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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1996-07-18 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING Thursday, 18 July 1996 Board Members (*present) Others Present *George Totman, Chairman Joan E. Fitch , Recording Secretary Monica Carey Bernard & Tracey Douka *Sheldon Clark Joseph & Karina Draghi *Jeff Lewis Robert Walpole Verl Rankin Ann VanOrder & Oths. *Cecil T\vigg *George VanSlyke The meeting was called to order at 8 : 15 p.m . by George Totman, Chairperson, G. Totman: What we'll do is we'll get started . The only thing is, we can't make a vote unless there is a full quorum, but you can have a hearing or hold a public meeting without a quorum. So we'll start off. (Note : At this time , only Totman , Twigg, and Clark were present. ) Bernard L. Douka (Richard Clark Property) - 462 Pleasant Valley Rd. - MVRS Application - TM # 32- 1 - 39 G. Totman: The first thing on the agenda is an application for a motor vehicle repair shop by Bernard Douka at 462 Pleasant Valley Road. His wife was at the last meeting, if you will remember„ and she couldn't answer a lot of our questions, so we tabled it until this meeting. Do you remember that, correct? Bd. Members: Yes, G. Totman : So they are here tonight. So, what have you brought with you? T. Douka: You said you wanted a drawing. G. Totman : One of the questions was -- is where do you plan on -- how much land do you - see the parcel itself is less than an acre of land to begin with , so it's a non-conforming lot. As I understand it, the repair work is going to be done in this garage out here, and you're providing offstreet parking here and here . We have to do a SEAR, but we'll wait until - - S. Clark: Is this all free now on both sides? B. Douka: Yes. S. Clark: Is it graveled or grass or what? B. Douka: Some grass. S. Clark: It won't get all muddy, right? C. Twigg: What makes this a non-conforming lot? G. Totman: It's less than an acre , but it's a grandfathered lot. C. Twigg: All right. G. Totman : I only must mentioned it so we have all the details out. Co Twigg: It isn't much less than an acre is it? 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 G. Totman: It's nine-tenths of an acre . Well , it says here three-quarters of an acre. But I think, if I remember correctly, somewhere down the line -- but this is immaterial to what we're doing tonight. S. Clarke Will you be doing inspections? Be Douka: No, just general repairs. S. Clarke Did we establish hours? G. Totman: No, we didn't go into that because we didn't have all the details . Obviously, she couldn't answer the question as to what hours, etc . , because she didn't know and he was out of town . Let me just explain to you one of the things we go through on something like this. Are you all together, and are you with them, too? A. VanOrder: I'm a neighbor. G. Totman: We have to look at it as if not just you want to have a motor vehicle repair shop, it's how does it affect the neighborhood . And after we decide in our minds that it could be feasible to allow that, then we decide whether to hold a public hearing or not to listen to your other neighbors to see what the situation is. Normally, when we get all done, we set the hours per day because figuring that you do have neighbors, they don't want them working on cars and slamming and banging around at 9 or 10 o'clock at night, so we have to give the permit for the Site Plan Review to okay the shop and be able to tell the neighbors how many hours they're going to be open, how much outside noise is there going to be , and then we determine how many cars are going to set out in the lot -- junk cars, turnkey cars, or cars for repair. We have to determine all that and that gets put on the permit so that when the Zoning Officer comes around to check to see if you're following what was agreed upon , then each year it gets renewed . So if, according to what has been put on the Special Permit, it says you can have three cars out there and no junk cars -- of course , the ordinance takes care of the junk cars anyway . And I think you're familiar with that. But he has to drive by, especially when it's renewable in January, and if he's having a problem with their not meeting the conditions on the permit, then he's not supposed to renew it. But if he does, and the Planning Board members see that it's out there, then we have to call him and say, "Why did this happen?" Because the general public gets on our case . So we don't mean to be gestapos, or anything like that, but nevertheless it's the charge and we must do what we're appointed to do, or get off the Board and let somebody else get on. Many times, people look at zoning and these things, and you might even be one of them I'm not sure, and feel that it's just nothing but a big, bureaucratic government and everybody's trying to tell me what I can do with my land . But it's the neighbors. And it's getting more and more so all the time . People are buying lands . And the neighbors want to know what's going on around them. That's why we have to put it in writing and get permits is to make sure . So, would you like to explain to the Board what is it you're planning on doing? J. Fitch: At the last meeting, you gave them