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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1996-10-17 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING Thursday, 17 October 1996 Board Members (*absent) Others Present George Totman, Chairman Joan E. Fitch , Recording Secretary Monica Carey George Senter, Town CEO *Sheldon Clark Don & Margaret Palmer *Jeff Lewis Gary Mandrino Verl Rankin Peter Clark, Katherine Wolf, Cecil Twigg Michael & Jessica Clark George VanSlyke The meeting was called to order at 8 :05 p.m. by Chairman George Totman, G. Totman: We'll call the meeting to order now that Cecil Twigg has arrived. We will dispense with the approval of minutes as long as we've got people waiting for us to act and we're starting late . We'll start off with the Site Plan Review of the Tri-County Horseshoe Club . Tri-County Horseshoe Club, Inc. - Locke Road - TM Parcel # 221 -2- 1 . 2 G. Totman: I believe there's a person here who wants to speak on this, correct? G. Mandrino: I thought you were going to ask me questions. G. Totman : Everybody has got in the mail ahead of time your proposal and your application . And before you speak, I catch it if I don't ask you to give your name, address, and who you represent, because this lady back here wants to know. G. Mandrino: I'm Gary Mandrino and I live at 365 Locke Road, Groton, and I'm the President of the Tri-County Horseshoe Club, Inc . J. Fitch: Thank you . G. Totman: Are you all familiar with where he's taking about? Do you have any questions? This is a Site Plan Review. You must have some questions, because you don't know what he's going to do. There's more to this than just plain horseshoes. V. Rankin: Okay, what is there besides horseshoes? G. Mandrino: We figured that in order to pay the bills we'd have to have other uses like maybe jamborees. Maybe in the summertime when we wouldn't be using it for horseshoes we could use it for a flea market area to help bring in some revenue to pay the taxes. The space would be used for horseshoes in the wintertime . C. Twigg: Would this be inside? G. Mandrino: Yes, it's lighted, heated, and we'd have our own restrooms. C. Twigg: And the flea market would be inside? And the jamboree would be indoors? G. Mandrino: The jamborees, big fundraisers -- we need a big place to hold a wedding or something like that. G. Totman: I assume that from what I've seen down there so far that you have approval from the Health Department on your septic systems? 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 G. Mandrino: No. G. Totman: You don't? Did you get a building permit? G. Mandrino: We're working on it. G. Senter: He has not gotten a building permit yet, George. G. Mandrino: No. G. Totman: And you're building it? G. Mandrino: Time's running out and they want to get it up before snow flies. G. Totman: It's a good thing you're not in my town. G. Mandrino: We have four acres of land that was given to us by a neighbor, and I assume this would be adequate area for parking and stuff. It must be at least 150 feet back from the road. C. Twigg: Must be more than that -- four hundred, four or five hundred. G. Mandrino: The building itself. C. Twigg: Oh, the building. G. Mandrino: It's sitting from the road. Probably the only lighting would be security lights outside. There won't be any flashing neon signs. C. Twigg: You have to get past George Senter for those anyhow. G. Mandrino: Yes, G. Totman: Well, not really. George is responsible for signs, but we're responsible for making sure that what they're doing is conducive to that area in which he's involved, and in our Site Plan Review we're supposed to make sure that he's got offstreet parking, that any lights would not be offensive to the road, and what we set up as guidelines is what George (Senter) has to go and check on to make sure that he's meeting our guidelines. C. Twigg: But not for the signs. G. Totman: Not for the signs. (People arrived at this point, so the meeting halted, and then started again) . But that's what we have to look for, Gary, to make sure you've got enough offstreet parking and designate it on your plan review where it's going to be, and when we get all done, and you agree that you can live by the Planning Board's stipulations---it will be on something like this and we'll do it tonight if we can . But when the permit is issued, those will be written on the permit so George Senter, or whoever the Code Enforcement Officer may be , has to check to make sure you're following those rules and guidelines, that's all. C. Twigg: It doesn't have in the Site Plan Review or site plan sketch , sketch plan review -- G. Totman: Well, you've got a sketch plan of the parcel -- we can throw that in. And what we agree on tonight we can write it in like we do with everybody else and say there's got to be no offstreet parking, the parking obviously is -- from what I see the operation is, it's probably going to be in the front. G. Mandrino: Yes. C. Twigg: Where's the building supposed to sit on this parcel? 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 G. Totman: In relation to the end of the line where it says "cornfield, " where is the building going to sit? G. Van Slyke: Your property is here, to the right. 