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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1994-10-06 TOWN OF GROTON PI ANNING BOARD Thursday, 6 October 1994 Board Members (*present) Others Present *George Totman, Chairman Tracey Smith , Tompkins County *Monica Carey Planning Dept. Circuit Rider Sheldon Clark Lyle Raymond, Chairman , Town Jeffrey Lewis of Groton ZBA Verl Rankin *Cecil Twigg George Van Slyke The purpose of the meeting was to continue the review/revision of the Town of Groton's Land Use & Development Code, adopted September 10, 1990. This review is being accomplished with the assistance of the Tompkins County Planning Department, represented by Tracey Smith. This meeting was to complete a review of Article & Land Use Regulations. , Section 341 - Land Use Activities, and start the revision of the Town Zoning Map. G. Totman: Let's call this meeting to order. (Time: 7 : 43 p .m . ) Anybody hear me? (Everyone continues their discussion of a silver fox.) Do you want that on the tape? Okay, at the last meeting, those of us who attended. . . M. Carey: Which was very few. G. Totman: went back through Section 341 . You've got a copy of what was done in the minutes. If you have the thing Tracey just gave you, that's. . .what I had Tracey do was re-type this up what we had to go along with what we did at our last meeting. This is the current one. Throw the other one out and keep this one . I want to briefly go over to see if they agree or disagree with what was done at our last meeting. To be very honest with you, we can bring it to a vote -- there's three of us here and only two of us did it and those two are here and we both agree, so the only other person who's here , his vote won't count anyway because he's over-ruled . So if you want to bring it to a vote we will. C. Twigg: I didn't read that too close, but I see where you deleted a couple things like the dog kennel . G. Totman: Yes, Okay. We only deleted it in the Industrial district, if you read that close . We're not encouraging it -- if we're holding an area for industrial , we're not encouraging putting kennels in there . Co Twigg:. That was just in the Industrial district? G. Totman: See the I with an asterisk? C. Twiggy Yeah , G. Totman: If you'd have read it closer before you complained you wouldn't have misunderstood that. Cecil says he doesn't understand this _ _ _ _. C. Twigg: Now that's just in the Industrial Zone? G. Totman: If you'll look where it says "delete" she's got the zone in here where it was deleted. CO Twigg: Now that was the same with the ECHO Housing? G. Totman: Yes. Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 C. 1ww Okay, Now I understand it a little better. Under Group Occupancy, it says "Satisfactory as presented, except:" G. Totman: You 're looking at the minutes. We added a new one "Two-Family Dwelling Units, Owner Occupied" in there where it wasn't in there before. C. Tavim Where did you see that? G. Totman: Down to the bottom of the page there -- look over at what Tracey prepared. M. Carey: (Reading) "Two -Family Dwelling Units , Owner Occupied" - - "Two-Family Dwelling Units, Not Owner Occupied." G. Totman: There's a difference . M. Carey: Oh , really. G. Totman: I said that for Cecil's benefit. Shut up, Monica -- you had your say last week. M. Carey: Yes, but the tape broke! G. Totman. For example, you live in a fairly dense neighborhood and if you allow two-family dwelling units, that means the character of the neighborhood is going to change because there is going to be renters there who may stay six months or a year. It won't be the camaraderie of a neighborhood -- you know, homeowners. So we didn't allow that in certain areas, but on areas where two-family owner occupied that means they can have a grandmother apartment, an apartment for their daughter, or if you want to go to Florida in the winter, you can rent out an apartment to have someone watch over your place while you're gone. But in order to have it legal in that district, some family member has to live in the house . That makes a big difference . Does everybody agree? If you all agree to that, then we'll move on because our goal tonight -- we've got all these things now, and you've got to bear in mind when you look over the map -- and we'll start doing that tonight -- I hope you brought all your maps with you -- when you say that this area is going to be low or medium or dense or whatever, you've got to make sure that that area of the map is where you want it in. M. Carey: Can we take our shoes off and relax? G. Totman: This means obviously that the map has got to be changed to quite some extent. T. Smith: For that, I brought a map from the plan that shows areas that would be better for low intensity and high intensity. C. lhvlgg: We don't need to get our maps out? G. Totman: That's just to give you a guideline. Just so you know where somebody other than us decided where low intensity or high intensity should or shouldn't be. M. Carey: It says low intensity here and everything's all white . I thought it was supposed to be Rural Agricultural all that white . T. Smith: This is done with the Master Plan. G. Totman: These are the areas that are already Low Density, C. Twigg: Rural Agricultural would be Low Density? G. Totman: That map really doesn't have roads on it either. T. Smith: It's pretty level land with dry soils and things like that. L. Raymond: Let's just post the whole d_ _ _ thing around the boundaries and tell them to stay outl 2 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 C. 1wia He's something else, isn't he? G. Totman: As we were talking before. . . . L. Raymond: Sorry, George. G. Totman: As we were talking when we first started this -- what do we do first, the map or the activities? When we decide what activities should go where, now you're going to look at the map and say where do you want a Low Density -- are you listening to me? -- what you might. . . Co Twiggs I found my map. Now I know where I'm at. . . . G. Totman: I doubt it. I just want you to bear in mind that when you look at the map and say "I want it low here , etc ." we probably will have to go back over this almost item by item now that we see where the map shows Low Density and Medium Density, are these areas where we want something into -- like a double check before we finally put it to rest. Does that make sense to you? Okay. L. Raymond: I don't see how they got High Intensity over in here towards Groton City somehow? Here's the curve in the road here right near Alexander's and it goes up. . . T. Smith: There's probably more development potential. . . . L. Raymond: That's what I 'm wondering. Along Champlin Road there you don't call that High Intensity. G. Totman: This was done by the nature of the soils and the terrain of the land . L. Raymond: Okay. I see. On this little map it shows that. G. Totman: The soils in that particular area in the hills or non-hills -- this would be good for that particular area. It's not saying it's there now. Okay, if anyone's got a better idea on how and when to start, please come forward . M. Carey. Crop Farming is allowed in everything. Okay. How come none of us have a colored map? L. Raymond: It's in your Master Plan. G. Totman: How come you didn't bring it with you? And I can't complain, because I didn't bring mine either. L. Raymond. Are there any more copies around here? Probably not. M. Carey. I'll go home and get mine, okay? G. Totman: No -- you'll never come back! Tracey, did you come up with an idea how to approach this? T. Smith: I guess the best thing is to look at what's on this map now and see if it makes sense, to start with. G. Totman: Okay, let's start with the McLean-Cortland Road area. Right now, if you look at that, outside of the perimeter of the center of the five corners, they're calling that Low Density all the way to Cortland. We've had some problems with that because it really should be Rural Agricultural, I think. In Rural Agricultural we allow a little more side businesses and stuff than we do in Low Density. In that area out there, it's not really Low Density. C. lwigg: Where are you talking about? 3 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 L. Raymond: He's talking about the road here L. Raymond: He's talking about the road here that goes out of McLean and goes up to the County Line . G. Tatman: Well, let's pick West Groton. I don't care . I just want to get started someplace . I don't want to be here to midnight. L. Raymond: . . that's marked Residential out there and there's one commercial marked down there . M. Carey: What's commercial way out there? C. 1VW That's existing, right? L. Raymond: That's existing. That's what's there now. That's what George is talking about. And then we got zones here out to --- why don't you come down here , George, and join the rest of us at this map . Okay -- they got residential here and they got one commercial marked in here . M. Carey: That must be the lawnmower place. G. Totman: Tom Strait -- Tom Strait Is place . (Recording Secretary not familiar with names, so will spell them phonetically as necessary.) He never really got a site plan. He just built it. M. Carey: That's where they sell the tractors? G. Totman: What I'm saying is -- that goes all the way to the Cortland County line. We've had some people go to the ZBA Board who wanted to start a little small business . Remember the one, for example, the one who wanted to sell knack-knacks out of her living room on the McLean-Cortland Road and she was just over the line from a medium in a low? And she could see the Elm Tree from her house, but since she was over the medium and just