a list of the things you wanted them to bring to this meeting. G. Totman : I should have written that down , but I didn't. Normally, I look at the minutes, but we don't have them -- she went on vacation . What was the list? Basically, what it was is what are you planning on doing. If we said to you you can have , out in the public, only three turnkey cars -- we call turnkey cars something you put a key in, start it up, and drive it away. How big is the garage -- how many will it hold inside? Be Doukae Just one . G. Totman: Just one. So that means you can only have one customers car inside at a time. That means that you might have a couple people come and leave their cars off, so you've got to have some kind of a provision here , if that's happening, so that somebody isn't going to call up and say well, this guys got three cars out there, two cars out there, and what is he doing, running a junk yard? And so we've got to come to a conclusion as to what is legal to have out there . Now you don't have an awful lot of room on there, because you don't have a lot of land . So the Board has to agree, and you have to agree, whether you like to or not, that you can live with what we say. Then sometimes we like to work around that. If you agree that you can get along with having three customer cars standing outside, as long as they are not junk, while you're working on one inside . Some people tell me that they don't want 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 that because they have to have the opportunity to leave their cars off, but I drive a car and I'm not going to leave my car in somebody's garage to fix it if they're going to take two or three weeks. I'll take it someplace else. I can't see why they need to have one car setting out there for more than three or four days at a time; if they can't fix it within a day or two, then the customer shouldn't bring it there and leave it there . B . Douka: It depends on what you have to do to them. G. Totman: But I think you understand what I'm saying. B. Douka: Yes. G. Totman : So that's basically what we have to look at. We don't want to create a place in the neighborhood where there's a whole lot of cars just sitting around all the time , and whatever. You filled this thing out. It's what they call a Short Form Environmental Review. We have to do the back side, so we can go ahead and do that while we're waiting. Co Twigg: That would be legal? G. Totman : Yes, I think so. Bear in mind that we didn't make this form up . This comes from the State . Board Chairman George Totman then reads aloud Part II of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part II. G. Totman : Does somebody want to make a motion that we declare this a Negative Declaration? C. Twigg: I'll so move . J. Fitch: Can you do that without a quorum? G. Totman: Jeffs here. C. Twigg: He just pulled in. G. Totman : Okay, what is your envision of how this operation is going to be as far as - - and when we were talking about offstreet parking there, we're talking about when people come to see you , can they be off the street? We have to make sure that they don't have to park in the street. That's one thing. But as far as your operation , how many cars do you envision having in your lot at any one time? B. Douka: Three . G. Totman: And these are customers cars waiting to be fixed? B. Douka: Right, G. Totman: You're not proposing to be a salvage yard, so you're not going to have junk sitting around and stuff like that? B. Douka: No. G. Totman : Okay. Is that your son that lives right next door to them? R Todd? C. Twigg: No, no. G. Totman : Who's R. Todd - - up on Pleasant Valley Road? S. Clark: Randy Todd, yes. 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July IL996 A. VanOrder: He was supposed to be here, but he's G. Totman : That's close . You're not going to do this for a full-time living? It's part-time, right? Be Douka: Yes, more or less. G. Totman : When do you plan on doing it? What hours of the day? Be Douka: From 8 to 5. G. Totman: Weekends? Be Douka: Not Sundays, just Saturdays. G. Totman : Monday through Saturday. S. Clark: Do we need to establish hours. G. Totman : 8 to 5. S. Clark: Oh , that's right. You just said that . G. Totman: You live right across the road? A. VanOrder: Yes, C. Twigg: Way across the road . G. Totman: We're waiting for another Board member to come to make a quorum so we can make a decision, number one . But I'll tell you what's going to happen . We'll probably have to hold a public hearing -- I think I told you that before . T. Douka: Yes, you told me that. G. Totman : And one other thing that's going to have to happen, and I was hoping George Senter was going to be here tonight. I don't know where he is - - maybe he's golfing or something. But we've got to get a clear signal from him and I think you know why. If you don't, why - -- he gave, on June 17th - - see you had a little problem up there with junk cars or something around the yard . Be Douka: Yes. G. Totman: I have his letter that he sent to you , but I don't know what transpired afterwards. Be Douka: I got everything cleaned up and I never heard nothing more from him. G. Totman : Okay, that's all I wanted . If he says that, then we're all set on that. Obviously, we can't approve somebody if that case is pending. Be Douka: Right. G. Totman: So other than that, does the Board - - (Jeff enters) we're talking about the first thing on the agenda. J. Lewis: Okay, G. Totman: It would be my recommendation, and I would like to hear from members of the Board, that if they feel they can live with no more than three customers' cars awaiting repair in the yard, the hours would be from 8 to 5, and no working on Sundays, and if George agrees to that, then we would set a public hearing for the August meeting. I would need a motion and a second to that. 