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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1996-10-19 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING Thursday, 19 September 1996 Board Members (*absent) Others Present :George Totman, Chairman Joan E. Fitch , Recording Secretary Monica Carey George Senter, Town CEO Sheldon Clark Maere Preston & Tom Bonne *Jeff Lewis Bernard Douka Verl Rankin G . Bruce Davison, PLS Cecil Twigg Jeff Kelly *George VanSlyke Robert Walpole The meeting was called to order at 8 p.m. by Chairman George Totman. -� G. Totman: Okay, the first thing on the agenda is to approve the minutes of the last meeting, and if it's okay with you , I'll forego those because we've got four different sets of people here -- two of them are on the agenda, and the rest of them are not. (Note : Mr. Totman's fire monitor goes off and all wait to see what was going on. Conversation not transcribed. ) Bernard L. Douka (Richard Clark Property) - 462 Pleasant Valley Rd. - MVRS Application - TM # 32- 1 - 39 G. Totman: Because Maere Preston's on the schedule for 8 : 15 - - this is Maere Preston sitting here -- what I -- I'll take the privilege of the Chair and take care of the two gentlemen who are standing up first, and that's Bernard Douka. And if you'll remember, we held a public hearing at the last meeting and he wasn't here. It's just customary that they are here in case there are any further questions or whatever, so we asked him to be present. We've already reviewed with him, prior to the public hearing, and we just want to reaffirm that what we did is all agreed to and then we can vote on that and go on with the rest of the meeting. The stipulations were : that he had his situation cleared up with the Zoning Officer for having been previously cited for his junk cars and, if that was all taken care of, it was agreed there would be not more than three (3) turnkey cars visible on the property during the operation, no junk outside, and his hours were going to be Monday thru Saturday, 8 a.m. to 5 p .m. -- no Sunday work. Do you remember all that? B. Douka: Yes, G. Totman : We received a letter after the public hearing -- you all have a copy of it -- we'll ask the secretary to put it into the minutes as if it were read . The letter, entered into this record by the SecretaT, as requested by the Chairman, is dated August 12, 1996, and is from. Charlotte Morton of 109 Royal Avenue, Hawthorne, NJ 0 75 06- 1 83 0 (phone 201 -427-0017), owner of 39. 5 acres of land at 462 Pleasant Valley Road The letter is addressed to George Totman, Planning Board Chairman, and reads: Dear Sir: 1 want to go on record as being opposed to Richard and Sharon Clark, Owner and Bernard Douka, leasor [sic] , operating a Motor Vehicle Repair Shop at 462 Pleasant Valley Road in Groton, NY. Since my property is the 39.5 acres adjacent to theirs at 462 Pleasant Valley Road, it would do much to devaluate [sic] my property and make it impossible to sell. There are nice little homes in that area and a repair shop would destroy the serene like setting. Please read my letter into the minutes as being opposed to this application and could you please send me minutes of the meeting concerning same. Thank you. Charlotte Morton 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 With all that, does anybody have any more questions? If not, we'll entertain a motion. M. Carey: Is the property okay with you, George? G. Senter: Last time I was by it. G. Totman: He still has to follow the same rules. But we just wanted to make sure that those were taken care of first. M. Carey: I'll make a motion we approve it with those stipulations . C. Twigg: I'll second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All indicated they were in favor.) Now what will happen is you will come back and George can explain it -- you will be issued a special permit and each year -- and throughout the year -- George makes inspections to make sure that things are according to Hoyle. Okay? B . Douka: What about a sign? G. Senter: You have to get a sign application if you want to put a sign up -- like out front. G. Totman: Okay? B. Douka: All right. G. Senter: You can get that out there from Carol. V. Rankin: I'm not in favor of the thing at all -- it's a junk hole and always will be . G. Totman: I understand, but I don't know what else we can do with it. Maere Preston - Preliminary - Flag Lot on McLean-Cortland Road - TM # 39- 1 -25 . 2 G. Totman: Maere, M. Preston: Yes, sir. G. Totman: George is the name. Do you all have Maere's application there? M. Carey: Did we get it? I don't think we got one . V. Rankin: I don't believe so -- I got the minutes. M. Carey: I got the minutes and I got Bob's application, but I didn't get any other. G. Totman: As I understand it, Maere applied for a trailer permit and she found out that she had to get subdivision approval on the lot in order to sell the flag lot. So Maere is here to explain to the Board what she wants to do. The only thing that I've got that Carol left out is a highlighted part of the tax parcel that she's talking about. G. Senter: George , she wants to put it on a portion of that. That's the whole lot. G. Totman: The tax map number is 39- 1 -25. 