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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1993-08-27 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD PUBLIC HEARING , # 2 THURSDAY , AUGUST 27 , 1992 GEORGE TOTMAN , CHAIRMAN OF THE PLANNING BOARD , opened the hearing at 7 : 15 P . M . in the Town Hall Courtroom . Board Public Present * George Totman On attached sheet * George VanSlyke * Monica Carey Verl Rankin Cecil Twigg Sheldon Clark ( * present ) TOTMAPd : This is our second meeting of the Planning Board where we are trying to educate the Town or the Town educate us as to what you would like or don ' t like about the planning , zoning , or comprehensive plan for the Town of Groton . We started with a survey Last spring . From that , most of you have seen the results or are looking at them tonight . We had a meeting Monday night and the topic was the Economic aspect of the Town of Groton . Tonight we want to fo'cus on the Agricultural aspects , issues or problems . After the speaker is finished , we will be open for questions as they relate to Agriculture . Then we will have a few minutes of what other issues are on everybody ' s mind . Once we get into that , I will turn it over for the County Planning Department ' s two young ladies : Jeannie Barrett and Joan Jurkowich . They will. fill in your questions . With that , I will introduce Carl Krisbout , he will discuss a ' '"ittle about the Agricultural aspects . 8 / 27 / 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 2 C . CRISPELL : I just might start with telling you a little bit about who I am . I am the Farm Business Management Specialist for five Counties . I have been in this position a little over six years . I haven ' t been a whole lot involved with the planning process in this position but will try to answer some of your questions . I did - serve a couple of terms as ;Down Supervisor in the Town of Tr uxton ten years ago . I sort of got the Town Planning Board revitalized while I was there . A very important part of the agriculture business has to do with the economy , Which is what you talked aboba , :°Monday night . You are 0 blessed with some good soil. here and others not so good . Agriculture does generate alot of income much of which is spent and re - spR� nt -within this community and adjoinin communities . I think one thing that is very important to recognize is the differences in quality of land in different areas . Most of the full - time farming operation are on the best soils because in order to be profitable the soil. is one of thex"g-sources needed . Drainage is definitely the most important characteristic of farming . The people that own the land tend to be those that make the decisions about how it gets used . I think for farmer especially those that the farm has been in the family for generations , therre ja a real reluctance to part with the land . Most farmers like the farm or like to farm , and as long as they are making money doing it , they are going to continue doing it . If they can ' t make a living then usually one spouse takes a job outside the home . Using 8 / 27 / 92 Mtg . # 2 • Page 3 CRISPELLc ffyaa� es- from; ^ the New York State Dairy Farm Business Summary ; on average in , New York State , Dairy farmers rent 37% of the property they use . Four farms from the Town. of Groton participated in the 1990 - 1991 statistics in the Dairy Farm Business Summary . These farms had some growth . The average number of cows on these farms in 1990 was 91 cows , in 1991 , it went up to 98 cows . Heifer numbers also went up , tons of milk sold went up , the worker equivolent went up very slightly . The total number of acres used stayed the same . It got alot better in terms of milk sold per cow : from 17 . 6 % to 19 . 5% . It was a dry year , so hay fields were down a bit . Farm silage = fields essentially stayed the same . We have seen increases in rates of production in per acre and per cow , quite a bit more efficient in terms of cows per worker and milk sold per worker . The price of milk was lower in 1991 than in 1990 . Actually , they did a better job of controlling their dairy feed and profit expense perk ; weight of milk sold . They lowered it from 435 to 410 , but the percentage of milk sale went and paid for purchasing feed , which went up because of the lower milk price , not because of poor cost control . Labor and machinery costs per cow also rose slightly on average , mostly because of increase in machinery parts . Another figure that changed al. ot is farm capita per cows machiner ,, and equipment investment per cow didn ' t change very much either . It is a very capital intensive business . Pro - fitability was down in 1991 because of more " uprisings 8 / 27 / 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 4 CRISPELLQ � Gven though the people did a whole lot better job in turning cost control . There are farms in the ;State where farms milking parlors are operating 24 hours a day . So , farm size increases have alot to do with cost . The noise level might be a bother to those non - farmers who live close . One other reason farms have been able to hold down cost of purchased feed is because they keep doing a better job of producing high quality forages . )Probably the thing that gets the most at -ention in a negative way is manure , especially manure that is stored . When it gets agitated while getting ready for spreading , it , can be pretty