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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995-09-21 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Thursday, 21 September 1995 Board Members (*present) Others Present *George Totman , Chairman Robert Walpole *Monica Carey Joan E . Fitch , Recording Secretary *Sheldon Clark David Cole *Jeff Lewis Don & Margaret Palmer *Verl Rankin Cindy & Mickey Herzing George VanSlyke *Cecil Twigg The meeting was called to order at 8: 12 p.m. by Monica Carey, Acting Chairperson. M. Carey: We have a quorum here, so let's approve the August minutes. Does anyone want to make a motion to approve them? V. Rankin: I make the motion to approve them. J. Lewis: I'll second it. M. Carey: Okay. All in favor? (All were in favor.) Bob, why don't you get up and explain to us what we've got here . R. Walpole: Did everyone get a map on Bishop's? Okay. I pulled the tax map which might show this somewhat better. This is all of Bishop's property (part of TM # 16- 1 -7 . 2) in reference to Chipman Corners Road . Just to update you , on the west side of the road 30 acres of that has been sold . I think we discussed it last month . There's still 150-foot of road frontage, 6 or 7 acres left here on the south end of the property. Across the road, some time ago . . . V. Rankin: Where are we? R. Walpole: Chipman Corners. V. Rankin: Yes, but I don't see that one little -- C. Twigg: Where is Sears Road? R. Walpole: Sears Road is right here - - Cayuga County. C. Twigg: Well, we're talking -- this is bottom-side up . R. Walpole: Way back in 1992, we were in here and I think it's in this file , we sold this one lot, 3. 87 acres off the east side of the road which was all part of this one parcel . These three lots on the end were pre-existing and we sold the 2 . 17 acres which is part of the same parcel off Sears Road , C. Twigg: Is that where they tore that barn down - - where is that? R. Walpole: That's right here. That's on the opposite side . That's on the left side of the road . So what Bishop wants to do now - - people from Arizona have a purchase offer on the balance of this property right here . Bishop holds all this, so this is going to eliminate all the road frontage on Chipman Corners Road, and this piece here will go with this property here -- the back piece . M. Carey: So we're not landlocked . 1 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 R. Walpole: We're not land locked or anything because Bishop owns all this. This was set up this was way years ago when the partnership set up . Each one of them was going to have a lot. In the end, Nancy ended up it and now Jim has it all . There's no separate deeds here, but it's all broke up into separate tax parcels. But it's all owned by the one owner. So 6. 935 acres -- so this actually triggers a subdivision on that side of the road . But there , again, we're into the third year -- we lack about 30-60 days. This piece back here which is approximately 7 acres will just go with the rest of the farm off Sears Road. V. Rankin: Sears Road is up here? R. Walpole: That's correct. This is . . . a property line because that's off an old farm when the father bought it years ago . V. Rankin: You got the three long lots which the Bishops are supposed to have . Where's that? Over here? R. Walpole: That's up here , yes. That's all off Sears Road , M. Carey: So basically what we're looking at is three lots have been sold off this property in about the last three years? C. Twigg: You sold some on the west side, right? R. Walpole: We sold 30 acres on the west side. There's one lot left back there, 150 foot, so we left one lot. I'm not sure if we need subdivision on this or, basically, if it triggers a subdivision -- that would be my - -- M. Carey: I think so, too. Does the Board think this would trigger a subdivision? C. Twigg: I wasn't following . R. Walpole: Well technically, Cecil, these two lots transferred in 1992 . This becomes the third lot out of this parcel on the east side of the road . C. Twigg: 492 -- that's not three years ago? R. Walpole: Well, we lack about 60 days. C. Twigg: It's going to close before that? R. Walpole: This won't close until January. C. Twigg: What do you need a - - R. Walpole: Well, because part of the thing is that one of the - - C. Twigg: The closing time would be the time that would go from, so what are you monkeying with a subdivision for? R. Walpole: Because basically these people are going to build and we're going to go in there and do some septic work and stuff prior to it - - the closing. C. Twigg: Well, I wouldn't worry about it then . R. Walpole: Well, I wanted to run it by the Planning Board so that when the application comes in for the building - - C. Twigg: Well, if you're not going to close -- I mean the last date was the date they closed on the last property was in '92 . That's your reference point is the closing date . And the closing date's not going to be until after the first of the year. 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 R. Walpole: Well, if that's the wishes of the Board it's all I need to do. C. Twigg: It doesn't look like any complications, so you might as well save yourself from paperwork. That would be my - - R. Walpole: I don't have a problem with it, but I want it on the record we were here so the Planning Board could make the final decision on what they want to do. C. Twigg: I don't see any reason for the extra paperwork now, do you? R. Walpole: I don't, but I've got lawyers we have to deal with , bank attorneys - - and I want the Building Inspector so when the building permit -- C. Twigg: You don't have to deal with them until after the first of the year and the time is going to be up then. R. Walpole: Well I agree. But I also didn't want them to say we had ignored the -- C. Twigg: You wouldn't do that, we know that. R. Walpole: I don't want the bank saying "you didn't go to the Planning Board . " C. T w gg: Personally, I don't see why you'd -- you're not required to so why would you do it? R. Walpole: Because the purchase offer's in effect. C. T wigg: That isn't what they go by. R. Walpole: That's correct. V. Rankin: Let's table it for tonight. S. Clark: Or just table it until later in the meeting. Can we do that or not? M. Carey: It's up to the Board. V. Rankin: I move we table it. S. Clark: We might better run it by George before we make something we can't go back on on a vote. That's my opinion . C. T wigg: It's up to you guys, but I'd say -- it's legal, and that's the benchmark is the date -- J. Lewis: It's not going to happen until January . C. Twigg: If he does it before then, he can't do it anyhow. R. Walpole: Unless I come in and file the application . C. T w gg: Unless you come in and file the application, but if you try to file the application before the three years is up , George is going to throw it back at you . J. Lewis: You're not filing the application right now anyway. You're just bringing it up to the Board . M. Carey: Well , we've got a motion . Verl made a motion to table it. Do I have a second or -- J. Fitch: Until later this evening? 