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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1997-06-19 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING Thursday, 19 June 1997 Board Members (*absent) Others Present George Totman, Chairman Joan Fitch , Board Secretary Monica Carey Carl Kelley, Applicant Sheldon Clark John Pachai, Applicant *Jeff Lewis Robert Walpole, Applicant Verl Rankin Harvey Norte *Cecil Twigg George VanSlyke The meeting was called to order at 7* 59 p.m. by Chairman Totman. G. Totman : I'll call the meeting to order and ask anybody if they read the minutes of the last meeting, and they haven't, so we'll leave that to the last part of the meeting. And being that it's 8 o'clock and the person on the agenda first is not here yet, we'll take up with the people that are here . Carl L. & Barbara J. Kelley - 311 Pleasant Valley Road - Subdivision/Boundary Change - TM #35 - 1 - 11 . 2 G. Totman: This is Mr. Kelley over here, this is Mr. Norte over here. Do you know all the Board members? C. Kelley: I know Verl and I know George . G. Totman : And that's Monica Carey. Okay . Has everybody got their map out so you'll know what land we're talking about? G. Van Slyke : Well , which one are we doing? Kelley and Norte first? G. Totman : Kelley and Norte. Do you have one of these things with you , one of you? For the Board's purposes, will you show us what property? This is Norte and this is Norte . C. Kelley: This right here is Bell and Allen and right here's a stone wall . This is going to go at an angle over to meet the land we sold before over here . G. Totman: Ludlow? C. Kelley: No, this one right here . That's Kern. This land with the old stone wall will be going back across like this. G. Totman: So you're dividing. . . . George? G. Van Slyke : I'm just trying to figure what to heck you're doing here. Where's this stone wall? G. Totman : Right here . C. Kelley: Right here - - there's a marked point right there with some flags on it. And the last time this was surveyed there was an iron pipe put there . M. Carey: So this piece that you've got kind of shaded is what you want to sell off? G. Totman : It's going to add on to 35- 1 -8 . V. Rankin: It's going to go all the way down the whole works? 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 June 1997 G. Totman : Basically, we're taking a part of 11 . 2 and adding it to 35- 1 -8. for the record. Any other questions from the Board? M. Carey: I don't see anything wrong with that. G. Totman : Okay, when we did this subdivision a year or so ago, we did a SEAR and , theoretically, every time the Board does an action you have to do a SEQR Because we have done a SEQR on this same property and we're not really changing anything, we can formally vote to use the SEQR that we used the first time instead of doing another one , if you so desire . Or, we can go through the process and do another SEQR. V. Rankin: I move we drop it. M. Carey: Second it. G. Totman: You're really moving to use the same SEQR that we used the first time and not do it over again on the same piece of property? V. Rankin: Yes. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) Any other questions? M. Carey: We're not landlocking it or anything . G. Totman: No. Does anyone want to make a motion? G. Van Slyke: I make a motion we accept the boundary change as presented. M. Carey: I second it. V. Rankin: Well then , who owns these other strips? Do you own them, or does somebody else? C. Kelley: I own just a small frontage here on Pleasant Valley Road . And then I -- all the way back is the parcel I'm cutting off. The one beside me is the place that we used to own . Now it's been sold off to Dague . V. Rankin: That's the one right there -- across from Peggy? C. Kelley: Yes, the one across from Peggy. They're right straight across from Peggy's driveway. V. Rankin: How about the old one well back there -- is that still going? C. Kelley: It's bubbling. It's a 10-inch casing that sticks about 4 feet out of the field . It's always flowing at least a little bit. J. Fitch: You still have a motion on the floor that's been seconded by Monica, you just need to vote . G. Totman : All in favor? (All members present voted in favor. ) Nobody opposed . C. Kelley: George, I was told I had to sign a paper down here. My wife had signed it, an she was told I was to sign it -- the application, or whatever. G. Totman: Are both your names on the deed? C. Kelley: Yes, they are . G. Totman: Okay. Sign right there after your wife's name . Thank you, sir. 