offensive . There is also a positive , that is new mowed hay . It has a pleasant smell . At certain t10es of the year , silage operations can cause dust . One thing to note is , that plants , especially fields of corn , uses alot of carbon dioxide in photo - synthesis . That is important in`. hm ! Oin. g to improve air quality . Maybe educating the non - farmers would help them to understand the farming business better . One farmer we know sends letters to his neighbors stating the dates he intends to spread manure . Out in California they have an Agricultural. Reserve which is strictly for Dairy Farmers and is tightly controlled . They have some protection in terms of taxation on the farms . TOTMAPds Are you familiar with the legislation that was signed this week ? CRISPELLo No . I am not familiar enough , but I ' ll try to explain a little . There is a three hour session scheduled for 8 / 27 / 92 Mtg . e2 Page 5 CRISPELLs extension agents on September 30 , 1992 . One of the things that is going to happen is that � . > in .each County , there is going to be . . . . let me see if I can find the letter . The 'letter says , " The Legislation amends Agricultural Market Law , Real Property Law , and Real Property Tax Law in an effort to strengthen protection for the State ' s Agricultural Farming and Resource . Procedures for creatilig and reviewing Agricultural Districts are modified and the Agricultural Districts Advisory Committees are rename and re - constituted . Accelerated Agriculture protection planning will be promoted at the County level . At the State level , the Commissioner of Agricultural Markets is being given new authority to issue opinions on some Agricultural practices and more extensive ° notice of intent requirement on proposed non - farming development actions in Agricultural districts . '! A pa-rt' of this is to inform people that are about to purchase property in an Agricultural District about the kinds of activities that might take place there . TOTMANo What I was getting at is , one of the intents was that if you are buying into farm land , you are buying out farms . It was the intent that you inform those people that this is farm land , these things are going to happen or are happening . If they are properly informed that before the pending of a sale , then it takes away their rights to complain about it afterwards . RAYMOND : Is the Agricultural Commission:'))s rule also to act like ethics of a committee ? Also , the Board ' s at the County 8 / 27 ,/ 92 Mtg . 42 Page 6 RAYMOND : level on this , in other words , if there was a complaint then , therefore the Committee could be asked , as well as the Agricultural Committee , to make a statement saying , " Was this practice this farm was engaged in , essential to that farming operation ? " If it is , then these people wouldn ' t have much to go on . TOTMAN : We would like to keep the questions directed more towards Carl . JURKOWICH0 Did anybody have any specific questions they would like to ask Mr . Crispell. ? S . HOWARD .* Do you have any facts on how many acres which are in Tompkins County or Groton that are Agricultural today ? CRISPELL : The census data is not available according to Town by Town . I think the census is done every five years and it will be done i-n , late • 1992 and collected early in. 1993 . I.n all. of Tompkins County , there was 121 , 068 acres in farms ; in 1987 , there was 110 , 609 acres . It was a little less than a 10% decrease in land in. farms . , Your question was how much land went into housing or monies being used for farms , I know there is alot of land not being used . S . HOWARD : It is just gone to weed . I agree that alot of it goes to housing , industry , and such . There is alot of land sitting idle today . I am just curious as to how far in the future are the farms going to exist at all ? CRISPELL : I would say a long , long time . The most common thing that happens is that if a farmer owns alot of land , and 8 / 27 / 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 7 CRISPELL : if a1 -, strip of it is a ways off , it probably doesn ' t get used . It probably goes to weed . BARRETT * There was an article in the New York Times ; it said there was growth or re - growth in mini farms . Could you give us your opinion on how you feel the future will. be in regards to that ? CRISPELL : In terms of farm numbers , the growth is in small. farms . They are mostly part - time farms . The horse number is growing also . TWIGG : Those types of farms have a far lesser impact on the taxes and the economy , and the community . It takes a whole lot of little farms to where it is a big operation . CRISPELL : I tend to agree with you . On the other hand , if you look at a dairy farm and you look at gross income per acre , I would guess it would average $ 1 , 000 . 00 per acre . If you sell $ 2 , 000 . 00 worth of milk from cows , you have three acres per cow , that is $ 700 . 00 gross income per acre that that dairy farm produces . If you start growing fruits and vegetables on that farm , you are talking maybe $ 7 , 000 * 00 selling those crops . RAYMOND : Is there anything that other Towns are doing different than what we are doing here in Groton ? In terms of your specialty , Agriculture , what have you seen with the farmers you work with ? What have other Towns done , if anything , which effects them either favorably or unfavor - ably ? 