38 is down to the bottom here . G. Mandrino: The building is sitting right in here . G. Totman: Gary, look at it this way here . This is Route 38. The building, I assume, is going to be right about in here like this? G. Mandrino: Well, it's back a little farther. My property line is -- it's just about to the back edge of my property line, so it's probably about 85 feet in here --- G. Totman: Well, if we draw a line like this and go back here, how far is the building from the road? G. Mandrino: From the road? I'm just guessing 150 to 200 feet probably. G. Totman: 150 plus. Okay, so you've got the building here like this -- G. Mandrino: More this way -- it's a good 85 feet from this line over here . G. Totman: It's more like this, then? Then the parking is like this over here like this? Down here, in front of the building. Okay. G. Van Slyke: Is this your property here? G. Mandrino: Yes, C. Twigg: That's 213 feet, and it's behind that. G. Mandrino: The front edge of the building is pretty close to that, yes. C. Twigg: So you're 200 feet. And the parking's up here? G. Mandrino: Yes, parallel with 38. (All discuss logistics at same time. No way to get individual dialogue.) G. Totman: I drew it like this and he said it's wrong. I drew it the way I thought I saw it. George says he sees it my way. Now you're the one who's doing it and you say it's this way. So which way is it? It's parallel to the road isn't it? G. Mandrino: Not really parallel; it's more north and south . G. Totman: North and south is like this. C. Twigg: No, no. G. Mandrino: No , this is 38, and 38 runs north and south . G. Totmaw This is your land over here? G. Mandrino: Yes, G. Totman: And your residence is over here? G. Mandrino: This is my residence here. C. Twigg: Restaurant. 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 G. Mandrino: The restaurant's over here . G. Totman: Okay, the restaurant's over here . I'm sorry, that was me. G. Senter: He's right. (More conversation between those present, all at the same time. Unable to discern one from the other.) G. Totman: I was right the first time, George . Now you write it in there. G. Senter: That's right, George , the way this is. G. Van Slyke: Okay, so this is 38 up here, right? G. Totman: I looked at it about an hour ago . (More conversation going on at both ends of table ; unable to separate. ) G. Totman: This is where you live ; this is where the restaurant is, down here. G. Van Slyke: This is 38 here? G. Totman: I want to know how far it is off of 38. C. Twigg: The building is right up in here about like this. G. Mandrino: It must be about 200 feet off the road . V. Rankin: I know where it is when I go by, but not on a piece of paper. G. Mandrino: He said it was 213 feet to here , so it's somewhere around 200 feet. G. Totman: We're going to say 200 plus. Okay. C. Twigg: What's all this down in behind here? G. Mandrino: The whole field is open. The property line goes to the woods. It's all open field. G. Totman : Are you the closest neighbor? G. Mandrino: Me, Peterson, and Melvin Luthor who gave us the land . And Neville's-- - G. Totman: No, I'm talking about residence -- you're the closest residence? G. Mandrino: Yes, I'm on the property line , and Peterson or Chaffee, I'm not sure what's on the map there -- G. Totman : Chaffee . G. Mandrino: --borders it, and Melvin Luthor borders it on the south side . G. Totman : Okay. And on the back side is Neville . Okay. And these people are well aware of what you're doing. Obviously, it's been going on a couple, three weeks. G. Mandrino: I've been working on it and everybody knows what's going on . And Peterson and Neville have donated stuff. G. Van Slyke: So they're going to park in here, then. This is where the parking will be? 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 G. Totman: This is all open land through here, George. And the building is about half built out there right now. It's a pole type construction. So if we give a permit for this, we are giving a permit for -- we're not giving a building permit, we're giving a permit for somebody to have an activity of a horseshoe club where they would have banquets and fundraising activities, with all offstreet parking. That's a busy road and there's no way you can allow for offstreet parking on that road. G. Mandrino: That's why we went back so far is to have plenty of offstreet parking. G. Totman: The reason I say it that way, Gary, is that if somebody calls up someday and says they're parking up and down the road here, it would be illegal. It would be anyway because the road is not that wide and is not conducive to offstreet parking on that road. G. Van Slyke: Onstreet parking. Isn't that what you want to say? Not offstreet. G. Totman: No onstreet parking, you're right. I've made this same mistake before. He got the message . Anybody got any questions, observations? George? G. Senter: I have no problem. It's a permissible activity there . Are you guys going to say anything about landscaping, hours of operation, and this? C. Twigg: There isn't anything they want to hide there. It's not going to be offensive to anyone driving by, so they don't have to have any berm around it. G. Mandrino: It's a gray finish to the building; we got the steel in today. It's not going to be a bright red stick-out building. G. Totman: You are planning on having restrooms? G. Mandrino: Yes, G. Totman: You're not planning on having a kitchen? G. Mandrino: No, maybe just a room to cook a hamburger or something if we have a tournament or something. G. Totman: What I mean is a G. Mandrino: Not a restaurant restaurant, no . No liquor license . G. Totman: No onsite sale of beverages. So if we should pass this