2 . M. Carey: This yellow outline -- is this your whole parcel? M. Preston: I don't have the slightest idea . C. Twigg: What's this road here , Maere? This is the Cortland-McLean? 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 M. Preston: That must be the Cortland-McLean Road . Separate Conversation at opposite end of table (from tape) : G. Totman: What's your name? T. Bonnt: Tom Bonne . Back to other end of table (from shorthand notes) : V. Rankin: Whereabouts are you? M. Preston: I'm right here -- this lot. (At this time , there were three separate discussions going on -- one with applicant at far end of table -- one in the middle with the Chair and real estate salesman , and one next to the Recording Secretary at the desk. Unable to transcribe tape , or hear through other conversations to take dictation. Considerable time is passed before meeting becomes orderly and the secretary, or the tape, is able to hear what is transpiring. ) V. Rankin: Okay, what do you want to do? M. Preston: I want to sell this lot and I want to sell this lot. M. Carey: For a flag lot -- how many feet is that? It's too much for a flag lot. Can we move the boundary down on this one so that we increase the boundary on this? G. Totman : There's a house in there . Did I talk to you about Lyle Raymond? M. Preston: Yes. G. Totman: Did you call him? M. Preston: Yes, G. Totman: What did he tell you? M. Preston: Oh , God, that was so long ago I can't remember. I think we talked about it. V. Rankin: What about this lot here? M. Carey: Not enough road frontage. C. Twigg: There's not enough road frontage for a regular lot, and too much for a flag lot. M. Carey: Well, this lot that has a house on it -- would they be willing to change the boundary -- because they got 202 feet. Sell off some of it. Do they own this property? C. Twigg: That's none of your business . She could sell it on a contract. Oh no, she couldn't get a building permit. M. Carey: The way the Ordinance is right now, she couldn't get a building permit. Which lot is -- the 3. 7 acres? Or the 10 acres? C. Twigg: So unless she gets a variance . . . 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 Separate conversation between George Totman & George Senter, going on at same time -- some of which is as follows (from shorthand notes) : G. Senter: She could take 5 feet right off of that. G. Totman: There's another lot inbetween . G. Senter: Yes. Back to other end of table (from tape) : C. Twigg: So unless she gets a variance. . . (Conversation going on now between Totman and Bonne at middle of table ; unable to hear rest of Twigg conversation.) C. Twigg: So unless you cut that down -- you've got the big one , the middle one there sold. You could cut that back. M. Preston: Yes, I could make that roadway narrower. Co Twigg: If you make that roadway narrower, you would be creating an -- G. Totman: Which one have you got the buyer for right now? M. Preston: The big one, G. Totman: Could I suggest something to you? M. Preston: Everybody's got suggestions. G. Totman: Do you really want to sell this lot? M. Preston: Yes, I'd really like to. G. Totman: Hutchings lives here and Hatfield owns this. M. Preston: No, his name is ?? G. Totman: Do you know these people? M. Preston: Yes. G. Totman: Okay. You want to sell this lot out here -- have your surveyor -- got a good one right here -- change this dimension right here and take 5 . 88 feet off of this thing right here and give it to these people, and then you can have a flag lot out here . We can't do anything for you on this one, but if you give these people that 5 feet, this is the way you could sell this lot out here. Do you follow what I'm saying? C. Twigg: I see what you're saying . We asked for a flag lot to be no less than 20 feet. Somewheres it got put in there that it could be no more than 30 feet. We're in the process of going to the Town Board and getting it changed. But it's not going to happen within the next two or three weeks. Somewheres, I think what happened is when we sent it, the person we worked with on it must have gone by some guidelines that she had and we didn't catch it before it got printed up and then it was too late and already became law. So we have to have a public hearing and such -- so the Town Board asked us instead of bring just one thing back they want us to bring all errors, etc , back at one time . We've got a committee working on it now and hopefully by the October meeting we can give them the changes they need to have made and then they've got to hold public hearings if they agree to it. If you gave those people there that 5 . 