8 / 27 / 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 8 CRISPELL : Certainly , the highway system is very important to Agriculture . There is lots of talk about farms going out of the dairy business because the milk truck will no longer come to get their milk . If the Town or the County will not maintain bridges or roads , that will carry very heavy trucks , it will happen in more cases . Highway Departments prefer that heavy trucks not be on the road . S . HOWARD * Does the ' �Town Board try to go towards an Industrial Park or bring Industry into Groton ? TOTMAPd0 At this particular time , we had thoughts on that . What we are trying to do is get all the thoughts from the people through the course of these meetings first . If people think or suggest that we should do that , then yes . we would be glad to do it . We have nothing formal going on as to looking at certain areas of the Town to put the Industries . The community is longing for some growth type development . Hopefully from the end of all these meetings , some idea might come forth so that the Planning Board could suggest to the Town Board and work in cooperation as to all the ideas brought forth . SCFIEFFLER : What was the intention for having these meetings in the first place ? What ' ili; s the Planning Board trying to achieve and why ? Are there things wrong with the plan now ; with the way they are ? Why do you feel we need to re - write the Rules and Regulations ? TOTMAN * When the original plan was made , it was a guideline 9 / 27 ,/ 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 9 TOTMAPd : suggested by the People . Every five to ten years it should be updated because the community changes , the number of people change , and different needs are required . Our plan has not been changed since 1972 . Through the course of activities from the Planning Board , Zoning Board of Appeals , and Zoning Officer , we can ' t live with the Ordinance with the way it is today . Rather than trying to pick it to pieces , we decided to look at the whole Ordinance in general , see what the community thinks with the way it is , and come up with a new comprehensive plan . From that , we can go back and see how it fits with the Ordinance that we ' ve got . F . BENSOPd One thing I would do is a study on the amount of income coming in from the outside . It is not just money going hand to hand inside the Town . JURKOWI Cf1 : Do you have any idea on how we would be able to do that ? F . BENSON e Government agencies should get you on the right track . L . RAYMO DID : It seems to me that one of the things that is important is that these lands from the farms form a very important aesthetic part of the Town . Alot depends on how we view whAt kind of development maybe would be allowed on these lands and what are the options available to theffarmer who has this land ? TWIGG : In some European countries , they designate areas for residential . If they need more space to build houses on , somebody picks out an area and it is sort of like a little community . The reason was to preserve what 9 / 27 ,/ 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 10 TWIGG : farmland they had . CRISPELL : Certainly , the land that is the easiest to develop is strips along the highways . Sometimes when farmers get short of cash , they sell some building lots . It is better to have or buy land to build on in blocks than in strips . TWIGG : The opinion of the people who answered the survey , all wanted large building lots . Here in this Town , we have a minimum of 200 ft . of road frontage , so actually , the only place you can build a house is along the edge of the road . We use up alot of road frontage and al. ot of good farm land because each building lot has to be on the road . I think that this survey was telling us that they don ' t want slot of houses along the road ; but , ." there is not any way to build them off the road with our present Zoning Ordinance . RAYMOPdD : I agree . If you fly over the Town , you ' d say the land really isn ' t good for anything except for farming land. because it .is all open . If you drive through Town , it is a different story . It seems like wall to wall houses . TWIGG : We have got to develop some kind of a system to give access to this vacant useless land for farming purposes . S . HOWARD * Maybe you should change it from idle frontage to square footage . If you took and had to have 200 ft . of road frontage and had to go back at least 200 ft . off the road , that is an acre . Then you have to have a minimum for right - of -way . Are you going to buy a piece of proper - ty if you have to have a right - of - way across my property ? 6/ 27 / 92 ! Mtg . # 2 Page 11 TOTMAPI : What some Towns do is to have flag lots . There might be a piece of property where there is 50 ft * of road frontage between two pieces of property with maybe an acre or two behind that . That is called a flag lot . The State rules say that you have to have access to a public highway in order to get a building permit . TWIGG : The Health Department has certain requirements for septic systems and water systems . The lot has got to be at least 150 ft . You have got to put a 150 ft . circle some place on that lot . I guess if the drainage is not good , then it has to be more than that . We don ' t have to use up all our road frontage to do that . You are going to have to build more road or this land is not going to be used or usable . S . HOWARD * The other thing that you should be careful of is the County roads . They are not in such good shape . SCHEFFLER : The people who move out onto those roads are from the Village or a Village . They are not used to dirt roads or trucks all the time . They want them paved . TWIGG : What I am thinking of more is the base or the bridges . If you got to get commercial rigs in there , like a dump truck every day , they ,have got to drive alot of miles , extra miles to pick milk up at somebody ' s place because the bridges aren ' t sufficient enough to handle over five or ten ton . Maybe they can put something like that in the deed . RAYMOPdD : I think it all boils down to the type of people you are attracting to the Town . 