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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995-05-18 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Thursday, 18 May 1995 Board Members (*present) Others Present * George Totman , Chairman Sam Rose *Monica Carey Joan E. Fitch , Recording Secretary Sheldon Clark Jeff Lewis *Verl Rankin *George VanSlyke *Cecil Twigg The meeting was called to order at 8 :09 p.m, by Chairman Totman. G. Totman: Let's call the meeting to order. Does anyone have any questions about the minutes of the last meeting? Would someone like to make a motion to approve them as presented? G. VanSlyke : I make a motion we approve them. V. Rankin: I second it. G. Totman: No changes? All in favor? (All were in favor.) They are accepted as presented . We have a visitor. As long as there's nobody else here , we'll take Mr. Rose , Sam, I don't know why you are here , so do you want to state your business? S. Rose: I think I have a quick question for you regarding the state of the property on Chipman's Corners Road, G. Totman: What's the tax map number? You don't know what page number it is? S. Rose: 221 maybe -- does that mean anything or not? It's on the corner of Old Stage Road out onto Route 38 if that helps you any. G. Totman: Old Stage Road? S. Rose: Yes, G. Totman: This is Old Stage Road right here . S. Rose: Where's 38? G. Totman: Right down here . S. Rose: Okay. Chipman's Corners. This is a lot different than I've got. This is taken right off an old tax map. G. Totman: Which one you talking about - - this one right here? S. Rose: This parcel here . Here it is. This is my property right here . G. Totman: We're on Map 16- 1 -33 , S. Rose: As you people probably know, Mr. Steger Is farm is right here . . . G. Totman: That's on 32 . Groton Town Planning Board Meeting May 18, 1995 S. Rose: Right. And he owns, of course, on the other side of the road. Right now he's got another 45 acres as assessed. What is going to happen, and then I 'll pose my question, he has on this side of the road probably 60 acres. G. Totman: On the south side . S. Rose: Right. He has a 12 -acre field here which he's keeping and then right here his brother has a house which they want to keep , approximately an acre and a half. I can show you better on this one now, if you can follow it. G. VanSlyke : You're talking about where Butch lives? S. Rose: Exactly. This is my land over on Old Stage Road, 5 . 5 acres. I talked to Russ Klinger, and he says if 4 buy the land , the best thing to do is just make it all one parcel, giving it my tax map number, taking it away from Steger's. The question is -- I would be buying everything, approximately 53 acres, to add to my 5 acres . This down in here that swings all the way around like this is nothing but swamp and creekland and . . . . G. Totman: That's on the very south part of that land. M. Carey: That's where it dips down in? S. Rose: Right. The creek flows through there and it's very briary and what have you . Here is a 22 -acre field that they farm right straight across the road from their house, and here's a 12 -acre field, kitty-corner from their house . This one they are keeping, and they are going to keep where Butch 's house is. The first question is -- they are going to keep 350 feet of road frontage -- that's no problem. This 185 feet of depth is from the shoulder of the road, not from the center of the road, so it would be over 200 feet from the center. Is that enough? Or does anybody know? Or who do I ask? G. Totman: For what you're buying? S. Rose: For depth . No, this is to go with Butch 's house. In other words, they want to keep this. G. Totman: You have 350 foot of road frontage and a depth of 185 feet from the right-of-way. Co Twigg: How many acres is that? S. Rose: 1 .4 is what they said to me. M. Carey: So that's enough. C. Twigg: That's enough then. S. Rose: So in light of that, that brings us to a question . The remaining land, not counting the 12 acres and not counting this -- everything on that side of Chipman 's Corners will be sold to me , being removed from the Steger farm. It's going to be added to my tax map number, so it's still one tax map number. If we do that, we probably don't need a subdivision? V. Rankin : All we 're doing is giving him a boundary change. G. Totman: The way I understand it, and correct me if I 'm wrong, our present ordinance reads that a person can sell one lot out of a parcel of land without coming to the Planning Board and asking for a subdivision . In this particular case , they are selling one lot, but the person who' s buying it is incorporating it into his lot which is right next door. We 're not adding a new tax map number, we're not adding any more parcels of land to the Town of Groton , and the lots remaining will be in accordance with the Land Use Ordinance we have . I would consider it a boundary change . C. Twigg: It isn't a subdivision . 