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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1996-08-15 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING Thursday, 15 August 1996 Board Members (*absent) Others Present George Totman, Chairman Joan E. Fitch , Recording Secretary Monica Carey Mr. & Mrs. Sherry O'Brien *Sheldon Clark Marc Perosio *Jeff Lewis Tracy Douka Verl Rankin Millicent & Eugene Viscotha Cecil Twigg *George VanSlyke G. Totman : Okay, it's five minutes after eight and we'll open the meeting up, and the reason we're five minutes late is we waited for some people to come for the public hearing. But in the meantime , because we've publicized it in the paper we will read the public hearing notice as required by law. Bernard L. Douka (Richard Clark Property) - 462 Pleasant Valley Rd. - MVRS Application - TM # 32- 1 -39 The public hearing was opened at 8 *05 p.m . by George Totman, Chairperson, who read the Legal Notice as published: PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that the Planning Board of the Town of Groton, County of Tompkins, New York, will hold a public hearing at the Town Hall, 101 Conger Boulevard, Groton, New York at 8:00 PM on Thursday, August 15, 1996 for the purpose of considering the application for a Motor Vehicle Repair Shop at 462 Pleasant Valley Road, Richard & Sharon Clark, Owners, Bernard Douka, leasor [sic]. All interested persons will be heard. George L. Totman Dated August 7, 1996 Planning Board Chairman G. Totman : Being that there's nobody here from the public, or from the applicants, and it's :never happened to us before , but I guess it would be proper to close the public hearing and notify the people that--- - V. Rankin: Is that front door unlocked? C. Twigg: There's a couple people standing out front there . G. Totman: There's somebody out front? Okay, we'll wait a minute . (Note : Someone unlocks front door, and people come in. Then George continues. . . ) We read the public hearing notice that we were supposed to read by law because of the public hearing on a motor vehicle repair shop , and there was nobody here. V. Rankin: They were here, but they were outside. G. Totman: Mrs. Douka is here. T. Douka: My husband would have been here but he's sick. G. Totman: Is there anybody else here that would like to speak on that particular application? Do you have something there for us. T. Douka: Yes. 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 G. Totman: This is a letter from a person who's in favor of it, but he couldn't make it in person. He's writing to say that he's a neighbor, a homeowner near there -- I haven't read it, but I know what's in it. The letter is from Joe Frank and he lives nearby or he owns land nearby. T. Douka: Yes, M. Carey: At 492 Pleasant Valley Road. G. Totman: So -- normally when you hold a public hearing there's questions and answers from people and then we sit down and go over the details with the person if we have no objections to the operation , as to the hours of operation, what you can do and what you can't do, and all that sort of thing. T. Douka: I think we already talked over all that. G. Totman: But he's not here . T. Douka: Well , he would have been if he wasn't sick. G. Totman : I think probably the only way we can solve that problem is, is when you have a public hearing by the rules and regulations that are set up, the Planning Board can make a decision that night, or they have up to 45 days to make the decision. And probably, in lieu of his being sick and not being able to go over the details with him, not a public hearing, but have him come down next time and sit down and talk to us to go over the details. Because everybody has to do that. Does the Board have any other suggestions? M. Carey: No, I agree with you . G. Totman: Cecil? Verl? I think that would be the best way. George (Senter) , do you have anything? G. Senter: No. G. Totman : For the record, the problem that was there before -- do you feel that's all been taking care of? G. Senter: Yes. It's been an on-going problem. G. Totman: Well, we meet the third Thursday in September. This will be three months in a row for you, but I don't know how else we can do it, really. That's the 19th . Okay? T. Douka: Okay, M. Carey: I make a motion we close the public hearing. C. Twigg: I second that. n < J m All in favor? indicated G. Tot an: a (All members present they were in favor. ) Millicent Viscotha - 744 Elm Street - Application for Sign - TM # 26- 1 - 10. 1 G. Totman : Okay. Millicent Viscotha. You want approval of a sign you pu what the Ordinance calls for? That's what I understand. E. Viscotha: I called the Town Clerk and she said that we're rural and that there was four or five codes on the application . I asked her which code applied, and she said he rural code . It's not a problem really. 