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 M. Carey: Right. J. Lewis: What are we tabling, though? S. Clark: The vote on it until later this evening when we've. discussed it with George . J. Lewis: I don't know what we're voting on here, V. Rankin: If you don't know what the heck you're voting on, don't vote , Period , M. Carey: Well , here he is so we don't have to worry, G. Totman : I'm sorry; it just plain slipped my mind , My apologies. What have you done so far? J. Pitch: They approved the minutes, so that's done . R. Walpole: We're at Bishop's property. When the father bought the whole farm, then there was a partnership and each one of the kids got lots. Since then they've signed off -- In 1992 we sold this lot on Chipman Corners Road , on the east side -- October, I think, And this one in October or November sometime which is on Sears Road . That's the only two pieces of property on the east side that hasn't been transferred off that property except within the family. And Bishop owns the rest of it , We have a person that wants to buy all the road frontage , about 7 acres, which is right here which cleans up all the road frontage on the east side of Chipman Corners Road , G. Totman : These were all approved here before? R. Walpole: That's right, The 6, 905 acres will go back with this property, G. Totman : It will go with that one right there? R. Walpole: Yes. That's right, G. Totman : And what was the date of these? R. Walpole: '92 , G. Totman: What month of 492? R. Walpole: Well, October/November. Now the bottom 6. 9 acres involved in this will not transfer -- G. Totman: Which one is that? R. Walpole: This piece here. G. Totman: We're to a point over three years? M. Carey: That's what we're arguing about here , G. Totman : That way you don't have to get into a major, Right now, and I've looked at it before, we've subdivided and approved all the subdivisions and all of the rest of the land except that one parcel. And even if you declared it a major subdivision and went through all the public hearings, there's still no reason to reject it because it's just the one remaining lot left in the whole thing, So it would be my suggestion to give conditional approval on it now. Of course, they want to take possession of it as quickly as possible probably, right? R. Walpole: They are going to take some possession if it so they can do the testing and stuff, but all construction will take place next spring and a closing won't occur until after the first -- G. Totman : So if the Planning Board gives the tentative approval and then approves it at their November meeting, it would satisfy your interest - - 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 R. Walpole: Yes, G. Totman : and it would make it legal as far as what we're talking about. This is being practical more than anything else because no matter what you do with this whole thing and however you change it, and you invite all the neighbors and everything else , there's no real practical reason why you should not approve that lot. It's got the road frontage , it's got the acreage , and it's just finishing up that parcel of land . So I don't know -- what does the rest of the Board feel? M. Carey: Well, we're just trying to decide whether it should be a subdivision -- how the '92 year was going to affect it. We thought the three-year period was up on it and by the time the sale went through in January, it would be gone -- the three years would be over with . C. Twigg: And the benchmark is the date the deed is transferred . G. Totman: No. It's the date we approve it. That's why I said if we approve it in December or November. C. Twigg: When you go back to the '92 date , you go back to the date that the Planning Board approved those lots? G. Totman : Yes, C. Twigg: Well, go back and look and you may see the three-year period is up now. M. Carey: Yes, that's true . C. Twigg: It was transferred in October; it may have been approved in June or July. G. Totman : October '92 . C. Twigg: That's when it was approved and that's when it was transferred . M. Carey: So if we wait until November to approve it - - C. Twigg: Well, I didn't realize the approval date was it. R. Walpole: I just figured it was when the deed transferred. That's all right. Did they give you any information on Carrington's? M. Carey: No. Just the map. R. Walpole: All right. There's been some changes as of yesterday . What we were originally thinking of doing -- this is strictly the plot plan -- what Carrington is going to do - - G. Totman: Bob , before you go any further, I think we should have a motion from the Board to tentatively approve that and , if nothing changes, bring it up and make the final decision at the November meeting. Otherwise, there's no -- M. Carey: I'll make the motion . C. Twigg: I'll second it. G. Totman: Any questions? All in favor? (All were in favor. ) J. Fitch: What was the motion for? G. Totman : The motion was for tentative approval of the Bishop subdivision, with the final decision made at the November meeting. 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 R. Walpole: Okay, what our intentions were on Carrington's was we wanted to sell two lots, possibly three lots, that are served by public water. We sent our engineers in there and the people flew in three weeks ago from California and put a purchase offer on two of the lots which we were going to sell . . . . V. Rankin: Where's this at? R. Walpole: This is on Elm Street. (TM # 26- 1 - 11 ) C. Twigg: Corner of Lick and Elm. R. Walpole: In the meantime . . . . . . it looks like the people from California are going to take the whole block -- on Elm Street -- he can sell without even coming in here for subdivision approval. The other thing is that . . . . a building lot of 1 .047 acres at 150 feet on Lick Street -- so that would trigger one , two - - actually it's going to trigger a subdivision . But as of right now, this is going to be all one unit. M. Carey: That whole -- from his house to the end of the property then? The open field, basically? R. Walpole: The open field is going to be all one unit. There will be one lot -- on Lick Street -- the rest will be treated as a subdivision. C. Twigg: Does that go to the top of the hill? R. Walpole: Yes it does. . . . M. Carey: This might be something we want to look at with the hill coming right there . R. Walpole: Is that a Town road? M. Carey: I don't know - - V. Rankin: Where - - Lick Street? M. Carey: Lick Street - - yes, I know where that is -- J. Lewis: We can't stop it because of the driveway though , right? We can just make a suggestion. G. Totman: This is just a sketch plan . I think when we get the formal application, then run it by them. C. Twigg: We could do to him just like the Ithaca's Planning Board is doing to Wal-Mart. G. Totman : Does anybody else have any other questions on it? C. Twigg: One thing they were talking was on these crests - - J. Lewis: If you're going up the hill where it would be a danger, okay, that would be on the left- hand side of the road -- the driveway, right? M. Carey: But still, you would be backing out into traffic. People coming up over that hill are usually gunning their engines coming up over. J. Lewis: Okay - - so they'll have to put a turnaround in his lot then . M. Carey: But I think it's something we should -- - Re Walpole: Have the highway department address the issues of the County and have the County engineer give a report on it and bring it back next meeting. (Inaudible conversation regarding driveways -- secretary could not hear. ) 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 J. Lewis: I think it would be more of a problem if it were on the other side of the road. Would they put a sign up there then? G. Totman : Well, there's not much more we can do with it now then. R. Walpole: No, the only issue would be the driveway at this point. Is there any other issue involved? We'll do whatever you want us to . G. Totman: Not as long as anybody else has got any. M. Carey: No. G. Totman: David -- what have you got on your mind? (David Cole, TM # 19-01 -01 . 2 - 871 Clark Street Extension) Wait a minute . Did you get introduced to everybody? This is David Cole , D. Cole: I'm a former resident of Groton, years ago, for a short period of time and I'm a 23 year veteran of the Virgil scene . I'm representing my mother's estate on Clark Street Extension - - the lawyers are the ones that goofed. Mr. Albanese and Mr. Fenstermacher allowed us to sell property without telling me about the proper procedures in Groton that we had to have a subdivision, so this is kind of backwards. She has approximately 30 acres on Clark Street Extension and she had made a couple of deals before she died -- sometime before she died, I don't know, a couple of years. One was with a neighbor whose name is Wilson and she is giving him property next to his house so that he could have enough room to build a garage on. And beyond that, towards the creek -- the property to the right she had a land contract with a fellow -- the 3 . 9 acres. So when she died, of course, we -- the three of us - - decided that we would follow through with her wishes and sell Wilson the piece that he was dealing with her which was a contract, and the land contract with the other fellow. So we went and sold -- put the rest of it up for sale , the 24. 9 acres, and a Mr. Nye bought that back sometime between January and March . So that deal went through . Meanwhile , the deal that was pending with Wilson went through because they were waiting for the -- the deal with Wilson would have gone through before she died , but the deed they couldn't get because there was still a mortgage on the property. So now -- actually, like I said, they goofed on it and didn't tell us we had to have a subdivision, and fortunately, when the paperwork went through in Tompkins County it kicked it back and one person or the other person, whatever, George found out about it somehow and said it should have been a subdivision . So I guess that's actually why -- C. Twigg: That Wilson -- that could be a boundary change . D. Cole: Not knowing the technical terms and everything, I think that's what - - C. Twigg: That wouldn't be a lot. D. Cole: He's ,just increasing his piece of property. G. Totman: These two maps -- this shows Mr. Nye bought on both sides -- D. Cole: No he didn't. I don't know where this came from. This is the map that is part of the survey right here. G. Totman : This is a copy of the tax map and somebody's put that in there -- probably George or Carol did it. D. Cole: They have this . G. Totman: Didn't come out right, anyway. M. Carey: Where is Nye? D. Cole: Up by where it says Lot 69, that's where the house and the garage are . That was her house right there with the garage. 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 G. Totman : You didn't turn in anything like that? D. Cole: No. I don't know where this came from -- it's news to me . G. Totman: Is there ABC's on yours? Let me take yours a minute so we can talk. D. Cole: Okay, G. Totman: This is A, B. and C? D. Cole: Right. G. Totman : C is where your mother's house is? D. Cole: No. A is. G. Totman: A is. So Mr. Nye bought your mother's house and all the land in back? D. Cole: Right, G. Totman: What is C? D. Cole: C is the piece of property that she had a land contract with a guy named Grant. So that was a pending deal there . He was paying her money on that and he had it almost paid for. M. Carey: So B would be the property that this Wilson wanted to put the garage on? D. Cole: Right. Where it says "house . " Where it's not labeled A, B, or C or whatever. That's Wilson's house there . G. Totman : Let me run this by you now to see if this makes sense . Before any of this transaction happened, Mr. Wilson's house is here. And he comes to your mother and he wants to buy that lot next to him. So if we did it properly, we would have a boundary change there. She owns all this other property. So now you've split off the vacant lot over here where it says "Cole" on the thing -- Lot C -- so you're basically only selling one lot. D. Cole: Right G. Totman: Correct? D. Cole: From the original, right - - plus a boundary change . G. Totman : You're having a boundary change and selling one lot. C. Twigg: That don't trigger much . V. Rankin: Of course he's buying all the rest of this down here - - G. Totman : That's still all one lot. This was all one lot. She sold this as the lot. She made this a subdivision by selling that separately and had a boundary change here. What I'm saying is only true if this is actually a boundary change. If he keeps that as two lots, then he can't - - it would be contingent upon that. D. Cole: It's not big enough . See, his driveway comes right here, so when he -- apparently he came to you, I assume . G. Totman: It makes a difference because this Lot C cannot get a building permit from George . D. Cole: C already has a permit and everything because originally she was giving it/ selling it to my brother. So it already has a septic system approved and it already has a well approved . 