into the low she couldn't sell stuff. We massaged it at the time and made it legal, but we shouldn't have to do things like that. CO Twigg: We could get caught up like Clinton. G. Totman: I don't thing it's intended in the country to stop people from selling something as long as they meet the Site Plan Review thing. In that particular case, it wasn't even allowed under Site Plan Review, L. Raymond: Look at this. They've got residential all the way up to here. If you look on the map, you see that must have been since this map was. . . . G. Totman: Well this is the way it actually is and that's not a kind of zoning. L. Raymond: I know. That's what I 'm saying. It looks like to me, in some ways, that according to this map existing is more residential than this is over here in some places. G. Totman: It is. L. Raymond: So we might better, instead, have a leg of this extended up here. G. Totman: I don't know where Joanie got her figures from to make this map. T. Smith: I think they are assessor's data. L. Raymond. As to how the lots are categorized? T. Smith: Yes. G. Totman: If you're looking at it, and knowing that area, why that comes out there with that yellow off the LaFayette Road -- it shows a little development out in there - - there isn't any. 4 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 Ce TWI g: Well probably that guy that lives there at the top of Cemetery Hill. . . G. Totman: No, it's beyond the top of Cemetery Hill. Cemetery Hill is down here. C. Twigg: That's the cemetery. . . L Raymond: That's the church. . . . Ce TWI g; That's the top of the hill. . . . . It's about where that house is at the top of the hill, isn't it? G. Totman: That would be right there, Cecil. Right there. We're talking about over the hill, beyond Stevens Road. Believe me, it's up the road from my house. Ce TWI g: Is that where that guy's got that little golf range? G. Totman: That's right there. It's a private road. CO TVIW Well that must be almost to Tillotson's. G. Totmam No, he's across the road from the cemetery -- right in there. CO Twigg: Where's Tillotson's? G. Totman: I would say Tillotson's would be about down in here . L. Raymond: So this is across from Tillotson's? G. Totman: Yes. Somewhere around across from Tillotson's. M. Carey: Can we subdivide land up until Tillotson's property? G. Totman: Along the road, but not in that spot up in there. There's no subdivision there . We can pick this apart all night long, but my point was be careful in going by these because that's not right. I know it isn't. There's nothing there. There's some houses along through here, but nothing that comes off like that right there. Right at the top of the hill where it shows all this development through here, there's one house here and there's a house down here where they've got a bed and breakfast, and then Tillotson's little small house down here. That's all that's in there . Period. L. Raymond: Well they're showing that because that's the lot that the house is on probably extends back like that, right? G. Totman: There is one house down here that goes back into there, but if we look at this. . . . L. Raymond: But that doesn't mean the house is back there, I don't think. If you said they did it by the assessment map . . . . Look over here on Old Stage Road. This is my neighborhood over here and look at all this that goes way back there. That's where Jeffries' place . . . and these in here across from the water works. See how they've got that? That's obviously because those lots just extend back in there, that doesn't mean . . . . . CO Zwlgg± there's anybody living there . L. Raymond: No, but the lot is classified, am I right?, is classified residential on the assessment because that's what it is being used for. T. Smith: Right. L. Raymond: You can see that in some of these lots over here , too. It must be that they're not doing any farming. 5 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 Ce TWI g: Nobody lives out in here. L. Raymond: Right. C. 11WIM But the people that own this own the rest of it. L. Raymond: So the question is, isn't it George, how do we treat this? If it's classified on the assessment as residential, and the person who's living on that land -- even though it's more land than he's using and obviously that's all he's devoting it to -- he or she, I should say to be correct -- then how do we regard that in terms of zoning? It's probably never going to go to commercial farming. Not if the lot is already owned by somebody -- that's probably a five-acre lot in there, maybe -- it's unlikely that it's ever going to go back to commercial farming. It's probably going to stay somewhere in the non- farm category, I would guess. G. Totman: On our zoning map, we call that Rural Agricultural anyway. L. Raymond: Yes, I know but. . . Ce TW199: Like this here in West Groton . That's mine right there. There are 42 acres there in that yellow streak there. There's one house on it. L. Raymond: Right. That's yours. There's the same thing over here on Clark Street over next to us. There's our piece going back in here and then they've got those houses over there on Clark Street. There's nobody back in there -- it's all woods in there . Ce TWIM There's ,just one house on that big yellow spot right there. The back part is swamp and is only occupied by beavers -- there's a beaver house back there. L. Raymond: How do the assessment people come up with these ratings? Do you know? T. Smith: I'm not sure . I think they must have done it a really long time ago and then when something changes they find out about it because of the building permits. and that sort of thing because that all goes to them. G. Totman: Can I answer that question? C. Twlgg: If you're smart enough . G. Totman: When someone comes in and applies for a building permit, they fill out an application . Once the permit is approved, the copy of that application as to what you 're going to use that for goes to the assessment department. So when they do their assessment rolls they put it in there as "one-family residential, mobile home , two-family residential, commercial" or whatever. That's how they do it. It's from the building permits. Now you're going to say -- what about the place that's never had a building permit? They obviously have gone around, when the re-assess everybody, they've picked it up and correlated it together. L Raymond: Now if I'm on a farm and, like some of them do and they've got a son or a daughter, and they put another house up next door -- and they've got lots of frontage -- they apply for it and it's marked on there that it's going to be for a residence . But the fact is, the farm is all being run together by the family, so that would be a farm. G. Totman: In most cases when that happens, Lyle, the farmer gives that acre of land to the son or daughter. In most cases. . . Monica's shaking her head . M. Carey: Not in our case. G. Totman: I didn't say every case. All I 'm telling you is -- if you were from a family of three or four kids and your father or mother says you can have an acre of land over here , you can build a house. Are you going to build a house on this land where if your mother or father should die of a heart attack 6 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 or whatever, everybody's going to own part of your land? Your wife would say -- wait a minute, I didn't marry the whole family, I married you . And what we're going to do with this is make equity for ourselves. It wouldn't make any sense for them at all to build a nice $ 100, 000 house on property they don't own. And in most cases, even if you don't do that, the Health Department requires you to set aside a certain spot so that when they design the septic system they have to have a 150-foot radius and you have to show them when you get your construction permit for that that's the land designated for that. And that goes to the Assessment Department, L. Raymond: Then what I'm hearing then is that this is not that distorted then. If these lots are what they applied for and are based on that, then that's pretty accurate information, isn't it? T. Smith: It should be. L. Raymond: So if this lot you're talking about here, north of McLean, even though it's five acres, it was applied for and designated on there that that was going to be all residential according to the permit, the Health Department, and all that stuff. G. Tatman: Think about this for a minute. I'm trying to think on how we can move along and not look at every yellow spot on that map . L. Raymond: Well, I 'm looking at patterns here, and I see a pattern. If there's just one lot there, that's one thing. But you're talking about extending out of McLean and here it is in this continuous yellow strip along there all the way out to that lot there. I was just saying that maybe we should extend the Medium Density out to there . And maybe over here, where you 're talking about on this other road, in fact, and some of you are right, it doesn't show near as much yellow as it does on that one. Maybe we should cut back the Medium Density on the one going towards Cortland and add to it on the one going towards LaFayette. G. Totman: In reality, Lyle, off this road here there's more houses than there is on that road . You go out this road here and it's trailer haven all the way out through there. You drive up this road, even though it shows yellow, it means that the land is there . Somewhere in there is a house , but they are sometimes a quarter of a mile apart on this road. And there isn't over there . But this shows it more densely populated than this is. That's what I 'm trying to say. L. Raymond: Are we zoning by houses, or. . . . . G. Totman. That's what I was getting to when you interrupted me . Zoning is what you're going to plan for for the next five, ten, twenty years. There's going to be some areas where you've got a pattern started, or whatever. This is where you run into problems sometimes with people . But bear in mind that if you look at what we're allowing here, we are not being anywhere as restrictive as to what you can and cannot do as most towns are. L. Raymond: I agree with you . G. Totman: And you have to bear that in mind when you're saying this. I'm willing to do it any way you want to do it, but when we start doing it that way, I think we're going to end up with a three- hour session and only get up one road or so. But if you look at the areas, and everyone is pretty much familiar with the Town, maybe up to where those roads are we could make it Low Density to just past the top of the hill and the cemetery in the McLean area because there's a pattern going up there -- but don't go too far with it because Rural Residential goes farther up than that. Like I say. Where do you start? That's the only reason I picked that road. We could pick any road to start on. L. Raymond: Well I hate to see it rushed through too because these kind of things, as you've already pointed out, we're playing around with people's livelihoods, people's property. Perhaps we should give some thought to this. G. Totman: That's what zoning is all about. 