HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995-01-19 r„
TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD
Thursday, 19 January 1995
Board Members (*present) Others Present
*George Totman, Chairman Robert Walpole
*Monica Carey George Senter, Sr. , CEO
*Sheldon Clark Tracey Smith , Tompkins County
*Jeff Lewis Circuit Rider
*Verl Rankin Teresa Robinson, Town Supervisor
*George VanSlyke Douglas Tompkins
*.Cecil Twigg
The meeting was called to order at 8 *05 p.m. by Chairman Tatman.
G. Totman: The first item on our agenda is to approve the minutes of December's meeting. Has
everybody read them?
G. VanSlyke: I'll make a motion to accept them.
M. Carey: I'll second it.
G. Totman: All in favor? (All were in favor.) Have you all looked over the site plan review for Doug
Tompkins? Apparently he's not here to explain what he wants to do . Doug Tompkins lives on 47
Talmadge Road. . .
M. Carey: Let's jump to Bobby as long as he's not here.
G. Totman: All right, you're right. We really should talk to him and if he's not here, we'll have to
postpone it.
C. Twigg: He was planning on coming.
G. Totman: We will move to the subdivision proposal for a three-lot on Smith Road - Van Almelo.
It. Walpole: Okay, On Mr. Van Almelo, at this point it's a preliminary. We refer to the map, and as
you go up Spring Street to the Smith Road intersection and turn right and go north on Smith Road,
starting on the corner up to where the hedgerow starts is where this subdivision will start and go back.
According to the survey -- you're going to have to buy my sketch plan -- this line here, which is in the
center, we think is the hedgerow where the engineer/surveyor is working on the thing. When I was in
here last fall, we had one , two, three , four, five, six -- not knowing what we were going to sell at that
point. And for informational purposes, we have if you start from the bottom where the word says
"Hedgerow, " one, two, three , four, we do have confirmation on Lot #4 which is 200 feet of road frontage ,
approximately 3-4 acres, subject to the final survey. We do have a confirmed sale on that. Coming back
to what we classify as Lot # 1 , we do have a purchase offer on that, but no confirmation on the financing
from the State Bonding Authority through SONYMAE, but there's cash for the lot. We do have people
looking at buying the center piece, but I don't know at this point if they are going to be buying
additional land out back. It's too premature, but we will advise the Planning Board on a month-to-
month basis at this point as the purchase offers do come tn . At this point, it could very well go into a
major, depending on the acreage , or a minor. I'll leave that discretion to the Board to decide what this
thing triggers. If it ends up, we have one, two, three, four -- is it five that triggers a major?
G. Totman: Yes.
R. Walpole: And if the woods lot goes with all the woods all at once, we could have two three- to
four-acre lots, one six to seven acres, and one 30-acre lot before we get through with it. It's just too
premature at this point. The center lot -- people from New Jersey were looking at it. They wanted the
additional acreage out back -- I don't have the big map with me tonight -- but there's a small open field
that is tillable -- they use it for hay and stuff -- that would also come into this, but we . . . .
,.
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
G. Tatman. By the center lot, are you referring to Lot #3?
It Walpole. No . This would be additional property over here . It goes into a different tax map
parcel.
G. Totman: You keep referring to the center lot.
G. VanSlyke: Which one is it?
R. Walpole. What I 'm referring to on the center lot would be 2 and 3.
G. VanSlyke: Combined together?
R. Walpole, It could very well become one lot. We don't know.
V. Rankin: What about all this back here, Bob?
R. Walpole, What's going to happen here on this map is. . . . .this whole thing, this hedgerow, this
whole thing will move over. There's an apple orchard here they are going to maintain. There's at least
200 feet that we'll bring back to clear away this here. There's going to be a small piece of land here that
we will not landlock. Either it will go with this or it will stay with the main part.
V. Rankin: Then this black line here could go back here?
R. Walpole. It'll go back there and that will show at the next meeting when I bring it in to show the
actual -- this is only a rough sketch done by myself. Milt Greene thought that hedgerow was this line,
but up until the time they certified it.
G. Totman: For the minutes, Bob, what we're calling this is a developer's conference meeting.
R. Walpole. A preliminary site plan review, please. Yes.
G. Totman: So you're just looking for questions and answers and no decisions.
R. Walpole. And the only reason for this is that George may have to issue a building permit on Lot
# 4 .
G. Senter. Which is as it sits right now.
R. Walpole, That's correct. The thing I wanted -- so that everyone was clear about what's going on
up there so there probably will be a building permit issued . I know the application is coming. It has not
come in yet because I won't let them release it until we get a survey there so I can make sure where all the
boundary lines are. They wanted to start digging the foundation because of the weather and we did not
have our survey work done. We did not get the commitment until about ten days ago.
G. Totman, Anybody have any questions?
X Carey. No . It all looks pretty legal to me.
R. Walpole: With that only being a four-unit altogether, we just don't know -- it's still premature.
G. Totman, We don't need to do a SEAR on it, then.
R. Walpole. I'm not sure how you want to treat this -- as a minor and then if I have to move to
amend it, do we need to pay a fee up front. In case it does transfer either to a rural or a major, I can
probably come in and amend the original.
G. Seater. It can always be a minor, Bob, until it's a major. Because you're less than five acres.
2
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
G. Totman: Your question is when do you have to pay the fee for the change.
IL Walpole: We've sketched this basically as a preliminary. At this point we'll probably go for a
minor subdivision unless something changes.
G. Totman: In the event it changes to a major, we'll just tell you the difference and then you just go
in and pay the Town Clerk. Has anybody talked to Mr. Tompkins?
Ce T igg: I did. He's figuring on coming tonight. (Mr. Tompkins then arrives.)
G. Totman: Mr. Tompkins, would you like to just briefly explain to the Board what you've got in
mind?
D. Tompkins: I just want to open a shop at my home location.
G. Totman: Does everyone know where his house, his property is?
M. Carey: You own six acres?
D. Tompkins: Yes I do. And my home and my shop is 300 feet off the road.
M. Carey. Okay.
G. Totman: How close are the nearest neighbors to his place?
D. Tompkins: I have really no neighbors.
G. Seater. Mary Decker,
D. Tompkins: Yes, Mary Decker is my closest.
G. Seater. Dave Christofferson lives back of you doesn't he?
D. Tompkins: On the other side of the block.
G. Seater. Yes. It would be way over.
D. Tompkins: I'm pretty secluded, which I like.
M. Carey. You just want to fix cars? You don't sell cars?
D. Tompkins: For right now, just fix. I might try to get into some other things just later down the
road, but it probably will not be selling cars. If anything, it will be in another field. Everybody does
that.
M. Carey. You're not going to have any junk vehicles around?
D. Tompkins: No. I don't deal with customers that have junk and I don't like that reputation.
Basically, where I park the cars right now I'm far enough off the road where most people drive by my
place and don't even know I 've got them, so it's not a matter of any junk vehicles being lined up . Not
only that, the clientele I serve -- that would not be good for my business.
