HomeMy WebLinkAbout1996-06-20 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD PUBLIC HEARING & MEETING
Thursday, 20 June 1996
Board Members (*present) Others Present
*George Totman , Chairman Joan E. Fitch , Recording Secretary
*Monica Carey Peg & Don Palmer • John Banas
*Sheldon Clark Sherry O'Brien & wife
Jeff Lewis Franklin C. Volbrecht
*Verl Rankin Charles Volbrecht • Bob Bernhardt
*Cecil T vigg Richard L. Cloitz Suzanne E . Camin
*George VanSlyke
The Public Hearing was called to order at 8 :00 p.m. by George Totman, Chairperson who read
the Legal Notice, as published:
NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN, that a public hearing will be held by the Planning Board of the Town
of Groton, Tompkins County, New York, on Thursday, June 20, 1996, at 8:00 PM at the Town Hall,
101 Conger Boulevard, for the purpose of a re-configuration on Donald & Margaret Palmer's
approved major subdivision. Said premises are [sic] located on Pleasant Valley Road
George L. Totman, Chairman
Dated 7 June 1996 Town of Groton Planning Board
Donald N. & Margaret A Palmer - Subdivision Revision - 320 Pleasant Valley Rd. - TM # 35 . 00- 14
G. Totman : For information purposes, Mr. Palmer, would you just briefly like to state what you're
changing for the public - - what you're asking to be changed .
D. Palmer: Yes, I 'll basically restate what I presented at the meeting a few weeks ago. Basically, it's
just stating there was a public hearing last fall, October of '95, in which there was approval by the
Planning Board at that point with no opposition . We're asking now to come back in and amend the
lines somewhat from the original proposal, and there would be -- we're talking about six lots, about 6 to
16 acres a piece . We did some public advertising at that point and found out that some interesting facts
have come to the forefront and the long and short of it is that there appears to be much more interest
by the governing agencies in financing smaller lots than the larger ones. We're looking to make two
changes with basically the same original proposal , but two additional lots out of this. They would still
range in size from about five and a-half acres, the smallest one, being up to about eleven acres.
G. Totman : Is there anyone here that's concerned or here in connection with this subdivision?
Okay. For the record , the Planning Board met with the Palmers at the June 20th meeting and went over
the changes in the lot sizes and approved the preliminary plats and , by law, when that's done and you
change a major subdivision, you have to hold a public hearing: that's what we're doing tonight. If there
are no questions or anything from the public, and it's five after eight and it was scheduled for eight
o'clock, I will look for a motion to close the public hearing.
M. Carey: I make a motion to close the public hearing.
V. Rankin: I second it.
G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present were in favor. ) It is our normal procedure, because
there are activities going on after the public hearing, at the end of the meeting we go over this, but
because of the fact there is no problem here and the next thing on our agenda is at 8: 15, would the
Planning Board want to proceed with a vote on this tonight, or ask further questions?
M. Carey: I don't see why we can't just vote on it. I haven't heard any opposition to it.
V. Rankin: I make a motion we approve the subdivision as re-configured .
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
G. Van Slyke : I'll second that.
G. Totman : All those in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor.)
Minutes of May 169 1996 Planning Board Meeting
G. Totman: Minutes of the last meeting -- anybody have any comments.
V. Rankin: Yes, I do. On the last page, I said where I said there was 4480" acres, ---
G. Totman : At the bottom of page 9, Verl Rankin said, "She's got about 80 acres . "
V. Rankin: That's wrong -- it should be eight acres.
M. Carey: I wondered about that when I read it.
G. Totman : Any other corrections of these minutes?
G. Van Slyke : I make the motion we approve the minutes of the last meeting as corrected .
M. Carey: I'll second .
G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) Is Bernard Douka
here? (No response. ) Well , would anybody have any objections if we move ahead on the agenda and
taking the 8 : 30 item, then come back to do the 8 : 15 item?
G. Van Slyke : Okay,
Frank Volbrecht - Site Plan Review - 132 West Groton Rd. - TM # 22 . 1 - 12. 2
G. Totman : The next thing on our agenda is Frank Volbrecht, and he is requesting to operate a
motorcycle repair shop on West Groton Road -- 132 West Groton Road . Would you like to explain to
the Board what you're planning on doing or hope to be doing?
F. Volbrecht: Well, I'm not going to be putting up any new buildings or anything; I'm just going to
work out of the garage that's already there . I'll be doing basic motorcycle repair and NYS inspections.
There's no bike shops in the area or anybody around here to get any decent service unless you drive to
Ithaca, Cortland, or out to Auburn, or Cycle Service Center down to Locke.
G. Totman: And you're planning on doing it in the barn behind the house?
F. Volbrecht: No, in the house -- in the two-bay garage .
G. Totman: Next to the house?
F. Volbrecht: Right. The barn out back is just for storage.
G. Totman: You're not going to have sales there like where you sell motorcycles?
F. Volbrecht: No .
G. Totman: Absolutely no sales?
F. Volbrecht: There might be one or two used bikes or something if I pick one up .
G. Totman : Well, what I was thinking about is. . . .
F. Volbrecht: I'm not going to be a retail dealer.
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 0 June 1996
G. Totman: What I was thinking about is if you had outside vehicles how it might affect the
neighborhood. That's our main function is to make sure other people's properties are not devaluated,
because we can hold public hearings and things like that. So you have enough room in there so you
can keep all your activities inside the garage?
F. Volbrecht: Yes, definitely.
G. Totman : You would agree then that anytime during the day or part of the year when somebody's
driving by, they're not seeing motorcycles sitting around the garage and up and down the driveway and
stuff like that?
F. Volbrecht: Yes,
G. Totman: Does the Planning Board have any more questions?
M. Carey: How many bikes will you have there to repair?
G. Totman: They're all going to be inside .
F. Volbrecht: Yes, they will all be inside if they are there .
G. Totman: Yes, sir?
R. Bernhardt: George, may I add something. My name is Bob Bernhardt and I'm his neighbor. I own
200 acres right around him.
G. Totman: Across the road.
R. Bernhardt: Where he lives is the old farm -- chicken house and everything. He's had the chicken
house full of salvage where he has collected parts over the years all this time . He's been working helping
people as a favor, fix motorcycles. He helps his friends . Helps me . He found a motorcycle for me to buy
for my son. He's never had a problem -- I've never had a problem -- everything is stored inside and the
only thing he brings out is whatever he's going to be working on that day.
G. Totman: And you live right across the road, right?
R. Bernhardt: Yes, And I own all the land around him except for that one little place on the end of
the dirt road, the modular home. So we're all kind of a close knit group right in there . That's a young
couple and they come over all the time. I really don't anticipate any problems.
G. Totman : Well you know what our job is . Why we have to ask questions.
R. Bernhardt: I understand , George, sure . But I don' t expect, from what he's been telling me, and
we're real close neighbors, that he's going to have anything more going on there than he's had right
along. It's just that now he wants to get paid for it. It was my suggestion to him to quit doing all these
freebies and start earning some money to pay the mortgage.
G. Totman: That will help. Okay?
V. Rankin: I have no problem.
M. Carey: Okay.
G. Totman: Now, from what you're telling me -- I just want to make sure , and I sound like a broken
record sometimes, but believe me, we have a lot of problems lots of times with people starting these
things up and then the CEO drives by six months later and the neighbors are complaining, and all sorts
of things, so for the record you're stating, and correct me if I'm wrong, that except for maybe having a
sign out front saying that this is where you are and what you're going to be doing and you get the sign
off of the Zoning Enforcement Officer, the outside appearance of the property will not be any different
than it has been in the past.
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
F. Volbrecht: That's true.
G. Totman: And there will be no customers vehicles, and the ones being repaired and the ones that
are waiting to be repaired will be stored inside.
F. Volbrecht: Correct,
G. Totman: So if we issue a Special Permit giving you the legal authority to run that repair shop --
which you got to have before you get your State inspection thing -- and we put those stipulations on
there, you can live with that?
F. Volbrecht: Yes.
G. Totman: The reason I make it sound that way is because six months from now when George
Senter comes by in doing his job that the Town hires him to do, I just want to make sure we all
understand each other.
F. Volbrecht: Right.
G. Totman: You've got lots of room for people? One of the things we're supposed to make sure of is
that you've got offstreet parking so that people don't park along the road and cause traffic hazards .
F. Volbrecht: It's not a problem whatsoever.
Co Twigg: One thing I question a little bit is is he going to be able to live with his having no
motorcycles out front? Now he could have motorcycles there and there could be one sitting out in front
of that garage every now and then . And . . . .
F. Volbrecht: Once in awhile during the day when I'm working on something .
G. Totman : Yes, but I think what code enforcement people look at and what the neighbors might
complain about, if that same one that's sitting out there is sitting out there for weeks at a time. If
somebody has a junk car and it's only out there a week or two, nobody gets cited for the junk car. Cecil
is making a good point -- if people know that you have this stipulation and they drive by and somebody
didn't like you , they call up George and say I just saw a motorcycle sitting outside . But George has to
use some common sense and reasoning and he does. He's got other things to do without that sort of
thing .