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting May 18, 1995 G. Totman: No. That's what I said . We're not creating any new lots because Sam, when he buys that land, is going to have his deed changed to incorporate that into his deed now, so they will still have the same tax map numbers we had before, no new lots . They are just making one lot smaller and one lot bigger. C. Twflgg: Why do we have to call it anything? G. Totman: He doesn't know for sure, and Carol didn't know for sure. . . . C. Twigg: They are selling one lot, and they don't have to come to the Planning Board for that. G. Totman: That's right. C. Twigg: So we don't have to call it anything. G. Totman: Not really. S. Rose: My second question you will have to . G. Totman: It's a boundary change, not a subdivision. Okay? M. Carey: So you have to clarify that. G. Totman: So for future purposes, he's not subdividing his land . It's on record that he made a boundary change. So down the road, if they want to come in and do something, he hasn't already -- he's got it on record that there was not a subdivision , it was a boundary change. C. Twigg: So he could sell another lot without coming to us . S. Rose: He's going to hold the paper for ten years, so I'm not going to be doing anything with it for ten years. And then when you want to do more than one lot in any length of time then you have to apply for a permission. What is the length of time? Seven years, or is there a time frame? M. Carey: Three , G. Totman: Three years. S. Rose: The second question might be a little more ticklish . Adolph ' s (Butch 's) house currently is owned by Steger Brothers. They are considering making it owned by him and giving him his own tax map number. Doing everything else the same . What if he wants his own tax map number - - now are we talking a subdivision? CO Twiw, No. If. . . . G. Totman: That's why we said we want to make this a boundary change . C. Twigg: If you had a boundary change, it'd be nothing. And if they change the name on that lot. . . . G. Totman: They are creating a new lot because they'd be creating a new tax map number for that house . I would call that the one lot. Because this is a boundary change. Does that make sense? S. Rose: Yes. It does to me. I think that's all I needed. C. Twigg: But I don't see why we have to call it. . . . G. Totman: Technically we don't, Cecil . But if I were him, I'd be doing the same thing he's doing. And he's actually doing it -- the question he 's asking is not really for himself, as I understand it. It's for the Steger Brothers. 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting May 18, 1995 S. Rose: That's correct. I'm representing them basically. I guess that was it and now I can get out of your hair. G. Totman: As long as the lot that's remaining is a legal lot. S. Rose: What is a legal lot? G. Totman: A legal lot is one acre of land with 200 feet of road frontage . . . S. Rose: I thought it was 150 it was changed to. G. Totman: Well we did, which has been legally passed to be 150 feet. V. Rankin : By the time he gets ready to do this, it will be 150 foot. G. Totman: It was passed by the Town Board and if they sent it in the way they were supposed to, it's passed because the time is up -- according to the rules as I understand it. S. Rose: Is there a minimum depth? G. Totman: He's supposed to be so far off the road, but that house is already there. S. Rose: No , I'm just asking basically. . . . C. Twigg: You 've got to have a 150-foot circle for your septic tank for the Health Department. S. Rose: So you're going to have to be at least 250 feet deep by the time you bring your house back some . G. Totman: He has a septic system already there. S. Rose: I realize that. I was just asking for future reference . G. Totman: You've got to have at least an acre of land, at least 150 feet of road frontage . S. Rose: Is there any minimum depth? I guess that's my question. G. Totman: The minimum depth would depend on your perc tests for your septic system for the Health Department . Normally what they require is 150-foot of radius of usable land and a back-up system . S. Rose: I think that's all I needed, so I 'll get out of your hair. Thank you for your time and seeing me without an appointment. Have a nice night. G. Totman: Carol called me about a week or so ago and she said that Keith DeGear asked a question about his land (Tax Map # 32 -- 1 -29 . 