7 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 L. Raymond: I know. But I hear what you're saying too. If we look at all these yellow spots here, it's all rural zoning, Rural Agricultural up in here . And these lots are bigger than the ones down in McLean . G. Totman: Just because all that yellow's there, that doesn't mean you want to make that all Low Density, Low Density means you can't have a business, you can't have a repair shop or anything else. You really can't go by that. Although, you can look at that and get an idea where it is going. L Raymond: But then we come back to McLean, the one you know best as anybody, and we talk about making adjustments in this thing. We've still got the same problem here, even when you cut it back or if you add to. I don't know what to do with it to tell you the truth. G. Totman: How would it be if we do it this way? First of all we've got to realize , going from this, what we're allowing. Because it makes a difference what you 're allowing as to where the district is going to be. If you have a good thought in mind what medium means. Now medium , the way ours is written, and this is important, it means you're allowing more in line with little small commercial things than you are in any other district. A little bit different that some ordinances, but that's the way this one is set up right now. So you. . . L. Raymond: Actually, I was saying "medium" wasn't I . 1 want to correct myself. That's Low Density going out of McLean . Medium is just in the middle of town here . I should have been saying Low Density. G. Totman: Let's start from the center of McLean. We'll take that corner of the town . Right around the center of McLean, you'll notice on your map that it's Medium Density. But that maps are really not clear as to how far that goes in either direction . L Raymond: Absolutely. G. Totman: So I think when we do this we've got to go step -by-step when we do it. First of all, decide how far that Medium Density is going to go around the square. As I remember the original ordinance, that was supposed to have been 1000 feet from each direction from the center of the square. This was to protect the businesses already there, and to encourage businesses in that area so they don't have to come in and ask for a variance or whatever. I think rather than going around the bush and talking all over the town, would it be agreeable to everybody to take like that for instance -- do we all want to have that Medium 1000 feet from the square in any direction? Is that something we want to live with? Or start off with? Then look at the Low Density starting outside of there where we want to stop off to Agricultural. We've got to start someplace. So if we start from the center of the square, we make that Medium for a 1000 or 1500 feet in each direction make sense? If it does, let's put that in the minutes and write it down . L. Raymond: I don't have a good concrete idea in my mind where that 1000 feet would end up. C. Twlgg: That would be up past the cemetery, wouldn't it? L. Raymond: What we need are some USGS maps here -- some quads to use. M. Carey: On the McLean Road, would 1000 feet take you up by the top of the hill? Ce TWIM A thousand feet would take you past where that gal we were talking about, George. G. Totman: Yes, I know it would. That map doesn't have footage on it. Well, it's got a scale, but I don't have a ruler with me . What number we talking about here? Are we talking about 38 and 39? L. Raymond: There's an inch to a thousand, two thousand feet. We can do it, because an inch equals 2000 feet. So if we put a half inch around the town from there we've got. . . . . CO TWI g: A half inch you've got 1000 feet. G. Totman: Yes. We can do that. I don't have any ruler. 8 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 C. Twiggy You want me to go out in the car and get one? G. Totman: For example, that's the Elm Tree land right there . L. Raymond: There's about 300 right to there -- little more than 300 -- about 350, We're going to go out into here somewhere. M. Carey. Would 1000 feet be out by Dick Haynes' farm? G. Totman: We're looking at the other direction right now. L. Raymond: Yes. A thousand's going to go out here a little past that I think, but not too much. G. Totman: Right these numbers down, Monica -- somebody. 230, 50, 2309 509 799 669 829 75 , 609 56, and 145, What do they come to? It's about 4. 75 inches, and an inch equals 200 feet on this map . I don't know how she's going to take the minutes for this. J. Fitch* It would help if when you point to a place on your map , you would reference the location when you speak. When the notes are transcribed, you'd have the information. G. Totman: So a thousand feet gives you an idea -- let's go out the other way. M. Carey: Where's a thousand feet going out by you, George? G. Tatman The thousand feet goes almost to my driveway. I remember way back when we did this thing that's where it came to. J. Fitch: George, your figures add up to 1123. G. Totman. Thanks, Joan. One inch equals 200 feet, so five feet is 1000 feet, right? Or five inches. So if you go out towards Carl Haynes, or Dick Haynes, 500 feet comes about to where the Episcopal (?) Cemetery was. You know the lady who wanted to sell the stuff out of her living room? Just beyond her house. Her house is right here. C. Twigg: Why do you have to adjust things for her, then? G. Totman: I 'm not. I'm just giving you an idea where 1000 feet is. I was sure when she came in and applied that she didn't have to come and apply; I thought she fell within that 1000 feet, but on the maps it doesn't show that. They just drew lines and didn't put any figures down. So when we do this, we've got to put it in so we can go back and look it up if there's a question. Okay, what I 'm saying is starting from the center of those five corners, if somebody wants to use a different figure other than 1000 feet for the medium area. . . . like 1000 feet going up Golf Hill Road will take you just about to the railroad tracks or the County line. In the other direction, 500 feet takes you right up to about the center of the schoolhouse. CO TWIW A thousand isn't very much , really. L. Raymond: He mistakenly said 500 feet. He means 1000. G. Totman: In the other direction, it takes you about to where Jack Miller lives if you know where that is. Where the fire truck sits out there all the time. This is on Stevens Road, And 1000 feet up Church Street takes you just to the corner of my property, before you get to Haynes. Ce Twim Maybe you ought to be talking more than a thousand, then. G. Totman: Cecil-- remember -- we're only talking about Medium Density so we can offer different kinds of businesses. You go by this chart we made up showing what you're allowing in Medium -- stores, not private buildings, side things -- where you are encouraging that type of business. 