F. Volbrecht: Well , during the day if I'm working on something and if I have to push it outside the
garage to get another bike in or something. At night, if everything gets put inside, under cover, and is
locked up, and you can't steal a junk car as easily as you can steal a motorcycle --
G. Totman : Well, it's really not unusual to allow one to be outside if it's in the stipulations. Here
we're saying there's going to be none on the outside on a day-to-day basis.
F. Volbrecht: Right,
G. Totman : Anybody else have any questions? Any action that we take requires an Environmental
Review, so we have to go through this motion.
G. Van Slyke: You ready to do this?
G. Totman : Yes.
G. Van Slyke : Okay, this is the back side of the Environmental Assessment,
Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part II of the Short Environmental
Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part II. Therefore, it
was determined by the Planning Board, upon a motion made by Monica Carey, seconded by Cecil
Twigg, with all members present voting in favor, that the action , based on the information
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative
declaration.
M. Carey: Are we going to talk about hours of operation for this?
G. Totman : Well, first of all you've got to decide whether you want to have a public hearing or not ;
secondly, you've got to decide if the hours are important. It's more important when you have a body and
fender shop where you have a lot of noise out there that affects the neighbors and somebody doesn't
want to hear you pounding on a fender at 8, 9, 10 o'clock at night when they're trying to sleep. I'm not
sure how much noise is created by working on motorcycles .
V. Rankin: The only bad thing would be if you wanted to get it out about 10 o'clock at night to try
it out.
G. Totman: One of the areas where we can do it instead of saying you can't go out there -- if you
want to work on something until 11 or 12 o'clock at night to get it out for your customer the next day, I
don't think anybody cares, but you might make a stipulation in there that after 7 o'clock at night no
outside noise that would affect the neighbors would be permitted, or something like that. Do you follow
the reason I'm saying that? So you don't get one fixed and go outside and rev it up and sound off to see
if everything is kind of ticking okay.
F. Volbrecht: That's not a problem .
G. Totman : Does that make sense? Like 7, 8 o'clock at night? What do you want to come up with?
Would it be too restrictive if we said after 7 o'clock at night?
F. Volbrecht: It's not like I'm going to bother the neighbors anyway, but I would like to have it like 8
o'clock.
G. Totman : See how this sounds. First of all, let me back up. Mr. Bernhardt is here and he owns
all the land around him except one little small parcel . Do those people know you are here tonight?
F. Volbrecht: Yes.
G. Totman : What are their names?
F. Volbrecht: Dean and Brenda Conklin .
G. Totman : Do they own the property , or do they rent?
F. Volbrecht: They own it.
G. Totman : Ninety-nine percent of the neighbors around it are here tonight. And I'm not going to
say one way or the other. But we got to decide if we want to hold a public hearing or do you want to
make a motion to approve/disapprove tonight? If you want to make a motion to approve it tonight,
then you have to include that you wish to bypass the public hearing. And , if so, before you make a
motion, you want to make sure we, the Board, and the applicant agree what the stipulations are. We
talked about it, so what I've written down while you were talking, or while I was talking, is that: ( 1)
there will be no outside storage of the motorcycles (and storage means continually stored outside, it
does not mean sitting outside during the hours of operation) , and (2) there will be no outside visible
noise occurring on the property concerning the repair shop after 8 o'clock at night.
J. Fitch: How about audible noise? Noise isn't visible .
G. Totman : I should say after eight o'clock at night and not before seven o'clock in the morning.
F. Volbrecht: Sounds reasonable.
G. Totman : What do you want to do with that now?
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
V. Rankin: I move we forego the public hearing and approve the permit for a motorcycle repair shop
with the following conditions: ( 1 ) that there will be no outside storage of motorcycles, and (2) there will
be no noise associated with the business between the hours of 8 p.m. and 7 a.m.
S. Clark: I'll second that motion .
G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present were in favor. ) Carried. Now you get with George
and Carol and they will type up a permit and those conditions will be on the permit. If George comes
around six months from now (I say George, or that person) , and you're not complying with what's
written there, that's the reason for this. We've got other people with people not complying with their
conditions even though they've set here and agreed to everything. I just want to make sure you know it
up front and it's in the minutes so that we all understand each other.
F. Volbrecht: How soon will that paperwork be ready to pick up? The first of next week, or. . . . .
G. Totman: She probably could have it if you called her up in the morning and asked her if' she
might be able to have it by tomorrow afternoon. I'll leave this all with her and give her a note so she'll
know about it first thing tomorrow morning. And if she's got any questions, I always stop here Friday
afternoons after lunch . Okay.
R. Bernhardt: One other thing. This is the first time I've ever been to one of your meetings and I'm
pleased to see you brought your tables down front and set around here where we can hear you and
have an informal meeting, and I want to thank you for listening to us .
G. Totman: Thank you. Appreciate it.
Bernard L. Douka (Richard Clark Property) - 462 Pleasant Valley Road - TM # 32- 1 -39
G. Van Slyke : Are you Richard Clark?
R. Clark: Yes.
G. Van Slyke: Okay.
R. Clark: He asked me to come down and help her out. This is the first time I've ever been down
in front of a Board to know.
G. Totman : Would you people like to come up and sit up front because we're running a tape
recorder and it makes it a lot easier. You're Tracy Douka?
T. Douka: Yes,
G. Totman : You're familiar then with what he's planning on doing or trying to do?
T. Douka: Somewhat.
R. Clark: I'm real familiar -- he keeps my RV going between here and Florida.
G. Totman : And they're buying the property oft' from you?
R. Clark: With a 21 -year lease and then we're going to have a closing.
G. Totman: Who's going to make the closing for you?
R. Clark: They've got to come up with the closing. When I went up in front of the lawyer he said
that's the best way for me to go .
G. Totman: Now when I do things like that and put that kind of time on it at my age, they want to
know who I'm going to have stand in for me .
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
M. Carey: It's not going to bother you that even though you own the property it's going to . . . .
G. Totman: He's not going to live around there so it's not going to make any difference to him. He's
going to be in Florida. How long has this lot been in existence in that particular size and form? You got
any idea?
R. Clark: The house itself was built in 1953. So I imagine that's when.
G. Totman: The only reason I ask is because it's a non-conforming lot. Do you know what I mean?
R. Clark: Yes. It's hot.
G. Totman: No -- it's a . 71 acres and all lots now have to be at least an acre. I just like to mention
that so that the owners know it because it's a "grandfathered" lot which makes it legal as long as it
stays that way. But you can't make new lots that small. It doesn't make a difference on what you're
applying for.
R. Clark: Yes,
G. Totman : Do you have a garage there?
R. Clark: Yes,
G. Totman: Did you give us a drawing of the property? (Everybody looks for drawing.) I don't see a
drawing that shows where the garage is in relation to the house . Is it attached to the house?
T. Douka: No.
R. Clark: If you've got a diagram of the property, I can probably go by memory the diagram of it. I
can draw you a diagram.
M. Carey: How big is this garage?
R. Clark: The garage itself is 24 by 30. 1 know it's that size because I had three cars in there one
winter, storing them.
G. Totman : Have you been repairing cars there now?
R. Clark: Yes,
G. Totman : And now you want to make what you have been doing legal?
T. Douka: Right.
M. Carey: Do you have any junk cars around there now?
R. Clark: Well there's a couple of them in the back yard now. That's it. When they got the notice
this year they cleaned them all up. In the past you've had the same trouble with me and we seem to get
along.
G. Totman: Well, the Town has an Ordinance that you can't have that. For example , in May of this
year you got a notice from the Code Enforcement Officer that you had junk cars out there . And when
you have a repair shop, it tends to be like a magnet for junk cars. That's why the question was asked.
And it doesn't make the neighbors very happy to have junk cars around . One of the things we have to
watch for if we're going to give a permit to operate a garage -- we can say you can have two service cars
out there -- but cars that we call junk cars are cars that are not "turnkey" cars. You cannot put a key
in the ignition, start it up, and drive it away. We can't allow that. With some of the older ones we're a
little more looser, but times change , people change , population is getting thicker around , and it just
isn't fair to other people if, when they try to sell their property, a potential buyer would look at it and see
all these junk cars and say they're not going to buy next to a place like that. So the reason I'm saying
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
that up front, ahead of time, is so you don't think we're picking on you as an individual. We have to
look at that with everybody. That's part of our job is trying to keep the Town in the right direction.
Obviously you're talking for somebody else, so without him (Bernard) here it's kind of hard to say can
you do this or can you do that and that sort of thing. And I'm just going to make a statement and then
the Planning Board can vote on it, and this is a little bit different situation than the one that was here
previously because he's out in the country farther than you are and the neighbor that was here with
him owns all land around him. So there wasn't much sense in holding a public hearing because the
only people we would send notice to was the guy that was here. You've got a lot of neighbors around
you there, so we'll probably have to have a public hearing on this at the July meeting. With that, do
any members of the Planning Board have any questions?
G. Van Slyke : I've just got a question on the summons you got from Senter. Did you get rid of the
vehicles that were there?
R. Clark: They're gone .
G. Totman : But you still got two there?
R. Clark: Well, one is a '62 Nova that a guy wants to fix up . And I don't see too many '62 Novas
around .