8 ,/ 27 / 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 12 DIANE LEDRMA . This is exactly what happened to us . We built our house on a dirt road . I didn ' t want it paved . Other people moved in and they wanted it paved . These people were not used to dust , tractors , etc . Next thing you know , the road is being paved . I liked it just the way it was . I also think that you need to know that development is not always a good thing . The farm land that is in our area doesn ' t really cost the taxpayers of Groton that much money . When you start getting houses built , these people start demanding services ; which in turn is going to cost . Sometimes land left vacant is economically more sound than to put' . houses on them . TWIGG : Most houses do not generate enough taxes for the services they need . So , we need the businesses . The farmers are paying alot more taxes than they require services . Farmers are the best tax base that we have . TOTMAPd : We had some people here Monday night saying that they like it the way it is . Something you need to keep in mind is , if you like something the way it is , if you don ' t plan around it , it will change in spite of you . If you don ' t put some planning or controls in there , it might not stay the way it is . It might lead off in a different direction because you didn ' t plan ahead of time to try to control what you have or encourage something else for a tax base . SCHEFFLER : For economic development , are we talking about the Village as well as the Town ? 8 ,/ 2 7 ,/ 9 2 Mtg . # 2 Page 13 TOTMAN0 Yes . SCHEFFLER : It seems to me , if you want business and industry , the place to do it would be in a simple area like the Village where the rest of the Town would gravitate toward it . It seems to be a better idea than to pop it up somewheres outside of Town because we need to include the Village as part of the plan . Is the Village doing one plan and the Town doing another ? JURKOWICHO No . The Village has been doing their plan for some time . TOTMAPI : I think they are done . Originally before the Town of Groton had any Rules and Regulations , the Town and the Village had a joint committee . What the Town Regulations were centered around was encouraging Industry or Commercial Development around the core of the Village where you could get public water , sewer , and electric . Most of the areas that we designated to be the high growth areas were adjacent to the areas in the Village . BARRET 'P : I would just like to add something to what Joan and George said . The residents of the Village have been getting a newsletter and many of them have been filled out . As Joan said , we will get alot of useful and inter - esting input on the master plan for the Town . F . BENSON We recently had land near us become available but they were offered more money for subdividing it . To me , it is a sad thing to see farm land that was in the family 8 ,/ 27 / 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 14 BEPJSOPJ0 for generations turn their land into building lots . JURKOWICH : Do you think there is something that the Town could have done differently ? BEPJSOPJ : I think it is too far out of their hands . Alot of the other States around New York have Agricultural rights or farm land retention . codes ; which the State pays the farmers if they want to sell it for housing , the difference between what they would get for a building lot and what they would get if it were farm ;; land . The State would make up the difference so that they could go on farming . New York doesn ' t have • l. that . JURKOWICH : What if the houses are clustered on part of that farm , could some use come of the rest of that land ? BEPJSOPJ : It is up to them . JURKOWICH : Any other ideas on what should or shouldn ' t be done ? BENSOPJ : They shouldn ' t regulate . 'POTMAPJ0 That is different from what you said earlier . You said there should be some type of regulation to protect farm land . BEPJSOPJ : What I am saying is , if you have property , it is private property . Private property rights is so that you can do w4at you want with your own land . I say , no regulations . CRISPELL : I think it is called Purchaser Development Rights . SCIIEFFLER : My question is , how often are you going to change things around , especially if you have already thought things out , and made a long range plan deciding what regulations were 8 ,/ 2 7 ,/ 9 2 Mtg . # 2 Page 15 SC [iEFFLER : good ideas and then all. of a sudden other changes were brought up after you already rewrote the plan ? You don ' t want to change it so much that there isn ' t a plan at all . JURKOWICH : You have to update the plan every five to ten years . CRISPELL : Situations do change . Maybe there isn ' t