G. Totman: Site Plan Review is normally so that the Planning Board can see what's happening.
One of the objects of the whole thing is to protect the neighborhood because there's other neighbors
around. And one of the reasons she was asking about junk cars and things like that is because
invariably people that fix cars all of a sudden collect a lot of junk cars and junk like that and it creates
a problem in the neighborhood . Usually, the normal procedure is -- if there's nothing else that
hampers or holds up having something like this happen, the hours of operation are usually designated
on the special permit. And what we mean by hours of operation is where it's going to be noisy outside --
see on the one side of your property it's quite a few hundred feet before you could get possibly a neighbor.
3
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
But on the other side of your property you could possibly have neighbors not too far away. And we have
to think about them if somebody is there and it could mean being kept awake at night -- now you're not
talking about a body shop, you're talking about a repair shop?
D. Tompkins: I'm a body shop, too. But I'm not. . . .
G. Totman. Body shops make more noise than repair shops.
D. Tompkins: Yes and no, because I restore exotic imported cars. I don't exactly. . . . I do collision work,
too, but it's not a matter of like per se a body shop . I'm a little more into everything; it's not going to be
noisy all the time .
G. Totman. I guess when I'm talking about hours, I'm talking about going out in your garage at 9
o'clock at night and working on somebody's car. In regular neighborhood garages people do things like
that, but I 'm talking about things that are offensive to the neighborhood whereby if somebody's out
there revving up a car to see how it runs and stuff like that. So we normally set an hour of operation so
that we're sure that if we do have close neighbors sometime in the future , that point is taken care of So
that's what we have to decide tonight if we decide to approve the request. Also, we have to make sure
that in the permit it will say that you will provide offstreet parking so that people don't have to park
along the road. Apparently you've got enough room to handle that. And we don't want to create a
situation of people having junk cars around on their property. Normally, if people bring their car in
for repair they expect to get it back in a couple of days, so you're not going to keep it around for two or
three months. Normally, people don't want to leave their car that long anyway, but some places they
come up with the argument that we have to do that because they don't do this or they don't pay for it or
they're waiting for their money, and stuff like that. But with what you just said, you don't anticipate
running that kind of a business.
D. Tompkins: Personally, the way I feel is I don't want to come out of my house and look at junk
laying around. I'm the same way. I go down the road and see people's houses that have things laying
around. I find that offensive, too . And I don't want to do that to my place . Basically, what I want to do
is keep a clean operation at my place because that's the kind of clients I serve.
G. Totman: The Ordinance already says you can't have more than one junk car on the property. So
if we -- just let me run this by to see if we can get something moving here -- if the Planning Board should
agree to have this permit issued and, following the rules of no more than one so-called junk car, and no
more than two customer cars out in the open -- visible from the road from the general public, would
that be something you could live with . And if we set hours like no earlier than 7 o'clock in the morning
and no later than 6 o'clock at night or something like that so it would bother the neighbors. . .
D. Tompkins: I don't do anything outside . The only other problem I have is sometimes I do Federal
Express vans. Sometimes they do set out and I can't help that. So I don't know if you want to consider
that one vehicle or. . . . probably two vehicles is a little shy of what I would actually have there . It's not a
matter of them sitting there forever, but I mean at one time I might have three cars sitting there that
one day and it would be gone the next day.
G. Totman: That's not what we're looking at -- we're looking at something that's going to be there
from day to. . .
D. Tompkins: A permanent fixture?
G. Totman: Just for example -- if you say two cars. The Zoning Officer drives by and he sees two
cars there -- more than two cars there. Normally, he'll go back the second day to see what you got and if
they're removed, and you've only got two cars there, it's not going to be a problem to him. I'm just
running it by the Board to get something to talk about.
C. Twiggy I don't think his particular location -- I drive by there frequently -- and I didn't know
until I stopped there the other day that there were any vehicles there. He's so far off the road and you've
got to look to even see his buildings, so it isn't like he's setting out along the road. So I don't think -- I
don't know what -- it's a repair shop -- well, the day I stopped there I was in the driveway and then
another guy pulled in. There's two cars.
4
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
G. Totman: That's not what we're talking about, Cecil . We're talking about cars that are inoperable
waiting to be repaired or fixed. We're not talking about customer cars.
J. Lewis: You said you restore cars. Is there a chance that you would have more than one of
them? I mean would you put one outside and park it or something?
D. Tompkins: Once in a while I have to, if I 'm waiting for parts or the customer to bring another
installment on money, or if I'm in a bind and need to get something else in the shop, yes.
J. Lewis: So it's possible you might have one car there that you're going to restore and maybe a
Federal Express van and maybe a couple of cars that you're working on?
G. Totman: The garage can only hold two cars -- your garage, right?
D. Tompkins: No, I can hold about four.
G. Totman: Twenty by twenty?
D. Tompkins: No. My garage is 28 by almost 60, That's an older survey right there . My garage is
bigger than that now.
G. Totman: I just said two to get something. . . . .
J. Lewis: I could see where he could have five cars there and not creating havoc. But if you put
two down he's going to be back in here or he's going to be in front of somebody.
D. Tompkins: You're going to be hurting my business because I do too much work.
G. Totman: Okay.
D. Tompkins: I want to be realistic about it, too. By no means do I want to make my place offensive.
J. Lewis: The whole thing is, though, you don't want to come in here and agree to the two cars
and then in a month or two have George drive by and cite you for something wrong.
D. Tompkins: I can say right now I can't go with two cars. And I can almost say that I have a lot of
natural boundaries that even if you come down either Talmadge Road. . . .
G. Totman: When I 'm talking about cars, I 'm talking about cars that are there waiting to be
repaired.
D. Tompkins: I could probably have an easy four. If I 'm waiting for an insurance adjuster, or if the
car is inoperable where it's been wrecked hard -- I mean I'm going to have a couple of jobs sitting and
waiting for paperwork.
G. Totman: So, okay, you're talking about four cars -- we're talking about cars -- if your garage will
hold up to four -- I mean you're going to have some inside -- so when you're saying four, we're only
talking about what's on the outside, not what's on the inside .
D. Tompkins: I'm not talking about what's inside.
G. Totman: So would four be more realistic to you?
V. Rankin: Oh, give him five or ten. . . . .
D. Tompkins: I would much rather have a little bit more now and get it over with.
V. Rankin: Sure .
5
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
J. Lewis. What would you like, Doug? What would be your idea?
D. Tompkins: Realistically, I 'd like to go to the point where if I had in my natural boundary a real
nice clean parking lot behind my garage that's not offensive from either Cobb Street or Talmadge Road,
I would like to be able to have at least eight cars. Just because in the future I do plan on expanding and I
can create that much work. If it got to the point where it was offensive , then you can come and tell me
and we could go from there, but I'm not saying that I want to start doing that.