G. Totman: Is it visible from the road?
R. Clark: No. Neither one of them are visible from the road.
G. Totman : Then let me ask this. George is on vacation this week, George Senter. Has he told you
what he says about what you've done since he wrote you the letter?
R. Clark: He hasn't said a thing that I know of. See, the letters that come out here go to the
Groton Post Office and then all the way to Florida and I had to transfer it back here . We did get the cars
cleaned out.
G. Totman: You don't think Bernie will make it tonight then , do you?
R. Clark: Do you know where Lockwood is? Almost to the Pennsylvania border. They went
down there to get a Dodge going and I guess last he told he was up to $ 150 in the brain sensors and the
guy that owns the car is up in Cortland and they're trying to order another part.
G. Totman: Planning Board. Questions?
M. Carey: I really don't feel that we've got enough representation to really be able to make much of
a decision here because we don't know where the garage is located, we have no idea of how many cars
he's planning on working on at a time .
G. Van Slyke: We really don't have enough information .
S. Clark: Would you establish hours of operation?
G. Totman: Yes, we would with this one because you do have close neighbors .
R. Clark: I know what the hours of operation are. From 8 to 5. Supper is at 5. I've been there
and he stops at suppertime.
G. Totman: Is this strictly mechanical work, or body and fender?
R. Clark: Just mechanical .
G. Totman : The problems that we have are: # 1 we're supposed to know where the location is. I'm
surprised that they didn't ask you to do that when you first came in . We need a sketch plan of your
property with the house on it -- how far it is from the road , how far it is from the boundary lines, how
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
far is the garage from the house to make sure it's not attached . Because if you're going to run a MVRS
you've got to have fire separation in-between if they're too close together; if more than 5 feet apart you
don't. But I suppose we could set the hours of operation and we could set how many cars like we do
with other people that could be visible on the outside .
G. Van Slyke : But he's not the one that's going to operate it.
G. Totman : Well, I was going to say we could do that and set a public hearing. She could take it
home to him and if he don't agree to it, then we cancel the public hearing. And then work it out at the
next meeting. But otherwise, without having the information of knowing what he can agree to -- now
is this going to be a part-time thing?
T. Douka: Yes.
R. Clark: It's going to be a full-time thing. That's all he does.
T. Douka: Full-time, yes .
V. Rankin: Why don't we table this until next month?
C. Twigg: I don't think this is anything urgent, is it? They've been doing it for how long. This
isn't something that's got to be done this month is it?
G. Totman: I don't know, but you understand what we're talking about?
T. Douka: Somewhat.
R. Clark: You've got to understand it more than I do. If you don't understand what they're
talking about, ask them because they will explain it.
G. Totman: Yes. Because, you see, we have a responsibility to do what we're supposed to be doing.
And we can't very well give approval on something that we're not quite sure what we're giving an
approval on . And without knowing what he feels he can live with about cars on the outside -- because
here you have got a lot closer neighbors than if you lived out. And then there's noise -- and there's not
a lot of noise unless you get out and rev up the engine or something. We have to give our preliminary
approval to it before we set a public hearing date. Once we've set a public hearing date, that tells the
public that the Planning Board has looked it over and formulated appropriate decisions with the
applicant, and now it's ready to present to the public what is going to happen . We can't hold the public
hearing if we don't know what we're presenting to the public. And once we announce it and put it in
the paper, people can come in and ask the Clerk what it is and she's got to be able to give it to them; she
can't do that if we don't have the right information . So by that, we would have to wait to the third
Thursday in July to do the same thing over again that we're doing with you now. Then if everything
looks okay, we'll hold the public hearing in August.
C. Twigg: I think we're wasting time, George.
G. Van Slyke : George, take a piece of paper and write down what they need . They need the sketch
plan . Write down what they need in July when they come. There's no way you're going to have a public
hearing in July anyway.
G. Totman : What did you mean, Cecil?
C. Twigg: I think we're wasting time because we can't really make any decisions tonight anyhow.
Without him here, I don't see . . . .
G. Totman : That's what I just said and told her.
G. Van Slyke : This is my suggestion, Cecil. I suggest that we make a list -- first of all we need a site
plan showing the placement of the buildings on the lot, the garage in relationship to the house , we
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
need his feelings on how many vehicles he's going to be operating on at a time--hours of operation . We
need to know if he's going to have inoperables or whatever.
M. Carey: Only turnkey cars. . .
G. Totman : Is he going to be selling cars there?
R. Clark: No. He does a lot of work that sells cars.
G. Totman: But he's not going to put cars out there and have people come in - - like a used car lot?
R. Clark: No.
G. Van Slyke: Number of vehicles there at one time, right? I'm trying to help you get everything
written down .
G. Totman : All right. How many vehicles can be outside at any one time that he can live with .
Then we'll negotiate it. Hours of operations -- we've got to set that. Got to have offstreet parking.
M. Carey: Line the vehicles up if they're outside the garage?
G. Totman: We'll have to get with them because we don't know how many we're talking.
C. Tw199: If he gives us a sketch plan, that would show designated parking.
G. Totman: That will be on the Site Plan . I've got that written down, Cecil. Like what I was
thinking of was -- and this young lady has never been involved with a thing like this before. Like we
had one guy come in here and he one or two cars on the outside and he said he couldn't understand
why we wanted to say you could only have two cars or three on the outside, whatever, because they are
customer cars that have been there for weeks or months. He could never convince me if I was his
customer that I could leave my car setting there for two, three months at a time and not have it back. if
that was the case, I'd never take it to the place . It doesn't make sense to say you're going to have a lot of
cars out there because it isn't that you've got to wait for parts. Because if you can't get the part for the
car within a week's time, there's something wrong. Lots of times people like to use that as an excuse
and it really is not a good excuse . Normally, if people need to have a car repaired, they need it for
something and they aren't going to be happy to have it sitting around the yard. So we're going to ask
for a Site plan , how many cars, and things he thinks he can live with . Then we'll negotiate them.
G. Van Slyke : And they've got to be turnkey vehicles, right?
G. Totman: Yes. We're talking about turnkey vehicles. Do you know what I mean by turnkey?
R. Clark: Something that runs .
G. Totman: Right. Well, I appreciate your coming in and filling in for him, but we're going to table
this to the third Thursday in July, July 18th .
M. Carey: I make a motion to table this matter until the July 18th meeting.
G. Van Slyke : I second the motion .
G. Totman: All those in favor? (Alt members present indicated they were in favor.) I want to make it
very clear, and I know it sounds aggravating, but that's why I was trying to get the message through to
her that we were going to be looking at all these things, because it's a mess. And we've got to be very
careful . Like Cecil said, we're wasting our time, but when we're here for the purpose of trying to protect
the neighborhoods, we've got to drive into them - - and when we meet with them we've got to make sure
that we don't make rules for one person and feel sorry for somebody else. Everyone has to have the
same thing. You need to put a sketch plan down, draw a little thing on it, and say your cars are going
to be here , or whatever, and if they don't do it -- we can't let it go on like we have some of the other
ones around . When it comes in it will be my part of my suggestion that they satisfy George as it applies
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
to the junk yard ordinance. Okay, it's now ten minutes of 9 and we're five minutes late for John and
Rosemary Banas.
John & Rosemary Banas - 109 Pleasant Valley Road - TM #36- 1 -2. 3 & 4
M. Carey: You're the greenhouse?
J. Banas: Yes.
G. Totman: Do you all have the paperwork on that? There's no question as to where this is going
to be.
M. Carey. Do you have 3 . 4 acres with this lot?
J. Banas: Yes. Most of it extends back into the woods.
M. Carey. Yes, it looks like it's a long lot.
J. Banas: The highway frontage is about 195 feet I think.
V. Rankin: Whereabouts is this?
J. Banas: 109 Pleasant Valley Road,
V. Rankin: Is that on the hill in Peruville?
J. Banas: Right across the hill coming up from Peruville -- right across from the Daugherty
property.
M. Carey: So you're asking to put up another greenhouse?
J. Banas: Yes, the one we have now is much too small .
M. Carey: Are you going to add onto that, or just expand that?
J. Banas: No, it's going to be a separate greenhouse. We already bought the kit and it's sitting in
the front yard in boxes. It's almost three times as wide and twice as long. It's a regular kit which comes
with a heater included , and all that.
G. Totman: Do you sell the stuff on your property or take it somewhere?
J. Banas: It goes to the Farmer's Market in Ithaca.
G. Totman : You don't have any sales off from your property?
J. Banas: Very few. Maybe five a year -- most of those are for live evergreens around Christmas
time .
G. Totman : Just to spur some questions or something then -- you're asking for approval to expand
upon your greenhouse operation? And the one you've got now you don't have a permit for, right?
J. Banas: Yes. We had a building permit for it.
G. Totman : You had a building permit; you didn't have a business permit like a site plan approval
to operate a greenhouse?