and stipulate in there that there would be no beverages sold on the property -- G. Mandrino: Soda would be okay. G. Totman: No alcoholic beverages sold on the property unless the proper licenses were obtained -- it's a given anyway, you know that. G. Mandrino: For a jamboree we would have to get a permit for that day. G. Totman: Okay, just so that we are -- see, we're responsible to the people of the area and that's why I'm -- I'm not trying to be picayune . And that the permit would show that you would have to provide for all parking onsite , and that the hours of operation, on weekends, would not be before 8 o'clock in the morning and would close by 8 o'clock at night. No, maybe not 8 o'clock at night for horseshoes. G. Mandrino: Not if we have a league at night, and we plan on having it one or two nights of the week for a league. G. Totman: What's the latest you get done? 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 G. Mandrino: It would probably be 10 o'clock. G. Totman: Ten o'clock, okay. C. Twigg: What difference does it make if it's midnight? G. Totman : See, he's a neighbor now, and the other neighbor agrees with this type of thing. Two years from now you might have two different neighbors there , and they might want to go to bed at night and not hear a lot of hollering and screaming out there. G. Mandrino: That's one reason we put it back so far is so it wouldn't be offensive -- if I wanted to sell my place, I didn't want the building right -- to look out my kitchen window and see it. G. Totman: You couldn't sell your house if it was like that. We only put in hours of operation -- that's the only thing else we've got. C. Twigg: I think a club like that, to hold it down to 10 o'clock -- I don't know why you'd hold it to 10 o'clock. I mean, the bar right across the street don't close at 10 o'clock. G. Totman: Okay. What I'm trying to do is create conversation. You guys are sitting here not saying anything. C. Twigg: I'm saying something. You're not listening. You keep telling me 10 o'clock. I think you're full of prune juice. I see no reason to hold hours down to 10 o'clock in a building back out 200 feet from the road - - G. Totman: Okay, give me your version of what we should set in the rules. C. Twigg: Well, I don't know why you need a time limit on it. I mean the activity's going to be inside the building. It isn't like they're having a big bang-bang outdoors. V. Rankin: But there are people nearby. G. Van Slyke: And there will be driving in and out. V. Rankin: And they're not too far away. G. Mandrino: We have talked about putting some outside courts in, but you would definitely have to play during the day -- G. Totman: Unless you put up lights. C. Twigg: But I don't know why you would want to put time limits on it. I see no reason for putting time limits on it. Unless they are going to have some kind of an activity outdoors. I mean, all the activity's inside . G. Totman: During the week, Gary, what kind of activity do you expect to have during the weekdays? G. Mandrino: Leagues at night. G. Totman: Nothing during the day? G. Mandrino: Occasional -- if somebody want to go in -- just something to do in an afternoon. G. Totman: I mean tournaments and stuff like that. G. Mandrino: There probably would be some tournaments during the day too. G. Totman: Weekdays? 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 G. Mandrino: Oh, no, not weekdays. Probably like a league at night and, if we can get the people , two or three leagues. G. Van Slyke : So it's not going to be like open horseshoes where anybody in the neighborhood can come in. G. Mandrino: Well, if we did set hours for people to come in, then somebody would be there to unlock the door and make sure they weren't tearing the place apart or something. G. Van Slyke: So really, it's just your group that's going to be using this facility then, at this point? G. Mandrino: Yes, at this point. G. Van Slyke: Are your plans to have somebody there all the time and have it open to the public to come in and shoot horseshoes if they wanted to, or -- G. Mandrino: Yes, it might cost you like three bucks --- G. Totman: Let me just, if I may, Cecil -- our job is to do a Site Plan Review -- to find out what they're proposing to do and to set up some kind of guidelines. Our job here as a Planning Board is to set up some kind of guidelines so the public knows what's going on, what they can expect in the area, and what the Code Enforcement Officer is supposed to be looking for. And if we don't set any rules and regulations, and if we don't do anything, then I don't feel how you can say we said to the public that we've done our job . C. Twigg: In other words, if we don't nail him a little bit or cause him some pain, they don't figure we've done anything. G. Totman: No, that's -- I'll do what the Board wants to do, but I'm just trying to explain to you what a Planning Board is supposed to be doing. I'm sorry. C. Twigg: And we're doing it. We're letting the guy play horseshoes out there. I can't believe that playing horseshoes out there 200 feet from the road -- G. Totman: At 2 o'clock in the morning - - C. Twigg: At 2 o'clock in the morning, or 3 o'clock in the morning, or at midnight, or at 3 o'clock in the afternoon -- that anybody is going to --- G. Totman: Then you run the meeting and set your own rules then, okay? I'm serious. We got a job to do, Cecil -- C. Twigg: Do it. G. Totman : And we should do it. C. Twigg: I'm on record as saying I don't think there ought to be any guidelines. Now what the rest of you -- who else has got - - G. Totman: What do you think a Planning Board is for? Why are we setting Site Plan Reviews? I can't understand where you're coming from. C. Twigg: I don't see as how we've got to cause anybody pain -- G. Totman : I'm not trying to -- we're not causing Gary a bit of pain if we tell him that those things have to stop when his restaurant closes. He doesn't want to be there after that hour anyway. That's not causing him pain . C. Twigg: Why do we regulate something that doesn't need regulating? 