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 J. Fitch: Would you like to vote on your negative dec motion first? G. Totman: I thought we did that. J. Fitch: No. Cecil made the motion, but it never went any farther. Therefore , it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Cecil Twigg, seconded by Sheldon Clark, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration. G. Totman : Any questions? C. Twigg: I don't see why -- well, you've got to talk to George . G. Totman : We can make all this, and the only thing that would stop it would be if George said, and he's sure he's okay with George, he's still in battle with him. George gave him until June 17th to clean up the yard , and that's why we want to make sure, and why I was going into such detail earlier, was to make sure he understood , because I knew we had this letter on the books and obviously if somebody's already in violation for having too much junk around there, you don't want to give them a permit to have more around . C. Twigg: We've done that before . G. Totman: Yes, and we got our knickers nicked. So I will see George tomorrow, and if he agrees with you, then we'll schedule a public hearing for the third Thursday in August. I have to have a motion . C. Twigg: I'll make that motion that we schedule the public hearing for our next meeting for this auto repair shop , with the provision that the Code Enforcement Officer is satisfied that the applicant has done what he' s supposed to do, and with the provisions that we've agreed to : that the hours will be from 8 to 5 Monday thru Saturday, there will be no more than three customer cars that are licensed and operable in the yard at any one time, and that offstreet parking will be provided. G. Totman : Is that agreeable with you? B. Douka: Yes, S. Clark: I'll second the motion. G. Totman : All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) Okay? B . Douka: Yes . Thank you . Joseph Draghi, Subdivider/Barbara Bushnell, Owner - 105 McLean-Cortland Rd. - Minor Subdivision Application - TM # 39446 . 5 G. Totman : Okay, let's move on. We're going to be talking to some people now that have looked at our Town and want to move into it. They want to buy some land and move to McLean . You should have gotten a little map in your packet. What this is, if you hold it like this, going out of McLean , this little spot on the corner right down here is where that new little, looks like a modular home there, his name is Greg Vestal who lives there. And then there's that trailer that' s kind of falling apart that' s there . And that's in this little B section. J. Draghi: Not any more . G. Totman: Is it gone now? J. Draghi: No -- rebuilt -- revitalized. 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 G. Totman: Revitalized? Okay. Anyway - - did you take the beer cans out? J. Draghi. They did all that prior. G. Totman: Where the green is is going to stay. This is part of the whole parcel, okay? C -- where you see K. Draghi. It's A. C is the big part. G. Totman : A is the red house that's there now . That's where George Bushnell lived . And they're saving that part of it out -- it's 165 feet along the road and I'm not sure what the depth is. But what he's asking to do is to have a two-lot subdivision. The reason -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- is he's borrowing money to buy the whole property and banks don't like to loan money for anything more than 3 or 4 acres. So in order to be able to get a loan from the bank for where he wants to live, he's got to separate B from C, and that's why he's asking for the subdivision. Otherwise , it would be a one -lot subdivision and he wouldn't have had to come to us . But what he's asking for in B is about 10 acres. The bank's agreed to that, but they wouldn't agree to the whole thing. C. Twigg: How much is in the whole thing? J. Draghi: The whole thing was 61 , 93, but B is 10± acres and C is going to be plus or minus 45 . G. Totman: The only thing he's taking out of that 61 is that little small spot there where A is. J. Draghi. We don't know what that is yet, but it's between three and five . We'll know Monday morning at 9 o'clock. G. Totman : Are you familiar with where we're talking about? S. Clark: Yes, G. Totman : The barn that's there that looks like it goes to the house is going to go with this property here , now, and that will be part of the property where the mobile home is. Does anybody have any questions or problems with this? S. Clark: That house is quite close to the barn, isn't it? G. Totman: Well , it's farther away from the barn than it looks . J. Draghi: When you stop and look at it, it's actually quite a ways. We're going to have quite a lot of land on that -- on the east side of that barn, really. Enough room to get hay wagons and stuff. We made sure of that. There's quite a lot of room here. G. Totman : Do one of you guys want to go through the SEAR? J. Lewis: Go ahead, Cecil, you're the man . Board Member Twigg then reads aloud Part H of the Short Environmental Assessment Form . Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part He Therefore , it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Sheldon Clark, seconded by Cecil Twigg, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact , resulting in a negative declaration , G. Totman: Okay, does anybody have any questions on this? C. Twigg: So you're actually buying the whole thing? J. Draghi: Except the house -- and her garage. 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 Co Twigg: But you've got to parcel off into two lots in order for the bank to -- that doesn't make sense . J. Draghi: It's really quite foolish, because when we're all done, we're going to own Parcel C for $ 1 . G. Totman: Bobby (referring to Bob Walpole) can further explain it because he deals with the banks all the time on this . R. Walpole: These banks won't take a large parcel like that. A lot of times they will just take a transfer for $ 1 in the end, or just cut it out and still transfer it on one deed. Then the bank will only take the mortgage on that one survey. G. Totman : I have never figured out why the banks do this. I had a guy come to me once and he wanted to do a subdivision on his property, but he couldn't come up with enough road frontage for the extra lots. So I kept -- and this was 4 or 5 years ago - - asking why do you want to do it? Are you going to sell it? No, I don't want to sell it. Finally he told me he wanted to refinance his house and he couldn't refinance his house because he owned too much land, and the bank was only loaning the money if he would put it into two deeds and they would loan him the money on the house . J. Draghi: The banks aren't in the real estate business and they think about how long it's going to take them to sell it, and they have to pay taxes on it. We couldn' t find a bank that would do it any other way. G. Totman: Anybody got any questions other than that? I, personally, unless -- does anybody think we need a public hearing on this? I can't see where there would be any complaints in the neighborhood. From my standpoint, and I know the area, the only thing I can see changing in the area right now is somebody is moving out of a mobile home that's there and somebody else is going to move into it. That's about the only visual thing that I think you're going to see , and the only difference that I can see -- and I don't know these people at all -- but I think you'll see less beer cans around than before. J. Draghi: Yes, you're going to see visual improvements . We have Clydesdale horses. J. Fitch: Don' t forget you still need a motion for this matter. G. Totman : Okay, C. Twigg: So we've got to make a motion to this effect? G. Totman : It would be my recommendation that, as it's presented now, it has the proper road frontage, both particular lots. I see no reason why it can't be approved as is, unless somebody wants to argue with me ; then we'll have a public hearing. C. Twigg: I don't want a public hearing. Do you want a public hearing, Jeff?? J. Lewis: No, sir. I don't see any problem with it. I make a motion to approve the subdivision as requested and waive the public hearing. S. Clark: I second that motion . G. Totman: All in favor`? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) You're all set. Have you paid yet? Yes, they paid. J. Draghi: Do I get any paperwork, or do I need anything? G. Totman: No. Probably you'll need paperwork from the bank -- they don't care. Don't they want proof that you did it? J. Draghi: No, they'll get it from the surveyor. They don't care what else is there, but I will need something . 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 G. Totman: Do you want it tomorrow or Monday? Are you around tomorrow? J. Draghi: Yes, G. Totman : Do you need it tomorrow? You ought to stop in tomorrow. I can call Carol first thing in the morning and have her type it up and I can sign it right after lunch . So if that's the case, I'll have Carol send it out in the mail tomorrow afternoon. J. Draghi: That would be great. G. Totman : Before we listen to Bob, I want to do one thing before I forget it. I want to be serious now and it's on the record. Colleen put some things out for you -- a letter she got from Frank Proto. He's on the County Board of Reps. I didn't know she was going to do that, so I made up one for each one of you , only mine is two pages. You don't have to read them now, but I want you to read them over carefully and give it some thought. On Monday night, the 29th, the County Rural Affairs Committee is going to be here in Groton to listen to the residents as to what problems they have, compliments, if any, or what they think about the County Board, what they'd like to see changed , what services they're not getting -- just a general, town-meeting type thing. There's not supposed to be any people up front telling you why you're wrong for what you're saying. They're