J. Banas: No.
G. Totman: So if you've got a permit and the permit said -- because we don't give building permits
here . The building has to meet the building code and that's through the Zoning Officer. Our purpose is
only to protect the neighborhood, etc. A greenhouse is a little bit different than a repair shop for
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
automobiles. If the Board agrees and gives you a permit, as I see it you would have a permit to operate a
greenhouse . We wouldn't have to worry about having junk cars or anything that around , but what we
would say is that we would request that you have enough offstreet parking to take care of your
potential customers. And you're saying you won't have over two a day.
J. Banas: In the past we haven't. We haven't had more than one or two a day.
G. Totman: What I'm getting at is if we say you're going to have only five at Christmas time and in
the spring of the year you want to sell tomato plants -- I'm just trying to come up with something and
not limit it. You might sell tomato plants, right?
J. Banas: Right. We're planning on putting a driveway in because my wife has to load her truck
and as it is now she has to go up the hill. This way I'm going to have it so there's a driveway going
directly to the front of the greenhouse so she can load directly from the greenhouse to the truck.
M. Carey: Are you thinking of increasing the customer traffic?
J. Banas: It would be nice and it's not a high traffic area.
G. Van Slyke: Okay, I'm looking at the front of the SEQR form here and you say you have
approximately 4,000 square feet of parking space available between the front of the greenhouses and
shoulder of the road .
J. Banas: Right now it's just lawn . And the main use is a 1 -ton van she uses to take her plants
to market.
G. Van Slyke: So that would be just for your own vehicle?
J. Banas: For her own vehicle, but then that area would be available --
G. Van Slyke: in case somebody decides to come in .
J. Banas: Right now it's grass; in the past it was a driveway -- the previous owner had a motor
home parked there.
G. Totmam Is that were Cannon lived?
J. Banas: Yes.
G. Van Slyke: Now I'm looking at the sketch plan here. You mentioned that maybe you sold some
trees. Now out in back you must have like nursery trees.
J. Banas: I've already planted a thousand trees -- half blue spruce , half western white .
G. Van Slyke: These are for re-planting? Or for Christmas trees?
J. Banas: We sell them as live Christmas trees; we also sell them as nursery plantings .
G. Van Slyke : What I'm trying to get at is the type of customer you're going to have if you're going to
have customers come here . Will they be coming for stuff in the greenhouse , or maybe for a tree or two?
I'm just trying to get a feel of. . .
J. Banas: Usually if they're interested in a tree they find out about it at the Farmer's Market and
we usually take a few live trees with us down there . If they want more of a selection, we tell them to
make an appointment and come by the house.
G. Van Slyke: What I'm trying to get a feel of is what kind of traffic you're talking about and what
kind of parking are you going to really need here . If it's just transient -- come in seldom -- you really
don't need a large parking lot.
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 19M
J. Banas: Right now, we just plan on a driveway going to the greenhouse . But the lot here is flat,
it's level, and it's firm, so it's adequate for parking.
G. Totman: Any other questions?
M. Carey: No.
G. Totman : It's your intentions from what I gather, to make an area for customer parking?
J. Banas: If the growth deems it necessary. With a bigger greenhouse I think we'll have a little bit
more exposure, so there might be a little bit more.
G. Totman : I was just reading what you wrote here.
J. Banas: There might be a little bit more traffic than there is now. But 99% of our sales right
now are at the Ithaca Farmer's Market and other plant sales. We do the Ithaca High School plant sale
around Mother's Day.
G. Totman: Let me read this -- did you all get this? (They acknowledged they did.) I just thought
this would save some questions.
J. Banas: We're registered with the NYS Department of Agriculture & Markets for about five years.
C. Twigg: Is there any toxic fumes?
J. Banas: No, we're organic so there are none . Any chemicals we use are recognized as organic.
G. Totman : Do the Planning Board members have any other questions?
P. Palmer: Can I ask a question?
G. Totman: Is it all right if Peggy asks a question?
P. Palmer: What is the zoning on Pleasant Valley Road?
G. Totman : To save time, it's allowed in that area with Site Plan Review according to the book.
Okay then, before we go into the SEQR thing, if the Planning Board has no more questions, what has
to be done if they approve it is to make sure -- and I'll make a suggestion -- that you will provide offstreet
parking for up to five customer cars, and there will be no offensive outside storage of materials -- crates
or things that could blow around the neighborhood -- nothing that will be offensive to the
neighborhood , or something like that. Has anybody else got anything to add or questions to ask before
we do the SEAR? Does everybody agree with the way I just stated the conditions?
M. Carey: Sounds good to me?
G. Totman : George, would you please go through the SEAR? Let me explain this because I don't
know if you were here before. Any action we take requires that we do a Short Form SEAR review.
You're familiar with those I assume?
J. Banas: Yes,
G. Van Slyke : Okay, Ready? This is Part II of the Environmental Assessment Form,
Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part II of the Short Environmental
Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part II. Therefore , it
was determined by the Planning Board, upon a motion made by Monica Carey, seconded by Verl
Rankin, with all members present voting in favor, that the action , based on the information
submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative
declaration.
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 19M
G. Totman: The options are to reject or accept the proposal as presented with these stipulations, or
you accept it as a preliminary approval and hold a public hearing.
G. Van Slyke: I move that we waive the public hearing and approve the Special Permit conditioned
upon ( 1 ) offstreet parking will be provided for five customer vehicles, and (2) that there will be no
offensive outside storage of materials.
M. Carey: I second that.
G. Totman : All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. )
J. Banas: Now what's my next step?
G. Totman: Are you going to put up a sign?
J. Banas: We've got a small sign up there now.
G. Totman : You want to make sure you check with George to make sure the sign is legal and
property because he issues the permits for the signs and he'll issue the building permit. He will issue
the special permit for this with those stipulations on there . Okay. Suzanne?
Suzanne E. Camin - 481 LaFayette Road - TM # 28 - 146 . 2
G. Totman: Suzanne is here to try to get a permit to run a bed and breakfast. Right? I don't think
the Board is familiar with your operation over there . For those of you who don't know where it is, it's
on LaFayette Road . It's the old Brian Lucey's (?) place. And she has rebuilt the old barn into living
quarters and she wants to run a bed and breakfast from there . And that's the application . Do you
want to add something to that?
S. Camin: The entire place has been totally redone , and resided, and we're in the process of
landscaping . The buildings that didn't fall down in the snow will be taken down on Sunday and there
will be one left that is dilapidated and my next door neighbor is going to take wood out of it and then
the contractor will take that one down, and the McLean Fire Department is going to have a burn .
G. Totman: Sunday morning at 6: 30,
S. Camino, Are you looking at the diagram?
G. Totman: Yes,
S. Camino, This is the way that it will look after Sunday and I made the corrections on this. We
took 30 foot of expansion off of that and put 12 feet back on again . And we've got - - there's a building
right in here that's coming down on Sunday. And the road comes in front of this building, This will
come down , but I left it there because it's not down yet. It will come down on Monday or Tuesday and
we'll just remove it. This comes up around -- I did draw the driveway on here -- now right in here where
you see the 27 .3. from there up to where it says 52 . 4 1 have put gravel parking in there for five cars.
There is also gravel parking here for one more car. My garden is right here. It comes up here an before
the garden I have gravel parking here. This is all gravel right in here. There's a double lane right in here,
plus there's gravel on it. They're putting more gravel down here . When the contractor comes back again
he's going to put gravel in here. There's also going to be a turnaround right here.
G. Totman : Where you said that 27 . 3 was you've got five places for cars to park in there, correct?
S. Camino Yes,
G. Totman: Basically, if I understand the Building Code, that's all we would have to worry about is
that you've got parking for five cars because she's only allowed to have four people in there at one time
anyway.
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
S. Camino When I renovated , I went with the new Building and Fire Prevention Code which -- and
you can talk to George about this as he's been in and out of there and approved it, and the electric
inspector from Dryden was in and all of the bedrooms have smoke detectors in them that have been
hard-wired into the electrical system so that when the Underwriters figure out what to do with the new
law that was passed a year ago for bed and breakfasts so you could have five rooms, then all of my
bedrooms will all comply so I won't have a problem . It was all done that way. I can have four and that's
what I have .
G. Totman : It's a long way around it, but that's what I said in the first place .
S. Camino, So when the new law comes in and states you have to have them hard-wired in , mine
are done . And if I add rooms on later on, do I have to come back in? Do you know what I'm talking
about?
G. Totman : Yes, I do. If you get this permit, you will have a permit to operate a bed and breakfast
and, # 1 it will say you have to supply offstreet parking for all your customers. Obviously, nobody's going
to stop at your place if they have to park their car out in the street anyway. If they do, they won't come
back a second time . In order to operate a bed and breakfast, you have to meet the Building Code and
you understand that. If you add more rooms on , you have to go back and get a building permit from
George and he has to agree that whatever you're doing meets whatever the Codes are -- changed or
whatever. It would be my opinion, and I'm only one member of the Planning Board, that if you get
permission to run a bed and breakfast there and it is stipulated that you will meet all NYS Building
Codes, and the offstreet parking requirements, then I wouldn't see where you'd have to come back to get
another permit if you added on .
M. Carey: But on this permit tonight it would just have for four rooms?
G. Totman : It would have to meet the NYS Building Codes for a bed and breakfast.
M. Carey: And right now that's all you can have?
G. Totman : I would rather see it that way because the Code could change and they wouldn't have
to keep running back in here to get new permits every time the Code changes.