4) and she explained it a little bit over the phone to me . It was a question whether it was a boundary change or what we would call it. From what she explained, as I recall it, it definitely was just a boundary change . So she said well , let me put it on the agenda. I said , yes, go ahead, because there wasn't anything else to put on the agenda. But there's nothing here tonight to show us what we're talking about. And I 'm not exactly sure what we're talking about. Maybe Cecil would know more about it -- he's more familiar with the land up there than I am . If you look at this map , Cecil. . . . C. Twigg: It's on the corner of Pleasant Valley . . . . V. Rankin: I know where it is . I've traveled that road for the last hundred years. G. Totman: It's these lots right here . V. Rankin: Yes. What about them? 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting May 18, 1995 G. Totman: I really don't know, Verl . V. Rankin: The house is on this side . . . . G. Totman: Apparently he wants to make one lot bigger than it is now. I really believe he wants to sell some land to this guy here and make that lot bigger. And that little lot there doesn't really have a number on it right now. It's all a part of this 32- 1 -29. 4 . V. Rankin : Is this part of it here , too? What's this little thing out here? G. Totman: That there goes with this land over here . V. Rankin: Well, don't this go with this land over here, too, or not? G. Totman: No . That's a separate tax map number. V. Rankin: Okay. But he owns the whole works? G. Totman: Yes . I think what he wants to do is this little corner that's on Pleasant Valley Road on the west side where it. . . . V. Rankin: He generally parks his trucks over there . G. Totman: As far as I 'm concerned, that would be nothing but a boundary change . Co Twigg: There's nothing on that corner. G. Totman: It sounded like when she talked to me . . . . if everybody agrees, I 'll convey that message. . . C. Twigg: It's before my time . G. Totman: If everybody agrees, I 'll convey that message . . . V. Rankin: Use to be a barn there once upon a time . . . . G. Totman: If everybody agrees, I 'll convey that message . Anybody got anything else to bring before the Board? M. Carey: Just that we went to the Town Board meeting and things went pretty good and they passed the ordinance . G. Totman: They did the SEAR and then they passed the ordinance . Co Twigg: That SEAR was the stupidest -- I 'll tell you . They could get in trouble with that thing . The questions had nothing to do with what we were doing. I think it was an unnecessary . , . 1 . 1 think somebody was just making work for themselves. V. Rankin: The lawyer said they had to do it that way. C. Twigg: I think he interpreted it that way so he got another night's pay. G. Totman: The way I understand it, Cecil, from the lawyer's standpoint, he indicated -- from what I heard from the meeting -- that it really wasn't necessary to do it, but he was doing it just to be safe. CO Twigg: But the questions did not pertain to what we were doing, and I don't think they could answer them yes and no . . G. Totman: The way I look at it, by law you have to do a SEQR on any administrative action. But as far as I was concerned, and the one's I 've seen done in the circles I travel in, are that since it didn't have any impact at all, it could have been done on a Short Form SEAR just like we do it. Like I said at the 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting May 18, 1995 meeting before, the Solid Waste Disposal down on Commercial Avenue in Ithaca, was done on a Short Form SEAR like we normally use . In fact, I 've got a copy of it with me which I carry just to prove my point. Nevertheless, I think we should look at it this way -- it was done, we've got it passed , it's been sent In and, as I understand it, once it's sent in to the Attorney General, it's official. That makes it legal. I think you have to wait five days or ten days, but that was last month that was done . So as far as I 'm concerned, George can start working with . . . . V. Rankin: No. It was sent in this month . This is May. G. Totman: May 8th it was. Today is the 18th and the meeting was on the 8th . Ten days have gone by, so for all practical