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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995-03-09 l JOINT PUBLIC HEARING " TOWN OF GROTON TOWN BOARD & PLANNING BOA Thursday, 9 March 1995 Town Board Members (*present) Planning Board Members (*present) *Teresa Robinson , Supervisor * George Totman , Chairman George VanBenschoten * Monica Carey *Ellard Sovocool * Sheldon Clark *Carl Haynes *Jeff Lewis Donald Cummings Verl Rankin Others Present *George VanSlyke Cecil Twigg Francis Casullo , Town Attorney George Senter Sr. , Town Code Enforcement Official Lyle Raymond , Town Zoning Board of Appeals Chair Colleen Pierson, Town Clerk Tracey Smith , Tompkins Co . Planning Board Circuit Rider Other Interested Parties (As Attached Hereto) The Public Hearing was called to order at 8*03 p.m . by Supervisor Robinson. Note: The purpose of the joint Public Hearing was to allow any resident of the Town of Groton to be heard regarding the adoption of a Local Law of the Town of Groton for the year 1995 which would replace Local Law #3 for the year 1990, also known as the Town of Groton Land Use & Development Code. This information was setforth and duly published in a 'Notice of Public Hearing" dated February 15, 1995. This notice was not read into the record for this meeting, but is on file in the Town Clerks Office. . T. Robinson: I want to welcome you all here tonight. Thank you for coming out . It 's been a miserable night. Thank you for coming. Before we, get started , I ' d like to thank the Planning Board and their members for their long and dedicated time to putting this together. And I also want to thank you for whatever comments you are going to make tonight. I know the Board has worked hard and hopefully we are all going to agree on this within a short time and have it passed . George is going to moderate it, so we'll go from there . G.. Totman: Thanks, Teresa. Just briefly, for those of you who read the draft, it's a very difficult thing when you look at something you haven't worked with . When you read it now, you think it's all brand new, but what it really is is a simplified form of what we 've been working with for the last ten years . What started this whole thing off was there were some flaws we found in the regular ordinance and different things that we needed to bring to the Town Board 's attention over the last few years to change to make it more workable . There were things we found that -- unnecessary things that would have to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals that really shouldn't have had to go there . So we suggested some changes to the Town Board to make it more user-friendly. About two years ago , the Town Board decided that instead of making those changes - - and the Town Board 's here tonight so if I 'm wrong they can correct me - - so instead of making those changes one by one , they charged the Planning Board with going through the whole ordinance and re- doing it, re-writing it so it would meet the modern times today. So what we did was start from scratch . We did a new Comprehensive Plan and had public hearings on that. That was accepted by the Town Board - - I think it was last May. And from there we started , and the Planning Board , every Thursday night for the past year - - and we actually rewrote the whole ordinance . So as you 're looking at it now , it's what we call a more " user- friendly" simplified form of what we had before . What I 'm going to do is introduce Tracey Smith to you from the County Planning Department . We contracted with the County's Circuit Rider Program to have her sit in on all our meetings and give us legal direction as far as the legalities of what we were doing - - more professional . And as we did it each night, she took it back and typed it up for us and put it in the proper Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 documented form . From that, she 's going to give you a synopsis of what the major changes were that we put into it. And then I 'll take questions from the people afterwards . Tracey. . . T. Smith: Thanks . I 'm just going to go through the Ordinance article by article so you can follow along a little bit if you want to . And then I 'll go over and show you what changes we made on the Zoning Map . The first article is mostly introductory information . We went through each one and made sure they were okay. We added a few definitions here and there and we also put in a few charts and diagrams so the definitions for lots and yards would be a little more clear. Article lI is the Subdivision Regulations . One of the big things we added in this section was allowing people to create flag lots on their property . And this would allow people who have interior lots that are inaccessible to maybe get a little piece of land connected to a public road so they could make use of the lot. Related to that, the Planning Board was given the power to reduce frontage requirements which would be necessary for a flag lot because you just have a teeny piece coming down and touching the road . Sometimes also on a cul - de -sac you have the wedge -shaped lots in a subdivision where it wouldn ' t make a whole lot of sense to have a whole 100 feet of frontage along the curved cul- de -sac . And the last thing we did in the subdivision section was to make the highway design more generic and refer it to the highway specifications . G. Totman: To current highway specifications . T. Smith: Right . The next article is the Land Use Regulations . The big thing we added in this section was allowing ECHO units . ECHO is Elder Cottage Housing Opportunity , It's a small house that can be put on the property of a relative so an older person can live independently, but have someone nearby in case they needed help or something. The other thing we did was change the Land Use Chart, Section 341 , The last time it was little