G. Totman: Well, we can add two a lot easier than we could take away.
D. Tompkins: I'm just trying to be realistic.
G. Totman. Now what's the size of your garage now, again?
D. Tompkins: Twenty-eight by 60. I added on about three months ago.
G. Totman: So if we pick the number of cars and said that they would be the ones that you are
storing waiting for repairs or waiting for insurance adjusters to come through, if they were on the back
side of the garage -- what I mean by back side is when you're driving down Talmadge Road they would be
on the back side of the garage so they wouldn't be noticed from Talmadge Road,
D. Tompkins: You wouldn't even notice them from either. . . . .
G. Totman. But when we're saying four, five , six, seven, or eight -- whatever we're saying -- we're
saying that the designated area would be that point on the other side of the garage.
D. Tompkins: It would be on the east side of the garage.
Ce TWI g That's the driveway or parking lot on the south side of the garage.
G. Totman: So you could easily get eight cars there and not have them visible from the other side of
the garage.
M. Carey. You can't even see the place.
V. Rankin: He'll sneak in two or three more anyways.
G. Totman: Verl .
Ce TWIN: Really, I've driven by there and I knew he lived there and I knew he had a garage down
in there and I used to tell myself I wonder if he's working down there and I would try to see if he had
vehicles around there . And you can't see them from the road even if you're looking for them.
G. Totman: But we've got to go through the same routine that you do for everybody so if somebody
else comes in next month and wants one they'll say "Well, geez, you didn't put anything on him because
he's off the road. " You've got to have something for George as a guideline to go by. And so if we can say
up to eight, but those eight will be designated as a parking space on that side of the garage -- and I 'm
talking about this side right here --
D. Tompkins: This would be a parking spot where customers will come in, and then I'm going to park
here .
G. Totman: Out here?
D. Tompkins: Yes.
G. Totman, Oh. That would be right next to your boundary line .
D. Tompkins: Yes. That's my father's.
6
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
G. Totman. But supposin' he sells it next month to somebody else?
D. Tompkins: I have first dibs. That will be my land.
G. Totman. How far is your garage from the boundary line?
D. Tompkins: Twenty feet.
G. Totman: Then eight cars wouldn't fit in there then.
CO TWIM Stack 'em.
G. Totman. What do you figure for a car -- six feet? Eight times six is 48 and the garage is 28.
D. Tompkins: You can direct line them up like this also. You don't have to go like this, you can go like
this. So you can pack nine cars in like that in a heartbeat within that 20 feet. You necessarily don't
have to line them up like this.
G. Totman: I understand that.
J. Lewis: He's not talking about Lincoln Continentals either.
C. Twigg: Not a car like you drive, George .
J. Lewis: Little ones, like a Nissan, something like that.
G. Totman: I'm talking about 28 feet. Even if they are only five feet wide, that's -- eight times five is
forty -- no matter how you want to look at it. I just want to make sure we know, because when we get
done with this, I have to tell Carol what to print on the permit. So I want to make sure we all agree
before I tell her something.
D. Tompkins: Let me put it this way also. On the north side of the garage, I also have where the garage
is there it goes down four feet and there's another area that is behind natural boundaries, and I could
easily put those eight cars there also.
G. Totman: Where is that?
D. Tompkins: It will be right here.
G. Totman: And not visible from the road here?
D. Tompkins: No it isn't. I have a natural boundary right through there. It's all woods. I can put the
parking lot wherever you want it.
G. Totman: I just want to make sure that everybody agrees and you agree because we've had people
like you come in before. Maybe not like you -- but people that have asked for the same type of thing and
read everything we say. And then a year later when the Enforcement Officer goes out and looks he's got
all kinds of problems because even though he agreed to do what we said, he did something completely
different. So if that's going to happen, then there's no sense of us going through this motion.
D. Tompkins: That's fine. That's fine . I agree this should happen, but I do like to see it kept fair for
everybody.
G. Totman: Okay. So what does the Planning Board think?
J. Lewis: If he puts it on the north side, that gets it away from the boundary line.
G. Totman: I would prefer putting it on the side -- either the north or south -- so it's not next to the
boundary line .
7
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
K Carey. I agree.
D. Tompkins: I don't want to put it on the south side because I don't want to look at it.
Co Twim That's the side his house is on.
G. Totman: Yes, I understand that.
D. Tompkins: So I'd rather put it on the north side.
W Carey. Put it on the north side.
G. Totman: So how many cars do you want to allow there?
Ce TWIN He says eight. I see no problem with it, with that location.
S. Clark: I don't either.
G. Totman: Everybody agree?
M. Carey. It's more than our usual amount but because of the location. . . . .
J. Lewis, He's really got three different types of business that he's doing out of that as opposed to
most of the people that come in here who are either mechanical or they are body shop. He's going to get
Into more different phases. And I could see where he could get stuck on one car and have to go to
something else.
G. Totman: Eight customer cars stored in line on north side of garage.
D. Tompkins: Can I make that so I can have at least one or two on the east side?
J. Lewis. Well, that's legal anyway, right.
Ce TWI g: Yes. East and north side and not one of them would be visible from the road.
G. Totman: But a total of eight.
Ce TWI g: Yes.
M. Carey: With no more than four on the east side. Four times five is 20.
G. VanSlyke: I can't take this higher math .
G. Totman: All right. Let me put it this way then to make it more workable. If you're going to allow
up to eight cars, and you're going to have them stored in line so they look decent, not farther than 20
feet from the garage.
CO TWI g: Okay. He can live with that.
G. Totman, Does that make sense?
M. Carey. Okay.
C* Twim Yes. That sounds good, George. You're sharp. I like you, George. You're not confusing.
G. Totman: Hours of operation.
D. Tompkins: Eight to six, Monday through Friday, and . . . .
C. Twigg: Midnight on the weekends.
8
4.
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
D. Tompkins: Eight to three on Saturdays.
G. Totman: Why don't you just make it eight to six, Monday thru Saturday? The only time you
really have a problem is if you get out there and get crazy and the neighbors, if you had any, started
complaining. Then they would call George to come out and check to see if you 're operating out of your
hours.
Ce Twigg: Are you saying our Zoning Enforcement Officer hasn't got the ambition to drive out
there and check on him?
G. Totman: No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that at all. I said the Zoning Officer on a normal tour
of duty would not be around after three o'clock on a Saturday afternoon. Anybody got anything else?
BL Carey, Sounds good to me.
D. Tompkins: Now, do I measure from the center of the road for a sign?
G. Totman: Right now, the Ordinance reads that it's got to be -- see, that's a Town road, right? Is
that a Town road?
J. Lewis: County, I think.
Ce TWI gr County, ain't it?
G. Totman: If it's a County road it's got to be 45 feet from the center of the road . It's ten foot from
the road right-of-way, and usually on a County road there's 70 feet. Town roads are 60 feet.
G. Seater: Town and County are 50, George, The State's 60,
D. Tompkins: So where do I measure from the center of the road?
C. Twigg: I thought from the last time we were going to have to measure from the edge of the road,
from the right-of-way, George. Remember?
G. Totman: Well, it's hard for John Q. Public to know where the right-of-way is. And if you figure
the road is 60 foot, or whatever. . . .
Co TWJ g: What was my argument when we had that before?
