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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1996-01-18 TOWN OF GROTON PIANNING BOARD Thursday, 18 January 1996 Board Members (*present) Others Present *George Totman, Chairman Joan E . Fitch , Recording Secretary *Monica Carey Robert Walpole *Sheldon Clark Bill & Judy Booth *Jeff Lewis Verl Rankin *George VanSlyke *Cecil Twigg The meeting was called to order at 8 * 30 p.m. by George Totman, Chairperson, G. Totman We will dispense with approval of the minutes until later. The first one on the agenda is Robert Walpole who is here with Bill & Judy Booth. Do any of the Board members have any questions? (There were none.) Bob? R. Walpole: The Booths are looking to lease this property (TM #20- 1 -35, Jeffrey & Elizabeth Trescot, RO) with an option to buy. They are considering a diner, and the property is zoned properly. They have been working with George Senter with regard to zoning compliance and the Building Code, and the Tompkins County from a Health Department standpoint. Underneath a convenience store, which is also allowed in that zone, there's nowheres near the compliance to comply with the Building Code or with the Health Department in setting up a convenience operation. So we're open for your questions and we'll try to answer them. M. Carey: On the back side of that building is a repair shop . Are you going to change that into part of the restaurant? B. Booth: We plan to start small up and front and expand back. M. Carey: What about alcohol? Are you going to have that there? B. Booth: No . Well, in a convenience I don't know. M. Carey: But as a restaurant you won't? B. Booth: No . C. Twigg: No on-premises consumption of alcohol? B. Booth: Yes, that's right. G. Totman Let me get this straight. You want to apply up front for being a sit-down restaurant type operation? R. Walpole: Diner type , right. G. Totman The reason I'm questioning it is that we have to hold a public hearing. And we can't hold a public hearing for one thing and then give a permit for something else. R. Walpole: Well , let me back up. I think we're here to discuss the diner. But I think as long as we're here , based on what information we have today -- prior to before the application went in we have a lot more information in reference to rules and regulations that the Town is requiring plus the Tompkins County Health Department's requiring. As long as we are in here, before we went to a public hearing, we could either go into the public hearing as a diner, or we would amend the application and then go for the public hearing. Whatever it is, the paperwork will be correct before it's advertised as a 1 f Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 January 1996 public hearing. But basically, we're here to discuss the options back and forth . The Health Department will not act until they have some type of commitment from the Site Plan Review so we're at a standstill point knowing which direction we can finalize - - a lot of the stuff is still on hold. Tonight, I may move to ask for an adjournment until we can get back with John Andersson and George. George called me tonight and said he could not be here . Basically, we want a feel from the Planning Board -- what are their concerns so we could address them. I think a lot of it depends on -- what are we talking about -- $25,000 to meet the specifications for the diner? Prior to a public hearing, obviously, we would have that straightened out. Or do they make the option on the building? But we're at a standstill; Andersson will not move until we have been here before the Planning Board. Does that answer your question George? S. Clark: The reason for that is he wants to see if we turned it down flat? R. Walpole: That's right. M. Carey: It's allowed in that M2 zone which is the new zone up through that area -- either a convenient or a restaurant. J. Lewis: Where would your parking be? Be Booth: On the side -- probably wider than it is now. J. Lewis: Where would the entrance for your driveway be? Same as it is now? Enter from Salt Road or 222? Be Booth: Yes. C. Twigg: Well, actually, we can't turn him down . The only thing we can do is make adjustments on the driveway or parking spaces or something of that sort. G. Totman If I'm reading what you're saying correctly, or close thereabouts, in order to -- their first preference is having a restaurant. An in order to get the Health Department to talk with them or spend their time on it, they need some kind of a commitment from the Planning Board saying that if the rules and regulations are met, the Planning Board will approve that type of situation . So going back in the precedent we have set in the past, and on that corner, at one time this Planning Board approved a bar/restaurant on that corner. The zoning has changed a little bit, but it's still allowable on that corner. We are now not talking about on-premises consumption of alcohol which we were then ; that's what made everybody so unhappy then. I don't know how many of you were here that night that we had that public hearing, but we had a huge turnout of over 100 people. And we passed it. It never happened because they couldn't get a lot of the other things they wanted done because it does cost money to meet their rules and regulations. And they couldn't get the banks to go along with them, so they wound up then having -- I don't even think you could call it a convenience store -- but it was