8 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 G. Totman: But you don't have a building permit for a house? D. Cole: No. Right, G. Totman: What I'm saying is -- when whoever buys that wants to get a permit for a house , George can't give it unless we approve something here. Now, is there an urgency on having this done by tomorrow or the next day so somebody can do something? D. Cole: No, I don't believe so. G. Totman: What my suggestion is, and the Board, of course, would have to agree, that we hold this up with the idea that you come in with proof that that boundary change was made -- that it is a boundary change , and then we will make a motion at the next meeting that we approve -- we can approve this boundary change tonight - - we can do the boundary change . And once we find out for sure that is a boundary change and that Mr. Wilson agrees that was done and it's recorded in the County Clerk's Office , then the rest of it we can make a motion at the next meeting saying that it's only a one-lot subdivision and doesn't need to come before the Board. M. Carey: But this Wilson property - - was that sold off this property originally? D. Cole: Originally -- where it says "house" there -- that was my brother's at one time . G. Totman : It's been there more than ten years, right? D. Cole: I don't know -- yes, I imagine. G. Totman : More than five years -- put it that way, D. Cole: I think it's more than ten years. I don't think he's been in there for five years. It was there, I think -- originally we had a trailer next to my mother a long time ago and he had the house down beyond us. G. Totman: Not making it sound bureaucratic , but do you understand what I'm saying? D. Cole: Kind of. So we need from him proof that it's a boundary change? G. Totman: Or you need to go to the County Clerk and see if that was actually done - - or somebody needs to. C. Twigg: In other words, if he kept that as a separate lot then we can't call that a boundary change . But if he absorbed it in with his other lot then we call it a boundary change . D. Cole: I see what you're saying. G. Totman : Back when he got -- C. Twigg: I'm sure he absorbed it, because -- D. Cole: Well, I know his intent, but, his intent is to get the piece so he could build a garage on and probably he can't build a garage unless he's absorbed it into the whole thing, right? Is that the idea? G. Totman : Yes. Because by the looks of it here, that lot where his property is, his house is, unless that was divided off before 1972 , that was illegal also. M. Carey: I see that. D. Cole: It's surprising that my mother didn't pick up on these things being that she was a lawyer's secretary. 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 G. Totman : See, before 1985 , the Ordinance Department in the Town of Groton was kind of flippy- floppy. We didn't really - - see , Gary Wood took over in 1985 and before that it really wasn't that serious of watching and checking everything here in the Town of Groton - - or a lot of towns. Once they started the NYS Uniform Building Code, then a lot of towns hired somebody to do the job. Those things were picked up then and they started checking the slips that came back from the Assessment Department. That's how this got picked up. It looks to me like we've got to have proof that that is a boundary change . We can approve a boundary change, but Mr. Wilson isn't here to agree to that, so he doesn't have to be here as long as we've got proof from the Assessment Department that it's now one lot. D. Cole: Okay. G. Totman : Actually, we can check with them. They can tell you whether it's been changed or not . It apparently hasn't been changed recently or they would have gotten it -- D. Cole: I think that was official in May, G. Totman: Okay, the last slips they got from the Assessment Department changing properties was in May here, So if that wasn't done until the middle of May, it probably won't get into the next one because the Town Clerks right now are up to May with the Assessment Department, So I hate to send you home and have you come back -- you're not working now so you don't have anything else to do . D. Cole: Yes I am. And I hope I can get out of here and get home tonight - - otherwise I'm leaving my car as I'm having electrical problems. G. Totman : Where are you working? D. Cole: I've got a temporary job at Time Warner in Ithaca. G. Totman : I hate to have you do that, but I can't see any way else that we can -- D. Cole: We want to get this thing cleaned up legally so - - G. Totman : Well you've got to so somebody can do something. Okay. Does everybody agree to this and understand it? (Everybody nodded in agreement.) If, in fact, it is a boundary change, we can take it up at our next meeting and take care of it ourselves without your coming. C. Twigg: What are we going to do with this map here . It's misleading. G. Totman : That one that they drew there is very misleading, I would -- it looks like somebody had drawn that in there and then they photocopied it, But I have no idea why they did it that way , D. Cole: Looks like something that happened in Virgil, G. Totman : What we should do tonight, maybe to make it more legal, is to approve the boundary change and have it contingent upon our approval proof that it was done , C. Twigg: I thought that was what we were going to do. G. Totman: Okay. If we do that tonight, then if we find out it was done , then everything else is taken care of by itself. C. Twigg: And he wouldn't have to come back, G. Totman: That's right. C. Twigg: I'll make a motion that we approve that boundary change contingent upon him bringing the proof that it was. M. Carey: I'll second that. 10 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 G. Totman: All in favor? Anybody against? (All were in favor.) I'll inform Carol about what we're up to so she'll know what you're talking about. Okay, Don & Margaret Palmer. D. Palmer: We had submitted last month a major subdivision application . We come back now with a couple of modifications to that. The concept has not changed at all. Lot B- 1 has now been surveyed and there is a change on the original boundary line . It consists of approximately 7, 19 acres in that parcel -- G. Totman : Instead of 9. 