thinking along these lines too, within the Town of Groton, is that this thing could reasonably exist and be allowed . We have to think about that, too . G. Totman : The one in the Village of Hilton has been in effect since 1995 and they haven't had a challenge yet. That I know. G. Van Slyke: But probably nobody wants to bring an adult thing into Hilton. All the adult stuff is in Rochester. G. Totman: Well, I don't know. I'm just trying to answer your question . So you've got one here for Hilton, City of Rome , City of Cortland , and Cortlandville. M. Carey: Going along with George's question , where would we best set up districts for this , because that's what we've got to do is set up an area that this would be allowed in. Right? G. Van Slyke: Now Hilton's got it in a light industrial, whatever that means -- however they define light industrial. We don't have anything that's light industrial . You look at our map, and unless you pick a place that's strictly out in the boons - - you can't really do that. V. Rankin: You can't really do that, either. G. Van Slyke: We can't really do that. Where are we going to put it? They won't allow it in the Village . M. Carey: And you can't put it on these corners like the M- 1 Districts. There's no way you can put it in that. G. Van Slyke: Okay, let's take a look there . How about that Industrial Zone coming up through there? G. Totman: M-2 . 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 20 November 1997 M. Carey: M-2 , yes. That might be a possibility. V. Rankin: Where's that? G. Van Slyke: Going up Route 222 , G. Totman : How would this sound to you? We come up with two options . If you read these things here -- because a lot of them will say 1000 feet from a residence -- and that means 2000 feet if you think about it -- a thousand feet this way and a thousand feet that way. And one option says we will allow it in the M-2 District and it's got to have this footage on it -- from a distance, etc . And just say in the Agricultural District, but it's got to be 1000 feet from a residence -- that's 2000 feet -- it's got to be 2500 feet from a church -- or something like that. And if you look out in the residential areas, you're going to have to really look awful hard to come up with a place to do it. C. Twigg: Find a really remote spot. G. Totman: Yes. I think that's the best way to do it. If you're 2000 feet away, or a thousand feet in either direction away from something, that means you're 2000 feet. C. Twigg: Just put it so it's just in an Agricultural Zone -- all we're going to allow it in . G. Totman : That's right. It's got to be out in a remote place . And if we do it that way -- but I'd really like you to read through these other ones and then come back and that's all we'll do that one night is just do this and have her type it up . But you've got to read through them and get a better idea of what some of the other places have done. G. Van Slyke: Got any swampland up in West Groton where we could put one of these things in? V. Rankin: I've got a farm I want to sell. It would be a good place for it -- right at the end of Bossard Road . C. Twigg: You better be careful about selling any building lots off of it then. V. Rankin: It's too close to houses there . J. Fitch: George - - would it help if you took these ordinances and literally cut and pasted them - - like taking the Hilton's purpose and Rome's purpose, and Cortland's purpose, etc. and put them all together so can see all the purposes and come up with a purpose of your own? And then do the definitions to cover all of them so that you make sure you don't miss any? That would be easy to do . G. Van Slyke: Yes . That might be something to be done. J. Fitch: Take a sample from each one and just stick them on a piece of paper for a worksheet. G. Van Slyke: So we would have all of -- all of the definitions together, and all of your uses permitted and restrictions. Okay. Do we have to do a non-conforming use thing too? This is going to be tough . C. Twigg: What's a non-conforming use thing? It's not a non-conforming use is it? G. Totman: We already have non-conforming in the regular Ordinance, so we're making an amendment to our Ordinance which already has that in it. G. Van Slyke : Okay. I guess my question is do we have to put in our listing of land use - - do we have to put these things in and say where they're allowed? That would be easy enough to do right? G. Totman: Yes, because for example, you come down the listings and it's got Adult Entertainment, Agricultural, and with an asterisk or whatever it is under Site Plan Review. And then they look up to see what the requirements are in the other part. Everything that' s in there has got a write-up on it as to what is required . Like the flag lot here -- flag lot is okay, but you look on 276. 