M. Carey. That's in the new ordinance . We're talking about the old ordinance right now.
G. Totman: I thought Corny told me they changed to 60 feet.
G. Seater. He hasn't told me.
J. Lewis. Corny did say that.
G. Totman. I thought so. But anyway, if you want to get your sign up and you make your
application for a sign. . . .
D. Tompkins: You've got to do an application for a sign?
G. Totman: You've got to do an application for a sign. This is what I suggest you do. You make your
application and show where it's going to be . They'll give it to George and he'll check it out to see it's
within the Ordinance . And he'll tell you whether it's right or not.
D. Tompkins: Okay. So I just got to come back down here during business hours and get an
application for a sign?
9
4 .
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
G. Totman: That's right. We don't give out applications for signs. And actually, we originate the
idea and suggest to the Town Board how the Ordinance and stuff are set up, but once they are set up ,
things like signs are strictly up to the Code Enforcement Officer. So if he wants to call it 60 feet wide, or
50 feet wide, or 70 feet wide, he tells you where the sign's gonna be.
D. Tompkins: So that's between George and I?
G. Totman: That's right.
D. Tompkins: So all I got to do is fill out an application . I could even do this next week.
G. Totman: Sure.
G. Seater. Carol has them out there. We'll find out from Corny what the setbacks are so I can
move all these porches and houses back five feet.
J. Lewis: He told us that at the Unicorn when we were having coffee.
M. Carey: You mean he bought you coffee?
J. Lewis: He buys my lunch every Friday. I think he said they just changed it though, George.
G. Totman: Anybody got anything else they'd like to bring up.
C. Twlgg: Yes. What runs under that sluice pipe there?
G. Totman. Water.
Ce Twim That's not a crick -- that's not a stream that runs through there in back of your garage
is it?
D. Tompkins: Not year-round. In the spring. Right now there's some in it, but it will dry up.
G. Totman. Survey don't show it.
Ce TWIN: The survey don't show it, that's why I . . . .
D. Tompkins: That's not the main one. The main stream would be on my boundary on the south side.
That's the big stream.
CO TWIN: Oh, yes. That's right. But that's quite a ways back.
D. Tompkins: Yes,
G. Totman: So what we will do, then, if you people pass this the way it is right now, I will instruct
the special permit to be drawn up that the regular ordinance will be followed as to junk cars, there will
be allowed up to eight customer cars stored in a line not farther than 20 feet from the garage. And the
hours of operation will be Monday thru Saturday, 8 to 6. Everybody agree to that?
M. Carey, Yes,
G. Totman: Before I go any farther, we have to do the SEAR Form. The State Environmental
Quality Review Act requires that before any action is made the Board has to make sure there are no
environmental impacts to it. So we have to go through and ask these questions. You filled out the front
part of that, so we have to do the back part. George. . . .
George VanSlyke then reads aloud Part H of the Short Environmental
Assessment Form, at the request of Chairman Totman. Negative
responses were obtained to all questions in Part U and it was determined
by the Planning Board that the action receive a negative declaration.
10
Town of Groton Planning Board January 18, 1895
X Carey: I'll declare this a negative dec .
Ce Twim I'll second it,
G. Totman: Any more questions? Anybody want to make a motion to accept or reject the plan as
presented?
G. VanSlyke: I make the motion we accept the Site Plan Review,
S. Clark: I'll second it.
G. Totman: With the stipulations. All in favor? (All indicated they were in favor.) Carried,
D. Tompkins: Thank you very much . I'll be in for an application for a sign -- tomorrow,
G. Totman: Okay, you guys. Now, these things that we just passed out. . . Jet me clarify what, as I
understand, how this process works. We finished the work that we did on the Zoning Ordinance . We
officially presented it to the Town Board at the last meeting, At that meeting, through the cooperation
of the members of the Town Board that were there, and the Planning Board, and the Zoning Officer, and
the Town Attorney, there were some suggested changes made . These are the changes that were made at
that meeting, so these are for information only as it's out of our hands now and in the Town Board's
hands. So if the Town Board wants to change what they want, that's their prerogative -- even more than
this if they want to. But these are what we all agreed on that night and it's in their hands, That's the
normal way the process works, So I just wanted to make sure that we all understand what we did and
how we did it, Everything we talked about that night -- notice , though , on the back page of this, is the
sample of the proposed Zoning Map that we didn't have at the last meeting; we told them we would have
it to give to them at a later date, And as of now -- Teresa Is here now. Maybe she can explain further, but
as Chairman of the Planning Board, I have heard nothing official of what they did at their meeting --
whether they accepted it or rejected it, or passed it, or whatever. What we originally thought we were
going to do was the Planning Board and the Town Board, after this was put into the Ordinance, was hold
the public hearing. So I guess we're waiting for the Town Board to agree on a date for the public hearing.
Is that the way you understand it, Teresa?
T. Robinson: No .
G. Totman: Oh, okay. That's the way we all understand it.
T. Robinson: Well I understood that there was going to be some changes,
G. Totman: We did that, That's what this is.
T. Robinson: Yes. I know, But there's a couple other things we didn't understand that I wanted to
have explained .
G. Totman, Okay, Explain. What I'm saying is, Teresa, once the Planning Board. . . . .
T. Robinson: We're going to have another hearing on this, right?
G. Totman: That's what we asked for. We can go ahead and have a public hearing, but that doesn't
do the Town Board any good because the Town Board still has to hold one of their own,
T. Robinson: Right.
G. Totman: What we proposed to do to make it easier for the Town Board is to hold a joint meeting
so we would be there to answer the questions for the Town Board, We are now waiting for the date for
the public hearing. I thought we made that quite clear. But the way it normally works is the Planning
Board, because the Town Board asked them to do this and gave us the charge to do what we did. . . . the
11
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
Planning Board did it and now we've officially turned it over to the Town Board . If the Town Board
wants to make changes in it, that's beyond our responsibility now,
T. Robinson: Right.
G. Totmaw And print them up -- because that's their prerogative ,
T. Robinson: Right.
G. Totman: But I thought at the last meeting we went through it quite thoroughly and everybody
agreed that these were the changes that would be made. And from there we would set the date for the
public hearing. Did the rest of you understand it that way?
G. VanSlyke: That's what the minutes sounded like as I read them.
G. Totman: That's the way we all understood it. So if the Town Board wants to take it and do
something different with it, that is the Board's prerogative . You don't see it that way? That's the way
the system works.
T. Robinson: Hey, I know how the system works, George , What I'm saying is that there were some
things here that were written up and I know one of the statements you made , , , ,I 'm not here to be an
antagonist, I'm here to be -- to get this straight and get this straightened out so we all understand . And
when we open it up and have it all printed up and it's passed and everything, and somebody says "I
didn't know that was there, I didn't see that," or something else . . .
G. Totman: That's why we had that meeting.
T. Robinson: But that wasn't what I call a real thorough meeting in the sense that some of these
points. . . . . one of the things that bothered me a little bit is when you said we all got the minutes of your
meetings when you were working on this, if you read the minutes you don't quite understand them
unless you've got a book there looking at it and checking back and forth on what some of the changes
are being made. And so when you've got it in there and got it printed up and. . . . . .