supposed to be listening, condensing it, and putting it together later. Then we'll have a meeting. The reason I say it that was is because a lot of times when you go to a meeting like this, people don't like to come and say anything because one of these bozos up front is going to talk them down and tell them they don't know what they're talking about. This is not supposed to happen that way. And this type of meeting has been done in Caroline, Enfield, and Lansing. And now it's being done in Groton. One of the reasons that it's being done right now -- and it was going to be done sometime anyway - - is to have the Board become more familiar with Groton . And you people might not be involved as much with it as Bobby is, but there's an active committee working in Groton right now trying to revitalize Main Street and new major things involved with the Town and the school to see if they can't do something to get Groton back economically -- back on the map, so to speak. These people from the Board of Reps that are coming know about this, and they're also looking at it to see if they can be of any help to what the needs are in Groton . And I really and truthfully would like to have people really consider coming. Because, very honestly, I've been pushing for this and if we get a group of people from the County to come out here, and I think the Chairman of the Board is coming, and a few other people besides this committee, and only four or five people show up , it makes it look like Groton doesn't give a shit about what's going on . C. Twigg: Well, how much are you paying? We could probably get a busload or two. G. Totman : Let's go on with the meeting. Robert? Cornelius Property Update/Robert Walpole, Rep. - TM # 26- 1 -25 R. Walpole: Two things. On the Cornelius property -- we got one building permit from George and they're going to break two lots out. Neither one of them are sold yet. Where the old house sat, and the barns, they're going to put in a mobile home, and they're going to put another home in where the garage is. Two to three-acre site lots, 150-foot frontage. We'll be bring then plan in . We've got some people looking at the larger parcels so it's going to be a major subdivision before we get through . Across the road we've got the 3 acres that went with the barn that Marchell bought and there's people looking at the balance of this here. I think we were in here once before for a Site Plan Review. Anyway, we're well aware that we need subdivision approval . We don't need it yet, but next month we may. We're not exactly sure how it's going to be . . . . . . . but we need to sell these couple lots. The second lot will trigger the subdivision on that side of the road. We're well aware of that. But we wanted to make the Board informed in case you receive a nasty phone call in reference to "don't you know you need subdivision approval?" Any dumb SOB knows that. G. Totman: You got a phone call from who? R. Walpole: He wouldn't identify himself, but I told him you dumb SOB - - anybody calls and won 't give their name -- we're well aware of the subdivision rules -- basically, this is to let the Board know that 8 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 we're certainly aware of what's required -- in case you get a nasty phone call. He was an irritated bastard. G. Totman: Do you want to say that again so we can get it on tape? R. Walpole: Put it on tape and make it part of the minutes. It should be. Anyway, we will be back in and we're working with George Senter on it and he's well aware of it and he's issued one building permit. Obviously, before anything is closed on this --- C. Twigg: Well, he can' t issue the next one anyway. R. Walpole: That's correct -- without subdivision approval . G. Totman: Well, one of the reasons is -- people will see something happening in a certain area. and they might say to you or somebody else, these people got a subdivision? I haven't heard anything about it. This way here, it gives us a chance to say yes, we know what's happening. It saves a lot of BS. C. Twigg: But there's no way they can put anything on there until they have a subdivision . R. Walpole: That's correct. But anyway, that's for the record . McBride's Property - TM #s 36- 1 - 1 . 12 , 1 . 11 , 1 . 129 1 . 139 1 . 14, and 1 . 15 R. Walpole: The next thing is McBride's property. I guess we got a couple questions. We got a letter from Mike Lane -- we're certainly well aware of what deed restrictions are , but I have a couple questions in reference to the subdivision . Did they pull the file? I asked them to. On McBride . Is there a big map in there? G. Totman : This is Tax Map #36- 1 - which part are you talking about? R. Walpole: Well, you've got the whole thing here, but to clarify a couple of points. Apparently when this subdivision went into effect -- it was a four-unit subdivision, based on the deed restrictions when this thing was designed , because as it said it had to be a five-unit subdivision -- one, two , three, four, five. A five-unit subdivision, which apparently took in the existing house . The deed restrictions indicate only four houses to be placed on the subdivision. What we're assuming is four new houses - - or is it counting the existing house that was there? C. Twigg: Well, that certainly sounds like what you're assuming. R. Walpole: Four new houses. Co Twigg: Yes. R. Walpole: See, the only houses on there right now is Parcel 3, we've got the existing house on Parcel 4A -- well then, there was a new house built but was built on the property line . So apparently they had to come back and change the subdivision. G. Totman : That's right. Because you remember that one foundation was on another lot. R. Walpole: Okay. But then that triggered Parcel 2A, right? G. Totman : That's right. R. Walpole: Okay. So technically there's only two houses on this subdivision -- Parcel 3 and Parcel 2. G. Totman : Three is Chase , right? R. Walpole: Chase , right. 