9 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 Ce TWI g: What did we change? Did we change it so that lady could have what she wanted without being Medium Density? G. Totman: Why do you want to make things for that lady? C* TWI g: I don't want to make things for that lady, I thought you were talking about "like that lady. " M. Carey. Because we're allowing that kind of stuff in Rural, Medium, and Low. C. lwigg; We're allowing that in Low now. Okay. G. Totman: But this 1000 feet takes it . . . . her property would have been in the other. But in the same token, we didn't allow that in Low the way the activities were written up in the old ordinance . Now under this new one we are allowing them in Low. So she could have been on either side of the fence . Okay? Take a Low district on that particular road there, that takes you about half the way up the hill in that area. Take 2000 feet Low Density and then let the rest of that road all the way towards Cortland be Rural Agricultural. Does that make sense? L. Raymond: Wait a minute now. Let's recapitulate . I want to make sure I understood this right. You're saying 1000 feet for Medium and then another 500 for Low? Or were you saying 500 for Medium and another 500 for Low so you've got a total of 1000? G. Totman: I said 1000 feet for Medium. L. Raymond: Okay, a thousand total for the Medium, and another 500 for the low beyond that? G. Totman: Another thousand . L. Raymond: So for 2000 total that's not RA? G. Totman: That's right. L. Raymond: It's either Low or Medium Density that 2000 feet? G. Totman: That's right. The first thousand is Medium, the second thousand is Low, and the rest of it is RA. L. Raymond: Okay. By doing that, we're going to extend the Low Density out to anticipate it is going to grow along those roads because that's the direction things are going in already. I guess I like that. G. Totman: Get it all so we can put it down on something. We can look at it afterwards. L. Raymond: Because this is all going to be reviewed in hearings and everything. G. Totman: We want to have it as near right as possible so we don't have to change it when we have the hearing; then you'd have to have another public hearing if we do. T. Smith: How wide a strip along the roads do you want? L Raymond: Well these strips along the road -- does it say how far back from the road? It probably doesn't, does it? G. Totman: The generally accepted thing is 250 feet back from the road . L Raymond: We need to anticipate something here . If we're going to have it fixed so flag lots can go in, there are people who are going to have long pieces of property going back. G. Totman: The ones that I `ve seen, most of them are 250 feet. I would say 500 feet. 10 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 L. Raymond: That's what I was getting at here. G. Totman: Because that way if you have your flag lots or somebody's got a long lot, and they want to whatever, as long as the part up front is doing what it's supposed to be doing in that district, you aren't going to get in trouble if you allow 500 feet back. Anybody got any better ideas? C. TWIM Sounds good. X Carey: Sounds good to me, too. C. Twiggy Because that industrial thing we've got up on 222. Nobody really knows how deep that is . G. Totman: While we're talking about this, and for the minutes we'll read later on, let's use that 500 feet as a guideline so we don't have to keep bring it back up -- from the road . C. TWIM Unless otherwise specified, it's 500 feet. G. Totman: That's right. Now, from that point on -- taking care of that one particular road -- from that point on it will be Rural Agricultural. If that's okay the way we're doing it, let's just do . . . . L. Raymond: So, in a sense, we're doing a thousand-foot long strip, 500 feet wide, going each way out 2000 feet. G. Totman: It will allow the things that are allowed in the Low Density area. Rural Agricultural is open. L Raymond: I know. But I hate to be persnickety (defined by Webster as "Child's word for PARTICULAR" too particular or precise; fastidious, fussy; showing , or requiring extremely careful treatment"), but we've run into that before . If somebody wants to run that 500 feet, where's it going to go? Are we going to measure from the centerline of the road. . . . G. Totman: What was that word you used awhile ago? L. Raymond: Persnickety. G. Totman: When I ran for the Board, I said we got enough of these Cornell people on the Board -- I can't understand them. L. Raymond: Persnickety didn't come from Cornell. That came from up north on the farm! That pre-dated anything I ever did at Cornell . C. Twigg: So that won't come out of McLean too far. We'll change that. G. Totman: Wait a minute. Let me go back to Lyle's question. L. Raymond: I can just see coming before the ZBA somebody who wants to go back on a flat lot thing and it has to do something with what zone is it in. And they say, no, this zone starts at the edge of the road right-of-way, and if we don't specify -- how many feet wide is the road? C. Twigg: I'd measure from the centerline . G. Totman: Time -- time -- time. Everything used to be from the center of the road. Even deeds and everything else. Nowadays when you are doing new surveys they are always going from the road right- of-way because you don't really own that road. You can't do anything with it. You can do nothing in the road right-of--way. My feel is, when we set up things, looking into the future, we do everything from the road right-of-way. L. Raymond: The edge of it. Right. That's exactly what I was going to suggest. 11 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 C. 1`wiM You better specify that, then. L. Raymond: That's the point. We better specify it before somebody comes before the ZBA on some darn thing. G. Totman: Because if you're going from the road, you're cutting down that 500 feet, number one. You're going from the center of the road. And all roads are not the same length or width . Ce TW1 g: None of them is the same length apparently. AL Carey: Another good one. What was that you said, George? Is that in the minutes? I didn't get to hear that. G. Totman: In fact, some towns have 50-foot right-of-ways, some towns have 60 feet; the County is usually 66, and a State road varies all over the place . So if we go from the road right-of-way, it doesn't make any difference whether it varies or not, your road ROW, whatever it shows there, is the guideline. Everybody agree to that? That takes care of that big word, Lyle . Why don't you agree with it, Cecil? Co Twigg: It ought to be from the centerline and then just make it 500. . . . . G. Totman: But you can't. . . . Ce TWiW But you know where the centerline of the road is. You don't have to ask any questions. And the right of way, just like you said, is different wherever you go. The centerline is always the same place. L. Raymond: But you can always tell the ROW edge, too, Cecil . If you know where, the centerline is, it's always so far from the centerline. CO Twiggy Well it depends on if its a County road, State road, Town road . . . L. Raymond: Absolutely. C. Twigg Like he said -- they are all different. G. Totman: Let's not spend all night on it. Let's just vote on it. Does. . . CO TWI g: But everybody knows where the centerline is. L. Raymond: But you're cheating somebody if you take it from the centerline of the road . C. Twigg; Just call it 550 feet then. G. Totman: In the Town of Groton, the ROW is 50 feet; Town of Lansing is 60, Most County roads are 66. We can argue over it all night long -- I think we ought to go from the road ROW. I 'll make that motion. Does somebody want to second that motion? L. Raymond: If I can vote, I 'll second it. G. Totman: Yes you can. We made him a voting member one night. For just this purpose. Do you remember that? Okay. Now if you want to vote it down, we'll do it some other way. It's the only way we can do it, Cecil. C. 1wiW Okay. Do it. Do it. Do it. G. Totman: Does everybody agree? Say so. M. Carey. Yes. 12 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 CO TVdW No . L. Raymond: Yes. G. Totman: Anybody opposed? C. Twlgg:: Yes. G. Totman: Three to one . It passed. Now we're going to move on. Now let's go up Golf Hill Road. That's going out of McLean towards Route 13, Bear in mind now, that you hit the Town Line at just about 1000 feet. X Carey: Well that would take care of that. G. Totman: There's only one business out there right now. That's where the old railroad tracks went through . Randolph Pump, M. Carey: Wasn't there a bed and breakfast going to start out there? G. Totman: But they didn't though. And even those would have been allowed in Low Density, see . But to encourage -- you're talking about setting a plan up -- what's there is all legal. You're not going to scare anything away or anything like that. But what you 're saying is if somebody wants to buy a couple of those old houses or whatever there, we're encouraging them to have businesses located as near to the center of town as possible . I would recommend leaving that Medium Density. I think it shows it on the map that way now. Anybody against leaving that Medium Density up to that corner? C. Twigg: No . G. Totman: Are you going to be a poor loser? Going out School Street now -- 1000 feet takes you . . . M. Carey: Which one is School Street? G. Totman: The one the school's on. Church Street is the one the church is on. M. Carey: George -- I've got a message for you. . . . G. Totman: A thousand feet from the square takes you right to about where the driveway is leading to the school. And that's the way it is now and I would suggest leaving it that way. Everybody agree to that? Okay. Going out Stevens Road, 1000 feet takes you out to, . . . .not to Jack Miller's house . . . I was wrong. Five-hundred feet doesn't even take you to Cemetery Lane. It only takes you about half way -- I mean 1000 feet. You know where the house that's going to be sold Saturday at auction is? It takes you to where they start getting thinner. I have no problem with leaving that as it is. So the Church Street part -- you know where 1000 feet takes it to -- right up to where Maps 39 and 38 meet. Remember, we 're only talking about Medium Density now. Now Low Density up that road. . . . . our previous map shows Low Density going up Church Street to about the top of the hill. On the old map, I had Colleen and Carol go through all the old minutes to see if we could find out what actual figure was put in there. There was never a figure put in. We didn't have a good secretary then like we have now to put down what we're talking about. L Raymond: Besides, we've got more experience now and we know the things to watch out for. G. Totman: So if we start off where Map 38 and 39 meet, stop the Medium Density there and start from there and go up past the church up LaFayette Road, and for the minutes sake, how many feet do we want to go? Do we want it up to the top of the hill there? It shows those lots were bought