M. Carey: Right.
G. Totman : Right now it's just four. I'm sure that if you have four bedrooms - - you could
conceivably have four separate individuals, or you might have three couples stop that are unrelated to
each other and I'm sure the common ordinary person wouldn't turn people away because they've six
people now instead of four -- but my point is -- that as long as we put in the stipulation about
complying with the NYS Building Code, she wouldn't have to come back - - as it relates to bed and
breakfast businesses. Any other questions?
G. Van Slyke: Okay, we're going to do the EAF one more time.
Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part II of the Short Environmental
Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part II. Therefore , it
was determined by the Planning Board, upon a motion made by Verl Rankin , seconded by George
Van Slyke, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information
submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative
declaration.
G. Totman: Does everybody understand where this place is?
G. Van Slyke: Know exactly where it is.
G. Totman: No neighbors across the road. One neighbor on the south side that's not too far away.
On the north side, the neighbor is quite a ways away. So you need to decide if you want to hold a
public hearing. . . .
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
G. Van Slyke: I make the motion that we forego the public hearing and approve the Special Permit
with the provisions that offstreet parking be provided for at least five vehicles, and that at all times this
bed and breakfast will comply with all NYS codes.
M. Carey: I'll second that.
G. Totman: All in favor? (All indicated they were in favor.) Carried .
S. Camino, Thank you , and thank you for staying late .
Sherry O'Brien - 100 Sharpsteen Road - Review MVRS File - TM # 35- 1 -24 , 6
G. Totman: The last thing on our agenda tonight is to review Sherry O'Brien's operation up on
Sharpsteen Road. I think everyone knows Sherry and his wife and they are here tonight. Mr. Senter
invited them and the reason that they are here is that the Code Enforcement Officer has the
responsibility of reporting to the Planning Board or to the people running the businesses whether they
are complying with the rules that were set up or not. And since Sherry O'Brien was in here and we sat
down and made the rules and regulations, according to comments from the citizens of the Town of
Groton and the Code Enforcement Officer, the rules and the stipulations have not been met. George,
and I'm going to pass these around for everybody to see (compilation of photographs of the subject
property) . George has left these pictures here tonight. And the ones on the last pages were taken this
month. So what we've got to do is to come to some kind of an agreement, arrangement either to revoke
the permit, extend it for a period to give time to comply with, or whatever other action the Planning
Board wants to take . I think all the members of the Planning Board went out there this week and
looked just to see how they stand . The last time we worked on this application, Sherry was here and we
met in the other room and -- I'm going by memory now - - Sherry sat down with us and we wrote up and
put on the stipulations on the Special Permit the things that Sherry told us he felt he could agree with .
Since that time , George has had the Town Attorney write letters to Sherry. The reason I'm doing it this
way Sherry is I have to do it for the minutes for what we're doing, and the legalities of it, and George --
at the January meeting of the Planning Board is was brought up. At that time, the Board and George
agreed, as I recall, to send a letter to the O'Briens and ask them to -- give them until July -- or sometime
in June -- June 17th or something like that -- I'm not sure of the exact date -- June 1st -- to get it to
comply with what was agreed upon. According to the pictures that George took when he went out
there, it didn't get any better and it just did not comply. So it's our responsibility now to either revoke
the permit or take some kind of action as to what we can do to alleviate the problem. Do the Board
members want to ask questions now, or would they rather hear from Sherry first?
V. Rankin: Can we hear from Sherry first?
S. O'Brien: The first thing is -- you people made the laws. I did not. You told me what I could do
and what I couldn't do. It's not what's left up to me -- it's left up to you .
G. Totman : When we were here that day, you agreed that you could live with that.
S. O'Brien: I did not agree to nothing. You told me what I was going to do and what I wasn't going
to do.
G. Totman : I can't remember the exact date -- maybe I can find it here.
C. Twigg: Do we have a copy of that permit? I've seen a copy of that permit someplace , George ,
G. Totman: A copy of the permit? It was sent to you .
M. Carey: No it wasn't.
C. Twigg: I think we need that, George . He's not in violation so much in total numbers,
S . O'Brien: What George's biggest gripe is is the cars along the upper driveway which I tried to
explain to him. I work alone . It's harder than hell trying to steer something to push a vehicle with in
that lower driveway up to the garage . For one that don't run, I put it in the upper driveway. That way 1
16
Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
can push it into the garage . I've tried to explain that to him I don't know how many times and he says,
"Well, that's no excuse. They've got to be in the lower driveway. " Which I don' t know how I'm supposed
to get them in the garage by myself.
C. Twigg: Why didn't we address that when you came for the Permit?
S. O'Brien: Nothing was ever said about the upper driveway. Nothing.
C. Twigg: It says you have 14 cars in total -- and that they are to be lined up down there in the
lot which is designated down below. I think probably a car that is up in the driveway, one that you're
working on, isn't what he's complaining about. It's the cars that are there day after day lined up along
the driveway.
S. O'Brien: A lot of them come in, and right now there's two of them sitting there -- there's been a
woman for a month and a half now trying to figure how in hell to come up with enough money to put a
transmission in . The other one just come in. The motor's bad in that. That's why I had that dropped
off there because, like I say, I have no way to push them in and out of the garage. I'm by myself. It's
kind of hard to bring from the lower driveway up the road and push them in the garage by yourself.
G. Totman: Sherry , the minutes of the October 15 , 1992 meeting -- the minutes I was referring to --
in those minutes it said that "Totman : When we leave here tonight, George can say that these are the
figures. Sherry will measure. No more than two junk cars visible from the road. " What they call junk
cars are cars that are not turnkey cars. "No more than 14 cars in an orderly parallel fashion in
designated area. It gives you up to December 6, 1992 . In order for George to accept this, it has to be
done by the first of the year. If it is after the first of the year, and he doesn't get this renewed, then
George will see him cited and he has to go to court for operating without a license . Sherry, when George
gives you this, and you accept it, this is the way it has to be . What I would like is to have George bring
more pictures back so we can see it is cleaned up . " And when I said you agreed, your comment is
"Okay. " I'm reading the minutes of the meeting. You said "okay" you thought at that point you could
live with that. That's the way we assumed it. Because at that point it says "(Sherry O'Brien case
closed)" and we moved on to something else. No matter how I explain this, you're not going to agree
with me , okay, but I've got to explain this anyway. George does what we tell him, I say we -- the Town
Board -- tells him he has to. He's hired to be the Code Enforcement Officer. He's hired to look at these
things. If they don't comply -- in fact, George has been in hot water from the Town Board, the Planning
Board , and the citizens for not making these places comply. Neighbors check and see what the rules
are. They know there's question out there. And when they call and say "Does Sherry O'Brien have a
license for a junk yard?" No, he has a Special permit. "Well, can I see it?" They look at it and they say
"Why are you paying George Senter to be a Code Enforcement Officer when he's not making people
comply with these things here?" It's not just you that this is happening to -- and to try to explain to
other people in the Town of Groton that you're allowing one person to have what looks like and appears
to be a junk yard because he has his own special problems, but yet you don't let somebody else have
one, it's very difficult to do that. And if you don't have a set of rules and you don't follow them, then
the whole Town -- everybody just starts letting everything go. And in defense of George, if he's not -- he
already has not done his job here because this happened back in 1992 and since then he has talked to
you many times, I assume. He's had the attorneys write you letters. But he's kept renewing the Permit,
which he should not have done. And each year -- and you say George is harassing you . George could
lose his job if he hasn't been doing that, or he could lose his job -- and I'm not saying George's job is
threatened , don't get me wrong -- but this is the function of his job . And as long as he's not being
belligerent or coming in there like a storm trooper, it's what he's getting paid to do. Anybody got any
questions?
G. Van Slyke : Yes, I'd just like to -- I don't know, Sherry, if you received this -- no you didn't receive it
-- but if you look at the pictures there, a couple things come to mind. Some of the pictures show a
horse trailer in the parking area.
S. O'Brien: That's mine .
G. Van Slyke : A truck cap just kind of off to the side there . . .
S. O'Brien: That's mine.
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
G. Totman : He's talking about the pictures on the last three pages.
S. O' Brien: That's right. I don't have a right to have a horse trailer? I have stock. We raise our
own meat and that's what I use the trailer for. Where else am I supposed to put it?
G. Van Slyke: What I'm saying is -- is if these things are parked in an area designated for your repair
vehicles, or whatever -- -
S. O'Brien: But I have no other place to put the damn thing, that's the problem. The car trailer. I
don't know why, but that's not in the picture . I have a car trailer, too.
G. Totman: I think what George is getting at is the designated area for the cars that we agreed on at
that time has got other things there than the cars -- and you're putting your cars someplace else and
the horse trailer's there . Anybody can have a horse trailer; I don't think that's the point.
G. Van Slyke: No , I'm not making the point about -- the idea is that this is the designated area where
I saw the trailer parked . It's down in that area, down in this side -- is that correct, where we're looking
at?
S . O'Brien: Yes,
G. Van Slyke: It was over in here someplace, and the truck cap that we've showed pictures of is all
down here in that area which was supposedly the area that you were going to park your repair vehicles.