G. Totman: Teresa. When we first started off, we did what the Town Board asked us to do. We spent
many, many hours doing it. . . .
T. Robinson: Oh, I understand that,
G. Totman: . . . and purposely we asked the Town Board at various times to meet with us as we went
along and -- correct me Board if I'm wrong -- but you're talking about a lot of people who spent a lot of
volunteer hours and we purposely made it very, very clear in our minutes that the Town Board would
talk to us or say something to us if there was something they didn't understand when we went along, so
that we wouldn't have this problem at the end, And we've done all these things throughout the whole
year and spent all this time, and asked for the joint meetings, and made sure that the Town Board got
copies of our minutes. And if there was something in there that they didn't understand at that
particular time , we would've hoped that the Board would have the courtesy to say to us, "Look, clarify
this at your next meeting so we all understand it," That was never, never done . And my feeling is that
when you ask a Board to do what they've done , and they do everything in their power to let everybody
know what's happening, and you don't hear any feedback, then I think it's kind of a slap in the face
when you get all done and present it and they say, 'Well, we don't understand what you did." To me that
is wrong, It's dead wrong,
T. Robinson: I didn't say that, George,
G. Totman: I think it's not respect for a Planning Board when you do something like that. And like
I said right now, we have officially turned it over to the Town Board . We would like to have the Town
Board pass it with the changes we made in it, and/or either pass it and make amendments they want to
make . And then have a public hearing so we can present it to the public . Does the Board agree or
disagree with that? (All Board members responded "I agree.")
12
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
G. VanSlyke: We'll be there.
T. Robinson: I've got to check and find out when it's going to be open. When is a good date for you
guys?
G. Totman: Obviously, Thursday nights because it's the night that seems to be the most open for
everybody. But the way I understood it when we left that last meeting, the only thing that held us up was
a clarification from the attorney of where the Zoning Officer took his charges to rather than go to the
Zoning Board of Appeals, He was going to get them to us so we could get them to Tracey within the next
week, And that didn't happen. I understand he was held up on that. But now that we've got that, and
we've got everything that was needed, and everybody's got a copy of it now, so that was the only thing
from the meeting that we had with the Town Board, That was the only thing when we left that meeting
that the Town Board told us we'd have to hold up on. And that's the way we left the meeting. So we don't
understand, now that we got that, what the hold up is.
T. Robinson: The holdup is my finding some time for you guys to have a hearing.
C. Twig, Just name a date.
T. Robinson: I do have a couple things that I 'm upset about, And I know that the Board is upset
about.
G. Totman: What they've got to do, Teresa, is if they are upset about something, they get together
and re-write it -- it's their prerogative. They don't have to accept anything we give them if they don't
want to.
T. Robinson: Oh, I know that.
G. Tatman: But to go a week or a month and then say "We're upset" doesn't prove anything . If they
want to change something, they can change it and then present it to the public . To just say they are
upset about things -- I mean, as far as I 'm concerned, if they were upset about it, and if they had any
respect for volunteer boards, they would have brought it to the Board when they did it, or even a month
afterwards -- not six months later.
J. Lewis: What are they upset about? That's what I don't understand.
T. Robinson: One of the things is the flag lots, Not that we're against the flag lots. . . .
G. Totman: Is the whole Board upset with it, or just one, , , , , I mean, did they vote on it.
T. Robinson: No. They didn't vote on it,
G. Totman: Okay.
T. Robinson: How could they vote on it, they weren't even there.
G. Totman: They had a meeting.
T. Robinson: The flag lot, I think, should have a separate category -- my personal viewpoint is, In
that you have flag lots in the subdivisions and, what's the other one I saw?
G. Tatman: Stop at that one . What do you mean by a separate category? What is the gain, the plus
or minus?
T. Robinson: Well, I'm not against the flag lot, but the, . . . .
G. Totman: Let me see if this makes any sense . The way 1 understand it right now they are in there
in the subdivision, and they've got to go before the Planning Board in order to get them passed. One way
or the other. If you put them into the Site Plan Review, they've got to go to the Planning Board, Either
14
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
way, the public has got to go to the Planning Board and go through the normal process, So my question .
is -- what is the public going to gain or lose by putting them in either place?
T. Robinson: Well, the one thing that bothered me when I was looking at it -- and I hadn't seen it set
up like this -- was that if I had a piece of land that was landlocked, and I wanted to put a flag lot in there,
and I did obtain my 20 or 25 feet, or whatever you have to have, to get into the flag lot, then why do I
have to go through a subdivision, or why do I have to go through the other one here, . . .
G. Totman: On a one -lot parcel , Teresa, a subdivision doesn't take any more time with the
Planning Board then a Site Plan Review.
T. Robinson: No, but I'm saying. . . . .
W Carey: Teresa. The reason we put it in there -- I mean this is why I felt we put it in there -- was
when we went to your Board, your Board was so against flag lots that we felt if we put it in something
like that then we'd be able to control the flag lots and it would help you people on the Town Board feel
more comfortable with us doing flag lots because your Board -- I mean, I was at that meeting -- no ,
George, you went with me that night and we just felt that your Board did not want flag lots, And we felt
this way, . . . .
T. Robinson: I don't think it wasn't that they didn't want flag lots -- they didn't want the way it was
being presented to be part of, . . . .
G. Tatman, The meeting she went to it hadn't been presented yet,
G. VanSlyke: Yes. This is earlier on. This is way, way back.
G. Totman: This was a year ago.
T. Robinson: We had the same feeling in the sense that you know you can have a lot up through here
-- I don't know -- I saw something, . . . .
G. VanSlyke: Are you talking about the one where they thought the trees were all going to come off,
they were going to have this thing go out and all these things coming off?
T. Robinson: Right.
G. VanSlyke: The same guy -- I'd like to ask a question , It seems to me this guy is the same one . It's
Haynes, right? Is he the one? Because he had the problem the first time , He didn't come the night
supposedly we had the meeting with the Board. He never came for clarification of any of this stuff, All
he wants to do is sit back and do nothing. He wants to sit back, and I'll say the word "bitch, " but he
doesn't want to come in and help work on this thing so he makes it work, I mean what kind of a guy is
this, anyway.
Co TWIM I talked with Haynes, Carl , one time -- not at a meeting -- I stopped and talked to him,
and he wasn't against flag lots at all then. Now earlier on he was. After we explained to him about the
flag lots and the advantages of them and the control we would have over them, he thought that was -- I
mean he went along with it,
M. Carey: That's why we set up the way we did -- to have the control plus satisfy the Board.
G. Totman: Wait a minute. So we don't get too confused in the minutes. George, I understand your
frustration, but I talked to Carl myself and Carl seemed to like this idea because we had control over it.
His concern was then that it didn't seem like we had any control over it. This was the very, very first
public hearing we had -- public meeting -- and we talked to him afterwards. His charge to me that I
thought was "put it in there where you got control over it so that everybody's got to come to the Board to
get the lot approved, and not just anybody can go out and do it. "
J. Lewls: I thought that's what we did by doing all this.
15
s.