for residential purposes, like Lyle said earlier. But you've been over those roads, Cecil. You go up the road from Haynes' there and you see a house every quarter of a mile . And that's not what I call densely populated . Personally. I think when you get over the top of the hill, where Carr's is, stop the Low Density there and make the rest of it Rural Agricultural. Does that make sense to you? C. TWlgg: Even before Carr's. About the end of the cemetery you could go Agricultural from there on. 13 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 hL Carey: Where's the cemetery? Does that go all the way to the top of the hill? C. TV199, It goes about all the way to the top of the hill. I would say about the cemetery would be the cutoff, George. G. Totman: A thousand feet from where we stopped the Medium Density only takes you up to just inside the cemetery. You 're talking about 2000 feet. You want to leave it that way on that road? As long as everybody's writing this down so we know what we're talking about. From that point on, it's Rural Agricultural. Two-thousand feet up from the corner of where Maps 39 and 38 meet on Church Street, C. Twigg: Is that from the centerline, or the right of way? G. Totman: Do you have to go to . the bathroom? Okay. Then keep quiet. When you're staying in that end of the Town, in that road over towards LaFayette Road, Groton City, do we think -- right now it's all and has been all Rural Agricultural. I don't see any harm -- we've not had any problems with it. The only place where there's any density growth at all is up in the Ogden Hill area. L. Raymond: There's some developments up in there. CO TWIN But it's all along the road. L. Raymond: Well, you can say that about every development. G. Totman: But where it' s developed the most on Ogden Hill Road, it's been an approved development. L. Raymond, It's laid out in lots in there; we've had a case up in there. G. Totman: So that takes care of the whole eastern part of the Town of Groton. .. We'll go back to Peruville . L. Raymond: There's Groton City, G. Totman: Do you want to do Groton City? L. Raymond: We've got Groton City over here rated RA. Just to raise a point. But the number of houses there -- about 15 or 20 -- actually they are just as close together as some of the houses we're requiring Low Density over here out of McLean . G. Totman: The only difference is, Lyle, you're looking at the planning part of it. Look at the past 20 years. Have you seen a new house go into that congregated area? L. Raymond: No, we haven't. It's true. G. Totman: At one particular time there apparently was something in there that caused everybody to kind of get together. But in the last thirty or forty years, there hasn't been a new house over there . Over on Champlin Road you had a couple of them, but over in the Groton City area. . . L. Raymond: There hasn't been much going on there. That's true . G. Totman, Looking at it that way, they say "look, we've been here 40- 50 years and nothing's happened, why do you want to put more restrictions on us?" L. Raymond: Besides, we can protect them if something does go on over there of a big nature with a Site Plan Review anyway. G. Totman: Anything we're allowing out of the norm is Site Plan Review anyway. 14 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 L. Raymond: So we have a way to offer protection. G. Totman: Does everybody want to leave that part of the Town. . . . CO Twigg± I think that we should leave it Rural Agricultural, G. Totman: Okay, let's go to Peruville Corners then. Now we're going all the way from McLean to Groton City and all of that into the Town of Groton . And from McLean to Peruville it's Rural Agricultural. So we've go t to decide what we're going to do around Peruville Corners. Do we want to make that a Medium Density area around that corner to encourage any business around there? Think about it for some time down the road . That could be a fairly good corner there. Somebody might want to put a business or something on that corner. They might be discouraged if they had to come in and ask for a zoning variance. If we make it anything but an M. that's what they'd have to do. L. Raymond: I see the way it's zoned now, they'd run that down to where the railroad tracks were, towards McLean here . That included the old cheese factory building. G. Totman: What they did was really defeat the purpose, I think, of general overall planning. Here's one of the main arteries coming into town and they made it Low Density - - one of the most restrictive parts of our zoning ordinance. It discourages any kind of development at all down through there . My feeling is what's there is fine , but don't encourage more residential development in that area. If you do, you're discouraging the other kind of development. M. Carey, So when we talk about doing Medium, we would go on both sides of the road? Are we talking going 34B or. . . G. Totman, That's what we're talking about. We don't know. I guess what I 'm saying is if you take the center of 38 and 34. . . X Carey: Because 34B on the other side is Dryden and on the other side is R G. Totman: We can only talk about what's in Groton . L. Raymond: Is the County Planning Board going to look at how we zone on the Town Line and how it syncs with the zoning on the other side? Is that one of the review powers they have to check? T. Smith: The Planning Department will look at it. L. Raymond: That's what I thought. So we should be paying attention to what Dryden's got zoned on the other side of 34B then. G. Totman: Not necessarily. Just because they've got it, does that mean we have to have it? L. Raymond: No . But they're going to check to see if both sides are going to sync . And if the Planning Board complains, then we have to go through the same procedure and we have to overrule it somehow? G. Totman: Time out. We didn't want a trailer park in McLean because it would have changed the whole character of the neighborhood. So what did they do? They didn't come and ask the Town of Groton if they could put a trailer park in the Town of Dryden on our Town Line. L. Raymond: But it wasn't zoned the same on both sides, right? G. Totman: When you put something in by license, you can put a trailer park anyplace. L. Raymond: I'm saying this is before the County had the power to review zoning ordinances to see if they sync with neighboring town boundaries. 15 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 G. Totman: What are you trying to say? That anything that's along the Town Line should be zoned the same as they've got? L. Raymond: No -- I'm not saying we have to zone the same as they are . You want to consider it. Because the County Planning Board is sure going to consider it. G. Totman: Wait a minute. Before we take too much time, let's consider it. But then let's go back and do this corner here . This corner here is all in the Town of Groton. All four corners. Ce Twigg: The County owns that corner, right? G. Totman: They own one part of it, yes. CO Twigg: They own part of it. Then the electric company owns across the street, then the church, so really all you're talking about is up the hill . G. Totman. I'm only talking about like we did in McLean -- either 500 or 1000 feet from that corner. Do we want to make that Medium Density? Right now you've got the power company in one place. You're not going to get any Low Density next to the power company. The County budget might go down so they can't afford to run that place over there. They could sell that and somebody else could buy it. Ce Twim It would probably be some kind of industrial or commercial. . . G. Totman: That's what I'm getting at Cecil. We want to make it so. . . . C. lwigg: You never said that. So that was my point, not yours. G. Tot u= So what do you want to do? M. Carey: Smile, George . C. Twigg: He just wants to take credit . . . he just wants to get credit. M. Carey: How far up the road is 1000 feet on 3413? L. Raymond: There is a scale on here, and going up 34B 1000 feet doesn't get up as far as the road that turns down to Peruville . It only goes, . about to where the trailer and the house is up in there. M. Carey: Do we want to go 1000 feet up there, or do we want go to 500 feet? It would be pretty hard to put a business on the middle of that hill. Ca Twigg: But you might, want to go back to McLean. You might want to go clear back to the top of the hill. L. Raymond: A thousand feet towards McLean here doesn't quite get to where the old dairy plant was here and the railroad track. We're also running into -- the whole thing is presently zoned Low Density, including the whole Hamlet of Peruville -- how much has been happening in Peruville by the way? G. Totman: Bear in mind that nothing could happen because we've got it zoned Low Density. L. Raymond: I know, but I just happened to compare the fact that Groton City where you said nothing was happening over there -- well Peruville, where nothing is happening either is zoned Low Density and not Groton City, G. Totman0 But in the future, Lyle, when you compare what's been happening in Peruville , we've had a lot of requests for things to happen in there, but we've said no because it's not allowed. Ce Twigg: How did the church get in there? 