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 G. Totman : Just briefly let me explain to you one of our problems that we made for ourselves. Last year in May, after a couple of years of working on the Ordinance and having public hearings and everything, we met with the Town Board in January of '94 and in May of '95, through another public hearing, they passed all of our proposed changes. Well, up until that point, all of the signs were approved by the Code Enforcement Officer because of what was said in the book. Somehow or other it got into the Ordinance that when you had a Site Plan Review or Special Permit, then the Planning Board would approve the sign. And it really didn't make any sense -- it slipped by us -- because if the Planning Board was going to approve signs other than what was in the code, it wouldn't be fair to your neighbor -- if George comes to your neighbor and she's got a home occupation going on, and he says you've got to comply with the rules, and you go through the Planning Board and get a special sign from them that's bigger than theirs, it should be consistent. G. Senter: It should be consistent. G. Totman: And it really shouldn't come to the Planning Board. It should go by the book and go to the Code Enforcement Officer. So, in the last two months, we've had a committee from the Planning Board meeting and we've now come up with some changes we're going to make to the Ordinance -- our goals were to make it more user friendly. And I think it's going to be that way. And after tonight's meeting, we're going to present it to the Town Board to clear that thing up so that everybody gets the same treatment. It just doesn't make sense the way it is. And we did it. I guess. So if you're going to make it comply with what the Code says, then George will just give you a permit for that, right? We'll accept what they're saying and tell you to issue a permit accordingly. G. Senter: If you're going to do that, why you can approve it yourself under the current regulations. G. Totman: Yes, but they don't have any drawings of what they've got then . They've agreed to make it to what the code calls for in that area. They submit it to you , and the Planning Board will accept. that as an action if somebody wants to make that a motion . M. Carey: I'll make that a motion. G. Senter: Come in and we'll give you what you need . G. Totman : Is it six square feet? What is the one you've got nova? E. Viscotha: It's a little under twelve square feet per side. Well, looking at the old regulations, it said we were allowed 50 square foot. This seemed to be humungous, really. G. Totman : Some of those things are what we're changing. Okay, You made the motion to approve the application for the sign as permitted through the Code Enforcement Officer and put it up according to the Codes in that area? M. Carey: Yes. C. Twigg: I'll second that motion . G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. Sherry O'Brien - 100 Sharpsteen Road - Discussion of Special Permit Stipulations /MVRS - TM # 35- 1 -34. 6 G. Totman : Sherry O'Brien. For the benefit of the Planning Board, Sherry has been working with George Senter in bringing his place of business up to the agreements that were made between him and the Planning Board a couple years ago . And they've got one particular area where Sherry would like to have the Planning Board take a look at and review one of his problems to see if we couldn't maybe either agree with him, or change it, or not agree with him. And I'm going to let him explain it. S. O'Brien; There's really no explaining to it. It's just turnkey cars. 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 G. Totman: The Planning Board hasn't been involved in any of your conversations with George or me. S. O'Brien: Oh, yes . We went through this last time we were here. C. Twigg: Refresh our memory. M. Carey: I wasn't here, so I need to be refreshed. G. Totman: We've got the minutes, but I guess what it is is we allowed or agreed to have so many cars in a parallel, neat, orderly fashion. And the question is -- we called them turnkey cars. S. O'Brien: Right. And what are you classifying as turnkey cars? G. Totman: A car that you can put a key in, turn it, and it will start up and they can drive it. Is that the way you --- S. O' Brien: That's the way I would -- but that's my objection. G. Totman: What Sherry is asking is -- before -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- he's got cars up there that are customer cars that might not run . And in order for him to put them in an orderly fashion, or keep them there and stay within our rules and regulations, those cars that are in that parallel line to each other might not be able to start up with a key at that given moment. So he' d like to put those cars in that line , too. So Sherry feels that as long as he follows all the other rules and regulations, and he keeps the customers' cars that might have a bad motor in or the transmission be bad in it, as long as he keeps them in that area and keeps it cleaned up and the weeds pulled or grass mowed, or whatever, around it, that the general public won't see it any different than as a turnkey car -- as long as it's not junk. And he would like to have the permission of not having to have the CEO counting turnkey cars as long as he meets all the other requirements. Do I get that right? S. O'Brien* Yes, G. Totman: So, Planning Board -- questions? M. Carey: You won't have cars down there with like the hoods popped , or something like ghat? They'll