symbols and things telling you what was allowed and what wasn 't allowed . We tried to clear that up by using just a few symbols - - ones that made a little more sense . The last thing we changed in that section were the frontage requirements - - the regulations require certain frontages - - you still need an acre lot because of the Health Department requirements, but it can be longer and thinner instead of using up so much frontage for one lot . The last article contains all the administrative procedures . It didn 't really change a lot here , but it was reorganized a little bit to eliminate shuffling back and forth between the pages . We made sure everything was up to the New York State requirements . The Zoning Map in the third section - - used to be a low density district over here . The other big thing is we got rid of the industrial area here and changed it to the medium density two district. We also made the industrial district on 38 a little longer, and we added some medium density one districts here . The last thing we did on the map was expand the low density district in Peruville . Are there any questions or comments? G. Totman: Like I said , if you 've never really worked with the ordinance - - we call it a Land Use Ordinance , but it 's basically a zoning ordinance , and most people have very distasteful feelings - - I should not say most people , but a lot of people -- about zoning ordinances, rules, and regulations . But bear in mind that the Town of Groton has had one in effect now since 1972 . And I don' t think there 's anything in our ordinance where we made it stricter than it was before . What we 've tried to do is make it simpler than and more understandable for people than what it was . When you 're looking at the maps, like that map up there, it might be the first time you 've seen the ordinance map . If you have any questions, we're really going to try to answer them, so don 't be afraid to ask a question . A. Grant: I wanted to know what the changes were, that's what I was after. G. Totman: The changes? A. Grant: Yes. What you're trying to do to us -- what we can 't do and what we can do. G. Totman: It 's like I said in the beginning , is that everything we 've changed hopefully we 've changed it to make it easier to do things than harder than . Like , for example, the frontage of your lots up to this point have to be 200 feet. We 're suggesting cutting it back to 150 feet, still maintaining the requirement for an acre of land , but making better use of the land - - not requiring people to buy 200 feet. It's expensive having to buy 200 feet of road frontage nowadays -- one of the reasons it was put in at 200 feet back in the late 60s and early 70s was because at that time the Health Department required 200-foot diameter for septic systems. A few years back they changed it back to 150 feet . But a lot of the planning boards and people making ordinances like we did back then thought that because the Health 2 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 Department required 200 feet in diameter, that meant 200 feet of road frontage . It really didn 't . The Health Department really didn't care how much road frontage you had , as long as you had enough land to take care of the thing, so we lessened that impact on people by suggesting we have 150 feet . In fact, there isn 't another town in Tompkins County that requires over 150 feet . T. Robinson: I 'm sorry, there is. G. Totman: There is? Who? T. Robinson: Ulysses . G. Totman: They require more than 150 feet? T. Robinson: No . They require 200 feet. G. Totman: That's what I said . They really do? They must have done it just recently then . The last I Imew there wasn't, but . . . . Do you have anything in particular (speaking to Mr. Grant)? A. Grant: Just what kind of restrictions you are putting on us . I think the majority of your people want to find out the same thing . G. Totman: What do you have specific? We have worked on this thing for the past two years to make it simpler and not add to . A. Grant: Well , you never did before . That's what we 're looking at now, see? You was always going the other way. G. Totman: I guess what I 'm saying is - - do you know a particular instance the way it was? And let us show it to you the way it is now and see if isn't better. A. Grant: Well, I don't know. I haven 't seen it, so . . . . . G. Totman: Okay . But I guess you ' ll have to take me at my word on that . Everybody that's been working on it, and we 've met with the Town Board on it -- we've had three separate meetings with the Town Board , The Town Board has to answer to you people. We don't. We 're appointed . But they have to feel comfortable with it or they wouldn 't be co-sponsoring this meeting with us . In going over it, I don 't think there 's anything we've made more restrictive . Does anybody know of anything? F. Hall: George , I 'm a little hard of hearing. When the young lady here was trying to tell us what was going on with the map , and facing the map , I didn't get all the details, the changes that were being made . Could she or you explain it again for me, please? What's going on on that map? G. Totman: Go ahead Tracey. F. Hall: That's 222 , right? G. Totman: That's 222 and we extended it out a little bit farther. There are some businesses out there now. We changed the name of that district whereby you can have residential units in there now if you want to, and you couldn't_ before . Okay? . F. HaMo Okay. G. Totman: We added a little bit of the same type right here - - we changed that . This is from the school out Peruville Road , P. Palmer: Would you explain the difference between the M1 and the M2? G. Totman: The M1 is like a commercial district - - like , for example , in the center of McLean . You 're allowed commercial and a mix of commercial and residential . That area we 're calling M2 