88 feet, they probably wouldn't care -- and then you can get permission tonight for 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1.996 having this flag lot when you present a new one of these with that moved over. He shouldn't have to re- survey it -- all he's got to do is move the line over, V. Rankin: I don't understand this -- he's telling you to give somebody something there? M. Preston: Yes, right here where it says 55.88, he wants to give them 5.88 feet. This would leave them 50 feet. G. Totman : No, no, You said it wrong, Marie , It's not that I want to give it to them, I'm saying that if you want to get that approved, you could give it to them, M. Preston: Don't be so technical . V. Rankin: If she's got more land, why does she have to give some of it away? G. Totman: The way the Ordinance is written up, we can't approve a flag lot that's over 50 feet, M. Preston: Why can't you give me a variance? M. Carey: We don't do variances. G. Totman: You can do this quicker than getting a variance, M. Preston: Yes? All right. C. Twigg: And it's not going to make a difference to either lot -- 5 feet. M. Preston: No, I know that. M. Carey: Maybe you can make a deal with that other guy and . . . . . . G. Totman: If you wanted to get a variance , I think I told you that I would talk to Lyle and tell him that the Planning Board had nothing against granting the variance . That's the way it works, But then he'd have to set up a public hearing, blab , blah, blah and all that stuff, M. Preston: Okay. I've got that settled. I'll give him the five feet, What do I have to do to get this one sold? G. Totman: That has to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals for a variance , C. Twigg: Or she could make two flag lots out of that -- that one there she could sell. G. Totman: No she couldn't. C. Twigg: How much road frontage you got? M. Preston: 130 feet is all on that one. You see , when they surveyed it originally they had. " , , , G. Totman : Three flag lots. C. Twigg: And you could sell the lot and when we change the Ordinance just give them the road frontage back. M. Carey: It's a little over 3 acres, so it's going to be pretty darn tight, C. Twigg: Three acres -- is that all that is there? G. Totman : Is he (referring to Tom Bonnd) getting paid for being here tonight? M. Preston: I hope not. It was his idea, I didn't invite him, 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 T. Bonnd: Eventually, I hope so. I wanted to get educated and find out what these guys do here. You could split that into two -- you'd have two flag lots and you could sell them both . M. Preston: How does that sound, George? Did you get it? You look a little lost, fella. C. Twigg: It wouldn't run into a different subdivision would it? M. Carey: It might run into a flag lot subdivision . G. Totman: But in order to do that, you've got to come up with -- it sounds great what you just said, but you're going to cut this in half right back through here and then you're going to put another line out in here somewheres to make two lots out here. C. Twigg: How many acres has she got there? M. Preston: Ten -- 10.43 . G. Totman: But in this lot here, that's on this side of the site, you've got to have at least an acre of usable land C. Twigg: Not to subdivide it. G. Totman: Well, if they do anything with it. C. Twigg: Well, if he wants to build on it later he'd have to. All they want to do is get it sold . G. Totman: But the railroad goes through there also. She's got a buyer for it the way it is right now . V. Rankin: Give them the 5 feet and get on with it. G. Totman ; Give the 5 feet to these people here and we'll pass it. C. Twigg: You could pass it with the two lots, too. I don't think it would matter which way you do it. M. Carey: You better check the Ordinance though on those flag lots. G. Totman: Give me a minute , will you, please. T. Bonnd: Regardless of what happens with this one, whether it be 5 feet deeded to somebody else totally, or however it's done, the thing is that what you could do is apply for a variance on this one right away, right? M. Carey: Yes, T. Bonnd: So that she'll be able to sell it. M. Carey. Yes, because there's not enough road frontage and we can't approve that. T. Bonn6: And not little enough either. G. Totman: (Finishes reading) Okay. For the benefit of the Planning Board members, let me read this. This is one that we did in August of '95. And this particular piece of land had 60 feet, and we did this three months after the Ordinance was passed in May. These are my comments: '"The Planning Board has got to make a decision. You will either accept it as presented, with the recognition that the law calls for up to 50 feet. But if you pass it at 50 feet