look like they could be a for-sale type of car ? S. O' Brien: Right, G. Senter: What if he has a car down there with a windshield out and he has tarp over that? G. Totman : But that's not something that's going to stay there month after month, though . S . O'Brien: Right now, the problem is trying to get the paperwork straightened out on it. I bought it not realizing there was a lien on the title, and the bank that holds the lien is no longer in business. So I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it. G. Totman: What bank went out of business? S. O'Brien: It's in New York City. The bank is out of business. I checked that out and the bank is gone . G. Totman : What's the name of the bank? S. O'Brien: I'd have to look on the title ; I don't remember. G. Totman: I'll be darned. I'm not doubting your word, but it just sounds odd. 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 S. O'Brien: I know it's out of business -- my neighbor's from New York City. And he was real good friends with a guy in the postal department down there . And he said the bank was seized and the doors were closed. So I'm trying another angle right now. G. Totman: Under that disposal of cars you can make public notice . You can put a sign on the car and if it's on there for so many hours, then --- S. O'Brien: But you don't know the owner. I've got the paperwork on it -- G. Totman: What I was saying is -- like, for example, somebody moves out of your apartment building and they leave their car in the parking lot and they never come back; they've gone out of state . S . O'Brien: You can put them through a sheriff's sale. G. Totman : You can put a sign on it and as long as you can prove that it's been on for so many days or hours, you've got witnesses, you can start proceedings to get the title in your name . S. O' Brien: As long as you do not know the owner. See the catch is -- I have the paperwork. The woman gave me the paperwork with the car. And she says it didn't bother me any because I knew it was paid for. Now if you come up there to buy that car, are you going to buy it with that lien on it? G. Totman : Okay. That's that one car. Co Twigg: I don't think that that sort of thing has been the complaint. Whether they were turnkey cars or what they were , I think the complaint was -- from the ones that I've heard -- is that the cars are not in an orderly fashion. Some have the hoods popped up -- there's parts, there's fenders and stuff piled here and there. That is the thing that the people are complaining about. Nobody knows if a car is setting in a row in an orderly fashion whether it's a turnkey or whether it isn't, and I doubt that George is going to check them out to see if they're turnkey if they look neat and orderly. I think this is the problem. S. O'Brien: There is a pile of scrap up there . My son picks that up most generally at least once a month . C. Twigg: But this is the problem that we have that people think the cars you have there are not in an orderly fashion -- turnkeys or not turnkeys. I don't think anybody really cares about that. What they care about when they drive by -- they see a line of cars lined up and the weeds mowed around them so it looks decent. But if there's a pile of junk there , or cars rolled up on their sides, or --- S. O'Brien: There's never been that -- C. Twigg: No. But I say if -- that's what they're objecting to . M. Carey: Is there any way that your son can pick up those junk piles more than once a month? Maybe twice a month? S. O'Brien: Most generally if you've got a junk car -- like I've got one right there right now that I've got to pull the motor -- then all that stuff will go in the car and get rid of it because that's generally what I do -- I just stuff that full . C. Twigg: Well, I don't drive that road too often, but I was down by there the other day, and the cars down below that were supposed to be in an orderly fashion, weren't really too orderly. One was setting off kitty-cornered out at the end . They weren't rowed up like we said they were supposed to be . S. O'Brien: That's the one we have all the problem with . C. Twigg: But I think if it sat over in the row with all the other cars, nobody would notice the difference . S. O' Brien: Well, I can do that. 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 C. Twigg: Up in the driveway there was some on this side and some on the other. G. Totman: Let me see if I can solve this? If we eliminate what we said in the minutes about turnkey cars and go back to what the Special Permit says -- sign must comply with the ordinance, cars to be kept in a neat orderly fashion as shown on the reverse side, and no more than two so-called inoperative cars can be in the view of the public, and noise be kept at a minimum. Leave it the same way as it is now, except for the word "turnkey. " Would anybody have anything against that? C. Twigg: I wouldn't object to that. As long as the car -- G. Totman: And the thing of it is -- and what we have to be responsible for -- is that once we do these things -- and basically that's what we agreed to a year or two ago -- George has to follow up on it or he catches heck. From the pictures and the