now was strictly industrial . You couldn ' t have any mix of private dwellings in there . We changed this so 3 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 you could allow residentials only by larger lots than M 1 . M2 had larger lots for residential than M 1 does. B. Talbot: How large are the lots? G. Totmane Five acres . F. Hall: On 38 , south of the Village? G. Totman: North , F. Hall: By the Catholic church? T. Robinson: Lewbro's -- down by you . A. Grant: You 're commercializing that? G. Totman: That has been. A. Grant: Okay. That's what we want to know. See , those are the things we want to find out here. G. Totman: There was housing there when they changed it to allow for Lewbro's to go out there . E. Moran : They just had one new one just put up there . That means they have to get a waiver to put a house in that area? G. Totman: This is only on one side of the road out there . E. Moran: That's the right side . A fellow by the name of Lewis just put a house up there . G. Totman: Is that in this district, George? G. Senter It's in the old zoning -- he fell in the low zone . That's the way we interpreted that. G. Totman: Is that where this black line is? G. Senter. It is now, yes. With the new zoning, he couldn 't do it because he 'd be in industrial. He just got in before this ordinance . A. Grant: On that side you're not supposed to build any more houses? G. Totman: On the right-hand side going out. If you 're going to have a business, you don' t want to encourage residentials because they don 't mix. If you want to start, like Lewbro' s out there - - you 'll encourage those type of activities . You don't also want to encourage somebody to build a house up there that's going to complain about their noise and odor and that sort of stuff. Anybody else got any questions? C. Pierson: Why did you do away with the low district in West Groton and add to Peruville and McLean? G. Totman: My recollection , Colleen , was that it' s been in for 20 years and there hasn ' t been any activity - - it's a little bit like what we looked at up on Route 222 -- up there it was strictly commercial . And there hasn't really been anything new in the last 20 years . We looked at it that way - - we really didn 't see the need for it. C. Pierson: So by being in agricultural , they can have cattle , horses, whatever they want, right in your door yard? A. Grant: There's a farm up there that wasn't there 20 years ago . 4 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 G. Totman: We 're talking about commercial . A,. Grant: You 're going commercial all the way to the Salt Road , right? E. Moran: Now what page in here does it tell what . . . . C. Pierson: I don't think I got an answer to my question . T. Smith: There is a definition section in front. E. Moran: When I want to read what M1 means , M1 district, where do I find it in here? Co Twigg: Look on page 57 , G. Totman: To answer her question , you 've got to look at the old map . G. VanSlyke : I got it, George . There was up here -- it was low. West Groton was low density . G. Totman: I really don ' t recall , to answer your question . What we talked about was areas where there wasn 't any real growth over the last 20 years, and we said why should we have something that's apparently not what the people want. C. Pierson: What would they want other than residential - - as close as the houses are? G. Totman: Between low and agricultural there isn't an awful lot of difference . C . Pierson: Other than you can have any kind of business. G. Totman: That's true , too. Does the Board recall? I really don't. C. Pierson: It could be quite noisy, too . G. Totman: I 've got to consult with my Board members, really . C. Twigg. I don 't remember it being discussed and when I looked at the map I was going to ask about it. Then I got to thinking it really doesn 't make too much difference , I don 't think, because the houses that are there are not affected . C. Pierson: Would you like to have another dog kennel with 150 dogs right next door to you? CO Twigg. I don't know. That one that's there doesn't seem to bother much . C. Pierson: I 've had a lot of complaints about it. And it's winter. Wait until summer. Co Tvdwe I don 't know how far out. There's a farm right there across the road from that. C. Pierson: They're borderline . Right now it's residential and agricultural . I think it passes right through their property. And the Appeals Board determined it was in the ag zone so they could have the kennel . C. TWIWO So they were outside of what was designated as the Village . C. Pierson: Half and half their property was. C. Twigg: But they were far enough out so they got in the ag zone . . . C. Pierson: Which do you take? The more stringent or the lesser of the requirements? C. Twigg: I don 't know. That was up to somebody else to make that decision . 5 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 C. Pierson: ZBA. The decision 's already made . G. Totman: Well , Colleen . . , C. Pierson: You 're not going to be able to tell me why it's not there, huh? G. Totman: I don ' t think I can tell you offhand right now why that was pulled off for any particular reason . C. TwiWg: I don't remember it being discussed . G. Totman: Do you remember anything? Why did we get rid of it? T. Smith: I just remember that it was mentioned that hardly anything happens there so it was decided to go with the least restrictive . M. Carey: That's what I remember also . C. egg: I don 't remember what we said , but when I saw it wasn' t there , I couldn 't see any big problem with it. G. Totman: The goal of the whole thing was to try to keep some semblance of land use control , but E eliminate as much as we could without opening it up to anything . We had about three different nights that we worked on putting the different zones in , and I really can't remember, Colleen , why we