you're going to have 10 feet of wasted land that nobody can 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 use for anything. So if you say we're just going to pass it that way, you want to pass it to hold to 50 feet, the owner will have 50 feet, and then the owner will remain the owner of a 10-foot by 280-foot. . . and he can go to the ZBA if he wants to, to express a request that it be included in the other lot, or we can pass it in its entirety the way it is. There are six out of seven members of the Planning Board members here. You make a motion and we'll vote on it. " And we passed that one . I'm glad I'm getting support here. We made a decision then to circumvent the Ordinance for the betterment of the use of that land. M. Carey: Yes. G. Totman: And I would recommend we could do that this time because we didn't have any problem doing it the last time . I had forgotten about this. Now, before you go any farther, Monica. . . . Board Member Carey then reads aloud Part 11 of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part H. Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Monica Carey, seconded by Cecil Twigg, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration . G. Totman: How do you want to handle this now? Do you want to have a public hearing, or waive the public hearing, or pass it the way it's being presented tonight? Or do you want to reject it? C. Twigg: Let's just pass it. G. Totman: Do you want to pass it as presented, the reason being as I read the statement from our previous Board meeting? Somebody make a motion. C. Twigg: I make a motion that we approve it as presented and waive the public hearing. M. Carey: I second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) Then I declare it passed . I'm sorry, but this is the way the thing turned out. M. Preston: So it's set to go? G. Totman: Yes. I had forgotten about the action we'd taken before, and Mr. Walpole reminded me of it because it was a lot up there. J. Fitch: George , for the record, could you make it clear as to what lot was passed? G. Totman: On the survey map that was prepared by Mr. Greene, it's a portion of the tax map as you've got it there, and it's recorded as 591 /743, and a portion of that larger tax map number. J. Fitch: Could you refer to a size? G. Totman: It's 10. 3 acres, with a 'road frontage of 55 . 88 feet. J. Fitch: Thank you . G. Totman: Now, with that, let the record show that on a flag lot nothing can be built in what we call the flag pole . Nothing can be built in there. Just so that you know for sure. M. Preston: Okay. G. Totman: Now we can move on to Robert Walpole who is next on the agenda. 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 Robert Walpole - Update on South Main Street Property - Paragon Enterprises - TM # 26- 1 - 25 R. Walpole: Back in 1988 G. Totman: Now we've got to give numbers and such as to what we're referring to for the minutes. R. Walpole: Okay, this is the Town of Groton, TM Parcel 26- 1 -25. Back in 1988, this outfit from New Jersey bought this and Ryan Survey did all the mapping back in 1988 and 1989. Well since then, this property has been resold again to Paragon Enterprises which is a foreign corporation with their offices in the Bahamas. They have, as you will recall we were in here a year ago, sold on the other side of the road three acres to Marchell Monuments that has built a new plant down here on Cayuga Street. They have been marketing this now for the last two or three years, either to sell it in larger units or building lots and we originally made a presentation to the Board years ago. They sent the Overseas Operation Manager here this year and they want to dump the property. There just is not a big demand here for big subdivisions. So we applied for a building permit and put one -- I think the map that you have, if you'll take a quick look -- the house burned years ago and there's the old pole barn that sits behind it. They applied for a building permit and it was granted by the Zoning Department and we have placed a mobile home there. G. Totman: That's on Lot 7? R. Walpole: Lot #7, which is still on the market for sale. There's been some interest in it. Lot #8, where the old garage is, which is to the east of where the house burned . . . V. Rankin: This is all on the east side of the road? R. Walpole: That's on the east side of the road, left-hand side as you're going toward the golf course . We have some interest in and a purchase offer will be signed on lot and the garage for people to , I believe, put a doublewide in there. C. Twigg: On that 250-foot frontage? R. Walpole: Yes. The next lot that we're looking at would be Lot #9 at this point for doing something with . Now they have no idea what they're gong to do out back. We've got some interest in large sections of this. What we have done in the Town of Locke, and