way it was in the past, and people complaining, they weren't in a neat, orderly fashion. And if they had been kept in a neat, orderly fashion the way it shows, probably we wouldn't have come to the point that we did . The only problem is - - if you don't do this, then George will be compelled to pull the permit. And the only reason we didn't do that before, to be very honest with you -- because I know if we pull the permit and do what we're supposed to do -- that would automatically take away your permit from the State . And this really isn't the intent to have that happen . That could have happened in the spring when we went over the deadlines and all that sort of thing. So what the Planning Board has more or less told George is that -- and what I assume from what George has said, right now it meets all these specifications except for the turnkey cars . G. Senter: He's got a couple things he's got to do. But it's a lot better. G. Totman: And he meets this, and then when he reinspects -- because he has to renew this once a year -- the Planning Board right now will make a motion to accept that, then the only thing that will happen here is that when he does an inspection for the renewal, and you -- or whoever -- slips back to the old thing, then it will just be an automatic thing where he sends you a letter and says in 30 days this is going to happen. Does somebody want to make a motion to that? C. Twigg: If we make this motion, then he's got what -- a year? G. Totman : No. He's already, according to George, met everything on the thing on the thing except for a few things that he's working on that he's going to get cleaned up . This is December 31st. What we're making a motion on to approve right now won't change a thing of what he's doing right now, except for the fact that the cars that are there , as long as there in this so-called parallel line, right now George has had orders from the minutes of our meeting back then, to have them called turnkey cars. They'll be there now. They'll look like cars that are turnkey. They won't look like junk -- but some of them won't start. Am I with you -- am I right? C. Twigg: I can understand that. V. Rankin: I'll move we do what you said. G. Totman : Second? M. Carey: Yes, I guess. J. Fitch: So you've got a motion to accept the conditions on the permit as they are? G. Totman : That's right. J. Fitch: You really should correct # 3 -- that doesn't mean anything to me, but I'm not a member of the Board . G. Totman: What's wrong with it? J. Fitch: It says "More than two cars cannot be in the public view. . . " 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1.996 G. Totman: They can't have more than two junk cars on a lot. J. Fitch: So it should be "No more than two. . . " G. Totman: Okay. I didn't pick that up . Yes, it should say "No more. . . " It says that on the back. All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) Moving right along, at 8:30, Mr. Marc Perosio is going to be here. But let me explain something to you until he gets here -- Shenys permit right now says the same thing we voted on tonight. What happened was, when this was made out, the turnkey cars never got on the Permit in the first place . The Permit that he's got doesn't even say turnkey cars. And in the minutes of our meeting, and George picked it up, it said turnkey cars. So George went to him and said you can have only so many turnkey cars. It was never on his permit in the first place . M. Carey: A lot of things are missing on his permit. G. Totman : For the minutes sake, do you think that he understands from our conversation that George has got the responsibility in January to not reissue his permit if it is not complying with these rules and regulations? He doesn't have to come back to the Planning Board. It goes to the Court next time . That's why I tried to make him understand that and he nodded his head yes. G. Senter: I think he did. I don't know how else you could have explained it. I think that's as good as you're going to explain it. M. Carey: Say two months from now it looks pretty shabby -- can you go up two months from now and pull it? G. Senter: Then he has a problem. G. Totman: He can send a letter and give him so many days and that's it. C. Twigg: That was one thing I was concerned about, that we weren't okaying something for a year we couldn't revoke . G. Totman: No. George can do it next week, or the week after. Marc Perosio - Boundary Change & Subdivision Approval - Devlin Road - TM # 15- 1 - 1 (Part of) G. Totman : Members of the Planning Board -- Marc Perosio just came in . You've all got a copy of his thing. You probably haven't had a chance to look it over yet, but what Marc wants to do is make a boundary change and change a lot in the subdivision that we approved from him on Devlin Road. if you look at the lots, zero lot before you get to Lot 1 has already been sold . That was sold before the subdivision. Lots 1 and 2 have been sold, and he has a purchase offer on Lot 3; but the people want to buy five acres or so larger than that lot and they want to take it all the way up to the next corner. M. Perosio: I think it's seven acres. G. Totman: Okay. But in so doing, it would take that lot all the way up to the corner so it actually makes a better deal. It makes it a larger lot. But what he would like to do is retain the privilege of getting out on the back side : so between Lots 2 and 3, he wants to maintain a 40-foot right-of-way. It won't be a right-of-way because he wants to retain the land and it will be deeded to the parcel that's in behind 15- 1 - 1 . M. Carey: So it would be considered like a flag lot. G. Totman: The only reason, and I didn't think about it until after you left today, Marc, but -- and I don't know how much land you're going to have left out back - - M. Perosio: A fair amount. 