came up with that particular - - I know we expanded some and some of them we cut back on -- like over on the Cortland-McLean Road we changed . And I think. . . . C. Pierson: Pleasant Valley Road in Peruville went with low intensity. G. Totman: If we kept it in there and you look at the rest of the ordinance , I think you 'll find that like what you 're talking about with the dogs will require Site Plan Review. I 'm just talking about the kennels . C. Pierson: How about any business in that area, is that Site Plan Review? M. Carey: What kind of business? G. Totman: There are different kinds of businesses . Pretty near all commercial businesses will require Site Plan Review. C. Pierson: So they are all going through you anyway? In a rural ag area too . M. Carey: Right, G. Totman: It's on page 53 . The reason for that Site Plan Review is the difference in the different kinds of businesses. Like if you 're going to -- and even though it's way out in the country - - there could be somebody buy a lot next door and we don 't want to ruin the value of the lot by allowing a body and fender shop or something that's going to make a lot of noise at night. Although it's allowed in that area, we do it through Site Plan Review so that we can control the hours of operation and how many vehicles they can have sitting out so they don' t ruin the aesthetics of the neighborhood . When we do have a problem with them , we can renegotiate them . We have them stop any outside noise that can be heard so many feet away after 6 o'clock at night, or can ' t start up before 7 in the morning. So even though they 're allowed , there are some restrictions on them . E. Moran: I noticed that going out 38 to the end of the Village line , the next 2000 feet is set up as Mi . What would be the decision to do that? What would be the basis? G. Totman: Well , there 's already businesses out through there and I know you live there , but looking at the long range plan , of where do you want to encourage some business around the Town of Groton . Obviously , most of it is occurring around the Village , and so .the thought was to - - you can ' t 6 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 encourage it over on Cobb Street because nobody wants to go there . You do it where it' s possible to sometimes connect into water or sewer, and you try to encourage business to go in that direction. E. Moran : Is the Village in line with this? Are they going to extend the sewer up . . . . G. Totman: No , I didn 't say that. I said that it's a possibility later on to use that and if somebody does come along that wants to start a business, we 're allowing it there so they don 't have to come in and ask for a zoning variance in order to start a business . It's there already, so then they can .negotiate with the Village if they want to start a business . E. Moran : But the first part of your M2 or Ml district, . . the houses just started going in . You 've got two going up there now. R Walpole: That ' s in the Village . E. Moran: Oh , no. That's outside of the Village . M Walpole: The Village line goes to the old Portzline . . . . E. Moran: Oh no it doesn 't. Don't give me that . M Walpole: Pull the map , Teresa, would you please and show him where the property lines are out there . E. Moran: When was it changed? R. Walpole. It's been that way since the thirties. E. Moran : I 'd hate to have to bet a ten dollar bill. G. Totman: Wait a minute , Ed . George , you are the zoning officer for the Town and the Village . G. Senter. Yes, G. Totman: Are those new houses in the Town or in the Village? G. Senter. Village , G. Totman: Okay. E. Moran: When was it changed . G. Senter. It's always been that way since I 've. . . . G. Totmam Anybody else? Roger. R. Gleason: As I look on page 42 - -- the clear vision area. If you have a field on the corner - - and grow corn , it would be out of there within a year so that wouldn' t apply. There can be problems with corn . G. Totman: This is referring corner lots so you 're not obstructing the view of traffic . R. Gleason. If I had a 10-acre field , there wouldn 't necessarily be a lot on the corner. C. TwlWg: That's a lot . G. Totman: What we 're saying is on that particular corner, when you 're driving up with a car, we don't want somebody to do something that's going to block the view to make it unsafe . R. Gleason: That' s what I wanted a clarification on . 7 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 G. Totman: Whether it' s a one- acre lot or a ten -acre lot . What we 're looking at is the safety of the corner . R. Gleason: I don't want to obstruct anybody's view. G. Totman: I 'm sure you don 't. R. Gleason: On the other hand, I didn' t want to have some hassle . G. Totman: The only purpose for this is safety . Another thing is , it makes it easier on the person who the Town employs for their code enforcement officer or zoning officer or whatever, and it also protects the Town later on if there 's some question on safety things or there 's been an accident there . The first thing they look for is what caused it and who can they sue . R. Gleason: You don 't think about it when you plant it . But all of a sudden the com 's eight- foot tall. It's gone within a year so maybe it doesn 't apply, but on the other hand . . . . G. Totman: Cecil , do you have a question? It says about 10 feet. You 're usually back ten feet from the corner anyway, aren ' t you? C. Twigg: If you read the definition of a lot here , it doesn't apply. It says that an area of land and single ownership of record . Lot refers exclusively to development lot unless indicated otherwise . So that wouldn ' t apply in your case . But if you were blocking the intersection , probably someone else would . . . . R. Gleason: That's the point I 'm trying to make , 1 , personally, wouldn 't like to have it happen . But it could happen . CO