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 V. Rankin: Well, I think it does . C. Twigg: All right, speak up . G. Totman: Gary, would that be a problem with you? G. Mandrino: If we had to close up at 1 o'clock in the morning? V. Rankin: Midnight, G. Mandrino: We'd be out of there way before that. G. Totman: That's what I'm getting at, really. I don't understand. Board members, please, give me a decision . V. Rankin: Well, I say midnight is long enough. G. Van Slyke: You probably wouldn't want them there at 5 o'clock in the morning starting to shoot horseshoes or driving in there , right? G. Totman: If we say you don't start -- as I understand it, and Gary correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not in any way at all trying to affect what you're trying to do -- I'm trying to just do our type of job -- if, just for example, just pick a time -- do you ever know when your club starts before 9 o'clock in the morning? I mean, if we just said for the purpose of having something here, that the hours would not be before 9 o'clock and they would end by midnight, would that make any difference to your operation? G. Mandrino: Possibly, if we got into a big tournament where you have to get in there to prepare -- G. Totman: Then suppose I said 9 o'clock in the morning on weekdays, and 8 o'clock in the morning on weekends? G. Mandrino: That would be fine . G. Totman: Just so that we show that we're trying to do something. C. Twigg: Just make George happy. He's just got to do something. G. Totman: I don't care if we don't do anything, Cecil --- C. Twigg: He's got to do something or he's not happy. G. Totman: You make a resolution, Cecil, and we'll see if it passes. V. Rankin: I move we put these hours in . What you said. C. Twigg: Make a resolution then . You got to have a resolution to move on . G. Van Slyke : We need to have a motion here. G. Totman: I'm looking for a motion. V. Rankin: I'm making the motion. G. Totman: The hours -- we've got to do those first. Weekdays, 9 a.m. to midnight. Weekends, 8 a.m. to midnight. Now that's what he said he could live with . Is that correct? G. Mandrino: Yes. 8 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 G. Totman: We mentioned no alcoholic beverages sold on the premises without the proper license. We're going to put that in here , but you know that anyway. He runs a restaurant and he knows what the rules are on that. But if anybody wants to go in and look and say what did you guys do, we're telling him he's got to follow the rules of the State of New York, that's all. C. Twigg: So the fool will know that we did something. G. Totman: Otherwise , there's no sense holding these meetings. And no offstreet parking. G. Van Slyke : No -- no onstreet parking. Co Twigg: He's really trying to put the binders on you , you know. M. Palmer: No offsite parking. G. Totman: No offsite parking. That's what I wanted to say. C. Twigg: In other words, they can't park over to the bar and shoot horseshoes. G. Totman: Wait a minute -- Cecil's right. C. Twigg: If we get these rules down, you better follow them. When he goes over to the horseshoe place, he better drive his car over there. Don't leave it over to the bar. Because there's no offsite parking. G. Totman: No onstreet parking, Okay, Verl made a motion that we approve this, excluding -- correct me if I'm wrong, Verl -- Verl Rankin made the motion that we bypass the public hearing and approve the horseshoe tournament type building where they might also possibly hold wedding parties, picnics, or whatever there , and mainly for the Tri-County Horseshoe Club to hold their annual outings. The hours would be weekdays, 9 a.m. to midnight, weekends 8 a.m. to midnight, no alcoholic beverages sold on premises without proper license , and no onstreet parking. Do I hear a second to that. M. Carey: I'll second it. G. Totman: Any other questions? Anybody want to vote no? C. Twigg: Yes, G. Totman: Okay, Cecil's against it. Let the record show that. Everyone else in favor? (All other Board members present indicated they were in favor: Carey, Van Slyke, and Rankin) . Okay, that's it. We've got other things to do. Now is that something you can live with, because I see no problem with what you're trying to do at all. You understand where I'm coming from I'm sure. C. Twigg: I think you regulated something that doesn't need regulating. He's making the regulations so he can tell the people what a fine job he's done. G. Van Slyke: Do we do the Environmental Assessment, George? G. Totman: No we didn't. C. Twigg: He's a typical politician . G. Mandrino: Are you all done with me, George? C. Twigg: We got regulations enough in this world -- G. Totman: No, we got one more thing. Cecil -- I think we ought to have a meeting. You're talking in front of the public about a job that we're supposed to be doing, and you're making