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 C. Twigg: That's the original 2? R. Walpole: Yes. Well, these up here were never changed . I don't think we got any questions up here. You can only build one house there and it cannot be subdivided, which is no problem. That's where the deed restrictions are . And you got a new house here. So you got two new houses. So the only place you can build is one in this lot here and then the other one Daugherty owns so he can't build on that, based on the deed restrictions. C. Twigg: Oh, they interpreted that as - - they counted the original house? R. Walpole: Well, I don't know . See, Chase has got a new house and there's a new house here . So if you build two more, you got two different -- well, when they changed the subdivision they created another lot here . But the deed restrictions were for a four-unit subdivision. G. Totman: Do you have the deed restrictions? R. Walpole: Oh yes, right here. G. Totman: See, we don't get involved with these. Do you have this? This is what was given to us . R. Walpole: Yes, this is it right here. G. Totman: Where does it say four lots in there? R. Walpole: It says four houses. Because Mike Lane -- let me get my papers. I knew you could put two more houses in there . G. Totman : Well, is Mike Lane the lawyer for -- R. Walpole: For Chase , G. Totman : Somebody that wants to put a house in, or some body that doesn't? R. Walpole: Well, there's nothing Mike Lane can do . You can still build two houses up there . G. Totman: He's trying to stop it? R. Walpole: That's correct. He can't stop it. But it's very clear there's restrictions here . But the question is, see, now if this lot had not been developed -- one , two , three, four -- the subdivision was designed for the four houses -- no questions asked . But the deed restrictions -- now we got one , two , three , four -- even though I haven't discussed this with Daugherty or anything, but you see Daugherty bought this five-acre lot. It's strictly vacant land . McBride wants to sell Parcel 4B which is a perfectly legal lot -- they can build a house there, and he wants to sell Parcel 2A. But this subdivision was re- created afterwards. C. Twigg: So it's a different subdivision? R. Walpole: It's a different subdivision. I mean as far as deed restrictions, it says four houses find that someplace for you here, George. But, so, one, two houses already in the subdivision -- and you've got three lots left, so one of these lots they're going to get screwed on . But my question was, when you originally started the subdivision was it a five-unit subdivision? See, now it's six. That's my question . G. Totman: We passed this one here. R. Walpole: Here it is right here . "Whereas Richard VanOrder is the owner. . . . are being subdivided into four separate parcels as shown on a map made by Milton Greene dated January 26, 1989. 6 . " 10 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 G. Totman: All right. But in 1991 we made that more than four. But there was never any rules that we made that - - I mean, he's got an approval. R. Walpole: Oh, I fully understand that. G. Totman : They are going by this. It's nothing that we pass. It's just something to give to us to show what he was doing himself. R. Walpole: Okay. But the deed restrictions were set up for a five-unit subdivision. G. Totman: Yes, you could read that into it. R. Walpole: So technically, as it stands right now --- G. Totman : Which one of the four don't fall within this? R. Walpole: Well technically 4B is legal. And I would say Parcel 1 is legal. I'm wondering about Parcel 2A, but there's no house , so I think whoever builds a house first. G. Totman: This is what was originally passed . R. Walpole: There it is right there, see . One , two, three, four, five -- right there it is . J. Lewis: Who made the deed restrictions? R. Walpole: VanOrder. The deed restrictions run with the land . C. Twigg: The guy that bought it knew they were there? R. Walpole: Oh , yes. There is a deed and Chase knows they're there and he's perfectly happy with it. You can't subdivide it. There's no question you have to comply with this. But you've got an extra lot. G. Totman : We passed it. They revised it. Then I signed it. C. Twigg: There were no deed restrictions as to the number of lots, just the number of houses. R. Walpole: Number of lots. Four separate parcels. C. Twigg: But how could you do six if there are deed restrictions on it? R. Walpole: That's the question I'm asking the Planning Board , C. Twlae. We don't really know what's in deed