Twigg: I 've noticed up there on the corner of Stevens Road by Space 's , quite often that corn field is cut along the middle of summer across the corner. I don 't know why - - if someone tells him he has to, or whether he's just a good citizen and decides to go out and do that. G. Totman: This definitely does refer to agricultural crops . R Gleason: The other part I want to mention , 309 , rubbish and junk - - I think in the old ordinance there was some specifications about how that's defined when it comes to a farm and the farm business . CO egg: There 's nothing in this one that says that I don 't believe . G. Totman: Read the last sentence in that one , Roger. It says with the exception of those items associated with work in progress and one has registered a vehicle . Work in progress, correct me if I 'm wrong, usually means something that's used within the last year. If you 've got something on your farm and you 're not going to use it and you 're just going to store it off along the road , that's what we 're trying to discourage . R. Gleason: I understand that. But still , you . . . G. Totman: So it doesn 't pertain to a farmer who's using that equipment. R. Gleason: Use that equipment within a year - - that's what I didn 't know. G. Totman: It means something that you 're just not going to put out there and leave from year to year. As I understand normally, rule of thumb is it's something that you 're not going to use within a year. You go around the country and see a lot of machinery that they've left out. . . A. Grant: They've got it there for parts . 8 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 G. Totman: Not always. What the Town has been going by, and we didn ' t change that, is that if you have two or more unregistered vehicles, you have to apply for a junk yard permit. If you go by the State Building Code - - they don 't allow any really . We think one is okay. If they didn 't put anything in there and the Town hired a zoning officer and he followed the State Building Code book, he could cite anybody that had one . And we're not encouraging that. M Gleason. I guess what I 'm getting at is exactly what a motor vehicle might be . Our equipment, strictly speaking, is a vehicle , but it's a piece of farm machinery. I don 't know what you 're getting at. G. Totman: You just want to store your junk out front, Roger. You can probably pick out almost any instance and say I can 't fit it with my personal thing. But this is really not much different than it's been before . And the zoning officer - - it's not a big problem to them. It 's not something they go out and look for -- they don 't say I know that piece was there last year. It's been 23 years now that it's been in and they really haven't. . . . . I don't remember changing it to begin with . I think we left that the same way it was . G. VanSlyke: The definition hasn' t changed that much , George . The old one reads this : "Rubbish and junk. All yards must be kept of abandoned , inoperable, and unregistered vehicles and machinery, discarded appliances and furniture , all forms of rubbish and junk, and disorderly or unsightly piles of building materials except those associated with work in progress . " That's all it said . M. Carey: We only added on one unregistered vehicle . G. Totman: Any other questions? I should mention to those of you who are here Lyle Raymond is here and he 's the chairman of the Zoning Board of Appeals , so it you want to have something approved that's not in the ordinance, and you need a variance , you have to go to Lyle . . . L. Raymond,* the Board . . . G. Totman: A lot of problems that came up in the present ordinance caused a lot of problems and had to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals , so actually they have a better working knowledge of it than sometimes the Planning Board or the Town Board because they get all the complaints and they have to wrestle with do they get a variance or they don't do a variance . So we asked Lyle , up front, to serve on our committee and give us guidance as to some of the things that were bothering them and what we could change to make it more user-friendly . In answer to your question earlier, Mr. Grant , in all sincerity I really believe we did everything in our power to make it easier to use and a little bit more user-friendly. That was our whole theory throughout the whole project - - make it so the people understand it better and take some of the things away that were hidden . If you constantly have a problem that the zoning officer has to call you on because it isn' t in the ordinance - - the zoning officer doesn't make the ordinance , he just has to comply with it. Then they go to the ZBA and the ZBA says we don 't see anything wrong with it and they pass it. If that's the case and it's not really disrupting the Town then we really should change it. Anybody else? E. Moran: Something I noticed . You have rubbish and junk and in the last Shopper, someone had in there that they would come for free and pick up your old vehicles and . . . . G. Totman: Vehicles, yes. Not rubbish , though . They charge at the landfill to take that. There are some in the area now that pick up for free . And also, the Kidney Foundation - - and George has got their number -- will come and pick up your vehicles free . They use them for fund-raisers . It's a help . F. Hall: Getting back to Colleen's dog kennel situation -- does that enter into the zoning? Or did it enter into the zoning regulations? G. Totman: Pretty near everything that's related to business that 's going to be located next door to somebody else was what they call Site Plan Review. F. Hall: Does that come before the Planning Board? G. Totman: There are some things that are not allowed in certain areas . But if they are allowed , sometimes they are allowed under Site Plan Review . 