I'm not sure -- I just want to brief you on what we've done in the Town of Locke . We went to the Locke Planning Board with 268 acres owned by the same outfit, on the old Parker farm. As soon as I say Parker farm, all of you know where basically that is. We have broken that up into five divisions with the idea that we are concentrating on Unit # 1 , which is this section here. What we have proposed to them -- now we have one person who looks like they'll buy the whole #5 so that will not be subdivided -- even though it's all under one tax map. C. Twigg: Which one is the house on? R. Walpole: Number 1 in the big subdivision here . So-- V. Rankin: That's on both sides of the road? R. Walpole: That's correct. At this point, after marketing this, the only activity we really have is on Lot # 1 . That's been all year. This is a market-driven age and we just don't know. So we aren't sure how you -- we're here tonight basically to tell you what we're looking at doing here -- we just don't know -- we could go bigger lots, we could go smaller. We're going back to the Planning Department in Locke again next month and it looks like they're going to go with this five units and we're going to concentrate on Unit 1 and come in every month as the purchase offers come in to either amend it or upgrade it in order to -- G. Totman: What has been their initial comment on that? Have they seen this? 8 M. Carey: That would be the lower half along where that home has been put? R. Walpole: No, that's over in here toward the Village. This land lays in the Village, plus there's another 18 acres that -- I'm not in a position to really talk about it. They're talking about 9 to 10 building lots along the road . They're talking about leaving 150-foot strips along the road so they can get up in there and sell it as one unit. Or we just get back with a plan -- the engineers have a sketch plan and will put it on a map so we can have something like this for the next meeting. What we're concerned about now, and we haven't triggered any subdivision because we haven't sold anything out there --- but we obviously want to keep the Board informed of what our plan is here so that the Code Enforcement man knows exactly from a building permit standpoint that we are complying with the rules and regulations of the Town. Right now, we're concentrating just on 7, 8 and 9. Ten and 11 , we've had them on the market two or three years and there's no bites on them. We are starting to get a little activity on 7. 8 -- 8 definitely will have a purchase offer signed on it. G. Totman: You're looking for a subdivision for 7, 8 and 9? R. Walpole: Basically -- we don't need to go for it tonight. 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 G. Totman: So it's in all possibility and reality that you will be in at the October meeting with this. Obviously, you're not making that proposal tonight, so -- what I'm thinking about is whoever wants to buy that, it doesn't look like they'll put anything on it this year. R. Walpole: Oh, yes. G. Totman: But if we bring it up on the third Thursday in October and if the Board votes to have a public hearing, that won't be until the third Thursday in November -- and that's Thanksgiving. R. Walpole: I understand. G. Totman: I'm just thinking ahead on it. Maybe we should be looking at something else, or whatever. R. Walpole: But even if there's a three-unit subdivision, technically -- - G. Totman: Okay. Right now -- M. Carey: When you were in a few years ago, did we do any type of subdivision on this? G. Totman: No, we just talked about it. Right now it shows this as a separate lot, but it's not. It shows the way it's going to be. If he sells Lot 8, it will look like this. Then he triggers a subdivision in the next sale . R. Walpole: I just wanted to keep the Board informed . If they see the signs there, at least the Building Inspector is aware that we've been here and that we're going to be going by this, and that you people have knowledge of it and then we'll make it official . But right now we can sell a piece of land off of it because we haven't triggered a subdivision yet. But we also want it to fit in the plan that you have in front of you so you are aware of what's going on there . We can also bring in the overall master plan if you'd like. But then, again, it's market driven. Co Twigg: It just never went anywhere. I thought that guy when he bought that place there of Parker's, I thought he got a pretty good deal on it. Looked to me like he'd come out of that pretty good . R. Walpole: We'll be in next month with a formal application. Glenn Munson H - Walpole Road - TM # 221 -3-2. 2 - 14. 155± A G. Totman: This land that we're talking about now is on Walpole Road and it's owned by Glenn Munson II -- George, you've seen this? -- it's TP #221 -3-2 . 2 . B. Davison: Total of 14+ acres. G. Totman: 14 + . 