16 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 G. Totman: What's wrong with having a church in Low Density? There's no real activity except for on Sunday mornings. L. Raymond: Funeral homes. Well, a church is about the same as a funeral home , I guess. They all have something to do with the hereafter. One's permanent, the other's pending. G. Totman: From the center of the four corners on Peruville Road where the old milk factory used to be is 2000 feet. Anybody want to argue with me? M.Carey: Well the railroad tracks would be perfect for something like that. G. Totman: But the railroad tracks might not be there, see. M. Carey: They're not there now. Co T W199: That's from the centerline, or from the road right-of-way? L. Raymond: That's going to include the creek, the Owasco Inlet, and a house or two on the other side? G. Totman: Two-thousand feet from the center of that intersection takes you right to almost the edge of the property where the old railroad tracks used to be. CO Twig,. So if you go from the right-of-way, you'll go down to the creek. L. Raymond: I was wrong. Sorry, George. I can't read this small print here . M. Carey: Two-thousand feet sounds good to me. Let's go on. C. Twigg: But you've got to figure where the right-of-way is -- we haven't checked with the County to see what the ROW is. We can't go from the centerline because we've already said we had to go from the ROW. L. Raymond: So we leave Peruville in the Low Density the way it is now, but. . . . . G. Totman: You're right. So let's do the other intersection there that goes towards Peruville. L. Raymond: You mean the old road that goes up to Peruville? G. Totman: I would call that 800 feet. X Carey: Does 800 feet take you to the bridge? L. Raymond: It would take you beyond that -- well, maybe not. G. Totman: No, no, no, no, no. I'm going from the four corners up the Peruville Road -- the new road, 800 feet. Are you interested in why I'm thinking 800 feet? It gets to the end of the church property that is there now. Bear in mind, the rest of that is residential through there and there's a good possibility when you're looking ahead that property could be sold for anything. There's a building there that could be a light industry, or whatever. So I would want to include all that property in that. From that point on you could have Rural Agricultural . L. Raymond: So if the church gets hard up , they could sell part of their parking lot for a widget factory they can . G. Totman: We want to make it available to them to do it if they want to do it . Now, going back towards Groton, you can't go by what's there now because there isn't any industrial or commercial activities -- but there could be . 17 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 Ce TWI g: The soil is of a type that's all gravel. G. Totman: What would you think of going just exactly what we did there and go back 2000 feet there with a Medium. So what we're saying is it would be 2000 feet towards Groton, 2000 feet towards McLean, and 800 feet up the hill. I want to make sure these girls are getting that. We're on the corner of 34B and 38, going from that corner towards McLean 2000 feet -- going east. Going west, we're going 800 feet up Peruville Hill; going north , we're going 2000 feet - Medium Density, M. Carey: Does that take us to those three houses that are real close together? Or does it take us to where that. . . L. Raymond: Does it cross the creek going north? The creek comes down out of Peruville and crosses 38 right there going north . It goes under the road and is down a ways from the corner. G. Totman: Two-thousand feet takes you 800 feet beyond the creek. It doesn't mean you have to change things, but if these people want to sell it for a gas station, or whatever, they can do that. And in Peruville itself, down into Peruville , right now it's all residential. I would consider -- it's off in the corner so much and not out in the open like McLean or this corner down here -- I would take the perimeter of the Peruville area and make it Low Density. L. Raymond: One further question I got -- maybe I missed it here. There's another road here; what about the old road that goes to Peruville and follows the creek up from the corners. Did you cover that? G. Totman: Yes we did . I'll tell you how we covered it -- when we went down from that corner towards Groton with that Medium thing for 200 -- that's 500 feet back from the road. So that takes care of that. In the Peruville area itself, if we . . . L. Raymond: Just leave the dang thing Low Density just the way it is because it's going to change and be loosened up anyway. That will take care of some of the problems you had before. G. Totman: When you say low density, what parameters do you want to put in there? How far up? L. Raymond: You mean geographically how far do we go? G. Totman: How many feet. Feet. We could take on that particular road, on the Old Peruville Road where it comes off of the Groton Road. . . . Medium Density is going to go back 500 feet and from there go Low right down into Peruville -- following the way it is right now, but that really doesn't help these girls. So figure our 500 feet back right down that road - Low Density. Medium stops at 500 feet off of 38 and Low into Peruville. That road is called the Old Peruville Road, so make it Low Density all the way up until it meets Pleasant Valley Road, Okay? L. Raymond: They've got it shown here on the old map there is Low Density going up north on Pleasant Valley Road just past the curve where it curves west. And on this map here it doesn't even show that as being a residential lot in there on that curve. Co TWIW The Low Density is really . . . . probably what you're interested in the Low Density is just right in the immediate vicinity of Peruville. Right? M. Carey: Well you almost have to go out both directions. . . . G. Totman: Have you got your map in front of you? I see nothing wrong with leaving it the way that map is if we can just put the footage on it. L. Raymond: We don't know what the footage is, right? It was never set. G. Totman: What I 'm saying is you're living up there the way it is and you 're going to come to the public hearing and ask why are you changing it. What reason are you going to give them for changing M. Carey: That's true . 18 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 G. Totman: You see, right here. . . . L. Raymond: But do you know how far that really is? You said the other one we don't know the exact distances to set that. Is that true in Peruville, too? G. Totman: We'll make them right now. No, we don't know. It's 500 feet. But when you're going up the hill, where does it stop? That's the point I was trying to make. Let's have it stop where Torok Road meets Pleasant Valley Road. L. Raymond: You want to go all the way up to the top? G. Totman: Is that too far up? L. Raymond: I don't know that road -- how many houses are in there? G. Totman: There's a lot of them up through there. So you take it up Pleasant Valley Road up to where Torok intersects. So it will be Low Density all the way -- and we're already talking 500 feet back -- so then we come back down that road and go past where the Old Peruville Road comes on -- keep it Low Density right in there, and then you've got. . . L. Raymond: Well we go up the hill and join 34B on that short road going down into Peruville . G. Totman: That doesn't go all the way up to 34B. L. Raymond: It does too. You can go right up and turn off 34B -- I turn off there sometimes. G. Totman: That's Sobers Road. L. Raymond: We want that Low Density right up to 34B, right? G. Totman: Uh-huh . L. Raymond: If we do that, and the 500 feet goes back east on 34B, that's damn near going to meet the one coming up Medium Density the other way, isn't it? C. Twigg: Not quite . G. Totman: No, but there's really nothing wrong with making that block in there, the whole thing -- but bear in mind we spell it out so Jeannie and Joanie -- or Tracey and Joanie can . . . . Ce TWI g: The question is -- you say you go up the Pleasant Valley Road . I don't see anything particularly wrong with that. We've got to figure out how far to come up the Peruville Road. L. Raymond: That's right. We're going to include the Sobers Road up to there? So we go up Peruville Road to the bed and breakfast anyway up there. . . M. Carey: I don't know if you'd even want to go up to the bed and breakfast. I would say where there's a sign entering Peruville. C* TWI g: Probably a thousand feet out of Peruville, wouldn't it be, George? Because there's a barn. . . . G. Totman: Right now, I'm at the four corners in Peruville. C. Twigg: Are you going to measure from the centerline , or. . . . NL Carey: George just dropped his measuring stick. L. Raymond: Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 19 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 M. Carey: Are you back to working now, George? M. Carey: Aren't you so lucky to have people like us? L. Raymond: That's right. Just think what a sober meeting this would be if you didn't have people like us here. It would just like going into a tomb in here. M. Carey: Just like the County Board. G. Totman: (In answer to secretary's request for correct name of road) -- it's Sobol. S-O-B-O-L. That's what I said earlier. C. Twigg It's Sobers, G. Totman: You're right. S-O-B-E-R-S. CO TWI g: He's got this so screwed up. L. Raymond: We all knew everybody on that road was sober. Ce TVI g: Nobody would know where they were . L. Raymond: There must have been a still there in Peruville and that was the only road they were sober on. C. Twigg: No -- there were some people lived there named Sobers. G. Totman: How far you want to go up that road? 1000 feet? M. Carey: How far does a thousand feet get you -- out to where Smith used to live that died? G. Totman: Beyond that. M. Carey: Out to Margaret Tyler's? G. Totman: Just about there. M. Carey: I wouldn't go out to Margaret Tyler's so make it 800 feet. Co Twigg: Come short of Tyler's. G. Totman: Why? M. Carey: Tyler's is a lot of