9 • Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 F. Hall: What does that mean? G. Totman: Well , it's up to the Planning Board whether they want to hold a public hearing or not, whether they think it's going to be that much of an impact on the neighborhood . Like if you 're out in the country and you want to start a little repair shop in your garage or something, there 's no neighbors around close enough to hear your noise anyway, there isn't much object in holding a public hearing. But if there are close neighbors and it looks like something that' s going to be offensive to people , then we try to hold a public hearing. I think, George, and I just happened to think about it, and I 'm not sure if anybody knows about it in here or not, but the lady that has the horses down in Peruville where it's a handicapped type thing - - this will make that legal . Before we had trouble trying to fit it into the program . G. Senter. Therapeutic riding program . The area she had it in was a legal area . It was an RA area. She wants to extend it back up more and I think it' s still in an RA area where her property' s located . Her house sits in the L zone , but where she has the riding stable is in the RA area. It was close , you 're right. G. Totman: Anybody else? Colleen C. Pierson: George -- flag lot . Definition for the thin strip of land - - how wide does it have to be? G. Totman: Twenty feet. It can 't be any less than 20 feet. C. Pierson: Is that stated in here? M. Carey: Yes . C. Twigg: Not less than 20 feet, , And not more than 50 . G. Totman: Somebody give her a copy. C. Pierson: That's what I 'm looking at and it doesn't say . G. Totman: On page 36 at the bottom of the page. T. Robinson: It's per house in the back? Is that maintained by the owner? G. Totman: Page 36, at the bottom - flag poles. C. Twigg: A flag lot has to be two acres, not counting the pole . While the regular lots only need to be one acre. C. Pierson: Oh , really - - for one unit? C. Twigg: Yes. They have to be twice as big. C. Pierson: What if eventually they wanted to extend on back from that flag pole on a piece of land and the only have 20 feet of frontage? G. Totman: They can ' t. C. Pierson: If they had 50 feet of frontage , that can be turned into a road and they could develop that out back later on? G. Totman: Right. C. Pierson: But how do they know that? T. Robinson: Do they have to come before the Board? 10 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 C. Plersons If they only have 20 feet and they have 30 acres out back, how can they ever build out there? C. Twiw: I think usually the realtors find out what the regulations are and usually people , if they've got that much acreage, they talk about that before they buy. . . If they are going to buy 20 acres, then they have to buy another 30 feet. C. Pierson: Are we looking to create or use existing land that doesn't meet the code? C. Twigg: Use existing land , primarily, is what they want to do . C. Pierson: We're not creating -- we're not saying someone can go out and say I can buy 20 feet and get back there , have two acres of land , and build my house? G. Totman: Yes. That's the purpose of it. C. Pierson: So you are creating. I 'm just trying to find out what you 've got in here . I just can' t understand it. You have a pole is 20 feet minimum . That can go back in, what, 200 feet? C. Twigg: A thousand . C. Pierson: A thousand feet. Then you 've got two acres of land you have to have before you can build one place? Co Twigg: That's it . C. Pierson: Okay. C. Twigg: A one- or two-family unit. Not a business . R. Walpole: Just like , Colleen, out there on the Town Line Road . There 's a 25 -foot strip that goes back to 47 acres. The Zoning Board turned it down because it didn't have enough road frontage . C. Pierson: So that will make that lot legal? R. Walpole: Yes. C. Pierson: It will make it so they can use the land. Thank you . T. Robinson: For one place . One- or two-family? Why can you have a two-family back there? (At this time, several people were talking at the same time while Chairman Totman was speaking ; nothing was salvageable on the tape, nor could the secretary hear what was being said . ) G. Totman: One of the things we tried not to do was to have it so it looked like a spider web out there . Each one has to have their own access to the road . If you didn't have that rule in there, you could have somebody buy ten acres back here , 23 feet up front and call it a private driveway and build a whole lot of houses back there. What we did Was pretty much go by the suggested guidelines. T. Robinson: Can I ask questions, too? G. Totman: I hope so. T. Robinson: All right. I was asking about why you have a two-family property back there because I understood it was supposed to be for one family . Now you 've got two which is stretching it from what we were talking about before . And the other thing is, and the fellows just explained to me that this was so if something happens in the family and you wanted to bring somebody in. But you can do that with ECHO housing. Why do you have to have two-family -in there? 