2 and it tells you what a flag lot is. I just had a brainstorm. How would two or three of you like to meet together and like Joan 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 20 November 1997 had a pretty good idea -- and there's a couple three of you who don't work here and you could meet together and then within - - G. Van Slyke : What the heck do you mean, don't work? G. Totman: I mean that's got more free time than those of us who do work. G. Van Slyke: Have you ever been retired , George? G. Totman: Yes, I have. And I went berserk. G. Van Slyke: You don't have any free time when you're retired. I'm busier now than when I was working. My job I had was go there for so many hours a day and then come home . M. Carey: Maybe we ought to plan on an afternoon or something. Say, 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock or something like that. I'd have to take time off from work, but it would be easier than evening hours. G. Van Slyke : Who are you saying don't work? G. Totman: Cecil, George Van Slyke -- C. Twigg: And Sheldon -- he's been retired for what, two years? How long has that barn been empty? G. Totman: Otherwise , we can meet on the 1lth . M. Carey: When's the ZBA meet - - they meet the 9th . And I think that's a meeting that all of us need to be at because that's a decision-making night. G. Totman : Five o'clock. M. Carey: Their meeting's at 5 o'clock? Oh, crap. V. Rankin: What are they deciding on that night? G. Van Slyke: They brought a thing against the Town for closing them down . M. Carey: So they're going to decide whether to shove it over to our Board or what. G. Van Slyke: How can they shove it over to us? M. Carey: Can I ask a question? On what the Town sent us -- this paper - - do we have to get as explicit as it says in here? We do have to be explicit about what can be seen and shown, and so on? G. Totman : Sure you do. That's why the one for Hilton really went into detail. Most of them are because they don't want to get beat in court. V. Rankin: This will all blow over. It'll all go phooey in a little while and the whole works is going to blow over and that will be the end of it. M. Carey: Yes, but Kuma's is still going . How long have they been over there -- a year, year and a half, two years? G. Van Slyke: I've heard conflicting stories about that. Some people say it's still going and some people say it isn't, that they don't even have them there anymore . G. Totman : Yes they do. V. Rankin: Does Sirens have a pretty good crowd? G. Totman : During the week, they are averaging 12 to 15 cars . They've been counting the cars. 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 20 November 1997 M. Carey: What days are they open? G. Totman : I think it's Tuesday thru Saturday. Let's get on with this so we can close up the meeting. C. Twiigg: So what did we figure -- are we going to have another meeting? G. Van Slyke : Do you want a sub-committee to get together and tear this thing apart? G. Totman: If we could have a sub-committee of two or three people, or anybody who wanted to come to it as long as they knew when you're going to meet, look at these as a guideline and come up with something similar to these -- we'll use the Town of Groton and use our figures like the Ag District and so many feet from here and here, and go through and use the definitions. Joan had a good idea that you might cut these things apart -- G. Van Slyke : Cut them apart and paste them. C. Twigg: I think these evening meetings aren't too bad . Then Monica wouldn't have to take time off from work. And we're used to these -- but some of these people, like Sheldon -- he's got a regular job . We wouldn't need Joan there . G. Totmaw If you do it in a committee meeting, it's got to be gotten to Joan. If you meet like next week and get this done, get it back in here so Carol can get it -- or give it to me and I'll get it to Joanie so that our regular meeting in December she can have it for us . Then she can type it up for the attorney. Can we make a decision? Does anybody want to take it upon themselves and have a special committee and work on this and bring it in and give it to me or Carol? Then have a full general meeting on the 11 th . S. Clark: And do it then? G. Totman : Basically, what you're going to do is forget the whereas's and the resolves and that sort of thing and come up with where do we want it and how far do we want it from whatever, come up with the intent and the