I guess that's my question.
S . O'Brien: If I had someplace else to park it, I would . The problem is down there, anywheres on
the property, it's so damn wet that there's no parking. If I put it out here in the pasture, there's no way I
could get to it when I need it.
G. Van Slyke: Okay, let me ask this question. Is there any way that some of this could have been -- I
notice here on the Permit it says "cars to be kept in line and in neat orderly fashion as shown on reverse
side. " Is there any way that if you're going to park these things in that area that they would be in an
orderly fashion rather than just wherever they happen to end up?
S. O'Brien: Like I say, the whole problem is down there I haven't had the money and what's got to
be done is I've got to dig a ditch around the place and put drainage in there, because right now, it's wet.
After it just rained today. It's wet down there. So I've got to get some drainage put in around the place
so I can put them in there.
M. Carey: Well , how wet is it up around your garage? Maybe we should designate a place up
around the garage and get them away from the road area so it's not so offensive .
S. O'Brien: That would be in my yard.
M. Carey: Yes, but it might not be so offensive .
S. O'Brien: But the only place I could put them where people couldn't see them would be out
behind the garage .
G. Totman : Well it's not so much where you can't see them, because if you're just going to put them
there and hide them and you've got more than the Ordinance calls for, then you're going to start getting
a permit from the Town Board to run a junk yard . We can't do that. I guess what bothers me, Sherry,
and a lot of other people, is like I told you over the phone today when you asked me why do other people
complain about my property. People pay money for property and they like it kept neat around it and
make their property worth more money. It's not just people that live there, it's people that live in the
Town of Groton who hear their neighbor gets cited for two cars in their driveway and they happen to
maybe go back and forth to work across Sharpsteen Road . And they say how come my neighbor got
cited because he has two junk cars on his property -- maybe his kids had accidents, or whatever --
when you allow a junk yard along Sharpsteen Road . And I've defended it over the years by saying well,
18
Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 dune 1.996
it's not a junk yard. We've allowed him to have ten cars -- and I'll be very honest with you now - -
people laugh at me because they say it's never like that. It always looks like a junk yard . You travel
around a lot more than I do during the day, but I'm sure I'm safe in saying you go to a lot of other places
that repair cards and it doesn't look like a junk yard around there . There's a way to repair cars. We've
given lots of permits in the Town of Groton where it's a one-man operation .
S . O'Brien: How many?
G. Totman : Where they fix cars and it doesn't look like a junk yard around there.
S. O' Brien: How many other places is there one person operating a garage?
G. Totman: None of them have any hired help that I know of. Roods up on 222 .
S. O'Brien: That's because his are hidden out behind the pine trees and you couldn't see them,
right?
G. Totman: There may have been, but I don't know. What I'm trying to tell you is what we're
confronted with as a Board, and you can't explain to other people how you can let one person run a
junk yard without a junk yard license and nobody else. I couldn't go back to the Town Board and
explain that -- because there's a lot of people that come in here -- in fact we did two tonight -- and I
explained to them very explicitly -- and you can read the minutes when they come back -- that these are
the stipulations. In fact, I explained to them that we had a case coming up later in the evening where
we had this problem. And if they had a problem, we were not going to let it go this time, and each year
when it is to be renewed, George will not be allowed to renew the license unless they comply with the
rules. Otherwise, if we don't do that, the Town Board really should say to the Planning Board -- you
know, you're not doing your job -- we'll take over that and we'll do it ourselves, or do something. Can
the other Planning Board members come up with something different? We've got to operate under the
rules of the Town Ordinances . Yes, sir -- would you please state your name,
D. Palmer: Don Palmer. I'm here as a representative of the Town Board tonight. I was asked to
come here because of this very issue coming on the agenda tonight. There's been a lot of
communication to different Board members and I've received a lot of it myself since I was elected last fall
complaining about this issue . And I did take the time to review the folder tonight before this meeting,
and I did find that that existing stipulation goes back a number of years that there's a limit to the
number of vehicles. And there's also a stipulation that they must be turnkey/ operating vehicles I
believe . And the complaints that I'm getting is that the compliance has not been there over a number of
years and the permit has been renewed each year.
G. Totman : What I was saying, Sherry, is like you were saying that George didn't understand about
the upper driveway and this thing and that. What George is getting battered with is what Don is
saying. Because George goes to all of the Town Board meetings. People complain to the Town Board
and they are going back and saying to George "why did you renew his license last year because he's not
complying?" So in all fairness to George, he is getting battered because he didn't do a job , and rightfully
so -- and you're battering him because he is doing his job. I just wanted to make sure you understood
where George is coming from.
C. Twigg: Why did this come before us? Why are we discussing this now? If Sherry's not in
compliance , it's not up to us to get him in compliance . We set up the program for him to go by and
apparently he agreed to do, according to the minutes, what is on this Permit. And he has not done it
apparently. And if we're not an enforcing body, why are we discussing this problem?
V. Rankin: That's up to the Code Enforcement Officer,
C. Twigg: It's up to the Code Enforcement Officer to straighten things out with him. And if the
Code Enforcement Officer can't do it -- I mean, I don't know why we're discussing it. We can't do
anything about it anyway. The Code Enforcement Officer must have steps to take if he's not satisfied
with Sherry's operation up there . Now he must have means to bring it into compliance or take his
permit away from him. We can't do that. I mean that' s up to somebody besides us to do this. I think
we're wasting our time.
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Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
M. Carey: Can we just deny the permit?
V. Rankin: We can't deny it.
Co Twigg: I mean we're wasting our time discussing the thing.
G. Totman: I can't disagree with what you're saying, okay?
V. Rankin: We set up the rules for Sherry and then that's the end of it for us .
G. Totman: It's just like anything in the Zoning Ordinance or the Building Code. Now if Mr. O'Brien
wanted to put an addition on his barn and he doesn't comply with the Codes, then it's up to George to
deny the use of it or not give a CO, or put a Stop Work Order on it, or whatever. And George has the
same responsibility for these things. What George did, if you will remember, is send Mr. O'Brien a letter
in January. And in the letter he stated that due to the weather, he conceded to the fact that he
couldn't clean up all the stuff that was there because of the weather. So he gave him until June 1st to
comply.
S. O'Brien: When I talked to him the other day he said it all had to be cleaned up before I come to
this meeting.
G. Totman : I'm talking about the letter he sent you in January . Well, I'll read it --
S. O'Brien: Oh, I agree, I ---
G. Totman: Okay. Anyway, so he says -- and George says, "I will extend you the courtesy of
bringing your business into conformance by June 1st, 1996 . No excuses will be acceptable . If you don't
meet the requirements agreed upon within this time frame, it is my obligation per the Town of Groton
Land Use Ordinance 442, Part 442 .4, to revoke your permit. If you have any questions, I can be reached
at. . . " this number here . So George brought that up to the Planning Board. So he did tell you that he
will revoke your permit if you don't do that. And, Cecil, you're right. But what George did is brought it
up to the Planning Board, and the Planning Board agreed with George, because he asked us to, to meet
with him at this meeting to see how he's making out with the Sherry O'Brien operation. And that's
what we're doing. The only thing is, George went on vacation. But I was trying to keep this peaceful
and amenable up to the point of saying something has to be done. Now up until last year, I should say
April of '95, there was some feeling that the Ordinance itself as it pertained to the Code Enforcement
Officer on how he could handle cases like this -- whether they would have to go to the Board of Appeals,
or to the Court, or whatever. And by an action of the Town Board last April, that was changed so that
if the Code Enforcement Officer could not get people to comply, then he could take them directly to the
Court, which is what he's supposed to do. But it was George's feeling that we ought to talk about it
and maybe by that time you'd have it all cleaned up, whatever, and maybe something could happen.
But then when George went back and took pictures the 3rd of June after his deadline, you saw what he
found. And so he asked us to review it. We -- to be very honest with you, when you called me today
and I don't know if I sounded a little surprised when you asked about the meeting -- we were going to
discuss it and we didn't tell Carol to send you a notice . We didn't ask her not to -- it's a public meeting.
But we were just going to discuss it, assuming at that time that George would be here . Because there's
nothing really we can do about it. But we're doing what we agreed to do in January. That's why we're
doing it.
S . O' Brien: But can we change it so I can use the upper driveway?
M. Carey: And if you use the upper driveway, then you won't have any junk ---
S. O'Brien: Well, I 'll still have to use the lower part too.
M. Carey: Then all it will accomplish is it will look like more junk cars right?
S. O'Brien: What it'll accomplish is I'll have a way to get them in and out of the garage by myself. I
work alone . Like I say, it's hard to move a car from the lower driveway into the garage by yourself.
20
Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
M. Carey: So what's going to be down in the lower driveway?
S. O'Brien: Well a lot of times if you take and pull a motor out of a car, it's easy to push it out of
the garage and let it set alongside the driveway until you get the motor done . Then we push it back in.
And the ones down in the lower driveway are ones that I haven't got to yet, or like I got one up there
now that I don't know what to do with . I have another one up there that there's a $2200 bill against
and I'm getting $25 a week -- maybe.