a mockery out of the chairman. And I really think we ought to have a special meeting to find out should we carry on 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 with the Planning Board. I'm serious. You're making a mockery out of this whole thing. These people are serious. They come here because they were told to. They came here because they were told to, Cecil. C. Twigg: No, George -- G. Totman: We're doing what the law requires us to do. It's not me. C. Twigg: We've done it. G. Totman: So why are you making fun of it? C. Twigg: What I said was -- G. Totman: You told me I was being political about it, and I'm not. I'm sorry about that. C. Twigg: All right. What I said was that I think we are regulating something that doesn't need regulating. G. Totman: Look -- our Ordinance, that you helped write , tells us that we got to do this. C. Twigg: But we don't have to set a time limit on it. G. Totman: No? If we don't have to set any limits, then why do we do it? C. Twigg: That was my question. G. Totman : But it's in the Ordinance, Cecil, that we're supposed to do it. C. Twigg: To set time limits? G. Totman: Well, forget it. It's not good public relations. I'm sorry. You accused me of being political about this and I think that's out of order. I am not a political type person to do this. And we've been doing this with everybody that's come before this Board. And this is the first time you've ever brought that up . C. Twigg: And I think this is the first time we've ever had a situation like this . G. Totman: George, would you do the SEQR please? Every time the Planning Board makes an action or declares an action, we're supposed to do a SEQR review -- a Short Environmental Form to conform with the State Environmental Law. And if we declare this a negative action, then it doesn't go any farther. You've heard of other towns and villages where they've gone into long-form SEQR -- Wal- Mart in Ithaca is a good example of that -- they declared all that. Well, every action a governmental body makes, whether it's the Town Board, Planning Board, or whatever, they have to do a SEQR action. And that's what we're going to be doing now. It's a bureaucratic thing, but we have to do it; otherwise, if we didn't do it, and somebody knew about it, they could declare a 78 and make your action null and void. So we have to do it and it's one of the things we have to go through. George - - Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part II of the Short Environmental Assessment Form, Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part He Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Monica Carey, seconded by Cecil Twigg, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration. G. Totman: Thank you. V. Rankin: Maybe we should do these people who have the children here. G. Totman: We are. 10 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 Peter Clark & Katherine Wolf - 194 Old Peruville Road - TM # 164 -7 . 9 G. Totman: I didn't realize that you were going to be here, so I am trying to see what we have to approve next. Normally, I look this way up ahead of time. P. Clark: 1 can probably summarize quickly. I'm Peter Clark and my residence is 194 Old Peruville Road. The parcel is partly farmland that we bought to put our house on. We have divided off an approximately seven-acre parcel which has been sold and is not subject to a review. We are now making a second division, cutting off approximately three acres. There are no issues of road frontage, drainage -- it'll be used for residential purposes, the adjacent property is residential in use. M. Carey: How many total acres are we talking about? 21 . 6? K. Wolf: Are you talking about the subdivision, or the whole piece . M. Carey: The whole piece . K. Wolf: The part that's left after the piece that was -- the original parcel when we bought it was 28.09, and then the first part that was taken off was 7.3 acres, so that leaves 21 . And when this subdivision is done, that will leave 18 . 7 acres. M. Carey: Do you think you will subdivide that 18 part? P. Clark: We'd like to just sell it as a piece. K. Wolf: In terms of the lay of the land, it would be possible to do one more subdivision, but -- G. Totman: Do you have a buyer for it now? K. Wolf: The piece we're talking about now, yes. M. Carey: B on our map . G. Totman: Just in case everybody didn't pick it up, they sold one lot off, which is legal, and now they want to sell another off and go and reside in their new home and not worry about that up there. And so what happens to that lot after they sell it -- if they want to divide it off or whatever -- that person would have to come to us. K. Wolf: The 18. 5 acres we'd have to come back for. G. Totman: Oh, you're going to come back for that one. P. Clark: If we ever had to. K. Wolf: We will try to sell it as a piece . G. Totman: Okay. But you do have a buyer for the one you've got marked off now? K. Wolf: Yes, G. Totman: And it's got enough road frontage; it's got enough acreage -- P. Clark: It's a normal shape. G. Totman : I have no problem if no one else does. M. Carey: So, basically, the piece that you're selling off will kind of even off -- K. Wolf: That's the reason we drew the line that way -- so we wouldn't have any more strange lines, 11 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 M. Carey: Okay. No, I have no problems with that. C. Twigg: When you sold off this first one, it was off the top of the page here? K. Wolf: Yes, at the top -- C. Twigg: 7. 