155 acres. I could try to explain this to you , but as long as Bruce is here -- and for you people who don't know this fellow, his name is Bruce Davison. He's a surveyor out of Cortland, and he's representing the Munsons. B. Davison: I've drawn in the proposed one-acre parcel around the existing trailer/ double wide. G. Totman: Nothing they have shows where the trailer -- on Walpole Road, the second lot up from Route 38. The first one is Prinz. M. Carey: This is the corner of Walpole Road? B. Davison: Where it says Cotd, that's all like lawn area. He has a septic system over there; he lives across the road. He bought that and he has a sewer line running over to a septic system across the road -- that's what the dotted line is. C. Twigg: He doesn't live too far from the municipal one does he? 10 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September .1996 B. Davison: This is the Village of Groton and here is the treatment plant. I don't know which. one was put in first. G. Totman: Anyway, the reasoning for this, as I understand it, is that trailer that's there now belongs to Glenn Munson and that's where his first wife lived. And she's buying a house in a development here in Groton and they've got to separate this off so that they can sell that out. But the road frontage is only 102 feet, correct? C. Twigg: You can see it right here on this on Walpole Road . M. Carey: Oh, this isn't the whole piece that we're talking about then . They just want to sell this. V. Rankin: Which part do you want to sell now? M. Carey: So the back will be wider than the front? B. Davison: Yes, V. Rankin: This is the lot here? B. Davison: This is the lot we're asking for approval on -- 1 .083 acres with the house shown on it. M. Carey: Cote owns all the rest of that property there? B . Davison: Right. G. Totman: Time out. We have a completely different situation here than we had with the other one . Let me read to you why I say this. Because you're talking about a flag lot here -- something less than 150 feet. B. Davison: Glenn's understanding was we had to come here tonight and this was going to get turned down by you and then we would apply to the Zoning Board of Appeals. G. Totman: That's what I told him on the phone . Well, I told him on the phone there was no way we could pass this. One of the things I had forgotten about, though , when I was talking to Glenn -- I think I'm getting senile and old and ought to resign -- was -- let me read the definition of a flag lot. "It may be approved by the Planning Board whenever the land involved is of a peculiar shape or size . . . . ." let me go a little farther -- "Flag lots should not be used to avoid the construction of roads if the construction of a road is feasible . The dimensions and regulations for flag lots are as follows : " Section 276. 2 -- "The minimum lot area for a flag lot shall be twice the area of a conventional lot. " -- which means it's got to be at least two acres. B. Davison: I didn't know that. I made it one , but we can make it two . We can make an arbitrary line out back. G. Totman: Right. But by reading this, when you go to the Zoning Board of Appeals, you want to show them the two acres and they're going to read this. So do this first. We can't pass this -- we only passed the one that was close to what it was. Five feet or something like that. And the other one I read from is 10 feet. This is a lot different. You know you're going to take this to the ZBA. You knew it before you came in here . B. Davison: We assumed that. G. Totman: Before you take it to them, make sure it's two acres. You read this right here . B. Davison: No, I believe you . G. Totman : The Town Board wanted that extra put in there, I guess, to discourage flag lots. Because if you'll remember, we had a hard time getting the flag lots through and that's the way it was. 11 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 B. Davison: Probably some of it was because the area of the strip -- some people were using that as part of the one acre . And then they get out --- G. Totman : But in most towns, all they cared about was usable -- the proper use of land. If you've got land out there and somebody wants to buy out there, they've got a 20-foot flag pole down through there, what's the difference if you've got an acre out front or an acre out back? C. Twigg: You can use the pole as part of the two acres. M. Carey: Oh, no. No you can't. C. Twigg: You just can't build in it. M. Carey: No. I don't think you can use it as part of the two acres. B. Davison: Is there a maximum length on the pole? C. Twigg: A thousand feet. G. Totman: Section 276 . 