purposes it's now in effect. Co Twice: I think the lawyer said at least four weeks and not more than what, two months? J. Fitch: He said he believed it took 20 days, and it might take three weeks, but don't hold him to it. He also said he would be notifying George Senter, the Code Enforcement Officer, when he was supposed to use the new Land Use and Development Code and Zoning Map . I just did the minutes today, so they are fresh in my mind . V. Rankin: There . That solves that problem . G. Totman: Anyway, it's done and it's over with . We've accomplished what our charge was from the Town Board . It might have taken us two years to do it , but we did it. And we had a lot of good discussions. Very honestly, I don't have anything else to bring before the Board . V. Rankin: I move we adjourn . G. VanSlyke : Second . G. Totman: I don ' t know if you people have any copies of the Zoning Map that's going to be published with the ordinance - - I 'll give you copies of it. This is the official map . Since the last meeting, we went over the map we had and there weren't any substantial changes . There were a few roads left out. Just for example , Church Street in McLean wasn't on there, and Stevens Road in McLean where you see it's on there twice now where it turns the corner and goes up by the golf course , that was on there, but the part that comes down into McLean around the corner wasn't there and I had them add that in. And that Fuller Road up in the upper right-hand corner wasn't on there and we added that in. That's the only changes made in it. Just correcting to make sure all the roads were on there . What's the matter, George? G. VanSlyke : I didn't realize Fuller Road came back into the Town . G. Totman: I never did either. It's a private drive, really. G. VanSlyke : That's where Murdock lives. G. Totman: It's a private drive, but it comes off from another road from Cortland County and it's listed on all the other maps as a road and Corny takes care of it. G. VanSlyke : Corny takes care of that little jog? G. Totman: That's what I was told . So it had to be in there . They are in the Town of Groton and they live on Fuller Road . All I 'm telling you is what I was told by the Town Clerk and Corny. G. VanSlyke : Good god. So he has to go into Cortland County to drive back up to plow a little piece of road back -- you've got to be kidding me . He might's well pull in my driveway and plow me out, then. V. Rankin: You're not on the official map, though . G. VanSlyke : I 'm over here -- right there . They don't even have the one up off Sheldon's that goes up to Eldred's. They plow that and that road's not on here. 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting May 18, 1995 G. Totman: What's that? Whereabouts is it? G. VanSlyke : Before you get to Sheldon's, right in here. There's a little road that goes up in . . . . V. Rankin: And that's still a Town road . G. VanSlyke : It is a Town road, and they plow it. Here's Sheldon's and coming back there's a little jog that goes to Eldred's house back up in here. G. Totman: Like right there? C. Twigg: Probably hooked onto the Fuller Road at one time . V. Rankin: Yes, it did . It went right around through the woods. We used to plow the Fuller Road. G. Totman: I 'll check on that . This is all on computer now. G. VanSlyke : It was a dirt road then. V. Rankin : Yes, Yes. Many years ago. G. Totman: If what you're saying is true, George , that road should have a name on it and tomorrow I'll get with them. Because with this new mapping system in the County, all roads have to. . . . . . G. VanSlyke : On Fuller Road, Murdock is still in Cortland County, I think. But then there's a house where Gladys Fuller's family used to live way back up in here. V. Rankin: When I was on the Town Board, we always went up in there on road inspections. G. VanSlyke : When we rode snowmobiles back in there, it was like a dead-end road. G. Totman: The tax map does not show it. G. VanSlyke : Yes it does. Right here it is. G. Totman: Oh, it's back here. V. Rankin: See, it came right around through here . . . G. VanSlyke : There's Fuller Road. There 's the tip of Fuller Road . Here's that little one that goes up to Eldred's. G. Totman: That's a landlocked piece of property back in there and I thought that was a private drive . CO Twigg: That's not landlocked . There's a road there to it. G. VanSlyke : There's a road to it and they plow it. G. Totman: They do plow it? V. Rankin: Yes. They've got stuck on that road. G. Totman: If that's the case, then there should be a name on that road . They can bring the map up _ on the computer screen and change it. We want to make sure they are all right because there will be a big Town map put in the room here. V. Rankin: Seems like Corny told me once they don't do Fuller Road anymore . They turned it over to Cortland County . 