3 . D. Palmer: Correct. And we'd like to request that be treated as a boundary change and the adjacent Lot A- 1 now becomes approximately 9.67 acres -- just taking the additional acreage and moving it over to that adjoining lot. G. Totman: So 13- 1 is going to the property adjacent to it? D. Palmer: Correct, G. Totman : Who owns that? D. Palmer: Robert Warner, C. Twigg: Who lives across the road? M. Palmer: Across the road is Mayo. D. Palmer: That doesn't have any road frontage . G. Totman : That takes care of B- 1 . D. Palmer: We've already gone through with A-3 which is the one that was approved last month . I guess one of our charges at the end of last month was to contact the County Health Department to see if this transaction would trigger treatment as a major subdivision . The real estate called the County and also sent a letter to them and we've got a response from John Andersson, Director of the Division of Environmental Health at the County, and the sum and substance of it is that "the division of your 62- acre parcel into six or seven lots, all over five acres, is not subject to any article or rule of NYS or Tompkins County Sanitary Codes enforced by Tompkins County Health Department. Realty subdivisions regulated by the State and County consist of at least five lots, each five acres or less in size . All the lots you propose are larger than five acres." And he goes on, "Should one person or group of people working together purchase one or more lots from you and proceed to create smaller lots, that person will have to work with us if five or more lots, five acres or less in size are created from the larger one by that person . Otherwise, the only involvement we will have is at the time lot owners decide to erect a building or construct a sewage system. At that time, the owner will need to secure permits to construct a sewage system in accordance with Article VI, Tompkins County Sanitary Code . Thank you for inquiring about the regulations and if you need any further information , please contact me . " J. Fitch: What's the date on that letter, Don? D. Palmer: The date is 13 September. C. Twigg: There's quite a lot of good information in that letter. It enlightened me a little . D. Palmer: If you'd like a copy, you're welcome to have that. I think it does clear up some confusion - - G. Totman : We should have a copy of the letter for the file . D. Palmer: I guess what we're asking for at this point are two things . One is to approve the boundary line change on the property adjoining Robert Warner, and also to act on the request we made 11 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 last month and ask again that this whole parcel be treated as a rural subdivision as opposed to a major subdivision, therefore bypassing the remaining requirements of a public hearing and so on . J. Lewis: Can I see that letter? M. Palmer: Sure. G. Totman : I'm looking up the definition of rural subdivision so we don't make any mistakes . "A rural subdivision of land during a three-year period that results in three to five total lots, each of which is five acres and which does not include any new streets, utilities, clustering, public open space or facilities, does not conflict with the Code, the official map or any other Town development, and does not adversely affect the use or development of the adjoining land . " Okay. I just wanted to make sure that we read that into the record so the minutes will show that we knew what we were doing if we do it as a rural subdivision, Five lots, You can't have any more than five lots . The question is - - C. Twigg: In other words, if she had more than five lots, then he would come under this real estate -- G. Totman : No , we would have to treat it as a major subdivision. The only difference to that is that we would have to hold a public hearing and send notice to the adjacent landowners which probably would be no problem, and it would make a difference in their fee, V. Rankin: You said on this boundary change, B- 1 you moved some of that over onto A- 1 ? D. Palmer: Right, M. Palmer: From A- 1 . A- 1 was 7 acres and B- 1 was 9 acres, When they got the survey done it made the boundary change a little smaller. So what remained -- G. Totman : Peggy, listen to this carefully, the first sentence, Subdivision of land during a three- year period. That's -- what I'm getting at is it's really a six-lot subdivision because that other was done this year, Unless we consult -- unless we take one of those lots and combine it so you've got four instead of five new ones, we've got to call it a major and call a public hearing and have a major subdivision which only means a difference in the fee and having a public hearing. M. Palmer: But then down the road if we split that up , we have to come back for an adjustment? G. Totman : Well, after three years you wouldn't have to do anything. M. Palmer: But if under three years somebody comes in and doesn' t want this whole - - G. Totman : They would have to come in -- M. Palmer: We'd have to come in and re-align it, G. Totman: Yes . Right now you don't know if anybody wants to buy it the way it is anyway. So if you took one of those two lots you think might not be a good seller and just made them into one lot, then we could pass it was a rural subdivision tonight if they wanted to . Otherwise, we would go through the whole thing and then you might have somebody come along and would rather -- it's kind of hard. Peggy, you can better understand it than a lot of people that would come in , Over the years as you've set here taking the minutes of the meeting, there was one farmer who used to come in all the time and sell lots off his farm and they would say -- a lot of people would say to him, well, give us a plan of the whole farm. There's no way he could give a plan of the whole farm because he doesn' t know who's going to drive down the road and want to buy this lot or buy that lot. And in some cases Planning Boards do require them to do that. After you sell two or three , they'll say take the whole parcel of land and divide it up and the next time you come back we'll call it a major subdivision, But to me that's a foolish way to do it because you don't know this is what they want to buy, And then they've got to come back in and do it all over again , It's a real extra added expense on the landowner. That's the only reason I say if you didn't think it would be any hardship at all, you do it by combining one of 12 0Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 the lots and make it a rural subdivision . If you don't want to do that, we can accept it today as a preliminary plat and set it up for a public hearing at the next meeting. C. Twigg: How can you combine one lot? In that first lot there, that 570 feet, 507 , somebody may come in and not want all that -- they've got no prospects for it now . G. Totman: Make it 707, C. Twigg: Yes. Make it 707 or make that little one 500, or -- G. Totman: Really, it's up to Peggy and Don . If they want to do it now or go through the public hearing and go the other way. C. Twigg: They'd have to go through it either now or then and maybe not then if they don't get a buyer for it. D. Palmer: Let's go ahead with the public hearing as a major subdivision and request the boundary line change on B- 1 . G. Totman: That being the case, C. Twigg: Now they can come back in and change this major subdivision, right? M. Palmer: Move the lines. C. Twigg: Move the lines if something happens and somebody comes in and wants to buy a different portion than they have marked out here , it's no big job . G. Totman : Okay, Cecil, you do it. (Referring to the SEQR) . Cecil Twigg then reads aloud Part H of the Short Environmental Assessment Form . Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part II, except the presence of wetlands was duly noted in C1 ; however, it was still determined by the Planning Board, upon a motion made by Monica Carey, seconded by Jeff Lewis, with all members voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not result in any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a negative declaration , M. Palmer: I have a question on Section 241 which is the major subdivision requirement. Number O says a certified copy of an actual field survey of the outer boundary line should be provided. Does that mean you just want a survey of the outer edge , not of all the lots broken up, or -- G. Totman: Well, basically what we're going to need is - - you've got a survey here showing what all the dimensions are of lots, right? When it's passed, before it's officially approved, you have to bring the survey in of the whole property. M. Palmer: The outer or - - G. Totman : Each lot that we're approving. And then the mylar that the surveyor has . You've got Bruce Davison? He knows exactly what you need . If we pass it here at the next meeting, it's contingent upon your bringing Bruce's mylar copy and two extras so we have two to keep here, and then I have to sign those before you can sell a lot. M. Palmer: So what's the -- it says a field survey of the outer boundary line . That doesn't mean the outside perimeter? It means the boundary line of each lot. G. Totman : Of each lot. We've basically got enough to approve it. And as long as what Bruce brings in to us matches what you've given us here, that's all it amounts to . M. Palmer: So we really don't need that until after the next meeting? 13 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 G. Totman: Bruce has done a lot of these . He understands . C. Twigg: I make a motion we approve this boundary change on the Warner property. S. Clark: I'll second it. G. Totman: That's the eastern portion of the total property. C. Twigg: The easternmost lot. G. Totman: Okay. All in favor? (All were in favor.) Now if I sign this, this has got to stay here. You get a photocopy of what I signed. This doesn't say that it's a boundary change, so we're going to have to note here that it's a boundary change on this . If we draw a line like this with an arrow to it and say this is a boundary change -- We've approved the boundary change. We've determined that it's going to be a major subdivision, and we're setting the public hearing up for 8 o'clock on the 19th of October in the Court Room. All in favor? (All were in favor of the public hearing date/time . ) I think we're all done with you . Okay -- the next one is going to be completely different. You're getting into McLean now. This is Mr. Hilltop -- yes, Mr. Hilltop -- M. Herzing: I'm Mickey Herring and this is my wife, Cindy. Before I go ahead, I'd like to tell you this meeting is so much better than the ones in Ithaca. We're from Ithaca and they are a bunch of stuffed shirts down there . I'm serious. I've been through a ton of them and this is the way it should be . G. Totman: You mean the chairman should be late? What I meant to say is he's the president of Hilltop Quikstop . M. Herzing: We own a convenience store near Ithaca College. We've been there for six years. Currently we have gas, convenience store items, grocery, deli, pizza -- we do a major delivery business to the college in the Danby area. It's been brought to our attention by sales people , business people, family members, that McLean needs something like this. And there's been some attempts in the past. I'm not here to badmouth anybody, but I think presentation has lacked to a degree. So we are looking to get into that area. We feel it's a busy enough area that would substantiate the investment we would have to make. It would do wonders for the community as far as having something available . Not to slap ourselves on the back, but we kind of think we know what we're doing with the convenience store business. G. Totman: Just so everybody knows where you're talking about -- it's right in here. M. Herzing: It's right on the Dryden line (TM 38-7- 1) . It is across from the elementary school, adjacent to the mobile home park on the McLean side . J. Lewis: Is it near Morrow (sp?)? G. Totman : Second house back. M. Herzing: This is the school here . Here is Peruville Road right here . We looked at numerous lots and different situations. G. Totman: Let me explain something if I may just to get the Board -- I live in McLean . The reason I had these maps made up ahead of time is because -- first of all, I think the idea is great because McLean does need something very badly. In fact, the guy that built the Quikstop in Lansing on the corner of Peruville -- I tried to talk him into coming over. The owner of that is originally from Groton , but he told me for what he's doing the market isn't that good for him. I tried my darndest because I think McLean needs something, so don't get me wrong for what I'm saying -- but I drive by that place every day of the week. And for the life of me , I can't see where there was enough room in there to have a building and a gas station and have the school across the road . I thought we might run into a lot of problems, so I'm not putting that up as a blockade, but I think we should look at that as planners . M. Herzing: That's why we're here. That's why we're all here. 14 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 G. Totman : Because I really have some really strong reservations on -- I don't think it's quite a half acre of land. And -- M. Herzing: Point 47, G. Totman: obviously you'd have to go to the Health Department to get approval for your septic system -- M. Herzing: Which is a major hurdle. G. Totman: It's a major hurdle. So I guess what I would rather see you do -- I think we should look at it, discuss it, and give you our preliminary thoughts, but have you come back with the approval from the Health Department on what you're doing. Because you've got to put tanks in, you've got to have septic in, you're going to have to have facilities for toilets, and you're going to have to have the DEC approval. M. Herzing: Been there. G. Totman : You know all that because you've been in business. M. Herzing: We're meeting with the County on Tuesday - Ward Hungerford. He's the highway engineer? G. Totman : He's the super in charge . M. Herzing: So we're meeting with him Tuesday to make sure we can even get into the lot driveway- wise . The septic is definitely a concern. The lot might not be big enough . G. Totman: It's too bad , too -- M. Herzing: I just want to say this is probably the only -- we solicited to a lot of people -- feasible lots, starting last January. This is the only one -- G. Totman: I'll tell you the lot that would have been the best for that -- M. Herzing: Right across the street -- in. . . G. Totman: Yes, you're right. M. Herzing: The guy was very unreasonable about what he wants. G. Totman : Clarence Yeoman's (sp?) old house. M. Herzing: Nash owns it now. If you have $ 150, 000 you can buy it. That's what he told me . J. Lewis: Have you looked around Groton? C. Herzing: Actually, we have . M. Herzing: You 're looking at close to a quarter million dollar investment. G. Totman : And it's got to be on that road . M. Herzing: It has to be . What's attractive with that is the traffic is very slow. There's an intersection there. There's an intersection down below. Ideal convenience stores are at intersections and speed limits of 30 to 35 miles an hour. It fits the bill. C. Herzing: And the trailer park. M. Herzing: Yes. It's a major trailer park there. We counted somewhere between 90 and 100. 15 ' Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 G. Totman : 97. M. Herzing: Okay. We were close . G. Totman: They've got 97 pads. M. Herzing: What we're looking at, and I do understand your reservations . We have some reservations to and some hurdles to jump . C. Herzing: We sat down with a major oil distributor that put up their own convenience stores all over the place and have all the popular packages, and this specific architect builds their stores. He sat down and said no problem as far as their laws go where they are . M. Herzing: Having proper parking, proper placement of MPDs, meeting pumps, canopy -- G. Totman: We'd have to see your plot plan . And then we'd have to determine from the plot plan - - which would include where the buildings are going to be, where the septic's going to be, and where the tanks are going to be , and what percentage of the land is left for parking so that you don't have offstreet parking -- obviously you don't want it anyway. When I looked at that land , I though oh my gosh -- M. Herzing: There's no question , and we've played with some sketches -- this being a 2500-square foot store, this being a 24 by 48 canopy. The parking I haven't even finished . But just right there there's -- and it's all pretty much to scale the best I can do - - C. Herzing: The canopy's misleading because on there it looks like a building, even though it isn't. It does contain the fire suppression . M. Herzing: It is required by NYS now in any new installations . We went through what's called an upgrade at our store last March , a year and a half ago rather. And it was required and the Town of Ithaca had no trouble putting it through because of the fire suppression system in it. The technology in tanks and gasoline today is incredible . Leaks, there's computers, and you have secondary containment. And if they happen, you're going to know about it very quickly. G. Totman : If there's a leak in their tanks, the way they've got it set up right now, they have to have the devices in there that automatically shut off the valves in the tanks. M. Herzing: The whole tank setup is a tank in a tank, a line in a line , and then there's monitors in these things so when it leaks and these sensors get wet, it throws an alarm which can also be tied into your security system which then alerts and makes a phone call to say there's a problem. That's how far technology's come . We spent $ 125,000 last year at our store doing this -- canopy, tanks, and pumps. You only get to see about $25 ,000 of it. It's all in the ground. G. Totman: That is if your tank's in the ground . M. Herzing: Yes. It's an investment, but you're covered today because of technology as far as any problems. G. Totman : I watched the one go in over on the corner of Peruville - - Bob Chatterton's - - it was eye- opening to see the technology that went into that thing. M. Herzing: The lines themselves are now $75 a foot. But the technology of it is if it ever has a leak, rather than rip up everything you've put in, you pull it out at one end and you pull in another one at the same time . It's called Enviroflex. So now you're not ripping up your parking lot and everything else. NYS has thought it out, and DEC has. By 1998, everybody in NYS is supposed to have that kind of technology. Your mom and pop's are going to start to disappear -- those types of stores . G. Totman: Unfortunately. M. Herzing: Right. We're mom and pop looking to expand . 16 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 S. Clark: You're going to have pizza? M. Herzing: Initially no. Initially a cold deli, an ATM, videos, soft ice cream, kerosene, gas. I'm setting up the plan so that if the business shows it, I can kick out a wall, throw in pizza ovens and everything that it takes to do the pizza. On the pizza side of things, we know what we're doing. On a Friday night I've got ten delivery drivers taking pizzas out and that's no exaggeration. J. Lewis: When will you meet with the Health Department to find out about - - M. Herzing: After I see what Ward has to say on Tuesday. When he can give me a better guesstimate of where we can put the driveway and what the right-of-ways are and the radius from the intersection and things like that, then I can sit down with kind of a plot plan and go to the County and say here's where we propose putting our store, here's how big we want to do it, can we fit in a septic? One of the things that was brought to me by a person in the business , a good friend, is maybe you can tie into the mobile home park. I don't know who they are, but that is -- I mean I'm going to try to do that before I even try to put in a septic. G. Totman : How do you mean, "tie in"? M. Herzing: They have their own . . . . so if they would allow me to pay them so much per month on a flow rate basis, then I wouldn't have to put in a septic . Then the septic issue wouldn't be an issue. G. Totman : The owners of that park are the Simon brothers in Cortland . MVE Homes , M. Herzing: Right there on 281 , C. Twigg: You'd be required to put in a grease trap. M. Herzing: For? C. Twigg: The deli. M. Herzing: Initially we're just going to start with a cold deli . The way you do it today is you just have a separate dumpster out back and you just dump it in there and they come pick it up when needed. C. Twigg: You don't need one in the - - M. Herzing: No, because it doesn't go down your drain. You have a catcher underneath your grill and fryer and you just take it out. G. Totman: Cecil, what you're talking about is, I think, if they had a dishwasher in there then they would have a grease trap off the dishwasher. C. Twigg: Down in Florida we have to have a grease trap like a pizza shop. G. Totman : You got businesses in Florida, too? M. Herzing: I've got some pictures to go around. This is a store in Owego near Turner's Bridge, just something - - we're looking for a state-of-the-art presentation . That's what the area truly lacks. This is a real presentation of a convenience store . This is something similar -- that's around 2200 square feet, the building. We'd be doing Citgo gasoline through a company in Towanda, PA called Williams Oil who has the market share . M. Carey: It's very attractive looking. M. Herzing: If this lot would work for us, it would definitely work for Mrs. Dimmit (sp?) also since her husband did die last winter and she is looking to get out, so to speak, of the housing situation . 