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1.996 G. Totman : And does it attach to anybody else that has a sizable lot, too? The reason I'm asking is you never know what's going to happen next year, a year after, or two years from now. And if you only make it 40 feet and you get a developer that comes along that wants to buy your lot and the lot beyond you , he's going to need 50 feet to put a real Town road up through there , and he couldn't do it with 40 feet, and it might harm your sale later on. M. Perosio: Okay. V. Rankin: The other thing, Marc, is -- do you work that land out back there? M. Perosio: Yes, it's a hay field or a corn field. V. Rankin: Well, you need all the right-of-way you can get out through there . G. Totman: I thought of that afterwards because, you know, five or ten years down the road when you might want to sell something off, or whatever, if you don't leave enough road frontage there to make a highway, you've killed all the use of the land back there . M. Perosio: Okay, I see where you're coming from. G. Totman: So what we're really asking for here tonight is -- he's asking for a boundary change to make a lot bigger, and to change that one lot to move it over so he can have the right-of-way through there. M. Carey: So that would give us 150 feet road frontage on the lot that you want to take out? G. Totman: No, he's not going to take it out. He's going to move this lot down. What he's doing, Monica, is -- Lot 2 has already been sold. Lot 3 will be moved down 40, 50, 60 feet, and the boundary line of Lot 3 --- M. Carey: I'm just looking for the ROW to get back to the field. It's on this lot, then -- Lot 3? G. Totman: It will be here . But he'll have more than 200 feet because he's going all the way to the corner. So how many feet do you think you'll wind up with then? M. Perosio: As far as what? I'll ask you . What do you recommend that I change that ROW to? G. Totman: Well, it's legal the way you want to do it. The only reason I mention it different was thinking of you in the future . M. Perosio: Right. So I'm asking you --- G. Totman: Right now, the Town of Groton, under my regulations, is 50 feet. Most other towns have gone to 60, Now what Groton might be five years from now, I don't know. But if it were my land, I would make it 60 feet. M. Perosio: Okay, now how can I go about doing this? Can I get a boundary agreement between the new land owner, or do I have to have it re-surveyed and do a formal survey and whatnot and come back to you? G. Totman: No. If everybody agrees with what we're talking about tonight, and we all agree to the 60 feet, and we pass a resolution -- just for thinking purposes, you change that to 60 feet. What we're going to do is approve of the boundary change on Lot 3 , moving the eastern boundary west 60 feet, and eliminate the western and southern boundary on Lot 3 and extending it out to make seven acres out of it, and it will go all the way up to the abandoned part of Bossard Road . So basically what it is, is we're approving the slight change in the subdivision of moving Lot 3 west 60 feet, and if we approve that, all you've got to do is go back to this Schlieder -- he's got the mylar of this. It's got to be simple because it happened to me this week, only on a much bigger subdivision than this -- he went back in to the people that made it, the owner did, and they just erase those lines and draw the new lines in and run a new mylar. 8 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 M. Perosio, Okay, Okay, G. Totman: We had a meeting Monday night in Lansing -- he left there about 9 o'clock, and about 9:30 the next morning he was in with a new mylar. So it can't be much of a deal. So are there any more questions from the Planning Board? Do you like it -- don't like it? Now's the time to ask questions. V. Rankin: I move we approve the boundary change. C. Twigg: I second the motion . G. Totman: Subdivision change and boundary change . What • do you want to put down for the distance between Lot 2 and Lot 3? M. Perosio: Sixty feet. G. Totman: Sixty feet. All in favor? (All indicated they were in favor.) You bring in the new rnylar and a couple copies and Carol can put our stamp on them. M. Perosio: I'm a little bit unfamiliar with what we're doing. The people that are buying the property will need a tax map number? G. Totman: They will get that when you make this transaction and file it at the County Clerk's Office, you'll get it from the tax assessment department. The Town doesn't give those out. The minute you