sort of a farmer's market type thing. If the applicants meet the criteria that is set forth -- like with the parking and the curb cuts and signs that are specified in the ordinance and in what you would normally do with a Site Plan Review, there is, as far as I know, no legal way we can turn it down. And I would be glad to draft a letter like that to John Andersson -- if that's what you're looking for. Before we go any farther, though, let me ask the Planning Board if that would be their consensus . C. Twigg: That's what I would do. M. Carey: Mine , too. G. Totman I don't know what else we could do, Bob. R. Walpole: Well, I don't either. But the other option in reference to the diner is if we had to amend the application to the convenience store mode, is basically the Planning Board criteria the same -- the signs, the parking. . . . 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 January 1996 G. Totman Basically they would be the same. As far as a restaurant is concerned, what we would require is nothing compared to what the Health Department requires. Ours is just sort of basic , but you can't hold a public hearing for a restaurant and then approve a convenience store . R. Walpole: I fully understand that. G. Totman So what I guess I was trying to get at is we're talking about -- I don't know what their time schedule is, but we're talking about 30 days . We're saying okay, we agree to all this tonight, so you come back in February and tell us what you want to do. Then we'll hold a public hearing; that will take it into March again, so what timetable you're looking at I don't know. Be Booth: We're looking at March 1st. G. Totman March 1st for what? Be Booth: For opening. G. Totman For opening? Let me put it this way -- Me Carey: Because we'd have to hold a public hearing and we have to have time to post that in the paper and -- Be Booth: Whatever timetable it takes. G. Totman You see, once we decide, or you decide, what you want to go for, then we've got to agree to hold a public hearing. It takes about two weeks to advertise a public hearing. So if we're going to hold a public hearing in February, the third Thursday in February, we've got to know at least two weeks before that to do that. And that's what I'm trying to get at -- this 30-day bit I was talking about. We meet every thirty days, once a month . I suppose we could have an adjourned meeting tonight and pick it up at another meeting -- come back in a couple weeks, whatever, when you've got some more of your homework done so you know what John Andersson9s going to be saying or doing . Be Booth: Well, we know most of that. We're going to put in a new septic system for the restaurant. We just need time. Time and weather. S. Clark: Would you be putting in fuel tanks to sell gas? Be Booth: No. G. Totman And you're going to have to buy coolers and freezers and all sorts of. . . . Be Booth: I think we should just go for the convenience store to get a cash flow and then go on to the restaurant. We wanted to make sure that we could do the restaurant before we went small and then enlarge. So you could hold a public meeting for the convenience store. G. Totman Then once you got going on that and you see that you thought you could pay your bills and make a living at that, then you'd come back to us to go for the second public hearing later on, six months or whatever. . . . . Okay, that's a little bit different. Okay. Does anybody have any questions? Be Booth: The restaurant's going to need a complete new sewer system and I'll need time to put that in. Time and weather. S. Clark: Will you be going for fuel -- putting in field tanks? Be Booth: I doubt it. It would be nice up there, but I don't think it would go. Especially with a restaurant going in you couldn't have it. For a convenience store it would be nice -- for cash flow. G. Van Slyke: The one in McLean -- is that the kind of convenience store you're looking at where you might sell sandwiches or . . . . . 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 January 1996 Be Booth: Yes. Cold sandwiches and stuff like that. . . G. Totman Deli-like. Be Booth: It depends on what the Health Department allows. G. Van Slyke: Like the one in McLean . G. Totman Then you have the staples like bread and milk. Be Booth: It would be pretty much like the Red Apple is right here. G. Van Slyke: Without the gas. Be Booth: Without the gas . G. Totman There is going to be another convenience store going into McLean which is not that far from there . M. Carey: Where -- on the Dryden side? Did they get that land? R. Walpole: They bought that house from the lady from what I understand. G. Totman So that would mean we would have a public hearing on the 15th for a convenience store. M. Carey: The 15th is the third week in February? Oh , no. G. Totman Basically, things that the Planning Board looks at are ( 1 ) you're on a corner so that if there's outside lights they can't be shining into the road -- just common sense -- but we have to have a record that we went through that gyration. And of course if you want to have a sign, you have to go through the Zoning Officer, but we just want to make sure people know you have to get a permit for a sign . The other thing is lots of times people want to know where your main entrance is going to be . Is it going to be off of Salt Road , or would it be off of -- you've got a corner right there -- and would it be off of, onto Route 222? C. Twigg: That's your high traffic, 222 . G. Totman Questions? M. Carey: Might as well go with the public hearing. G. Totman Let's do the SEAR, George , please . I see you're all ready for it. Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part H of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part II. Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon a motion made by Monica Carey, seconded by Jeff Lewis , with all members present voting in favor, that the action , based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration. J. Lewis: Are you going to sell pizzas up there, too? Be Booth: If the Health Department will allow us to . G. Totman Do you want to put convenience mart in there and initial it? Have you ever done this before? Be Booth: She has -- my wife has. 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 January 1996 G. Totman The only reason I ask is that I remember the lady who wanted to do it originally -- the restaurant and bar -- she was very adamant about it and she's never done anything like that before in her life and obviously it never materialized for her because she couldn't do all the things that needed to be done . But you couldn't convince her ahead of time . J. Booth: There's a lot. B. Booth: I've done septic system work and construction all my life , so I talked to George about it. I could do it myself and save us a little bit of money. In fact, over 50%. J. Booth: I owned a restaurant before. G. Totman Oh you did. So we will hold a public hearing and we will notify all adjoining landowners by mail. And when we hold the public hearing it will be out in the court room. Then after the public hearing, either that night or at another meeting, we will sit down and go over the details . Normally, at a public hearing, because of the fact it's an allowed use in the area and a lot of people don't agree with me when I tell them up front that just because you don't want something and you come out 100 strong and go against it, it doesn't mean that you have to turn it down. Because if it's in an allowed area, you have to come up with solid reasons -- like it's environmental or damages the neighborhood or whatever. Hearing all that, then the Planning Board sits down and, if they agree then to accept it, then we'll have to sit down and go over it in detail and put it in writing so there's a detailed thing of where do you plan on having your cars parked? What kind of aesthetics are you going to have out front - - lawn or bushes? Where's the parking going to be? Then we'll have a record of it because it's a Special Permit and every year the Zoning Officer, George Senter, has to inspect it to see that it meets these requirements. So we have to know up front and then we come to an agreement with you as to what we expect and if you can live with it -- we're not normally that bad -- then once we put something down on paper and say this is what it is and this is what your Special Permit is for, then George has the obligation to make sure you don't have a bunch of junk cars sitting around out there , or your grass is growing up, or whatever, so that it's good for the neighborhood. Obviously, if you're going to run a business and you want to have people coming in , it only makes sense that you keep it that way. B. Booth: Exactly, G. Totman Anybody else got anything else? (No response from Board members.) Bob, are you satisfied? Okay. That public hearing will be at 8 o'clock that night. Normally what happens at a public hearing is you open the public hearing up . You read the announcement that was in the paper, and they'll ask the applicant to explain to the public what they plan on doing, so you want to be prepared for that. They'll be asking questions and the opening statement will be you people saying that you plan on doing this and this, and we're not planning on having alcohol , whatever. Normally at something like that, my suggestion would be don't go into a lot of lengthy details on stuff, only just say what you plan on doing and leave the rest up to questions and answers, because sometimes the more you say the more they pick it apart. J. Lewis: Well, they may have to put alcohol in there if it's a convenience store . They may sell beer. G. Totman Yes, but it's not on-premises. For example, the one that they're going to put in McLean is right across the road from the school and they're getting their license for beer. But it's the package. A lot of people say you can't do that, but as long as it's not consumed there. So that's it I guess. J. Booth: Thank you very much . G. Totman Make a note in the minutes that we have received a copy of a letter to Sherry O'Brien, dated 11 January 1996, from Code Enforcement Officer Senter regarding his MVRS Special Permit, which reads as follows: Dear Sherry: I am enclosing the renewal of your Special Permit for 1996. I do understand that the weather - snow, ice, etc . , is a hindrance to your abiding by the stipulation you 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 January 1996 agreed to with the Groton Planning Board; but this has been an ongoing problem for many years. I will extend you the courtesy of bringing your MVRS into conformance by June 1 , 1996. No excuses will be acceptable . If you don't meet the requirements agreed upon in this time frame it is my obligation , per Town of Groton Land Use Section 442 , part 442 . 