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
G. Totman: Basically, in deference to Carl, I don't think what you're talking about, George, the
complaining or whatever, was from a year ago. And lately we haven't heard that complaint,
G. VanSlyke: We haven't heard anything from them. No response.
G. Totman: And I haven't heard any complaints. I guess what my feeling is -- I haven't heard any
complaints and I haven't seen anything in the Board minutes where they don't like what we did,
publicly or officially.
J. Lewis: I don't think flag lots is an issue. I mean, we went through this to protect this.
G. Totman, I'd personally like to see the minutes of the Board say they approve or reject this and go
for a public hearing. Not one person's -- I wouldn't want anybody to have me , as Chairman of the
Planning Board , go out and tell everybody I don't like what you're doing, because it's the Board that
makes the decision . And it's the same thing with the Town Board, So I don't think we should name any
one person. It should be brought before the Town Board and the Town Board should vote to accept or
reject it, and we go from there. If the Town Board wants the Planning Board to meet them again and go
over it all again -- I don't see why we should because we've done it -- we've over-extended ourselves to do
it. I don't think the problem that we've got, very honestly, is from the Town Board, I don't think it's
been brought to the floor for a vote to accept it and go for the public hearing, That's all I'm asking for
her to do.
G. VanSlyke: Can you be up front with us and tell us where a lot of the problems are coming from for
the flag lot? Is it more than one person on the Board?
T. Robinson: I, myself, was one of the people who, honestly. . . . .
J. Lewis: You're one person, How about who else? Is there anybody else, or is it just you?
T. Robinson: Well, I'm not going to speak for them because I don't know.
J. Lewis: You don't have to speak for them. All you have to do is tell us if there was more than
one person, I 'm not asking you to give names,
T. Robinson: Honey, let me tell you something. I can't talk about somebody who isn't there.
G. Totman: You had a quorum, didn't you?
T. Robinson: When?
G. Totman, To your last meeting.
T. Robinson: Yes,
G. Totman: You can't have a meeting without a quorum.
T. Robinson: And at that time they didn't want to do it.
G. Totman: Okay.
J. Lewis: They didn't want to vote on it?
T. Robinson: No. Because you see everybody was allover the country, , , ,
G. Totman: I know. But you had a meeting,
T. Robinson: Yes. We had a meeting. We had a quorum, But lots of times you can't be going accepting
something when they haven't got all the members there , It's not fair, It's not fair to everybody else . Or
not fair to you guys,
16
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
V. Rankin: It's not fair for those bastards to be running all over the country.
G. Tatman: Well, I guess. . . .very honestly, we had a problem about ten or fifteen years ago where the
Planning Board did the same thing and Verl was on the Town Board at that time , and they didn't act,
they didn't do anything, so the Planning Board just quit meeting until the Board did something. I'm not
suggesting that right now, but I really believe that if you're going to spend all that time, and the Board is
not going to meet or act or do anything about what you've been doing, after they asked you to do it in the
first place, then you've got a problem. And the Planning Board has got to decide do you want to go about
doing our regular business.
J. Lewis: I just want to say one thing. I joined this Planning Board not so I could come down
here and spend my time, wasting my time . I came down here because I was interested in the Town of
Groton and I wanted to learn about stuff. And the other thing is that I have some interest in how the
Town grows. And my feeling is that this Town needs some change . And it needs to have it done . And
that's why we went through all this stuff, from my understanding. So for you to sit back and say it's
fine that we don't meet, I really don't understand where that's coming from. Because you, of all people,
Teresa, have been around this Town, have been involved in this Town . And you, more than anybody,
should want to see things grow around Groton. And I'm not getting that feeling from you. And that
bothers me.
T. Robinson: You 're not getting that feeling from me? I 'll tell you why. Because I can't -- I can, I
probably can -- do this and have it done all alone.
G. Totman: No, you don't have to do it all alone .
T. Robinson: No, but I cannot get a quorum -- listen, I didn't even know if I was going to have a
quorum for the meeting last time .
G. Totman: So you don't have a meeting. But you did have a quorum, Teresa.
T. Robinson: Yes, I did have a quorum.
G. Tatman: That's all it takes is a quorum.
T. Robinson: But you have not let me finish in my conversation. I know you're upset.
G. Totman: Teresa. You're pointing your finger at me, Teresa. This whole Board is upset and the
people that we've worked with and talked with are upset because the Town Board did not do this. You
did it. That's what I 'm upset about. You have got some problems. It was never brought to a vote on the
Town Board and this Board is waiting for the Town Board to make a decision. And all we're asking for
is not because they are traveling around the country. The Town Board had a meeting. They had a
quorum. And they didn't do anything. They didn't reject it. They didn't pass it. All we're asking for is
-- if they don't like it, change it. I can't help it if Dutch is in Florida and somebody's out there . There
was a meeting and there was a quorum . And maybe next month you won't have five members there
either. Maybe in March you won't have five members. How long are we going to wait for these people to
have a full meeting? That's what's bothering us.
M. Carey, Did the members get. . . . . .
G. Totman: They got all this.
M. Carey: So if they don't feel comfortable with something, can't they call back.
G. Totman: Nobody once came back to me as Chairman, or any one of you people, and said "we
don't like what you're doing. " Nobody once did it.
C. Twim All our meetings were open meetings and we encouraged the Town Board to come to our
meetings.
J. Lewis: Exactly right.
17
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
C. Twiggy They were encouraged to come . And Dutch was the one, and I think maybe I saw you
here maybe once. . . .
G. Totman: Twice .
Co Twigg: . . . twice ,
K Carey: Lyle was.
C. Twigg: Lyle was, But the Board members -- and we've been meeting about three nights a week
for a. . . .
G. Totman: A month .
C. Twiggy . , three nights a month for a year, and no one was concerned about it. Everything was
going fine. They were getting the minutes to our meetings every week, and now we get down to where we
want to --- and now "we're confused, we don't understand it," and that was what we told you when we
were meeting that we didn't want this to happen. When we get this finished, we wanted somebody to act
on it,
T. Robinson: Right.
CO Twigg: And that isn't happening,
T. Robinson: Well, can I speak now?
Ce Twigg: Go ahead.
T. Robinson: All right. I know that you are angry -- George in particular. You made no point of
hiding it. And we've -- when I was last talking to the Board, we had agreed to have a call meeting
between us and arrange a date . Now, if you want that, all right, If you don't, why. . . . . .
G. Totman, Before you can arrange a date, Teresa, the Town Board has got to accept what we gave
them. We can't have that meeting _ until the Town Board accepts what we gave them, or changes it,
T. Robinson: Yes, but the meeting would probably not be before when?
W Carey: Well, you've got accept it at your next Town Board meeting, right?
G. Totman, Or special Board meeting, or whatever.
T. Robinson: The next Board meeting is on the 13th (Feb .) .
hL Carey: But Louie doesn't go to Florida, Carl doesn't go to Florida, and you don't, so you've got
three members. Just hold a special meeting and then. . . .