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 June 1997 C. Kelley: Thank you . Robert Walpole for Roger Gleason - Lick Street - Boundary Change - Part of TM # 121 - 1 - 21 . 2 G. Totman: Okay, Robert Walpole. Robert's here, just briefly if you people will remember, Roger Gleason had a subdivision up on Lick Street, and we had him reserve a 60-foot strip in there to get to the back property . What we're going to do now is discuss moving that from one side of the property to another side of the property -- still having the same configuration of the right-of-way to the back property, only move it from one location to another. V. Rankin: From one side to the other. G. Totman: Of the lots, yes. Is that correct, Robert? R. Walpole: Yes. The reason why is that people buying the Jones' house want that lot for protection; they have no desire to build there . I just talked to Hilker, one we sold one of the lots to , and he had no problem with it as long as he knew somebody wasn't going to build there . V. Rankin: So what do we have to do? There's not much to do here . G. Totman: We can approve a boundary change. R. Walpole: The survey work has been done and you'll have a copy for the file . G. Totman: What you've also got to do is the same thing on the SEAR that you did on the other one . G. Van Slyke : I move that we use the old SEAR that was used previously. V. Rankin: I second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) Any more questions about the change before you vote on it? Okay. M. Carey: I'll make the motion to approve the boundary change as presented . V. Rankin: I'll second it. G. Totman : Anybody opposed? (No member present indicated they were opposed .) John J. Pachai, Jr. - Boundary Change - Cedar Lane/Mack Street - TM # 26- 1 - 17 . 23 G. Totman: Mr, Pachai, V. Rankin: Did you build up there , John? J. Pachai: Yes . We moved in in March of '95 . And I thought a new house would be great -- no work to do, nothing. 19ve been busier with that place - - G. Totman: What John is asking for is a little bit different. J. Pachai: You approved the lot at the end of Mack Street a couple of years ago. And what I would like to do is create a flag lot - - a new flag lot from part of that lot. I apologize for the crudeness of the map , but I didn't want to get too specific because I figured the survey would probably be the final . V. Rankin: I forgot -- do you own all of this? J. Pachai: Everything in the dark black. 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 June 1997 V. Rankin: Just the dark black. You don't own the others. J. Pachai: This is the parcel that our house is on. G. Totman: 17-20-21 . J. Pachai: Right. And then this is the parcel at the end of Mack Street that was originally -- I can't remember what parcel that was in the old subdivision. V. Rankin: Well, you come in from over here . J. Pachai: I come in from Cedar Lane, That's Mack Street, V. Rankin: You want to come in from Mack Street? J. Pachai: Right. G. Totman: Well , you don't have any dimensions here, John, on Mack Street on how much each one is going to have -- J. Pachai: Excuse me -- each one would get half, which would be, according to the tax map, I believe it's 30 feet -- Mack Street is 60 feet according to the tax map . G. Totman : So each one would have 30 feet. J. Pachai: Each one would have 30, If the tax map's wrong, because it seems to me that the surveyor had it --- G. Totman: What you're saying is that each lot would butt right up to -- you're really not having per se what you really call a flag lot, although we would have to call it a flag lot, but each one here is going to butt right to the street so we don't have what we call a flag pole . J. Pachai: Right, G. Totman : A flag lot usually has a flag pole. J. Pachai: Basically, the pole is as wide as the property; it's just that the property - -- G. Totman: Well, the pole is Mack Street. Because we usually tell them they can't build or anything in the pole . Like a pole is 400 feet back and the lot is back here, what we call a flag pole is -- J. Pachai: I think the "wordage" was somehow -- wasn't that adjusted some how in the revision? G. Totman: Well , the frontage was changed so that we could -- V. Rankin: Well, now, I don't understand yet. This goes out to Mack Street, right? J. Pachai: Yes, that abuts the end of Mack Street. V. Rankin: The whole roadway abuts -- J. Pachai: The entire parcel abuts Mack Street. Mack Street is 60 feet according to the tax map , and there's an additional wrap-around from the Village parcel. V. Rankin: So this is the end of Mack Street, then? J. Pachai: Yes. 