rural. There's a lot of agricultural land there . G. Totman: Well, take a look at it. Ce TWI , Well you're measuring it. G. Totman: Yes, but I don't know which one is Tyler's on here. M. Carey: Tyler's is just before the bed and breakfast. G. Totman: Oh it doesn't go anywheres near that then. C. Twigg: A thousand feet. Let's say a thousand feet. I like it. G. Totman: A thousand feet takes you right out just beyond where the last of the concentrated. . . . CO Twigg: That's where we want to go. 20 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 G. Totman: That takes care of the Peruville corners then. C. T wigg: What's next? West Groton is the only other one left. L. Raymond: WeVe got West Groton and these peripheral areas around the village. G. Totman: Back up a minute. When we were around the Peruville area there, that thousand feet we talk about where we go west from that four corners out beyond where Smith lived -- to make it easier to understand, we're going Low Density from the church up the hill to that to keep this block in there . And you're also bringing the Pleasant Valley Road as it comes through the four corners up to Route 34 -- we've already talked about that -- so you keep that whole block in there Low Density until wherever you stop going west on the Old Peruville Road going out west. Let me show you what I 'm talking about. We talked about -going a thousand feet out to here . And, just like it is now, wherever the thousand feet stops, include that whole area into Low right in there . Right up to 34B. L. Raymond: Because I was about to say that 500 feet on this side goes up to 34B anyway. G. Totman: It will look about like it does now, only it will have some footage on it. L. Raymond: That's right. C. Twigg: I didn't realize that Low Density went all the way up to 34B . G. Totman: Now from the corner -- back to the corner there -- we're going towards Groton now, we've already agreed to go 2000 feet, Medium Density, from the corner towards Groton. Okay? My suggestion is to change it from Low Density up through there to Rural Agricultural until we get within 1000 or 1500 feet, whichever, of the village line and then in that area there make it Medium. Mr. Twigg, do you agree with me. C. Twigg: That sounds all right. G. Totman: You must be getting tired . We're going to stop Medium Density 2000 feet from that four corners; from that point, it's going to be Rural Agricultural all the way up until we get to within 1000 feet, or whatever you want, from . . . . . M. Carey: Will a thousand feet come back to cover the antique store to the village line? G. Totman: That's in the village . You mean that chicken house? M. Carey: Yes. Where does the village line start? C. Twigg: Just past the school house a little bit. M. Carey: Is that day care in the village? C. TWigg: No . G. Totman: Yes. Let me refresh your memory a minute because that's why I wanted to change the signs so you didn't require a distance from the road because that was in the village and they and they had a ZBA meeting in the village on that sign . Unless somebody knows this map by the shapes of the lands, I don't know which would be which . L. Raymond: That's the meat market, so we know where that is. When I took cartography in college and learned how to make maps, one of the things I was told was the law -- that you put a north arrow on it and you put a scale on it, and you put a date on it. C. Twiggy Guess they didn't go to the same school you did. T. Smith: I didn't make that map. 21 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 G. Totman: If you look at the tax map, I would suggest 1500 feet from the village line. L. Raymond: And that's going to include the meat market, right? Have to -- 1500 feet. 11 G. Totman: I don't have the thing to tell me where the meat market is. They have those in the Town Clerk's office . I don't know why George doesn't have those out here . . . . I can't operate without having those . L. Raymond: It must almost get to the antique place . The antique place is right on the curve, and the scale I 've got here shows it coming right up to the curve if this map is anywhere near right. M. Carey: What are you, whispering about, Georgie? G. Totman: Trying to make out with the secretary. ,I C. Zwigg: Lots of luck. M. Carey: She's got that gadget that starts her car, so she'll be out there before you even get moving, George . G. Totman: Come here a minute, Lyle. You 've got good perception. Well, you're the closest, put it that way. This is the village' back here . From the village line out to where your first dividing line is, dividing the property, it comes to just about 1500 feet and includes those little properties -- now I think that's the meat market right 'there . L. Raymond: I think you're right. Here's this pond and the antique place is just this side of the pond a little bit. But whether it's that lot, I'm not sure. I think it's maybe more in here -- it's closer to the pond isn't it? It's quite close to it. The antique place is right in here, I think, because there's the curve . G. Totman: Well if you're going to go out to the antique place , that's 2400 feet right there -- this would be to the end of the piece of property where the pond is. So 2000 feet would take you to the dead center of that pond. L. Raymond: I think I would go with the 20W feet myself. M. Carey: As long as we've already, got a business out there. G. Totman: Now let me back up a minute so we all understand it . We're going to start from the village line from where the school is, going towards Peruville , 2000 feet, we'll call Medium Density. From that point on, it's Rural Agricultural. But when we get out to the four corners, we're going to go 2000 feet towards McLean, Medium Density, and then towards Groton we're going 2000 feet, and then towards Peruville we're going 500 feet. I think that's what we put down. T. Smith: You put 800. L. Raymond: Eight-hundred feet on 34B and 500 on the Old Peruville Road, G. Totman: That's right. And the rest of that Old Peruville area is Low, but for record purposes, we've got to put down what roads we're talking about. So we're taking that Pleasant Valley Road all the way from the Old Peruville, Road where it hooks into Pleasant Valley Road, all the way up to the top of the hill to where Pleasant Valley Road -- both sides of the road -- 500 feet on either side. Then we come back down into Peruville and turn right to go out towards Route 34, it'll go out that way 1000 feet. When we stop at that, it goes all the way out to Route 34B. We're not using a footage in there because we're not sure, but it will go up to 34B and down to the corner where it meets the Medium by the church property. Co Twigg: And all of, Sobers Road. 22 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 G. Totman: Yes. That will be Low. Everything around it going that way, now we're going towards Lansing, west on 34B -- when we go all the way out there and over into Groton City, until we get to West Groton, I don't see anything but what leaving all that Rural Agricultural. Very personally, I think we would disrupt the people -- when I'm getting into West Groton I 'm ignoring -- you're standing on the corner looking Due East, I 'm ignoring the property right there to your left-hand side, back a thousand feet. L. Raymond: Why are we leaving West Groton in Low Density and not Groton City? G. Totman: Lyle , you're doing what I quite often accuse other people of doing -- they want me to listen to them when I 'm talking, but when I'm talking they are reading something else trying to come back with something else and they're not listening to what I 'm saying. That's exactly what I was saying. I see no reason for calling that Low Density in that area, because there's nothing happening there and those people are very happy the way it is there. C. Twig,: You mean theVWest Groton area? G. Totman: Yes, except for that one piece of property I mentioned, I think we ought to. . . L. Raymond: Call it all Rural Agricultural like the rest of it. The Town can always amend the ordinance if some big thing goes on sometime in the future. G. Totman: Now we're back down to the village on Spring Street -- actually it comes in on West Groton Road . Do we want !' to make it, on those roads leading out of the village, there is some development in those areas I don't see where we want to encourage any commercial or that type of activity in there , but I do think that along that area -- let me put this out and suggest it -- Lyle, go back over on -- I just want to get this thing done. Back where we come into Groton on 38, Medium Density, pick up there looking west -- standing on Route 38 looking back towards West Groton -- I think it's west around the perimeter of the village line, go back 1000, 1500 feet, 2000, or somewhere in there, and make that whole area Low Density until we get all the way back around to 38 going north out of the village . L. Raymond: It makes it a lot simpler. G, Totman: To encourage that type of growth right next to the village because . that's the type of zoning they have around the village . Does that make sense? But for the purposes of recording it, we're talking about that whole area -- 1000 feet from the village line --- call it 2000 if you want -- whatever you think might be good . . . . T. Smith: Along the western boundary? 