2 says the flag pole shall not be considered as part of the acreage. M. Carey: But how can ZBA grant a variance on that flag pole at 102 feet? G. Totman: What is a variance? Something other than normal. M. Carey: Okay. G. Senter: I'm trying to figure out what reason I have to deny you . M. Carey: Not enough road frontage . B. Davison: They have to deny me. G. Senter: I'm the person that has to deny you . But to do that, you need a building permit -- for what? B . Davison: There's already a building there. G. Senter: But Lyle won't take it unless I have a denial. M. Carey: How did this lot become -- because we never did this lot. Was it a grandfathered lot -- was it there B. Davison: The road frontage isn't where the house is . G. Senter: They can come in from the side if the want to. As long as they own the land . M. Carey: Well, the other choice is to get a flag lot off from 38 . G. Totman: I think if you talk to Lyle, Lyle Raymond is the chairman of the Zoning Board of Appeals. I think he will tell you that the State law has been changed. It was the State law at one time that said only rejection from the Code Enforcement Officer goes to the Zoning Board of Appeals. That has been changed now because of situations like this. G. Senter: That makes sense. G. Totman: So people can go to the Appeals Board to get variances so that they can create a lot, or whatever, that might not be quite according to the Ordinance . George is right. It always used to be that the only way you can get to the Appeals Board is through a rejection by George. But the State law has been changed on that. And all these other ordinances were written up according to the State law. I 12 r Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 know Lyle understands that. What you have to do is get a copy of the Appeals thing from George, request for Appeals, and turn it into George or Carol and they will call Mr. Raymond and he'll set up a public hearing. G. Senter: George is right, because there's no other vehicle to get that appealed . G. Totman: Glenn wants to get this settled up because ( 1) he's moved out of the state, and (2) he's trying to help his ex-wife get moved. And in order to clear this up so they can sell it and the new buyer can buy it through the bank, he's got to have it so it's a legal lot. So he hired Bruce to come in and represent him. In the meantime , I talked to him over the phone and explained to him what our dilemma was and I think he understands it. Apparently he does because of the way Bruce just presented it. G. Senter: George, is there an alternative to this? What if he took 150 foot of road frontage up here on Walpole Road -- other side of the creek -- and bring the line across here? G. Totman: That would be giving it a lot more land though . That would kill this lot for sale here. G. Senter: It's kind of a wet lot down there anyway, isn't it? B. Davison: It could be filled in. G. Senter: How about if you draw a line from here to there, right straight across, George? That would give him all this to sell. I don't think it's even buildable land down there myself. G. Totman : See, he's giving her this piece of property. You're saying give her all this. G. Senter: Yes, give her all that. G. Totman: That would kill -- well, you still got 500 feet -- you can't get to this road here. There's a big bank, it's steep. B. Davison: You might be able to get off here . I was looking at that tonight. G. Totman: What George is talking about is getting to that land off of Route 38 . B . Davison: Glenn said that if anybody would be interested in this it might be Cote and if we make a lot around this piece . . . . G. Totman: So, looking at all that, what does the Planning Board want to do with this? M. Carey: We can't do much of anything. C. Twigg: What can we do? We can't do anything. G. Totman: Do you want to make an action? C. Twigg: We've got to turn it down. G. Totman: For what reason? And I'm asking for the minutes now. C. Twigg: Because there's not enough road frontage for a lot and it's too much road frontage for a flag lot. G. Totman: And we don't have the authority to change that. It's because the property is really boxed in by the other neighbors. I did talk to Mr. Munson about talking to Miss Prinz and see if he could buy 48 feet off f here. And he said that that discussion has already happened and he doesn't think it's possible . That would have made that lot a legal lot. For whatever reason, I don't know. The other alternative I can see is to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals. I see absolutely nothing wrong with making that a legal lot. It's been considered a separate lot all these years. But the crazy way our 13 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September IL996 Ordinance is set up means we can't do it. And if we did do something as gross as that is from the Ordinance , somebody that didn't like what we did could come back and null and void it. Co Twigg: Now when the Zoning Board of Appeals takes this on, they may not call that a flag lot. G. Totman: They might just give