restrictions . R. Walpole: No, but the deed restrictions were passed when you passed the previous subdivision . G. Totman : Now let me go over this one more time. He wants to sell the lots - - R. Walpole: Which he can sell, legally - - no problem. G. Totman : And one of the people that bought one of the lots has gone to his lawyer and says in my deed it says he can only sell four lots or have four . . . . . If that is a deed restriction , there's nothing this Board can do anything about it. All we can tell you is from what I see, and what's passed here, he can sell them for a building lot. We can instruct George, from our standpoint, that he can put a building on anything here. R. Walpole: That's correct -- he can sell any one of these . G. Totman: But what we can't get involved with is what he put in his deed restrictions. 11 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 R. Walpole: No, but the deed restrictions were in the original subdivision. G. Totman: And he changed that? C. Twigg: No. G. Totman : No, he changed the original subdivision . R. Walpole: Someone did . G. Totman : He came back to us to do it. R. Walpole: Because apparently the house got built on the property line . C. Twigg: I don't remember the deed restriction part. G. Totman : No. We have a copy -- C. Twngg: I don't think we were involved with any of that. G. Totman : What he did was, in '89 he gave us a copy of his declaration of tract restrictions. That was his, not ours. R. Walpole: But the subdivision was designed around those tract restrictions. G. Totman: And then , because the people that bought the lot and started building a house didn't use the proper surveyor, and they put their basement over the line , he had to come back to us and get an extra lot in there so it would make the house legal . So he's got one more lot than he originally went for, but in so doing, the maps are all here -- the map Bobby's got was signed by the Chairman of the Planning Board, dated , and it was approved . If Mr. Chase doesn't want somebody building next door to him, that's his problem with the developer and not with us. R. Walpole: Well, number one , Chase can't stop -- as the deed restrictions say, there's four. G. Totman : The vacant lot could be down here? R. Walpole: That's correct. G. Totman: Do you want to tell Mike Lane to call me? R. Walpole: No . We'll tell him to go see our lawyers. It's very clear to us. I don't care what Mike Lane says. G. Totman: Well, he's the lawyer. He's the one - - R. Walpole: I don't give a spit who he is . G. Totman : But the lawyer can cause a lot of problems. R. Walpole: No, he can't. It's very clear that -- what he's saying is there's so many parcels. Well, we can still build two new houses because the restrictions say four houses. I don't give a shit what he says. He might be a smart attorney, but he can't go against these restrictions. G. Totman: No, but in the same token, this guys got approval to sell all these lots. R. Walpole: They're all sold except these two here . G. Totman : If he -- wait a minute -- see if I'm right and let me finish - - see if it's the way you see it. He sells all the lots and all of them come in for building permits. George can legally give them a building 12 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 permit. The problem lies within -- if these guys don't say anything and don't go back to the owner or whoever, and exercise the rights in their deeds, this guy can build it and go. It's nothing to do with the Town of Groton. R. Walpole: I was just bringing this to the attention of -- you know, was this ever discussed? Because you did have a copy of the restrictions. C. Twigg: I don't remember those. G. Totman: I remember him telling us what he was going to do, because like he was going to allow a mobile home if it was a double-wide and it cost over $35 ,000 and stuff like that. I remember he came in with all that. See , the reason that says four lots is because that's all he had at that particular time . He came back and got the fifth lot at a later date . He didn't go change that to the fifth lot so he actually screwed himself. R. Walpole: Well, he couldn't change it because he'd already sold to Chase . Once you sold the lot, there's no changing it, unless he signs off. C. Twigg: The only ones I can remember having deed restrictions was Roger Gleason. That's the only one I remember talking about putting deed restrictions, R. Walpole: These are tract restrictions or, actually, deed restrictions, too - - the same thing. C. Twigg: But I don't recall these deed restrictions here you're referring to . Was it part of the meeting, or something he brought in later? G. Totman : Part of the meeting. If you go home and look in your files for that subdivision that you keep so good, you'll find that in there . R. Walpole: The other question, and this becomes a legal question for our attorneys - - since there's two houses built and you actually can build two more houses based on the restrictions, there's only two lots left, and there's been three lots sold . So if he doesn't build a house - -- G. Totman : Well, it all depends on who builds the first house. Somebody's going to get screwed . J. Lewis: What happens if all three of them decide to break ground