11 G. Totman: Yes. The western boundary of the village -- I 'd say at least 1500 feet. One-thousand feet isn't very far; I'd even go with 2000 feet. hL Carey: Can we go going out on 38, too? G. Totman: No -- 38 is Medium up to a certain point. M. Carey: I'm trying ;to get distances in my mind. How many feet did we go out on there? G. Totman: Two thousand . Just go right around the village with it. In fact, I 'd do it all the way around the village . Well, not quite. We've got some Mediums in there . But come all the way around to Route 38 going out of the village towards Locke . L. Raymond: Route 38 around the west side of the village and back to 38? G. Totman: Right. Is that all agreeable to everybody? Then11 . . . . T. Smith: How wide? 23 s Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 G. Tatman: 2000. L. Raymond: That will pick up Walpole Road and some of those other places, too. M. Carey: Walpole Road is getting a lot of development on it. G. Totman: So that takes us over to that area there. But when we get back to Route 38 going out of the village towards Locke, that's pretty much residential so we could go across that road and keep going around the village perimeter up to where we meet our Industrial zone up there . Still keeping a 2000- foot perimeter going up to where we meet that Industrial zone. L. Raymond: That would include that whole section in there where there's the pizza, the bar, and the church -- Roman Village. There's potential for more in there in that section. M. Carey: Now would that cover the cemeteries? G. Totman: There's not much you can do with cemeteries. The current Industrial zone doesn't come all the way up to the village line, and I misspoke when I said that. But for the time being, let's bring that Low Density up -- all the way around the village -- and it'll meet all the roads around the village except for where we put the Medium on where 34 comes in. We can go back to that later. Let's go out and finish the Locke Road. Now we've stopped the Low Density 2000 feet out and it's going to be Rural Agricultural out there . There is a zone out there right now that was created after the original zoning map was done, and ,it's called Industrial. That's almost on the Town line where Lewbro's is. Incidentally, that was fought very, very bitterly when it was done. But by some people in the area. I think there's a good case right there . Do you want to change something just because somebody is complaining? The strongest people against it did not live right next to that land . When the ZBA met on it and listened to all these people, it was new to them back then, and they went off in the side room and they had an executive session to discuss it. The ZBA came back in and said they needed more time, so they went back in the room and when they came back out they passed it. But at first they were listening to the hollering and screaming of the people . They really had no basis for it. It's a good thing to look back on. But right now they got the Industrial zone out there and that is . . . L. Raymond: Well, you know what my long-term position has been. I favor getting rid of it, but it's obvious I'm just a lone voice in the wilderness. G. Totman: You can't get rid of it, it's already there. L. Raymond: I know, but we're changing the ordinance. We're revising the ordinance and you just got rid of the Low Density over here in West Groton -- so we can get rid of that Industrial as well . If there's any appropriate place for Industrial it's out on Route 38. Ce TWI g: Or 222, M. Carey: What about just leaving that cement plant area. . . . L. Raymond: I'm talking about the Industrial zone on 222 -- I'm sorry. No, Lewbro I don't have any problem with . The one on 222 -- I thought you were going on around the village. C. Twigg: That Industrial zone up 222 you don't agree with? L. Raymond: No . I think it's adequately covered under other provisions we have anyway --our Site Plan Review or whatever. Take it as it comes. The way the thing is laid out now is crazy anyway because they've got one side of the road. . . . G. Totman: Well, we're going to change that and make it both sides of the road . C. Twigg. We are? We're going to get to vote on it, right? G. Totman: That's right. But I 'm going to wait until there's more people than there is tonight to vote on it. Let's get this distance . 24 ' Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 11 G. Totman: Its got a little more than Lewbro's in there . I would suggest to try to leave it as much the way as it is there now. There's nothing wrong with taking it from Munson's on that side of the road and just make that basically the same way as it is now. From the auction barn, including the auction barn, east to the Town line. Ce Tw1 g: On the east of the road going north from Munson' s. But there 's no specific measurement now. G. Totman: If we pick up wherever Munson's is now -- I 'll have to get the measurements later. I don't want to say from Munson's because ten years from now they'll be reading the minutes and they'll ask who is this Munson you're talking about. We want to talk about how many feet. For the sake of the minutes right now, let's put down. . . That restaurant over there is over the line. Where is the Catholic Church? Okay -- we're talking about 4000 feet. M. Carey: That's not what it is now, I don't think. G. Totman: I'm including Munson's barn, going from Munson's back. Your actually talking about 10, 000 feet if you 're going to include Munson's. From Munson's -- picture going down there on the right-hand side of the road. There's the Munson Auction Gallery; you go down the road two or three houses in there, and in about another 1000 feet you've got the big Lewbro thing sitting up on the hill . They cover quite a lot of land. They've got 50 acres of land. hL Carey: There's a house out back behind Lewbro's. G. Totman: That's where Glen Munson lived . Then the way the map looks, you 're talking about 1000 feet beyond Lewbro's to the land . For the purpose of making it look like you're really planning something, it's kind of ridiculous to have someone look at this five years down the road and say why did they just pick out this little spot here? Why didn't they take it all the way to the County Line? M. Carey: From the County Line it's nothing but swamp anyway. G. Totman: So we're talking 10, 000 feet only on one side of the road, back 1000 feet. In that particular area it's different ..because you 've got to make what's there a part of it. M. Carey: It's 10 o'clock; I call for adjournment. G. Totman: The only thing we have left is the Groton Road. But it is 10 o'clock. Our next meeting is a regular meeting, the third Thursday. We don't meet on the second Thursday unless you people want to. To finish this up. Get serious a minute. We're into October now. If we don't get this done pretty soon, you're going to get into Thanksgiving and Christmas. Our contract with Tracey runs out the first of the year. T. Smith: I will finish the project. It doesn't matter. G. Totman: I'd like to get it done so I don't have to come here every week. At our regular meeting then, if there's nothing more on the agenda than just one or two little things, or if we can meet at 7: 30 that night instead of 8. . . . C. Twigg: I 'm going to Florida for two weeks, so I won't be here next Thursday -- the next two Thursdays I won't be here :' But the 27th , I 'll be back and so will Lyle. I don't think we should hold too many of these meetings without Lyle. 11 L. Raymond: Thanks, Cecil. We'll make a team. 11 G. Totman: If you don't want to meet the second Thursday to get this thing done, on the night of the meeting you don't want to do anything either. I think we ought to be doing something, because we've got a lot of stuff the ZBA has given us to look at and we haven't even looked at any of that yet. L. Raymond: On the 20th, I have to be in Buffalo all that day so that's out. I can do the 13th. 26 Groton Town Planning Board Meeting 6 October 1994 R u M. Carey:, We can do the zoning stuff on the second Thursday and then the fourth Thursday we can do the map . G. Totman: Okay. I suggest we get the map done and then do some of the things George Senter's given us some memos on. If we wait until we have a quorum, we'll never get the thing done. C. Twigg: I would like the minutes to read that even if you put the Industrial zone up 222 , I was opposed to it. G. Totman: They will, That's why she's taking the minutes. It's going on right now. L. Raymond: And I 'm already on record as being against it. G. Totman: We could call some of the other members and work on some of these other things we have to do on the 13th , There are some things I've asked Tracey to do, so the minutes will show and you 'll know what I 'm talking about -- is we talk in this draft we're going to have about Site Plan Review. For example , there are some good guidelines written up by the State as to what a Site Plan Review is. The only thing you have to do is go through them and change some wording here and there and put it into ours so we won't have any problem with any rules or regulations because we're following the State guidelines, So I've asked Tracey to go through those and take it from one of these books and put it in there so we know we're following the guidelines of the State , If we put it in there that it's the guidelines of the State, then we're totally legal. That way, if anyone wants to challenge us on it, if we don't change it and make it stricter than, then we know we're okay. If that's okay with you people, we'll have Tracey do this -- and I'll work with her on it. So unless you hear from us, we'll meet next Thursday night, the 13th. And we'll get everything we can done before Cecil gets back. The meeting was adjourned at 10:02 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Joan E. Fitch Recording Secretary For information purposes: This transcript contains 79, 357 characters, I 27 �i