G. Totman: See, by law, you can't hold what you call a joint meeting and have the final meeting
until both boards -- I mean the Planning Board has accepted it and given it to the Town Board. The
Town Board has got to accept it and then call for the joint public hearing.
T. Robinson: We have to have a hearing, too,
C* Twim No, no, no you don't.
G. Totman: That's the reason I suggested, Teresa, that it would make it easier for the Town Board if
we held a joint meeting public hearing. The Planning Board Public Hearing and the Town Board Public
Hearing -- hold them at the same time so that we could be there and the Town Board wouldn't have to
answer questions without the Planning Board there ,
18
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
T. Robinson: Yes, But we have to have a hearing, right,
G. Totman: Yes, yes.
T. Robinson: So that's what I'm saying, So what date would you have a hearing?
J. Lewis: As soon as possible .
G. Totman: When we talked to the attorney at the last meeting -- when he left that meeting, Teresa,
he told me he thought he could have everything ready. . .
T. Robinson: He expected to be here tonight.
G. Totman: He told me when he left that meeting that as far as he was concerned, with the way that
meeting went, he could have everything ready so we could have the public hearing tonight, He said the
Town Board could pass it, agree to it at their meeting and we'd have enough time to set up for the public
hearing tonight, You're asking me when we'd like to have the public hearing?
T. Robinson: I didn't understand that he was going to have it tonight,
G. Totman: That's exactly the way we understood it when we left that day. He said his charge was to
get this to me and Tracey to include into it, go back to the Town Board January meeting, and then set
the public hearing. And he didn't see any reason, timewise, if they accepted it that night, that we could
set the meeting for tonight. We had enough legal time to do it. So if you ask me when do we want to have
It, my answer to that question would be as soon as possible so we could start working on it and get it
under motion,
T. Robinson: Our meeting is going to be the 13th , Our next meeting that we're having,
G. Totman: Second Monday.
G. Senter. The Thursday after that would be the 16th .
T. Robinson: Yes.
G. Senter. How many days, George, fourteen days before to advertise?
G. Totman: Ten, I think, You don't think it would be wise or feasible to ask Carl and Louie -- are
they the ones that are in town now?
T. Robinson: Carl gets back today. He's been in Spain, He was in South American last week. . .
G. Totman: Yes. I understand that,
V. Rankin: Cummings is coming back Monday night.
G. Totman: If they are going to change it, then they are going to do a lot of different things, But if
they want to accept what we've presented, and that was the way it was left that night, you could hold just
a short meeting and have three or four of them drop in during the day sometime. Louie works night,
doesn't he?
T. Robinson: No .
G. Totman: He works days now?
T. Robinson: Yes,
G. Totman: I don't have to tell you how to have a meeting, but it wouldn't take that long just for
them to get together and do it, If you want to wait until the February meeting, then you could have the
hearing at our regular Planning Board meeting,
19
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
J. Lewis: It won't give you enough time to advertise, Unless you advertise before they accept it.
G. Totman: No, I can't do that,
G. Seater. If you had a special meeting, you could, Jeff.
J. Lewis: But I 'm saying if they go with the 13th , that won't be a special meeting. Because our
meeting is what, the 16th you said, right?
G. Totman: Yes, that's right, too,
J. Lewis: So that won't give you ten days,
C. Twi g: We had quite a lot of special meetings, George, and we didn't get paid for them, These
guys are getting paid pretty good so it seems like one special meeting hadn't ought to ruffle their
feathers too bad.
G. Tatman: Let's not get into that, Let's leave it up to Teresa, I think we've aired it out, and I think
Teresa can handle it from here. Unless somebody's got any questions , Have you got any more
questions?
T. Robinson: No. I have a couple things that I don't agree with, but. . . . .
G. Tatman: I don't think there's anybody on the whole Planning Board who didn't always agree to
everything , And I don't think you'll ever got a document where you get ten people together and
obviously they're not going to ---unless it's something really major -- I would imagine, and I don't mean
to put this lightly, but unless it's something that somebody violently disagrees with or is going to make
a major difference in the development of the Town or something, you could debate every issue every
night.
T. Robinson: Oh, yes. It's not something that can be. . . .
G. Tatman: A lot of it is interpretation, too,
T. Robinson: But, a. . . .
G. Totman: Okay, let's a. . . .
T. Robinson: I do appreciate all the work you've done. I really do , And I thought that the dedication
should be really noted and I personally appreciate it and know how much you have worked at it. It's not
the easiest thing in the world to get done.
G. Totman, Okay. Anybody else got anything to bring up?
R. Walpole: Can I have three minutes before you leave? I 've got one quick question, Two things,
This last six or seven days we've had, between the building inspector and us, quite a -- in reference to
Federal regulations, and HUD, and George's office and the girls in the office, we have solved it with the
Department of HUD in Albany. We just got the clearance on it at 11 o'clock yesterday morning in
reference to secondary financing on the market. But the HUD engineer informed me at four o'clock on
Friday afternoon on the phone that Federal law supersedes the Town of Groton Law and the NYS
Building Code in reference to the piece of property we were in the process of selling and also being
financed because of some of the new Federal regulations involving the Department of HUD in this
Federal housing that has apparently been starting -- or this gentlemen was trying to keep his job with
HUD when ultimately the President may do away with the Department, I don't think it's the last
challenge we will run into in reference to it because at a closing this afternoon, the Village attorney,
Peter Grossman, said they are having problems with the same thing. To make a long story short, The
other question I have, going back to the flag lots only for a second in reference to financing, Correct me
if I'm wrong. If the Town of Groton does adopt the Comprehensive Plan that has the flag lot theory set
up the way it is presently right now. . . .
20
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
G. Totman: For the minutes sake, Bob , they've already adopted the Comprehensive Plan --
approving the concept. This is the Land Use Ordinance, not the Comprehensive Plan ,
IL Walpole: Well, whatever it is. In reference to page 37 where it says shared driveways. In
reference to financing, clarify this if I 'm. . . . I 've worked with flag lots in the Town of Lansing and some
in the Town of Dryden. The only documents I've ever seen in the flag lot operation involving financing
is the ones the Town Attorney, Mr. Thaler, put together that has worked and we have used the
terminology. Where it says shared driveway, if two or four flag lots are proposed in an area, a shared
driveway will be encouraged to prevent side-by-side driveways at multiple entry points to the public
road. Is it my understanding that each flag lot needs a 20- or 50-foot pole?
Ce TW1 g: Twenty-foot pole .
G. Totman: No less than 20.
C. Twlgg: Even though there's only one driveway. That's the way I read it.
IL Walpole: Okay. Right. Question. Who owns the driveway?
G. Totman: See if this makes sense to you now. If you read the Ordinance up here, it says if they
buy a lot back here and it's got three acres to it, they've got to own at least 20 feet on the major road. It
doesn't say they've got to use that 20 feet to get to the road. It says they've got to own that 20 feet. If
somebody buys a flag lot next to them, they've got to own 20 feet also. Now you've got 40 feet. We're
encouraging them to make one curb cut. Only encourage. It doesn't say it's part of the Ordinance . It
doesn't, say it's got to be enforced.