4. to revoke your Special Permit. If you have any questions, I can be reached at 898-4428 . Respectfully submitted, George R. Senter, Sr. , CEO. From this letter, it is the consensus of the Board -- and the Board can correct me if I'm wrong -- that when this June 1st comes, the Board would like to have Mr. Senter and Mr. O'Brien come to a Planning Board meeting so we can reiterate the stipulations that were made at that particular time . And from that point forward, they will either be met or the permit will be pulled without any extensions. I think the Planning Board agrees with that. M. Carey: I agree. C. Twigg: I agree. G. Totman The November minutes. Jeff Lewis made a motion to accept them as presented, and Sheldon Clark seconded the motion. All those in favor? (All were in favor.) Palmer's subdivision, does everybody understand what they're asking for? M. Carey: Yes. J. Lewis: They just to table it, right? M. Carey: No . They want an extension on it. G. Totman I think this is something we should talk about. We put time limits on these and Fred Portzline is in the same situation. He talked to me probably in November or December. He had read the Ordinance and his time was up and he hadn't filed it yet. And so I told him at some later date I'd bring it up and we'd get back with him, but don't worry about it right now. This is one of those things where you can always find something wrong with what you're doing. You see, and it's up to us I suppose, whether we extend it or don't extend it or we put it on our agenda that we're working on it; then it keeps them okay. Supposing, Cecil, you have four lots up there and you decide you want to subdivide into four lots so you can sell them. And you don't necessarily have a particular buyer for them, but you want to have approval from the Planning Board that you can do it if you do get a buyer. So you do it, get it approved by the Planning Board, and you put it on the market. You might not get a buyer for a couple of years. But if you file it with the County Clerk as a subdivision, then you immediately have to start paying taxes on four building lots rather than an open field. And sometimes people just never do sell them. So what a lot of towns do is when you sell that first lot, then you've got to file it because then it becomes the building lots . I know of some and I've seen some where it went four or five years . The guy wanted to do it and had some grandiose ideas and he never did sell any of them. If he'd of filed them with the County Clerk, he would have had to pay taxes on every one of them. He had nine lots -- the one I'm thinking about. You know Butch Burris. Just for an example . So I can see why they don't want to file it right away because the minute they file it, they've got to start paying taxes on it. M. Carey: Have the Palmers filed theirs? G. Totman No. Not yet. And that's why they are asking for an extension. We can give them an extension. M. Carey: Right now, the way the Ordinance reads, we can give them an extension for 90 days. G. Totman See, the problem is --- C. Twigg: The time limit -- what was the reasoning for the time limit? G. Totman I think it was in the old Ordinance and we just didn't pick it up. 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 18 January 1996 S. Clark: Why shouldn't it be that it will be there until they sell the first lot; otherwise, it wouldn't take effect? G. Totman Because in order to change it, we've got to make a recommendation back to the Town Board . The Town Board has got to make the change . S. Clark: Well this is the time to do it, isn't it? G. Totman What I would suggest is to recognize the fact that their filing date is coming fast and we're taking into consideration as to what we want to do about it. And in the next month , either February or March, we'll act on it and give them a 90-day extension or whatever, but it'll give us some time to think about whether we want to go to the Town Board or not and ask for an extension or eliminate it and give us some time to maybe work up a case for the Town Board . Does that make sense to anybody? C. Twigg: Yes, that sounds good . J. Lewis: That would be the way to do it, I guess. G. Totman Does somebody want to move that we're taking Palmefs request for an extension of their approval under consideration and we'll bring it up at a future meeting? That covers them and gives us time to work on it. G. Van Slyke : I so move. M. Carey: I second it. J. Lewis: Are we going to try to bring it up before the Town Board? G. Totman Yes. I think we should . All those in favor? (All voted in favor. ) Anybody else got anything to bring up before the Board? I don't know if any of you are interested, but I had some copies made of what they call The Upstate Planner. There are interesting cases in there if you want to take them home and look at it. Different things related to land use activities and stuff like that. M. Carey: How come we're not getting that book anymore? G. Totman "Across the Boards"? M. Carey: No, the one that told us what's going on in New York -- the different meetings. I never got one, did you? C. Twilgg: I haven't got one in quite a while. M. Carey: Because usually I look over those meetings and decide which one . . . G. Totman So is there anything else to bring up before the Board? M. Carey: No. I make a motion we adjourn the meeting. J. Lewis: I second it. G. Totman All in favor? (All were in favor. ) The meeting was adjourned at 9910 p.m . Respectfully submitted, Joan E. Fitch Recording Secretary 7