a variance . C. Twigg: If they just give a variance, then your acreage is okay. B. Davison: Right. I think that's the way it should be appealed . G. Senter: And if Lyle doesn't know about that State law, have him call George. G. Totman: I know he knows about it. Now, you've got the form there. You bring it into Carol and Carol will call him and he'll get in contact with you . M. Carey: I make a motion deny the application made by Mr. Munson . V. Rankin: I second it. G. Totman: All those in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) M. Carey: Let's get on with the minutes of last month's meeting. Did everybody read the minutes of the last meeting? G. Totman: Before we do the minutes, we all had a job to do at the last meeting and make a report back at this meeting. What are the people's comments about the revisions that the committee we appointed to go over the Ordinance and pick out the things that we wanted to change? From last meeting to this meeting, everybody was supposed to read them and make suggestions tonight to either accept them or ask for more thorough study to be put on them, or volunteer to be on the committee to do it, or give the committee the okay to take it to the Town Board . M. Carey: I'll make a motion that you guys did a good enough job and obviously. . . . . G. Totman: Did anybody read them? M. Carey: I glanced through them last month . C. Twigg: Yes, I re-read them. G. Totman : Does anybody have any comments about them? Sheldon? Did you read them? Do you have any comments? M. Carey: Were we going to put an acreage size? Right now, on the flag lots, it says twice the size of a normal lot. Do we want to put one acre, two acres? Do we want to put a limit on that? Because the way the Ordinance reads now, remember, we had a discussion on this last month as to whether. . . . G. Totman: Well, it's not being suggested in this change. C. Twigg: Shouldn't we change that, though, to read two acres rather than twice the size? Weren't we going to change that verbiage? G. Totman: It should be twice the area of a conventional lot -- a conventional lot is one acre. M. Carey: Didn't we want to put in that it was going to be two acres? G. Totman: What's the difference? C. Twigg: But if somebody didn't know that a conventional lot was one acre -- they'd have to look up something else . 14 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 G. Totman: I think the reason it was done that way, if you'll remember, is where you have public water and public sewer in that area, the conventional lot might be smaller. M. Carey: Okay, okay. C. Twigg: I get it. All right. G. Totman: So then it would be twice that area and you would be defeating your own purpose if you did it in those areas. C. Tw%g: Most of the flag lots are bigger anyhow. G. Totman : Most of the, yes. From what I'm hearing, then, is -- and if that's the case, we have to present it to them at the Board meeting. Who would like to present this to the Town Board? M. Carey: I think I should abstain because I have a relative on the Town Board, G. Totman : Now come on now. M. Carey: Plus I have to milk cows that evening so he can get to the Board meeting. I didn't work on this. G. Totman: Whoever does it, Lyle Raymond has volunteered to do it with that person . C. Twigg: I guess I could do it. G. Totman: Let the minutes show that on the second Monday of October, October 14th , you, Cecil, and Mr. Raymond, if he's in Town, will present this to the Town Board. M. Carey: If it's on after 9 o'clock, then I could come. G. Totman: I will ask for that to be put on the agenda on October 14th, C. Twigg: Do we have to do any more before then? G. Totman: That's why I asked . As far as the committee is concerned , they are ready to present it to the Town Board unless the Planning Board wanted to make changes. That being the case, a copy of each one of these will go to each Town Board member before the meeting so they ll have it ahead of time before you present it to them. So unless I hear different and with all that done, I will take up approval of the August minutes. Approval of Minutes - Meeting of August 15, 1996 G. Totman : Has everybody read the August minutes? C. Twigg: I read them in their entirety. V. Rankin: I read them but I don't remember what they were about. They came a couple weeks ago. C. Twigg: I move we approve them as presented . G. Totman: Verl moves we approve the minutes as presented. Do I hear a second? C. Twigg; Yes. I second the motion. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) Passed . V. Rankin: I move we adjourn . 15 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 19 September 1996 S. Clark: I'll second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) The meeting is adjourned. The meeting was adjourned at 9:25 p.m . Respectfully submitted, i 4� oan E. Fitch Recording Secretary 16