11 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 CO Twiw: Like a lot of times people move back that got big families . They build a 4 - or 5 - bedroom house . When those kids all leave home, who needs a 4- to 5 -bedroom house? Why not put an apartment in? Then they can make it a two -family and utilize the building. G. Totman: A lot of the homes , now , Teresa , are being built from start with what they call a "mother-in-law" apartment. I think the mother-in -law is paying for the house just so she can have an apartment . But in all sincerity, there are an awful lot of new homes going in nowadays with that . To me , that's a two -family house . And 1 don ' t really think it' s fair to somebody to say they can build a one-family house back here , but your mother-in -law or father-in-law or father and mother. . . . T. Robinson: You 've already taken care of that because . . . . G. Totman: But some people got their house big enough so they can all live together. T. Robinson: Okay. So why don 't you say that this is one-family house with an apartment? Female : Then you 've got a two-family dwelling . It's the same thing. T. Robinson: Not necessarily. G. Totman: I don't care . . . . T. Robinson: What I 'm trying to do is to find out why you 're going for the two - - I know what you 're saying, but I just want to know why you're stretching it a little. G. Totman: I 'll tell you why we 're doing it. We're doing it so the people would like it better. We 're trying to do it so the people won' t come back and say, "Why can 't we have my mother-in-law live with us?" "Why can 't we put a mother-in-law apartment in?" We thought we were doing it for the opposite reason we're getting now. We thought we'd do it for the least resistance . M. Carey: With ECHO housing we 've got restrictions on those . T. Robinson: No you don't. M. Carey: Yes, we do. G. Senter. Are you putting any restrictions on the two-family? Are you saying the two-family has to be owner-occupied? Have you said that, George, or not? G. Totman: I don't think so. M. Carey: There are restrictions on the ECHO housing . J. Le%Vis: It has to be on two acres . T. Robinson: You mean to say you have restrictions on ECHO housing? M. Carey: Yes, as to what you can have in it. G. Totman: You 'd never get it passed by the public if you didn 't have restrictions. T. Robinson: No , but I mean what restriction is there that you couldn't put that back there? G. Totman: I didn't say there were any restrictions you could put that. . . . M. Carey: If your mother-in- law wanted to move in with you and she was only 50, and she was in perfectly good health , we couldn 't allow an ECHO housing unit to go onto the property . 12 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 G. Totman: There ' s guidelines in order to get the ECHO housing . ECHO housing is another building in an area where they are normally not allowed . So you set up guidelines saying that it's . . . Rai. Carey: It's on page 45 . G. Totman: . . . . got to be for your mother-in-law, father-in - law, or a member of your family. And the need is there . If you got an apartment in your house - - you built it that way or you want to change it over -- we don't feel that because that's not putting an extra building on the property we didn't feel that would create that much or affect the aesthetics of the neighborhood as bringing in another building and setting it there . With ECHO housing, once the need is gone , the house is gone . With this , that' s different . T. Robinson: I understand that now , What I 'm trying to get at is - - I want it explained out that this is what it's for and not to expand on ending up with more houses back there than you need . R. Walpole: Even back in 1972 when the zoning ordinance was passed , there were no controls. At least at this point when you 're developing the flag lot, no matter what has to be done has to come back through the building department. If the Town has a zoning enforcement officer - - in 1972 they did not. T. Robinson: No. I understand that. I just wanted. . . . R. Walpole, There ' s controls already in place for this stuff. A flag lot can be developed - - whether one family or two family. To get a building permit - - there are controls . . . T. Robinson: The other thing I understand about these flag lots is that if you have the flag lot and you put it in for one property , two acres, I understand that. But if you put it in and you have it in there with the idea of building more houses back in there , that that' s got to be built as a Town road and go back - - but they are doing that and there are restrictions, but they are doing it. G. Totman: Where are they doing it, Teresa? T. Robinson: If they do it down in Dryden, they have to put in a regular town road . Yes, they do. CO Twice That's a different process. G. Totinan: You haven 't got apples and apples together, Teresa. A town road requires 50 to 60 feet, depending on the town . if you 've only got 20 to 30 feet, you can' t put a town road in . T. Robinson: But when you put it -- what I 'm trying to say , 1 guess is when you have somebody come and apply for a flag lot and they've set it up and they come to you and you accept that road as part of their property, right? and part of their maintenance . G. Totman: A flag lot is not something you can go ahead and do . It's just like any other thing that requires a Site Plan Review or subdivision review. If they want to do it, it's in there that says you can do it, but you 've got to come to the Planning Board and treat it as if it's a subdivision or a Site Plan Review and make sure it's being done according to the rules. So it doesn ' t open it up so just anybody can plop , plop flag lots all over the place . A. Grant, There 's a fellow here behind me that's got a hundred acres . Now he wouldn' t be too happy if he heard what you 're saying because he's got a 30- foot right of way - - it's the only thing he's got through there . He's got a hundred acres back there and he could build houses on it. G. Totnian: What this is doing right now, if they are who I think they are . I 'm not sure, but I think I know who they are . Right now in our present ordinance they can 't do anything with that property that they wanted to that they bought it for. Once this ordinance is changed , they can build a house back there . A. Grant: But they only have a 30- foot right-of-way going back. G. Totman: Like I said - - this is making it so they can . 