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 June 1997 V. Rankin: Okay. M. Carey: Are there houses abutting this property on both sides, basically? J. Pachai: Yes. In fact, the boundary change that's in that packet -- the individual would like to buy a strip into the field, but the potential buyer, Joey Manning, of the west parcel doesn't really want to give that up . So what I'm going to do is pretty much give, for whatever my expenses are, that little box up in the upper left-hand corner to the person that owns -- V. Rankin: You mean this little triangle-type thing up here? J. Pachai: Well, actually, this piece right here, this larger triangle belongs to Chris Montrieul and family. This little box behind here, A, is V. Rankin: This already belongs to that guy. J. Pachai: Yes. G. Van Slyke : This is already Montrieul? J . Pachai: Yes. V. Rankin: Then you still own this little box in there . J. Pachai: Right. And basically I'm just going to negotiate something favorable for him because he really wanted to buy into that field . V. Rankin: Is there much there? J. Pachai: No, it's about -- in fact, I got a call from the surveyor the other day and that appears to be angled to the northwest. It's almost actually Due West that upper line . When they were re- surveying for the school, they discovered that there was a question that rather than the northerly line being angled to the northwest, it's actually angled almost Due West. V. Rankin: And you're talking about a boundary change. J. Pachai: Yes, for that lot there. Of course , that whole package will be contingent upon approval of both elements of this because it doesn't make any sense to do one without the package which is my headache. V. Rankin: You've got two lots there you 're going to sell or have sold . J. Pachai: Right. My son is trying to -- Me Carey: I don't think we subdivided it before, did we? I think we just -- J. Pachai: Not that field . But there was a subdivision of the Mack Street field, the parcel that our house is on on Cedar Lane , and the larger woods. And there's a right-of-way running through our parcel to the larger woods. G. Totman: Let me ask a question . The lot, when you're coming from Mack Street to this lot and then you drive - - supposing Mack Street runs right down through the center of these two lots . You'd run into 17 . 1 , Who owns that - - the Groton School District? J. Pachai: Yes. G. Totman : And then the other lot down here , 19? J. Pachai: That is Kelvo (?) and Owens. 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 June 1997 G. Totman : Now what's the terrain of the land in there? J. Pachai: Like this. G. Totman: I'll tell you what I'm getting at. J. Pachai: Right at the end of, right at the end of -- if you were to take Mack Street down through the centerline, the Mack Street field as they call it, that we own -- as soon as you cross the hedgerow and go into 17 . 1 , you're facing about a 30-foot -- G. Totman: What I'm getting at -- what we're deciding is that it's not feasible to take Mack Street and bring it through that property to another undisclosed designation. J. Pachai: I would say not. On the back side of that hill it's probably -- you've got a grade about like this and then you get into soggy ground and a creek that you'd have to build a bridge across . G. Totman: You're talking about more than a 20% grade then. J. Pachai: Well, the front side of the grade is definitely more . The front side of the hill facing Mack Street is about like this. G. Totman : How's that going to show in the minutes? J. Pachai: Excuse me . It's steeper than 45 degrees. G. Totman: What I'm getting at is -- we're not supposed to approve a flag lot if it's feasible to bring the road in at a later date so that we don't block the road off in going to some other field . Do you follow what I'm saying? J. Pachai: Right. G. Van Slyke: The Groton School District owns that 17 , 1 . J. Pachai: Right. And that's a nature preserve . I think that's what they call it. G. Totman: See , flag lots should not be used to avoid the construction of roads if the construction of a road is feasible . That's why I was bringing that up for the matter of the record and the minutes to show why you would approve a flag lot there . And keep in mind the Comprehensive Plan and the Ordinance itself. J. Pachai: Right. And , in fact, if we go back to the subdivision that we did before we built our house, the only reasonable access we provided a right-of-way for on the parcel that our house sits on. G. Totman: I remember that. J. Pachai: In fact, that's why we put it there because it was - -- G. Totman : So you could get to the back lots down through there going around this ravine that you're talking about there . Okay. I just wanted that for a matter of record. J. Fitch: George , I'm trying to match the tax map numbers with the application. It says 26- 1 - 17 . 