definitions. You can take them right from these things. They're all here . Just pick out which ones you want from which ones. If you'll notice , the one from Cortlandville is a very skimpy thing. So how do you want to do it? M. Carey: I still think we need to hold that meeting on the 1 lth . C. Twigg: This other meeting was an extra meeting, wasn't it, George? G. Van Slyke: Okay. When is our meeting in December? G. Totman : The 18th . All I'm suggesting is if we do nothing until the 18th , that won't give us time to get it done unless we have a meeting between Christmas and New Year's. Because when we come back on the 18th , unless everybody's done a real lot of homework and put it together, we'll spend two or three hours that night going over it and then it won't be typed up . Where if we meet or have somebody - - if we either meet, or have a committee to meet and put this thing together and give it to Joan , then at our 11th meeting we can agree to it and she can type it up and we'll have it for our 18th meeting to approve it. We've got to make some kind of a decision as to how we want to do it. C. Twigg: Probably ought to have a meeting ahead of the 1 lth, hadn't we? M. Carey: What about some Saturday? Sundays are hard for me because I've got to milk Sundays. C. Twigg: This isn't anything that Joan has to be too? M. Carey: Not this meeting. 8 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 20 November 1997 G. Totman : Not where we just pick it apart. She'll have to be at the 1 lth meeting. M. Carey: Who can't make an afternoon meeting? G. Van Slyke : It all depends on what day it is. M. Carey: I'd have to take time off from work but, like I said, I've got some time I've got to get used up. G. Van Slyke : I guess I'd be willing to work on a committee . I've been obligated to a few things already, so it's not like I've got unlimited time to do it in. I'd just as soon been involved in taking this thing apart. G. Totman: Pick a day you'd like to have the committee meet and see how many people can meet you on that date . G. Van Slyke: Next week is Thanksgiving. So let's get into -- December. I'm obligated the 5th and 6th . I'd be willing on the 1st or 2nd . M. Carey: What's the first on? G. Totman : Monday. M. Carey: And what time were we thinking? G. Totman : Three? G. Van Slyke: Cecil said something about an evening thing. Or I can make it at 3 o'clock. Do you want to meet here at 3 o'clock? And we'll do the cutting and pasting. If you can't make it -- J. Fitch: That's 3 o'clock on the first? G. Totman: Yes. And then we'll meet on the 11th . I might be late on the 11th . I'll try to make it on this one here, and on the 1 lth we'll meet with Joanie and go through the fine details so she can take it in and type it up . G. Van Slyke: Wait a minute . We're going to meet at 3 o'clock December 1st at the Planning Office . And you're going to meet December 11th at 8 . G. Totman : And all we'll do that night is go through the thing and fine tune the thing, and she'll be here that night. C. Twigg: And what the committee puts together, we're just going to go over it - - G. Totman : We'll put it all together with Joanie here so she can help organize it, and that will be on the 1 lth . Because on the 18th is our regular meeting night and we might have a few things come up on that night and I don't want to spend too much time on it. I think there's enough stuff here so all you're going to do is take from here and put there and stuff like that. G. Van Slyke : Why don't we do this when we come the first -- come prepared with the thing cut and pasted so we can look at it and read them off and see which ones are the best ones to use. J. Fitch: You should have one person do it, or do it together, rather than have four different ones to work with . C. Twigg: Then why don't you do that, George, and when we get to the meeting we'll have all those things on one paper that we can all look at. G. Totman: Does everybody agree that we'll use the Ag District? (All agreed . ) 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 20 November 1997 G. Van Slyke: That's better than going into the Industrial Zone. C. Twigg: The Ag District is the only place they can get far enough away from residences. G. Totman: Then we're all set for the dates -- the first, the eleventh and the 18th. Adjournment G. Totman : Does anyone want to make a motion to adjourn the meeting? CO Twigg: I move we adjourn the meeting. S. Clark: I'll second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members presented indicated they were in favor.) The meeting was adjourned at 9*30 p .m . JodE. Fitch Recording Secretary 10