13 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 F. Casino: Well , you 're going to have to have a definition . . , . G. Totman: We 've got a definition here of a mobile home . We'll just take that section about mobile home park right out of there . C. Haynes: And just make reference to the Mobile Home Ordinance . G. Totman: Yes. And say "see Mobile Home Ordinance . " Does that agree with everybody here? It's under Mobile Home Park on page 10. Just put "see Mobile Home Park Ordinance . " Okay? F. Casullo: Or people would have to pay wouldn' t they to buy the Mobile Home Ordinance . Just put verbatim , you 've got Mobile Home Park - - just say "per the Mobile Home Ordinance of the Town of Groton , a mobile home park is as follows % . and quote it. That way when they buy this zoning ordinance they know what it is and if they have further questions , they can go refer to the Mobile Home Park Ordinance . Do you see what I 'm saying? G. Totman: Not really , F. Casullo: If you say "see the Mobile Home Ordinance , " I think you want to tell people because sometimes they have to pay to get the Mobile Home Ordinance - - if they are paying to get the new Land Use Code , you can put in the definition "per the Town of Groton Mobile Home Ordinance , the following is the definition of a mobile home park" . . and then quote it. And if they have any further questions, they can go , quite frankly , and refer to the Mobile Home Ordinance . That way they can see the definition . G. Totman: The only thing I kind of stay away from is the complications of when you change something , like you were putting that in there , is if we put the definition of a Mobile Home Park in here, and sometime down the road we make an amendment to the Mobile Home Park Ordinance, then they forget to do this one because they didn't realize it was there . Those things happen . C. Twigg: This is the same way we 're doing now - - we 've got this one written differently, and they can do the same . . . . G. Totman: Well, I 've seen it happen. He's got a good idea, but five years down the road when you 've got a different Town Board or you got different people on the Planning Board , they rewrite the Mobile Home Park Ordinance . Then somebody comes along a year or so later and they look at this and they say "well, how come it says this in here and that in there?" F. Casullo: That's a good point. You can leave it like that. The only thing I was thinking was that people would stay on top of this stuff. The whole idea is to stay on top of this if you want to protect yourself. If you have to make proper amendments, you make proper amendments . But your point is certainly well taken . G. Totman: I think we should change that to make them both the same . L. fierce: On page 52 , the Land Use Activities, it does specify that mobile home parks have to be developed in accordance with the Town Mobile Home Park Ordinance . G. Totman: That's right . We'll just correct that first one . Very good . Okay. I thank you all for coming. C. Pierson: Don't close it. One more . Sorry about that, but what is the square footage in this user- friendly book here . G. Totman: Square footage of what? C. Pierson: Of the home . I can 't find anything . G. Totmane We eliminated it . 17 I Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 C. Pierson: Good . So I can build a 50 by 50 with no problem. G. Totman: No you can 't . C. Pierson: Why? G. Totman: Because you have to meet the State Building Code . C. Pierson: This is user-friendly though . This doesn 't tell me what the Building Code is . G. Totman: We can ' t predict in this ordinance what the changes are in the State Building Code , C. Plerson: What is it now? G. Totman: The State Building Code? C. Pierson: Yes. Co Twigg: Ask George. We discussed it. G. Totman: Well , we talked about it many times . It doesn 't have a total square footage , because you have to have at least one room of 80 square feet, you have to have at least so many feet for the kitchen . It depends . In order to allow ECHO flats , you had to take out the 840 square footage . There are a lot of people retiring now and buying a couple acres in the woods and they just want to build a little dinky house . Under the old ordinance , you couldn't do that . So we took that out . They still have to get a building permit to build any building in the Town of Groton . George will decide and make sure that they meet the State Building Code . C. Pierson: But it's less than 840 square feet. G. Totman: There isn't any "feet, " yes. C. Pierson: Now, my mobile home has to be 840 square feet. G. Totmaw Where does it say that? C. Pierson: In the Mobile Home Ordinance , G. Totman: We 're not changing that. We can 't change the Mobile Home Ordinance with this . C. Pierson: You can't say one can be less than and one 840 square feet. C. TWigg: We just did . J. Lewis: You 've got two separate things . C. Pierson: They are both residences . G. Totman: Colleen , the lawyer just said , whatever we put in this can ' t change that . This is a separate document from that. If that one wants to be changed so they can put in smaller trailers , then we 'll have to change that one . C. Pierson: You 're going to have to because that's illegal . G. Totman: This is a separate document from that. C. Pierson: I understand that . P. Palmer: So the NY Code allows so many square foot for kitchen , so many square foot for living are a? 18 Joint Public Hearing - Groton Town Board & Planning Board 9 March 1995 G. Totaman: They have a minimum . That's right. Right, George? G. 9enter: Yes, per unit. F. Halle How much land do you have to have for a trailer? G. Totman: Same as a regular home . No difference . F. Hall: So if you've got X number of acres, you can put as many trailers in as you want? G. Totman: As long as you meet the park rules . Okay? I thank you all for coming . The public hearing ended at 99.22 p.m. Respectfully submitted , Joan E . Fitch Recording Secretary 19 471 / Lot _ ! p ell ta` :j = , Ae Y - _ Z -h ...All, s;q zt t 4/ s v i