G. Totman : Excuse me, Sherry. Two or three times this young lady (Mrs. O'Brien) has put her hand
up.
Mrs. O'Brien: I just wanted to say you said something about this meeting. We weren't notified
through the mail , George came up to the house and gave the letter to me. Sherry was not home at the
time and he said that all of you would like us to be at the meeting. That's why we are here and we even
know anything about it.
G. Totman: Well there's nothing wrong with it. It's just that the point was that -- Cecil brought up
the point and he was right. Once these rules are made, see, and George has cited, and it's been through
the attorneys, like it's in the legal hands now rather than ours, and he wanted to bring us up to date.
Because when we talked about it in January, and you probably saw a copy of that letter, at that time he
thought probably, and I'm not trying to read his mind, it was either going to be solved then or --
Actually, in order to change anything we've got now -- and the Town has a rule about so many junk
cars around too -- we can circumvent that a little bit by doing what we did for . . . . . . In fact the rule that
we gave him is more cars than we've ever allowed for anybody else. We've never allowed that many cars
for anybody else. And the problem is, in all sincerity now, is that because over the years we've always
had the same problem with the same property. And it goes back and forth and he's going to clean it up
and he's going to do it by this time, and six months later it's back to the same thing again, and people
all around are saying-- Just for an example, people are giving the Judge the devil because they're not
doing something about it. And the Judge says, "I can't do anything about it. Nobody's bringing
anything to me . " I've literally heard that myself. I've been to meetings where there are people jumping.
They want to know "What are you going to do about that junk yard up there?" And many of these
people that are saying this don't even know your name or who it is. But they know that the rules and
regulations in the Town of Groton are not being complied with . And they are saying, "Why are you
paying Mr. Senter? He's not doing nothing. " We're constantly getting that. So this meeting tonight
was, and I didn't say you shouldn't be here because I think it's good that people come to our meetings,
but I didn't want to give the wrong impression by inviting and think that we could do something tonight
about it. Our purpose tonight was to discuss it and we thought we were going to discuss it with
George . And then go back to the Town Board and Town Attorney and, I guess, whatever. I'm not sure,
because up to this point now, the paperwork has been submitted to you and it's been on record , and it's
been turned over to the Town Attorney that the Code Officer issued a notice and they didn't want to
comply to it.
S. O'Brien: The lawyer you people have ---
G. Totman : Sherry, I don't hire the lawyer.
S. O'Brien: Like I called him and I said I've got cars up here I've got no paperwork on, they belong to
people . I'm glad to get rid of them. But who's going to give me the okay to get rid of them if these people
come after them within five months, or two months, or two days after I get rid of them?
G. Totman : Seriously. Other people handle those problems. How do other people handle those
problems?
S. O' Brien: You tell me .
G. Totman : I mean, I'm not being smart.
S. O'Brien: I would like to know.
21
Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
G. Totman : Well you've been around where they fix cars and stuff and you don' t see what you've
got there. I do this for a living the same as George in the Town of Lansing and I have the same things.
But I don't have that same problem. It used to be the cars that were junk junk you couldn't get rid of
them and nobody wanted them and nobody would give you anything for them. Now we've got people
who will come and take them away free . I guess my suggestion would be for you to do your damnedest
to comply with what you've got, and if you could show that you could comply with that and then you
come in after some new guidelines, but the problem is is granting you more room now when the records
show that -- and I'm talking about the overall picture now, not what I've done or anything like that --
but the records show that this property was given a Special Permit and certain rules were put in and
they haven't been complied with from day one. And the attorneys have been involved, and the Town
has to pay those , if the Planning Board would arbitrarily say okay, we're going to give you more places to
put more junk cars, I believe you would probably come up with a new Planning Board .
S. O'Brien: How do you figure these are junk cars? They are there to be worked on . How do you
figure they're junk cars? If they were junk cars, they wouldn't be there, right?
G. Totman: I can't answer that question. I don't know.
M. Carey: Well, if we drove up there and each one of us got in one of those cars, could we drive it
away?
S. O' Brien: Then why would they be there if we could drive they away?
G. Totman : I'll tell you what. If I took my car up there for you to fix it and it was going to set out
there for two or three weeks and the weeds grew up around it, I wouldn't take it back.
S. O'Brien: But there's one thing, George. You got money and a lot of people ----
G. Totman: No, no -- I don' t mean that.
S. O'Brien: A lot of the people I work with do not have money.
G. Totman : I think it's the reverse . The people that don't have money need that car to drive back
and forth to work with ; they can't afford to go out and buy another one.
S. O'Brien: There's one setting up there right now that's been there for a month and a half and the
woman can't come up with $250 for the work.
G. Totman : Besides that, I don't have money.
S . O'Brien: So what do you do? You tell these people to come and get your damn car?
Male Voice : Some garages do that.
G. Totman : I'll tell you what. You made me think if something, Sherry. I had a complaint here a
year or so ago about a couple , three cars in a yard. So I couldn't get ahold of the person and I had to
send them a registered letter because nobody would come to the door. So finally I got to talk to the guy
that lived there and he was renting the place . But the owner put me up to it. The guy was renting the
place and I finally got to talk to him about these cars out there because people were coming to me and
I'm getting paid to take care of this job, and he said to me -- well, they're not my cars, And I said, but
the owner is going to make you move if you don't comply with the rules and regulations, because we're
citing the owner, we're not citing you . He said well those are my friends' cars and they live in Ithaca and
they're not allowed to have cars in their yard in Ithaca. Maybe you should talk with the Town Board. I
don't know. The point is right now I think what you really got to understand is before you can ask for
something more, you've got to show or make an effort to show that you're trying to comply with what
you agreed to four years ago. And over those four years you've been cited practically every year for not
complying with that. An attorney gets paid for doing his job and he only gets involved when the
problem is turned over to him from the Code Enforcement Officer.
S. O'Brien: I called him. I've talked to him on the phone .
22
Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
G. Totman: Because you got cited, you mean?
S. O' Brien: Because I had these cars up there and I asked George "What do you want me to do with
them, George?"
G. Totman: George's only answer would have been get rid of them.
S. O'Brien: No. George said I don't know. I'm not telling you you can get rid of them, but I'm telling
you you've got to get rid of them.
G. Totman : Oh, okay.
S. O'Brien: But, I'm telling you not to get rid of them. So when I talked to the lawyer, the lawyer
says "Don't worry about it -- we'll fix the permit. You keep them. We don't want the responsibility of
you getting rid of them on our shoulders. "
G. Totman : The lawyer told you that?
S. O'Brien: The lawyer told me that.
C. Twigg: That puts a new twist to it, George .
M. Carey: Well, Mr. Palmer, our Town representative?
G. Totman : Now, Sherry, we're taping this meeting and that will go in the minutes. So I want to
make sure you know that.
S. O'Brien: Well what he told me - - he says we don't want - - because I told him. I says what I'll do
is you got to sign a piece of paper when you get rid of these cars with no title and take them to the scrap
yard , is that right?
G. Totman: Yes,
S. O'Brien: I said I'll just put Town of Groton and your name on it. And he says oh no , you can't
do that.
G. Totman : That's right. He's right on that.
S. O'Brien: So he says if you have these and you can't get rid of them and you can't get ahold of
the people , he says if that's the only problem we have , we'll make sure you----
G. Totman: Now you probably know this better than I, but if you got a car you want to get rid of,
and it's got no plates on it and you don't know who the owner is, and it's not worth over $750, you can
put a tag on it and say this car's going to be destroyed in 48 hours . And as long as you got proof that
you did that, you don't need nothing from nobody. Is that correct?
S. O'Brien: I don't think so.
G. Totman: I can show you a paper where it says it is.
S . O'Brien: I don't think it is.
G. Totman : I've got --
S. O'Brien: See , the whole problem is --
G. Totman: The reason I'm saying that is - - about three or four years ago I sent away to -- I had
somebody send it for me to Albany to find that problem out because at that particular time we had some
cars that were parked in back of the old post office over in McLean . The tenants had moved out and left
them there and we were citing the owner for the cars being there. And he was saying what can I do with
23
Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
them? These were junk cars and that's why we got this information. And that's the way it was. Now if
it's worth more than $750 -- and I can't remember exactly if its more than that -- $750 or $ 1000 --
there's something more you have to do, but you can do it. Really, it's legal to do it if you do it through
the proper channels.
S. O'Brien: What I was told is - - because I talked to the sheriff. He told me to give him the VIN
numbers and what they can do is run them through and tell you who they were licensed to. But the
problem is, the only state that keeps them for over 10 years is Arizona. Everybody else keeps them in the
computer for five years. So if that car was not registered in a period of five years, there is no record
whatsoever.
C. Twigg: So after it runs through the crusher ----
G. Totman: Well , before it can get to the crusher, unless it's completely junk, the crusher's won't
take it without the paperwork. But, under a certain age they don't have to have the paperwork, I can
tell you, because are you familiar with Andy Krebs?
S. O'Brien; Yes. If it had a title , it don't matter if the guy has paperwork.
G. Totman : Are you familiar with Andy Krebs' junk yard? The one he had, not the one he's got
now. Because I got a crusher to come and take care of his cars. And they didn't need any paperwork --
they just went in and did it.