3 acres. I see. G. Van Slyke: Do you want to do the assessment before? G. Totman: I think we can do it now. I don't think there's a controversy about this. G. Van Slyke : Do you want to do it before you make the motion? G. Totman: Let's do the Environmental now. G. Van Slyke: Okay, this is Part II -- for Clark & Wolf -- Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part H of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part He Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Verl Rankin, seconded by George Van Slyke, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration. V. Rankin: One little thing -- what's your wavy line down through here? P. Clark: That's the woods. M. Carey: I'll make a motion that we accept this subdivision as submitted. C. Twigg: I'll second it. G. Totman: We're accepting this subdivision, if we approve it, knowing that there's one large lot left, and whoever buys that large lot will also have to come to the Planning Board to do whatever they want to do with it if they buy it. Or if the present owners want to subdivide that, they've got to come back. Just so the record shows that. C. Twigg: Now if he sells that 18 acres to an individual P. Clark: That's us. We're continuing to own that. C. Twigg: You're going to keep that? K. WOle At the moment. C. Twigg: You said you wanted to sell it. P. Clark: We do . C. Twigg: So if you sell that, the new customer can sell a lot off of it without coming to us. G. Totman: That's exactly right. C. Twigg: He can sell one lot. G. Totman: Right. 12 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 C. Twigg: I thought you told him that the people that bought it had to come in to us for a subdivision if they did anything with it. G. Totman: Okay. I said if they wanted to subdivide it. One lot is not a subdivision. V. Rankin: Did you buy all the property up there? C. Twigg: What you people have done with it has nothing -- V. Rankin: Did you by all the Tyler (?) property? P. Clark: Yes, because Tyler was not interested in dividing it. We didn't want all that much but - M. Carey: I make a motion we approve the subdivision as submitted. G. Van Slyke: I'll second that. M. Carey. All those in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. G. Tatman: It was nice to meet you. Donald & Margaret Palmer - Pleasant Valley Road - TM # 32- 1 -25. 121 G. Tatman: Margaret Palmer - I remember her. M. Palmer: No, it's Donald Palmer; Margaret is just tagging along. G. Tatman: But who's the spokesman? M. Palmer: Donald . D. Palmer: I don't speak until I'm given permission to speak. G. Tatman: Very honestly, I hadn't looked at all this until I got here tonight, and that's not normal for me. But nevertheless, I happened to think -- I remember one time, and it really doesn't apply to you because you're on the Town Board and not the Planning Board, but we had a guy on the Planning Board once that every time we had a meeting he was here with either a subdivision or a boundary change or something. And we had the Town Board take him off the Planning Board. M. Palmer: It's running along with his election to the Town Board. G. Tatman: You know who I'm talking about? M. Palmer: Yes. I know who you're talking about. G. Tatman: Yes, sir, Mr. Palmer. V. Rankin: What do you want to do now, Don? D. Palmer: Well, we're looking to seek approval for a boundary change on land that abuts us on Pleasant Valley Road . We had already sold the parcel that has frontage on Pleasant Valley Road, and we're looking at parceling off about 3/ 10's of an acre on the back side so the folks can have more lawn area, basically, is what it comes down to . We own that land and all the land around it so they've asked if they can get some more lawn area and garden area, so we decided to extend that line back about 150 feet and square it off on the back side . We're on the west side. V. Rankin: The left side. C. Twigg: What have they got? A hundred foot of road frontage? 13 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October :1996 D. Palmer: It's a non-conforming lot right now that has a trailer on it. C. Twigg: So you're adding to a non-conforming lot. Can we allow that, George? G. Totman: You're making a non-conforming lot more conforming. You can't take a non- conforming lot and make it less non-conforming, but you can make it more conforming. M. Carey: Will this go all the way back so it's a straight line back? M. Palmer: It goes back 155 feet. M. Carey: And your parcel still goes back farther. C. Twigg: What's the length of his lot now? G. Van Slyke: About 215 . D. Palmer: 215 from the road. V. Rankin: If they want land, I move we give it to them. C. Twigg: I don't seem to understand why that would be a problem. You've got to come to us because of what? Because you've already sold some off? M. Palmer: No . It's required because it's a boundary change. It says in the code that any boundary change must come before the Planning Board , M. Carey: Now we were supposed to present something to the Town Board last week on this. Now did you? G. Totman: We asked the Town Board -- wait, one at a time -- we're trying to take minutes -- C. Twigg: It has to be a boundary change . That's why I was thinking why didn't you just sell it to him rather than have a boundary change, but you can't do that. M. Palmer: Because the code says it's a boundary change, we have to come before you. G. Totman: That was one of the things we asked the Town Board last Monday night, I hope. I hope that we asked them to change and give that authority to the Zoning Officer as long as they met the code ordinance , and I'm not sure what the Town Board is going to do with it, but -- D. Palmer: After we complete this order of business, we can go off record and we can address that. G. Totman: I would appreciate that, really. M. Palmer: You don't need to go off record, just go off our thing. G. Totman: Could we have your attention please while our distinguished member, Mr. Van Slyke, reads the SEAR review? M. Carey: We have to do a SEQR on just a boundary change? G. Totman: Any action we take -- M. Carey: That's an action. Okay. G. Van Slyke: Okay. Let's get it done. Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part II of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all 14 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 questions in Part 11. Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Cecil Twigg, seconded by Monica Carey, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration. C. Twigg: George, there's one thing I've been thinking about. You know, when George reads this thing off -- G. Totman : Yes, I'm listening, Cecil. C. Twigg: We all have a copy of this in front of us. Now if George went down through there and said go to C 2 , and we answered it, it would save us reading all this off every time, then C 3 . Would that be permissible? G. Totman: I'd like to respond to that because I have the same feeling that you do on that. C. Twigg: What? There's something wrong here somewheres, George . It seems so repetitious for him to -- G. Totmaw Wait a minute . You asked me a question, and I'm trying to answer it. I have the same feeling you do and I know that it's legal and you can put in the minutes, without even reading anything, that the Planning Board declared a negative dec. But those people that set there have no idea in the world what we're declaring. C. Twigg: But he's the only one who set there . G. Totman: No , I'm not talking about Don. I'm talking about -- C. Twigg: Who else is there? M. Carey: Clark and -- G. Totman: Boy, I tell you . Did you drink your supper tonight? Now I've been to lot of other boards, larger boards than ours or whatever, and they just put in there that a negative dec has been declared or it's been declared a Type II action, or something like that, but in all sincerity, even actions that don't require land actions or anything else -- like on the County Board, every action they take is a SEAR. But there they put in it's been declared a Type II action by the County Administrator, and it's not read like this. We could get through by saying we declared this action a negative dec. The only problem is we could have done it clearly with Peggy and Don because they both understand what the whole thing is. With the other people, if we declare a negative dec, they're going to go back and say what the heck did they declare. That's why I usually take the stand of liking to explain to them what it is because most people, probably 99% of the people out there, don't even know what SEAR is or what we have to go through with government bureaucracy, and all that. That's the only reason I do that. Because otherwise they 'll go home and say they declared something negative. I don't know what they did. And I don't think we really want that. Now, we'll do it any way the Planning Board wants to do it. Does that answer your question. C. Twigg: Yes, G. Senter: And it justifies their forty bucks. G. Totman: Okay, now we've done that. Now we've got to go back -- did we approve this yet? G. Van Slyke: We approved the negative dec, but we haven't made a motion to approve the boundary change . G. Totman: I got it down here that we did . M. Palmer: Well you didn't. You read the SEAR and that's as far as you got. 15 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 M. Carey: Go for it, George. G. Totman: Anybody got any more questions? G. Van Slyke: I make a motion that we approve the boundary change . M. Carey: I'll second it. G. Totman: Anybody against it? (No board member present was against the approval.) Passed. Approval of Minutes " Meeting of September 19, 1996 G. Totman: Now we'll go back to the first thing on the agenda and discuss the minutes of the last meeting. Anybody have any corrections, errors they want to make. Or does somebody want to make a motion that we approve the minutes as presented . M. Palmer: I found an error in it. V. Rankin: I move that we approve them as submitted. M. Palmer: There's an error in it. G. Van Slyke: Second . G. Totman: You're not on the Board. M. Palmer: I know. V. Rankin: There may be an error in there, but I've forgotten it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) Passed . Report to Planning Board by Town Board Member, Don Palmer re Zoning Ordinance Revisions G. Totman: Don has very graciously offered to explain to us what he thinks might have happened to our suggested changes to the Zoning Ordinance that was presented last Monday night. Mr. Donald Palmer. D. Palmer: Well, the proposed changes were presented by Lyle Raymond, and Mr. Twigg came in to assist in that process. And at the conclusion of the offering, I believe the comment that was left by the Town Supervisor is that she would take that information and wait for any questions, and I think it stopped right there . G. Totman: Doesn't the Board have a vote on it? D. Palmer: There was no vote