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting May 18, 1995 G. VanSlyke : I 'll bet they did because in order for them to get to it, they'd have to go into Cortland County and plow up past Murdock to get up in there. G. Totman: Just for your information, there was a seminar today for local government that I went to at Houghton College out in the western part of the State , about 160 miles from here . It was a good session, sort of a mini session like you have in New York City, only it was a one-day thing. It was on more than just planning, it was on fundamentals of planning and zoning, the zoning board of appeals, on SEAR, but they also had the CHIPS program and a thing for notary public , and rural economic community development. It was a good program. It was a one-day thing way out there so I didn't encourage all of you to take your time off for something like that when the Town pays for one a year. We normally go to the one in New York or the Catskills. But I did go and I just thought I 'd let you know. V. Rankin: How about up here on Sovocool Hill? I wonder -if that guy's got a permit . We had trouble with him a few years ago on the body shop . G. Totman: Oh, you mean Hendricks? V. Rankin: Hendricks. He's taken the old trailer out of there and is going to put something else in there . M. Carey: Oh , really? G. Totman: Gary, Gary Hendricks you're talking about. Is he still running his body shop up there? V. Rankin: I don't know. C. Twlgg: Don't know as he ever did . There was not a lot of activity around there. V. Rankin: I don't think he ever did a lot. But evidently, they are putting something back in there and I don't suppose , since the lot's so small, that you could put anything on it. So give that word to Senter. They are going to pour a pad there . G. Totman: I'll try to remember to ask him tomorrow. V. Rankin: They've got the forms up and the wire in for the pad . Probably going to put a double wide in there I imagine . G. Totman: Question. Has anybody had any comments or any questions from the general public about the change in the Zoning Ordinance or anything? Co Twlgg: What's that lady's name over there -- that Clinton Cornell. Not Clint - - Jerry. G. Totman: Marie? C. Twigg: Marie . She called and asked about it because she's got a piece of land over there that's got a hundred foot road frontage, or 75, or 50, It's got an oddball road frontage , but I guess the way she talked there's several acres down in the back that she couldn't build on before or do anything with . G. VanSlyke : They were in here before on that, weren't they? G. Totman: Yes. His son was thinking about. . . . . M. Carey: It's a different one . They came in and wanted to put a trailer up in back for the son or something. There wasn't enough frontage for it. I think he' s got a right-of-way, but I think with the way the ordinance was. . . . C. Twigg: they couldn't build on it. Now with a flag lot they can utilize it. M. Carey: I had a couple of people at work ask me about it. 8 • Groton Town Planning Board Meeting May 18, 1995 G. Totman: Just for information purposes, the way I understand this flag lot, in a case like that a flag lot is 20, 30, 40 feet where you can build out back, . . At's tax map #39 . 1 -25 . Point 22 is her land and the land in question is this one here . G. VanSlyke : That sucker's landlocked . M. Carey: But weren't they going to take some off their land . . . . G. VanSlyke : They were going to give him a hundred foot I thought to get access to it. G. Totman: They had 580 feet and were going to give him some in here , but that wouldn't have been enough under the present ordinance to get back to it. Now he can have a flag lot and get back in there and build a house. The boy's name was Tim Cornell who wanted to build back in there . That was three or four years ago. G. VanSlyke : I think they sold off a bunch down through there and that's what caused it . I don't think that was grandfathered . G. Totman: Is there anything else you want to bring up for this Board meeting? V. Rankin: I move we adjourn . G. VanSlyke : I second it. The meeting was adjourned at 8:42 p.m. Respectfully submitted , Joan E. Fitch Recording Secretary 9