23 and the tax map number is not shown on the map. J. Pachai: I whited that out and intended to write it in manually because it was taking up half of the -- (Mr. Pachai then clarifies the tax map numbers to the secretary and the Board) . G. Totman: Okay. Any other questions? V. Rankin: None, I guess, from me. 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 June 1997 M. Carey: No. G. Totman: They're all over two acres . I assume you read the Ordinance to know what they had to be. G. Van Slyke: Which one are we going to do first? Are we going to do the subdivision first, or the boundary change first? V. Rankin: He's not interested in the boundary change until this whole thing flies anyway, are you? J. Pachai: You do whatever you have to do . Because ultimately it's not until I go to the County Clerk with a map that it becomes a separate parcel, correct? until it's filed? G. Totman: Right. It's not legal until you bring the surveyor's map back here and have it signed by the Planning Board . We can approve the boundary change here , and then when he brings it back in we can do it together or all at once -- depending on how you want to do it. The boundary change is a very minute minor thing as I see it. And -- you want to do the boundary change first? Here's another case where -- G. Van Slyke : Well, you ought to do the boundary change first because once you do the subdivision you're going to have to be going off a deeded lot. G. Totman : You didn't fill out a SEAR form, did you? J. Pachai: Actually I did. I just didn't make copies of it. I do have one more . G. Van Slyke: George , a boundary change should be made up off of his parcel before he subdivides, because that way he won't have to worry about a boundary change off of this property B that he might sell to somebody else . The boundary change should be done first, I would think. G. Totman: What we're approving is the triangular boundary change . G. Van Slyke: Well, it's not even a triangle - - it's a trapezoid isn't it? V. Rankin: What's that? G. Van Slyke: Right there -- that's a trapezoid . V. Rankin: Okay. He's a math teacher. G. Totman : So he's asking for a boundary change -- do you have the measurements to the boundary change? J. Pachai: I can tell you that it is approximately 46 feet by 46 feet, say 50 by 50 approximately -- rounded up rather than down, I guess. The part that looks like it goes up hill is actually down because there was a correction. S. Clark: So it's really like a square? J. Pachai: It's more like a square now. Of course, with most surveys, nothing's ever -- G. Totman: That's to Montreuil - M - O - N - T - R - E - U - I - L. All right. J. Pachai: He's not even aware of this, by the way. He wants it, though . G. Totman: Within the last three years, we approved a subdivision on this parcel. We did a SEAR. Do you want to do another SEAR for this, or do you want to accept that SEAR? G. Van Slyke: Let's accept that SEAR. 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 June 1997 G. Totman: Do you want to make that into a motion? G. Van Slyke: Yes, I so move. V. Rankin: I'll second it. G. Totman : Anybody against it? (No member present indicated they were opposed . ) Carried. Okay . Anyone want to approve the boundary change? V. Rankin: I move we approve the boundary change . S. Clark: I'll second it. G. Totman: Okay. Now we're talking about -- J. Fitch: We need a vote . G. Totman : Oh , anybody against it? (No member present indicated they were opposed . ) Now we're talking about making two flag lots. And in keeping with the intent of the Ordinance , this is at the end of a dead-end street that cannot go any farther because of the terrain of the land . So we're not blocking off the future use of the street if you do it this way because the land right behind it belongs to the school and it's a nature preserve. And from there it drops off into a steep bank. I don't see anything else in the Ordinance that says that it's not a legal request. V. Rankin: Put it in that we're changing it because of the rugged terrain. G. Totman : I was saying that for the minutes so that she can get it in the minutes. Anybody got any other questions? If not, does somebody want to move? M. Carey: I'll make a motion that we approve the subdivision as submitted. S. Clark: I'll second it. G. Totman: Anybody against it? (No member