bring that revised map back in here, we'll put the stamp on and they'll accept it down there . They won't accept it down there without that stamp on it. M. Perosio: So I need to have them change the 60 feet. Okay, let me ask you this from a logistics standpoint of view. What if we accept it at 40 feet and then I go have it changed legally afterwards? Because I've got a survey right now that shows 40 feet of road frontage and that's the information that's presented to you . G. Totman : Then you've got to come in for a new subdivision all over again . It's not us -- Me Perosio: I understand . I'm relatively new at this. That's why I'm asking. G. Totman: But see, what the problem is -- those people might say no , we don't want to give you that extra 20 feet and they could be legally within their rights saying no, we bought it like this -- we don't want you to put a road down there because there will be traffic at night through there . They can envision what might happen and say no way. C. Twigg: Has this been surveyed? M. Perosio: Yes, it's all been surveyed. G. Totman: It wouldn't take that much, really, to have McNamara just change those lines -- you could get yourself into some serious problems I think. M. Perosio: If I don't do it now. G. Totman : Yes, that's right. From my experience. It's up to you . M. Perosio: Well, I'll do it then -- I'll take care of it. G. Totman : It's really better planning, economically, on your part. M. Perosio: Okay, one other question that's come up is -- have you spoken to anybody? 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 C. Twigg: I've not seen George. I got here a little late myself. What he was concerned about -- he asked me this morning about a flag lot. And wanted to know how many acres. I told him two . G. Totman: He knows better than that. C. Twigg: And he went over and talked to you and you told him five. Where'd you get five acres? G. Totman : Where did I get it? M. Perosio: I read it right in your book and I came down here to Carol right after I was at your place, and she photostatted, I assume, a copy of the same thing from the book that you had . I got home and I read it and it only said twice as large as -- - G. Totman: I hope you're right, because I told you this morning I didn't think it ought to be five. I didn't agree . C. Twigg: I think that we should change that while we're changing. It says lot area -- the minimum lot area of flag lots (page 36) shall be twice the area of conventional lots . Now why don't they say two acres? Now we've got to go find out what's a conventional lot. G. Totman : One acre. M. Carey: Yes, but it says right below it that a lot shall have a minimum area of two acres. C. Twigg: But why doesn't it say two acres up there instead of twice as big as a conventional lot? M. Perosio: What did I read at your place , George? I read the five acres. C. Twigg: He looked over in the Rural Ag Flag Lot which is five acres or more. M. Perosio: Am I a Rural Ag if I sell that -- because I've got the potential to sell it? C. Twigg: No. M. Carey: Wait a minute -- why wouldn't he be Rural Ag? C. Twigg: He's in that Rural Ag District, but its not a -- what did we call those where they need the five-acre lots? M. Carey: That would be a major subdivision. G. Senter: A rural subdivision. C. Twigg: But they call them an ag subdivision. G. Senter: It's rural agricultural . M. Carey: A major subdivision is five lots -- I mean five acres. G. Totman : He's in a Rural Agricultural District, G. Senter: The whole Town is almost all agricultural. C. Twigg: Now how many different kinds of subdivisions do we have? There's minor, major, flag pole -- they have flag lot subdivisions . What do we call the subdivision where they have five or more acres per lot? G. Senter: That's Rural, Cecil . 10 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 C. Twigg: All right. Rural Ag District -- yes, that's what it says there -- these are districts. Where's the subdivision part? G. Senter: In the front. G. Totman: I found it quick this morning. M. Perosio: Well , Carol copied it off for me and when I got home it's not what I read fifteen minutes or a half hour ago . M. Carey: Minor flag lot subdivision -- oh, it's less than five acres. Okay. G. Senter: We all see something different, don't we? J. Fitch: This is user friendly; keep that in mind. G. Totman : Yes. We were making this user friendly. M. Carey: Rural flag lot subdivision, on page 11 . Subdivision of land during a three-year period that results in one or two flag lots, each of which is five acres or more and which ( 1) does not include new streets, utility extensions . . . . (2) does not conflict with this Code -- G. Totman: Five acres. G. Senter: A flag lot's a flag lot. G. Totman: I don't even know why it should be bigger than a regular lot. It isn't in other towns. G. Senter: I agree. M. Perosio: Really, this is unique to Groton. G. Totman: It's unique to Groton, number one, just to have it. Because we just got it passed a year ago . M. Perosio: I guess my question to the Board is -- I've got the potential to sell the flag lot. No money has changed hands and no surveys have taken place, no nothing . This