S. O'Brien: In my understanding of New York laws, anything that has title ----
G. Totman: And because of the fact that they were junk.
S . O'Brien: It don't matter.
G. Totman: Well , anyway -- that's not -- we can talk all night about that. I just want you to
understand where our job starts and stops. When somebody applies for something, it's our job to meet
with them. If a person, when they meet with us, agrees -- and you said you didn't agree, but the
minutes said you said "okay" -- but nevertheless it's a moot point, when you applied for that permit
after you leave us, you are literally saying to us, and if it gets to be a legal thing afterwards, that you
agree to this, or you wouldn't start the operation . And the problem that you've got is that from day one
you haven't complied with it. So if you go to the Court, or if we try to get something changed for you ,
we're going to have a problem because we can't prove that you've shown an effort to comply with what
you agreed to. I don't know how much more clear I can make it. I really don't want to cut you off, but
unless you've got something more you want to add to the minutes, I don't want to cut you off anymore,
but that was the purpose of what we're doing tonight -- to review what George has done and make our
report back to the Town Board. From there, I had forgotten that, but that's why Don was here. It must
have been brought up to the Town Board and they knew about the meeting and they knew about
George's letter because he makes a monthly report to the Town Board of all the activities he does. It's
like I told you this noon, people are calling in .
S. O'Brien: How come my neighbors don't have to clean up around their places?
G. Totman : Well, I'm not familiar with your neighbors so I really don't know. But they don't run a
business and we - --
S . O'Brien: Big deal. So I --
G. Totman : Do they have more than three junk cars in their yard? I'm serious. You're exactly right.
S. O'Brien: It's not up to me to come down here and criticize everybody ---
G. Totman: Well, we'll look into it. Because if somebody is -- you're right. You shouldn't have to
comply with any more laws than anybody else . If you got neighbors that have more than two junk cars,
we'll get with George and make George do something about it.
24
Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
S. O'Brien: Well, it's not exactly my neighbors, but there is people around me --
G. Totman: Well, if we know of somebody that's not complying with the law - -
M. Carey: All you have to do is make an anonymous phone call in. That's how they find out
about most of them.
S . O'Brien: Just like this character who set right here tonight. He has lived down there where he
lives for six years, and there's a van setting down there next to the road that's full of garbage and it's
been setting there ever since he lived there .
G. Totman : You mean the greenhouse guy?
S. O'Brien: Yes. Now has anybody said anything about that?
G. Totman : I don't know. Does it show?
S . O'Brien: Sure it shows -- I mean I need glasses and I can see that.
G. Totman: A van full of garbage . Well , and I'm not getting smart now, but it doesn't say in the
Ordinance that you can't have -- - because if it's full of junk or garbage, it's a Health Department
problem. I don't think anybody should be dealt with differently. My name is Totman and yours is
O'Brien and there should be no difference .
S . O'Brien: Well there is.
G. Totman: But, see, I don't quite agree with you . Because like I said earlier, there's lots of places
around that do what you do that don't have all that junk around .
S. O'Brien: But you take a look at a lot of the places that do what I do and they've got places to
hide these vehicles. (To Peggy Palmer) Why are you shaking your head no, Peg?
P. Palmer: I know a couple of them that don't have . . .vehicles.
S. O'Brien: Like who?
(Dialog became a conversation between the parties and was not audible to the recording secretary .)
G. Totman: The only thing I can tell you, Sherry, and the hour's getting late . Let me give you a
reason why I spent so much time as I did. First of all, the minutes of January show that we asked for
this meeting.
M. Carey: Yes, I know. I remember that.
G. Totman : Okay. So that's why we're doing this is because we asked for it. The minutes of
January said we will meet with George and we will meet with them. I had forgotten about it until I just
read it tonight, because I gave George hell for inviting them .
M. Carey: But he should have taken his vacation at another time .
G. Totman : Okay. I understand that. But, very honestly, what I wanted to do tonight was, I
wanted the Town Board and the attorneys, or whoever, to be able to read the minutes to show that we
were patient and that we extended everything we could to these people. And I thought that was what I
was trying to do . I really believe that this case has gone on so long and it's not just the immediate
neighbors that are talking about it, it's everybody in Town . So in all fairness to everybody, I think that
we would be very wrong to try to make any concessions in dealing with them because what we've got to
look for is what's going to happen in the future. Not as what's happened in the past.
D. Palmer: That's right.
25
Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 1996
G. Totman: What's happened in the past is that the rules and regulations were made , and when he
walked out of here that night he said okay. He came and paid his money and that means he's saying
okay, I can live with that. From day one he did not live with that. I understand he works and makes a
living doing what he's doing, I guess he does.
G. Van Slyke: How does he make a living if he can't get them to come get them?
G. Totman : I also don't believe that he wanted to understand me when I told that if you were fining
my car, I'm going to take my car to a garage that looks nice and neat a lot quicker than I will take my car
to a place where there's junk all over the place .
D. Palmer: I think the file speaks for itself, George .
C. Twigg: All we've got to do is like it says, we give you 'til the first of June and the thing has not
changed a doggone bit. He told them what was going to happen if it wasn't changed. Let's do it.
Other Business
G. Totman : Monica's got something she wants to bring up .
M. Carey. I'm on this Planning Federation --
G. Totman: Everybody got a thing in the mail about it.
M. Carey: And we're sponsoring this program that's Tuesday night. It's on designing the
community and site development and stuff, and I really think it would be quite interesting for the
Planning Board members to go. So who wants to go?
G. Totman : It's in Ithaca - Holiday Inn . It's put on by the NY Planning Federation and the
Tompkins County Planning Federation. And it's a down-to-earth program . I think it's a good program.
I'm not going to be there, but I think it's a good program.
C. Twigg: Do you good .
G. Totman : Because it's being put on by Dave Church and he is the Executive Director oi' the
Planning Federation. Different that most directors of big organizations like that, he is also a chairman
of a local town Planning Board in the Town of Wallkill, NY. So he understands the local planning as
well as the planning up here . And they're going to put on how it affects local small communities, and
they're going to use a subdivision to make reference to that's from a town in Tompkins County . So it's
not going to be something from far away.
C. Twigg: You mean it's not going to be from Putnam County?
G. Totman : No, its going to be from the Town of Lansing. I sat down with her Tuesday and went
all over it with her and they are going to use the Cayuga Highlands development.
M. Carey: I think all our Board members ought to go.
G. Totman: Sheldon Clark volunteered to go .
S. Clark: No.
G. Totman : You can't?
M. Carey: I think we really got to get more people on this Board interested in doing things. It's
between George and I anymore that only attend meetings. And this is just ridiculous. I mean, I'm so
booked up at home on the farm anymore that I don't have a damn day to myself anymore and I try to
attend these meetings, and I don't think it's right that nobody else on this Board will go to meetings.
C. Twigg: Now, Monica.
26
Groton Town Planning Board Public Hearing & Meeting 20 June 19H
M. Carey: Hey -- do you go to many meetings?
C. Twigg: Yes.
M. Carey: Only after I bug you a million times to go.
C. Twigg: I went to New York and went to a meeting with George and whatchacallit last week.
M. Carey: _ But I feel that we got other Board members here that need to be doing meetings also.
C. Twigg: Namely, George (referring to G . Van Slyke) .
M. Carey: Yes, you're retired, man. You got plenty of time.
G. Van Slyke: I don't have time --
G. Totman: There is some good points to what Monica's saying. There's a lot you can learn from
what other people are doing and how they're doing it. And many times my criticism is of Town Board
members. They get elected to the Town Board and they sit there and make decisions, the majority of
them, and never know what they're talking about except their own personal opinions. And I'm not
pointing fingers at anybody, but I feel people like that shouldn't even be on those Boards because there's
so much to learn . Like when you went to New York, you learned a lot of stuff. Life don't settle around
one community. Okay . Now that that's all over, at 10:31 I adjourn the meeting.
J. Fitch: You need a motion to adjourn.
P. Palmer: You don't need a motion to adjourn.
J. Fitch: Yes, you do.
P. Palmer: Not according to Robert's Rules of Order.
J. Fitch: Not according to my Robert's Rules.
G. Totman: You're not running this meeting. I had a secretary once like you and I got rid of her.
Now she's setting in the audience.
P. Palmer: And not earning any money.
27
Groton Town Planning Board Public. Bearing & Meeting 20 June 19M
The meeting ended at 10: 32 p.m. with no motion made .
Respectfully submitted ,
Joe
Voan . Fitch
Recording Secretary
Note : Copied below is the applicable portion of Page 24 of "21st Century Robert's Rules of Order,"
edited by The Princeton language Inst.1h.d.e. produced by The Philip Lief Groi.ip, Inc . : Laurel Books, Dell
Publishing Div. of Bantam Books, November 1995 .
24 ' 21 ST CENTURY ROBERTS RULES OF ORDER
HOW TO MAKE A MOTION
First study the correct way to phrase different types of motions .
Motion What to Say Second? Debate?Amend ? Vote 7
Adjourn "I move that we Yes No No Majority
adjourn . "
28