taken on it at that meeting. C. Twigg: Wasn't there any interested Board member there? G. Totman: Was it brought up at the Board for discussion? D. Palmer: No . No action was taken at that Town Board meeting. G. Totman: Very honestly, I did not expect a decision that night, but I thought they would at least- M. Carey: I will bring it up to another Board member that I know of and ask him to look at it too. 16 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 D. Palmer: I would suggest that it be proposed to go on the agenda for the next Town Board meeting for action to be taken if this Board wants to move it forward. G. Totman: This Board? D. Palmer: Yes. G. Totman: We have moved it forward . M. Palmer: You can go to the Board every month until it does something. G. Totman: Well, yes, we can send somebody there, yes. But we shouldn't have to. We have made a formal presentation . We were told to put it all together. We spent four or five meetings, Cecil, myself, and two or three other people , and we presented it to the Town Board the way we were supposed to have sent it. We did everything they asked us to do. They received our report, gave it to the Supervisor, and filed it. M. Palmer: She filed it. G. Totman : Let the record show that. I'll stop right there. It's very important that we at least recognize those problems (referring to the problems in the new Ordinance) , because they've been brought to us by people that are working with them, the Code Enforcement Officer, recognizing that when we put a document together that thick, that we're not going to read it word-by-word to make sure everything's right. And even if they read it word-by-word, they wouldn't pick up those mistakes. Every community wherever I've been for the last forty years has had to make changes afterwards because they recognize that they can't pick things up. We're not asking for anything out of the abnormal . I don't understand why -- if they don't trust or want the Planning Board, they should dissolve it. I'd like to have that as a matter of record. I don't know what the rest of you guys think. Cecil went down there. Lyle put a lot of time in this thing, and it wasn't -- D. Palmer: The presentation that was made was well done . Well documented . All I'm saying is there was no action taken at that meeting. M. Carey: Weren't you kind of interrupted, though? D. Palmer: By a chain of events. M. Palmer: They had to move, but they still continued their meeting. D. Palmer: But that doesn't mean that no action could not have been taken. M. Carey: How come there wasn't a call for an action to be taken? D. Palmer: I don't know. C. Twigg: Who could do that? Any Board member could bring it up couldn't they? -- say, hey, let's bring this up -- let's discuss it and get the thing going. You could do that couldn't you -- as a Board member? D. Palmer: Sure. I could do it next month also . C. Twigg: That's what I say. This coming month you could -- D. Palmer: It will come through on the minutes of the meeting that had been held, so I think that prompts action be taken at the next meeting. There was too much information to digest. G. Totman: That's what I was going to say before Monica interrupted me . C. Twigg: I'm not condemning you for not doing it last meeting, all right. What I'm trying to clarify is how do we get it acted on. It's not the Planning Board's position now to do that. 17 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 17 October 1996 D. Palmer: I think the Planning Board can request that it be placed on the agenda for next month's meeting. C. Twigg: We put it on last months. D. Palmer: For the presentation. V. Rankin: They can go back and ask them what they did . G. Totman: We did -- we just did. C. Twigg: But as far as getting it back on the agenda, it has to be somebody on the Town Board, G. Totman: In all sincerity, I wasn't asking, I wasn't expecting -- D. Palmer: Anybody can have an item put on the agenda. Or on the open opportunity. G. Totman: I wasn't asking, or I wasn't expecting a decision that night. All I thought they would do is have an open discussion as to what can we do with this, what should we do with it, and should we hold a public hearing if we all agree to it, or appoint a committee . That's what normally a Town Board does. If they did absolutely nothing with it, then what do they want us to do next? They'll get a copy of our minutes -- don't you get a copy of our minutes? D. Palmer: Yes. G. Totman: Once we've presented it, I don't thing we should go begging. C. Twigg: I don't either. I think they've got it and whatever they do with it is your responsibility now. It's out of the hands of the Planning Board, unless you call the Planning Board in and they want more explanation if there's something they didn't understand, or something of this nature , then we could -- D. Palmer: I don't think there would be any harm if there's a representative of this Board to be at the Town Board meeting in case questions come up next month . But I think one way or another that should be moved forward at next month's meeting. G. Totman: I'm sure it will be. Adjournment G. Totman: Has anybody else got anything to bring up before the Planning Board tonight? V. Rankin: I move we adjourn . G. Van Slyke : I second. G. Totman: All those in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) I'm going home . The meeting was adjourned at 9910 p.m. Respectfully submitted , r - an E. Fitch Recording Secretary 18