woman would like three acres which is fine . She can have three acres . But what I'm saying is, what size do I legally have to be to meet the Town's requirements? G. Senter: If it's more than five acres, it would be a rural flag lot. If less, would it be a minor flag lot. Does that help? Does that make sense? Co Twigg: No. G. Senter: Because a rural subdivision is five acres a lot. M. Carey: We didn't really define it -- we just defined rural flag lot subdivision. But it's a subdivision of land during a three-year period that results in one to two flag lots, each of which is five acres. C. Twigg: See , that's a rural subdivision. I'm trying to get it straight in my mind why we have a rural subdivision. Now why did we do that? G. Senter: A rural flag lot subdivision? C. Twigg: Well, right under it is rural subdivision and they are also five-acre lots. M. Carey: If I remember correctly, that was part of the Town Board's recommendation that we put something like that in. 11 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1.996 C. Twigg: What is the reasoning? There must be some reasoning. M. Carey: Well I don't remember, but they didn't want flags off the pole all the way up and I think that's why they wanted us to put something like that in. You'd have a great big field and people wouldn't be selling off all the lots going up the pole . There was a lot of argument over that flag lot. C. Twigg: But it's a two-acre flag lot just like the other; that's the way we've been taught to do it. But see, this is a rural flag lot subdivision . You go just a plain flag lot -- now what's the difference between a plain flag lot and a rural flag lot? G. Senter: Three acres. M. Carey: We'd have to get out our minutes from back then, but there was something. G. Senter: If you make a flag lot that's five acres, I take it that's a rural flag lot subdivision . If you got a flag lot that's two acres, that would be a minor. That's the way I understand it, Cecil . M. Perosio: Okay. What happens if this individual wants three acres and I got down to the Planning Board with a three-acre survey of a flag lot? G. Totman : We can make a motion and approve it as long as you give us the things, but if you do that then you've killed your chance for putting a 60-foot public road out there because you've cut off -- you've got to take 20 feet out of that because they've got to own that 20 feet. They have to own it all the way to the road . M. Perosio: Yes, I understand that. I've got to go home and - - my --- G. Totman: Excuse me for interrupting, but the only reason for me bringing this up is, I want to make sure that I feel in my own mind that we've explained to you the pros and cons of it so you can think it over. M. Perosio: Well, here's where I'm coming from. I think I'm inclined to leave it at 40 feet because if I'm able to sell this flag lot, which is available, to put a road through there and develop the back part of it, then you're going to go through a stream and then you're going to get involved with some designated wetlands and I really don't think it's going to be economically feasible to do much more with than I've done . G. Totman: It's your property. C. Twigg: If you had 40 feet, that would give you two poles. M. Perosim Right, C. Twigg: And you feel that two poles is all you're ever going to need? M. Perosio: I realistically think so. Because you run into so much water and wetlands back here . C. Twigg: But it's so hard to change it if you sell it to somebody once -- M. Perosio: I'll leave it at 40, G. Senter: Cecil, Iook under subdivision definitions. For a minor subdivision, it's lots less than five acres. CO Twigg: Subdivision . A division of a lot or lots into three or more lots. G. Senter: Read minor. C. Twigg: It's on page 12 where I was. Rural subdivision is on 11 . 12 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 G. Totman: I'm glad you brought that up . The way I look at that, we've got to include that in our proposed changes to the Town Board when they present this to them. That's very confusing. M. Perosio: I guess what I'm asking is to get what exactly would need to be done if I do sell a flag lot. G. Totman: The way I read this thing right now is that if you've got two or more acres up to five , you can do it as a one-lot rural flag lot. If you've got more than five acres, the way this reads right now, it has to come under what they call a rural flag lot subdivision, but I don't see where the rules are any different. C. Twigg: But it's got to be two acres not counting the pole. The pole you don't count. The flag is what you do count. M. Perosio: Well, this individual said if I'm able to get the money to do this, I would like three acres. I said okay, I'll sell you three acres. C. Twigg: Does she know what three acres is? M. Perosio: I don't know. But if it was three or five it doesn't make any difference. What I'm trying to avoid is coming down here with a $500 two-acre survey and then have it thrown out because it doesn't meet code . That's all I'm trying to do is to avoid that. Co Twigg: If you've got at least two acres surveyed off there, not counting the pole. M. Perosio: How long can the pole be? Co Twigg: One-thousand feet. M. Perosio: Then I am inclined to leave it -- I've got room in the 40 feet for two flags -- I'm inclined to leave it at the 40 feet and let it go as surveyed. J. Fitch: Are you going to revise the previous motion? V. Rankin: I move we revise the previous motion to 40 feet instead of 60 feet. C. Twigg: I second. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor) . For the minutes sake, what we're telling you tonight is - - if you come in here with a proposal for at least two acres, not including the flag pole , we have no reason not to accept it as long as it meets those dimensions. C. Twigg: But we do have to have a re-do on that, right? In other words, George can't give him a building permit. It has to go through us. G. Totman: Yes, it has to go through us. The Town Board wanted that in the rules. C. Twigg: If you just sold a lot, George could give you a building permit and away you go. But a flag lot means we have to have a Site Plan Review. We had to put that in in order to get flag lots. M. Perosio: That's fine, just as long as I understand it. Now, with the information that you have here , we can keep it at 40 feet. C. Twigg: Yes, M. Perosio: I've already got that on the survey map you've got right there . G. Totman: You can go to the surveyor tomorrow and they should change those boundary lines while you stand there . He's got to go. 13 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 M. Perosio: I'm keeping it at the 40 feet. M. Carey: But you want the boundary change to go to the end of the road. M. Perosio: No, that's all on the survey. I'm asking you to accept that exactly as it's been surveyed . G. Totman: Now, do you have the mylars for this then? M. Perosio: No I don't. G. Totman: That's what we need. M. Perosio: Where do I get them from? G. Totman: Jim will give it to you. We have to have that mylar to put the stamp on so we have it on record that we signed it. M. Perosio: Would my lawyer have those, because I think the original surveys were sent to my lawyer? G. Totman: He might. M. Perosio: I'll take care of that tomorrow. G. Totmaw We have to put the stamp on that because supposedly when you go down to record it, they won't accept it unless it's been approved by the town where you're coming from. And the only way they know it is from the stamp . M. Perosio: I understand. I'm not up to speed on a lot of this stuff. G. Totman: Hey, we're not either. M. Perosio: Now if I came in here and wanted to make a ten-acre flag lot C. Twigg: Go right ahead . M. Perosio: It could be done? C. Twigg: Sure, as long as the pole's not more than a thousand feet long . G. Totman: Okay, let's move along. M. Perosio: Thanks a lot. I'll get that mylar and I'll get that taken care of. Now who do I bring that to? G. Totman: Carol. M. Perosio: Good enough. Good night. Board. Good night. Proposed Changes in Ordinance G. Totman : Okay, tonight I gave you the proposed changes in the Ordinance. Cecil, Lyle Raymond, ad John Pachai met three different times and came up with these proposed changes. I just gave them to you tonight, so I really don't think we ought to vote on anything tonight, but what I would like to have you do is -- and I gave a copy of these to George -- look these over, see if you agree with them so if anyone from the Town Board asks you a question you can understand what they might be saying. And 14 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 15 August 1996 think about -- like on this flag lot -- maybe we want to go back through and come up with something better than what's in the Ordinance for that, because if that's so confusing that a member of the public asks us a question and we can't even give him a right answer, I think it may be something we ought to look at and change it. And please -- at the September meeting -- we can sit down and formally put it together so we can send it to the Town Board after that meeting. Is that agreeable with everybody? M. Carey: Yes, G. Totman: I really would like to have everybody read them over so we know what we're asking for. M. Carey: Even the members who are not present? G. Totman: Even the members that aren't present -- Jeff Lewis, George Van Slyke, Sheldon Clark, C. Twigg: These three pages are all that we've done, right? Approval of Minutes - June 20 & July 18 , 1996 G. Totman : Before we adjourn, we've got to approve the minutes of the last two meetings that we've had, June and July. I'd like to have it on record that in the minutes of June 20th , on page 27, where it says my criticism is of the "Town" Board, it should say "County' Board and not the Town Board. Other than that correction, I see nothing else . Do we have a motion? C. Twigg: I make a motion that we approve the June 20th minutes, revised as George said, and that we approve the July minutes as submitted . G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) I'll entertain a motion to adjourn. V. Rankin: I so move. C. Twigg: I'll second that. G. Totman : All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) The meeting is adjourned. The meeting was adjourned at 9 : 10 p.m. Respectfully submitted, ;20�60000 . Joan E. Fitch Recording Secretary 15