R. Walpole: I guess that's my point. The point, or maybe I misinterpreted this - - from that
standpoint I go back to the Dates subdivision where we had the 60-foot. Each of them owns -- in this
case it could be 20 feet -- but had it so they had a private driveway feeding each one of those houses for
bank financing. So they'd have legal access to the property.
G. Totmam But the difference here, Bob, with what we're doing and this property here, is this was a
private road approved by the Town, signed by the Town and the Town attorney so there was access then
to their properties according to the Town Zoning Ordinance was on the private road and not on the
main highway.
R. Walpole, Go back under the Site Plan Review here in the Town of Groton in case a problem like
this arose, can this be done on a private road type of operation that had no Town responsibility, but
was still legal for financing? That's my question, I guess. I was mislead with two or three of them with
the same shared pole.
G. Totman0 Basically, what we're saying is that we require them to have the road frontage, but
what we're saying is we're not requiring them or telling them where they can drive out to the road. We're
encouraging them to make one road cut instead of four.
IL Walpole, I understand that.
G. Totman: But what you're talking about with this other deal is that they allow on a private road
up to four lots. And if it's sixty feet wide, that means that each one of them only has 15 feet. Where the
Ordinance says they have to have 20 feet. Because they have an approved private road, now their
frontage is on the private road. Does that make sense to you?
IL Walpole: Yes. Okay. But still, going back, and I'm not sure from an attorney's standpoint -- and I
wish Fran was here because he could have answered that.
G. Totman: The only intent here was to encourage people if you've got two or three flag lots out
there , encourage them to have one for safety entering the highway.
21
�e
Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
R. Walpole: I understand that, but addressing the issue which I cannot answer and I don't know if
anyone here in the room can -- what about financing for legal access?
G. Totman: Banks? Well, we're saying they have to have 20 feet of legal access.
C. Twiggy They've got legal access, whether they use it or not.
R. Walpole: Okay.
G. Totman, Even if they do this, and they get their flag lot and they got their legal access, it might
be behind their mother's house. They might use their mother and father's driveway to get to the thing,
but rather than use this -- but they've got a legal lot because they've got the access.
R. Walpole, Question. Is this the same policy you use in the Town of Lansing? I'm just curious on
financing.
G. Totman: The difference over there is they are encouraging everybody to use shared driveways.
Even on subdivisions. They are doing it on subdivisions over there, too . They're encouraging them to
use shared driveways to stop the curb cuts. That's a big thing with a lot of people. You're getting this
from. . .
T. Robinson: That's one of the things that bothers me when we're talking about it. Not that you're
having them, but the idea that I would hate like the dickens to see four little cuts in the road.
G. Totman: That's why we're encouraging a shared driveway. You're getting this idea from the
seminars you 're going to, from the State people , and from the Planning Federation around the
countryside they are encouraging this from a highway standpoint for safety.
C. TWIW I don't think for the financing part --- they might say well you don't have your own
driveway down through there, they would have to say it would cost so much to put a driveway back to
my property. We will only loan you up to -- in other words we're going to deduct the cost of putting in a
driveway.
R. Walpole: I guess the question I'm not clear on is in the secondary market. So much of the stuff is
going into secondary financing because all the stuff is starting to change . And we're running into that
this week in reference to a sale right here in the township. The secondary laws are different. And I
don't know, and Fran maybe can answer that, from the standpoint of legal access even though there's
four people that share the driveway. . . .
G. Totman: What I'm saying here, Bob, is that we're putting it in there to encourage them. If the
bank says you 've got to have a driveway, they are not going to share it because the bank tells them
they've got to have their own driveway. That's our intent. The intent of it is that way.
R. Walpole: Okay. All right. I guess that was the other thing. Second question, and then I 'll get out
of your hair. If the Town passes the law as it stands right now -- are we in the position to go to the
private road, possibly what we did on the Dates subdivision -- we've got some property that is real low
on road frontage, but real baffled out. Are we in the position to put that into a Site Plan Review here at
the Planning Board?
G. Totman: Not unless that is put into this. Because that is strictly a Town Board decision as I
understand it. Around the country there's a lot of town boards that are doing this because the love it.
They don't have to maintain the roads and the people have to maintain their own driveways. The
people do it because they like privacy and the boards love it because they don't have to build the roads
for it. As I understand it, if you go to more than four then you have to go to an association which costs a
bundle of money to get involved in. So if you hold it to just four, then you can do it privately between
the Town Attorney and the Town Board and each person signs this into their deed so if anybody wants
to develop the land behind them further, they say they cannot sell that land , they have to
automatically turn it over to the town. We've done quite a few of them.
22
' Town of Groton Planning Board January 19, 1995
R. Walpole: In the seminars they encourage this. What we were looking for was some kind of
particular item on the South Main Street project. I was trying to get a feel for. . . .
G. Totman: When they want to do something like that, they come to the Zoning Officer and he says
I want to sell four lots out here but I only have this. He says you go to the town attorney, the town
board, and get them to approve of your private road and then we'll submit it to the planning board for
subdivision . . . . . that's the way it's been working as I understand it.
T. Robinson: That's different from. . . . .
G. Totman: Completely different. Are you familiar with the Carl Dates property he 's talking
about?
T. Robinson: Oh yes.
G. Totman: That's exactly what they did . That was one of the very first ones they did. Since then
they've done a lot of them over there. It was almost a mile back into the large lots. They wouldn't let
them sell any more than four lots so that's the way it was auctioned off. If those people who bought
those large lots want to subdivide them after that, they've got to make the road a legal town road up to
that point. The developers pay for it and build it to town specs up to that point. There are other areas
there -- only one of them so far who bought those three great big parcels has done that. Now they are in
the process of a preliminary review for the one who bought the center parcel. We've done about five
other ones since there. It's not something the normal planning board has the expertise to do . It has to
be done through the town attorney.
C. TWIM Would it simplify things if they come to us? And we sent them to the Town Attorney,
The Town Board has trouble getting a quorum, . . . it would save the Town Board one step.
G. Totman: No, Cecil. See if this makes sense . You want to do it, okay? The normal thing for you
to do is go to the Zoning Officer. He says the only way that can be done is to have a legal document
drawn up, Go to the Town Attorney. He draws up the legal document and presents it to the Town Board
and gets the agreement . Then the Town Supervisor, Town Attorney, and the applicant sign it. The
Board approves it. Then it goes to the Planning Board . Otherwise, if they go to the Planning Board first
they would be wasting 30 days.
Ce TWI g; Okay.
G. Totman: Okay. Anything else?
R. Walpole: No .
G. Totnun: One other thing -- Carol says we're supposed to make a motion that we keep on having
our meetings on the third Thursday of every month for publication.
V. Rankin: I make the motion,
J. Lewis: I second it.
G. Totman: Then we retain our normal schedule of having our meetings on the third Thursday of
every month . Do you all agree with the motion? (All agreed.) I move for adjournment at 9: 33 .
K Carey: I second it.
Respectfully submitted,
4
I
Joan E. Fitch
Recording Secretary
23