present indicated they were opposed. ) Approved. Miscellaneous Business # 1 G. Totman: Does anybody else have anything they want to bring up to the Board meeting? S. Clark: I do . We have a couple trailers that moved up on Old Stage Road just above me on the old Abdallah property. The owner of it is Lawrence Walrad. When they bought the property, there was a horse barn there, and there was a trailer in there a few years ago on a pad, but there was no septic system. It's been vacant for, I'd say, five years. Anyway, I stopped down and talked to George when this was all starting, and he stated that he would check them out for a septic system of which they've put in some kind of a system. Now, my concern is - - this is Old Stage Road - - this is one trailer. I'm sure there's enough frontage there -- there's got to be -- I don't know. I wished I could have got a map and looked it up. But there's a barn back here and they put another trailer right up here, almost to the road with the door west. Is there anything in the Ordinance on distance of trailers on sites? V. Rankin: They're close together? S. Clark: Yes, G. Totman: State law says they've got to be at least 5 feet apart. S. Clark: Okay. Well, they're more than that. And is there anything in the law that says they've got to. be setting on some kind of -- they just set cement blocks on top of dirt for this one, and the cement blocks are tipping. 8 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 June 1997 G. Totman : There's a law saying they've got to be tied down . Got to have official tie-downs . S. Clark: Now is this something that George would -- G. Totman : Did they get a permit to put it there? S. Clark: I have no idea. I asked him to please check on it, and he said he would. It just doesn't look good. The trailers are real old . I don't even know if they -- G. Totman : Let me put it this way. The law says that if a trailer is older than a 1976 then it's got to have proof that it was brought up to Code and it meets the current State Code . S. Clark: That's what I thought. G. Totman: And if they put a mobile home in -- or any type of building -- they've got to, number one, get a permit, and number two, they've got to get Health Department construction permit for the septic system, and it's got to be on file with that permit. And then it's got to be tied down so the wind can't blow it away. It used to be that you didn't have to require them this side of the Thruway to be tied down. But since a year ago last August, the State changed the rules and the whole State has to have tie-downs on their trailers. S. Clark: I was hoping George would be here tonight so we could address it now. It's a real mess . There's ten horses on the front lawn there . G. Totman: The name is Larry Walrad? Where's he from? S. Clark: Lansing. You know him don't you? He's right on my boundary. The language -- they've got dogs, they've got -- G. Totman: Actually, the problem you're talking about is good to bring up, and I'll bring it to George , There's not anything we can do about it except I can check with George. I should see him tomorrow afternoon. Is there anything else? Approval of Minutes G. Totman : Do you want to read the minutes now, or approve them at the next meeting? V. Rankin: Approve them at the next meeting. I've got to go to another meeting tonight. G. Totman: Is there anything else to be brought up before the meeting? Miscellaneous Business # 2 G. Van Slyke : Oh -- for the record, I got my training in. G. Totman : You got your training in? What did you do to get your training in? G. Van Slyke : I went to that water thing down to Ithaca. G. Totman: What did you learn? Anything to be of help on this Board? G. Van Slyke : Oh , yes. They had zoning and had a map and - - G. Totman: I'm just curious. Did you go to that? M. Carey: No, I wasn't here . 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 June 1997 G. Totman: Is that the one Lyle Raymond talked on? G. Van Slyke: Yes, G. Totman: Okay. I heard that was a good meeting. G. Van Slyke : It was a good meeting. They had a proposed "development" and they had a map, and we had to go through and find all the mistakes in the development. They had water running through the "property" and they had the drainage ditches all going in different ways. It was interesting. G. Totman: Anybody want to make a motion? V. Rankin: I make a motion we adjourn. S. Clark: I'll second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All indicated they were in favor.) The meeting ended at 8*42 p.m. Respectfully submitted, oan E. Fitch Recording Secretary 10