17 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 S. Clark: What about the barn across the driveway there? In front of the trailer park. C. Herzing: You're missing the Peruville Road people then that aren't turning to go into the mobile home park. G. Totman : There's people looked at that for the same reason . el S. Clark: Well, they started their business there, right? G. Totman : Well, it's just a fly by night -- C. Herzing: And there's no gas. I don't really think you can make it if you're not doing gas. M. Carey: There's really no place between Ithaca and --- C. Twigg: The gas is the draw. M. Herzing: By far. It brings the people to the door. We would also have - - when I say it's going to be total technology, it's what they call "pay at the pump" now. And it would be. You just stick your credit card in and I'm even looking into putting cash into the pump besides a credit card. They have those and it's working out with the oil companies . They feel it's a feasible situation. J. Lewis: Wow. That would be neat. M. Herzing: People love new things . We all do . And that's what draws. When we upgraded at our store, our volume went up 20% in the first six months. Just because we were new on the outside -- new pavement, new cement, new canopy, new pumps. And people love it. We all do. C. Twigg: Yes, but you don't know those people in McLean . Most of those guys haven' t had to know what to do -- Me Herzing: No, but the people going through . C. Twigg: Oh , you'll get the customers going through? V. Rankin: He's not interested in the ones in McLean . M. Herzing: Well, a store like this, you'll get your fly-by everyday traffic, but you've got to count on the local people right there . G. Totman : Really, in all sincerity, if you wanted to make a little bit bigger investment, there's a beautiful spot right down on the corner at the five corners. M. Herzing: The Trading Post? G. Totman : No, no , no , no . Across the road from the Trading Post, C. Twigg: The Elm Tree. M. Herzing: They were asking $210,000. It's down to $ 195,000 and the mortgage on it's $ 165, 000, So the bank's going to get it for that. C. Herzing: Even at $ 165,000 --- C. Twigg: George sold it for five? G. Totman: I sold it for 80. M. Herzing: We even looked into trying to subdivide that lot to try to get part of it, and the people wanted nothing to discuss about it at all . 18 ' Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 G. Totman : You can't deal with them. Too bad you couldn't get the house next door -- the Fields' . M. Herzing: Which is on the market. G. Totman: Of course you'd have to tear that down too . M. Herzing: Right. At that point I don't know if that becomes a feasible investment. It is a thought in our minds. There's no question. G. Totman: If you had just that little extra there for the parking, and I'm sure Ward -- here you're right on the corner. That is like a triangle . And the triangle comes right to where you stop for that corner. It's a perfect spot. The spot that he talked about earlier would be the better place . That was for sale for about four or five years before they bought it, and they almost had to put that up for taxes. Too bad you weren't around then. M. Herzing: I'd love to get diesel into that spot, but there's just not enough room. G. Totman : I don't think there's any rules saying -- I thought at first, well, geez, right across from the school and blah, blah , blah , blah . But it's not really going to create any extra traffic because the traffic's already there anyway. And the people are going to be slowing down to go in there, not speeding up to get out of there . I don't think we would be in trouble with it because the school is there . So 1 think what he's looking for tonight is a conceptual approval of his plan , his idea. He's looking to see that if he can get all the other tentative approvals, will he come up with a stumbling block with the Planning Board, Correct? V. Rankin: I say go ahead . I think it's great . G. Totman: I think from listening to us tonight, you've got your own answer. M. Herzing: Right, And I will take the next step with -- G. Totman: The reason I say it that way is I don't think we can make any formal commitments until we know more - - M. Herzing: Until you have more . Sure , sure. G. Totman : You live in Danby? M. Herzing: We live in Ithaca right by the college on Coddington Road . Anything else I can answer? G. Totman: I don't think we can do anything until we get more -- do we schedule you for the next meeting or not? You call me and let me know and I can schedule you for either October or November. M. Herzing: I ,just want to give the Health Department the rough sketch we have and say, "Is it possible?" G. Totman: When you get that, why don't you call me and we'll talk and see what you've got. M. Herzing: If I get somewhat of an okay from the Health Department, then I'll get an engineer's plan and drawings and all that for you . It's not a problem. G. Totman: What we're interested in -- yes, we're interested in the interior -- as far as our approvals are concerned -- we're interested in is it legal with the book we've got here for a Site Plan Review that we have to do. And does it fall within the scope -- the rest of it falls within the Building Inspector - the Fire Code. M. Herzing: Is there any need for a public hearing on this? 19 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 21 September 1995 G. Totman : Yes. There would be. We definitely -- if it was out in the country and you didn't have any neighbors right close -- that's our prerogative to hold a public hearing. Is there a motion to adjourn? V. Rankin: I make a motion to adjourn . G. Twigg: I second. The meeting was adjourned at 9950 p.m . Respectfully submitted, Joan E . Fitch Recording Secretary 20