on the same day or came in and go building permits the same day? Then who would lose out -- the one who took occupancy last? R. Walpole: Good question . G. Totman : See , it all depends on the Code Enforcement Officer - - depending on who's here at that particular time. I know some CEOs like in the Town of Ithaca or the Town of Cortlandville , that if they knew that they wouldn't give them a permit. But that's illegal. The attorneys will tell you that you , as a CEO for the Town, have no right to get involved with deed restrictions. So looking at it that way, they come in and they get building permits . The guy that's going to have his thing in a sling is the guy that sold the lot. Because one of these guys, if they want to exercise their rights - - the last house that goes up will have to come back down. C. Twigg: And somebody's got to pay for that. G. Totman : If that owner's still around that sold all that and sold that lot -- if they've got a good attorney. What he's done is created -- - R. Walpole: He's created an extra lot that shouldn't be there . G. Totman: It's one of the things you learn, because we probably should have told him that at that particular time . He should change this to five. Back then he might have been able to . See that was back in '91 . 13 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 R. Walpole: The original subdivision wasn't a five-lot subdivision, so when they got in the dispute, all they did was traded the land off and made another building lot. G. Totman: We had quite a hassle at that time ; I remember that. R. Walpole: Technically, the next door neighbor, Daugherty, bought that in good faith with the idea he could build a house there. He bought it three or four years ago. C. Twigg: So what's the solution? R. Walpole: I don't know. I'm going to call McBride. As far as I'm concerned, Daugherty should be over farther. I have no idea what his intentions are . C. Twigg: But the guy that created that fifth lot, it should be straightened out while he's still around . G. Totman : VanOrder. C. Twigg: You might be able to straighten that out now. R. Walpole: Let me ask you a question . When McBride, when he bought this from VanOrder, he must have bought 4A, 4B, and 2A. G. Totman: I really don't know. So right now, McBride still owns this and this? R. Walpole: Yes. This lot here was formed into the fifth lot. G. Totman: Either this person or that person should buy that lot. R. Walpole: Oh , I agree. But he can't subdivide it based on the restrictions. G. Totman : He must have known that when he bought it. R. Walpole: Oh , yes. Everybody got a copy of the restrictions in the deed. G. Totman : And this lot has already been sold? R. Walpole: No, no. This lot's a legal lot. That was in the original subdivision. G. Totman : But what I mean is there's no house on it yet but the lot has been sold . R. Walpole: Not yet. G. Totman: Does the guy that bought the major part of this live over here yet? R. Walpole: No. He's in Texas. G. Totman : I would think they would buy this guy off and get him to sign off on it. He's the only one who's built on it. R. Walpole: But somebody's built here and here, see . C. Twigg: Now those deed restrictions -- now they stay with that property forever. R. Walpole: For at least 20 years and they have the option to renew. C. Twigg: But the original guy has to renew it. Say if I went in there and said I'll buy the whole damn thing, but I've got these deed restrictions and I can't subdivide it. How long have I got to wait before I can subdivide that? 14 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 July 1996 G. Totman: You've got to wait 20 years, then you've got to have everybody that bought in there sign off on it. C. Twigg: No, say if I owned them all myself. G. Totman: They are still separate lots. If you owned them all and you didn't sell any of them, then you're right. You just go to the courthouse and change the deeds. But once you've sold one lot, then you can't do it anymore. R. Walpole: The other question is, technically there was one, two , three, four lots that were legal based on the deed restrictions in the original subdivision. Now you've got any extra parcel and , technically, this parcel is worthless based on these deed restrictions if this ---- G. Totman: But if somebody buys this right now and builds on it, then this is worthless. R. Walpole: That's correct. Daugherty may never build a house, but he bought it in good faith . If this house is built -- J. Lewis: Well, he could build a pole barn or garage, or something like that on there -- that wouldn't be a house . C. Twigg: Now -- another scenario, Bob. Sometimes a guy comes in and buys the hole subdivision -- G. Totman: Hold it. Could I stop just a minute? C. Twigg: No -- a guy comes in and buys -- G. Totman : Hey -- Cecil. For the purpose of the Planning Board and the minute-taking and all that, why don't we close the meeting and then take up the discussion . C. Twigg: Okay, close it up. G. Van Slyke : I make the motion we adjourn. C. Twigg: I'll second it. G. Totman : All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.) It's 9: 32 . Thank you . The meeting was adjourned at 9 * 32 p.m . Respectfully submitted, f4 ban E. Fitch Recording Secretary 15