a need for it but it is probably a good idea . JURKOWIC [i : Are there any other ideas on this topic ? If not , I would like for us to talk about the Economic Development . Flow about Housing Development ? Do you people have any ideas or concerns with what is happening in this Town ? J . BERNARD : The Head Start program had to move out of the local Day Care because it wasn ' t big enough and - they . had - to 11 reduce the number of kids . In the Town and Village of Groton , we have the highest percentage of children in the County with a need for Head Start . We built a new building up there in Groton for special needs children . They are now moving head Start into Fellowship Hall , which is costing us more money . The School Board voted head Start down in letting them into the Elementary School but one of the plans for the new Elementary School. included [lead Start and they didn ' t follow through with it . S . HOWARD : What happened to the $ 28 , 000 . 00 swing set that we passed ? BEPJSOPd0 I think it got voted down . DEFOREST : Being taxpayers , we are the State Aid . As far as 8 / 27 / 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 16 DEFOREST : State money , we as tax payers are going to get hit with a higher school tax . TOTMANe We should get away from the topic of schools . This meeting is not about that . You people should go to the Town Board and tell them how you feel . S . FIOWARD : What are they going to do with the old Smith Corona site ? TOTMAPJ : They had a Public Hearing on that a couple of weeks ago . They explained that they should be through next summer with all of the testing , after that it will take about five to six years to close the agreement . JURKOWIC11 0 Has anybody here thought about that site as far as its future use ? S . HOWARD : How about a parking lot ? P . PALMER : What about an Industrial Park ? DEFOREST : People talk about other people who are on Public Assistance , food stamps or whatever , but the farmers are getting the same benefit only out of a different hand . Another thing is that farmers are hollering about getting hurt with developing lots . Who are the ones selling the lots ? The farmers are . There are farmers around here watching this happen . It could be pretty drastic to the neigh - 11 borhood if it put the farmers out of business . SCHEFFhER : We talked about building new roads for new houses , does the Planning Department have a master plan on how these roads will be built ? TOTMAPJ : The Village has done this . They make general plans 11 and in some places they make paper streets which helps developers build the roads exactly the way the paper shows . 8Y127 / 92 Mtg . # 2 Page 17 JURKOWICH0 One step beyond that , in the State Law , a Municipality can adopt that as an official. map, The municipality can adopt this paper street system as an official map . If it is changed , then it has to go back through all of the legalities . P . PALMER : Is there some way , in the Town ' s planning , that they could work on paper streets that would run into the Village ' s paper streets which woul. d connect some of the major arteries or country roads where there are no connections now ? JURKOWI CFi That is a good question . Any other questions you might have on the manner in which the Town is run ? CRISPELL : I have a curiosity from an experience that I had . That is , are there specifications in terms of what a highway has to be like before the Town would consider paying for a road ? If the Town did take.. over a -�ro' ad then they had an expense of maintaining the road even though q there was only one house on that road at the very end . TOTMAPd0 Suppose the Planning Board came up with some new rul. es and said that we are suggesting to the Town Board to make a school out on Rte . 38 , Peruville Road , changing that from low density to proposed Industrial. Zoning to encourage Industry out that way or maybe take the four corners of West Groton and change that from low density to medium density ? What would ycu people feel on that ? If we , as a Board , feel we have the consensus of the community , then it will go into our Planning . 8 / 27 / 92 Mtge # 2 Page 18 SCHEFFLER : If you were to attract business to Groton , the hest place for it is near the Tillage because the longer you keep those people in the Town of Groton , the more money they will spend and I think we want that . P . PALMER : It would make them closer to the Services . S . 11OWARD : If you are looking for small industries , you have to look at the type of roads there are . You can ' t stick them up in West Groton to run tractor trailers on . So , you are kind of limited . SCHEFFLER : Define for us what you mean by Light Industry ? TOTMAPJ0 Light industry is like on Main Street , Ithaca Peripherals . They don ' t puff up smoke or make alot of noise . It is something that employs people and brings up your tax base . SCHEFFLER : Sometimes you can ' t plan it the way you want or where you want it to go . They might say that they don ' t want to go there . TOTMAPJ : People in Industry don ' t want to wait until you change your Ordinance . They want it done before they move in . S . 11OWARD : If you do decide a place in which you can put Industries , what are you going to do about housing ? Are you going to say that you can ' t build any more houses in that area ? TWIGG : ?Joe They can ' t do that . TOTMAPJ0 There are communities that say no residential building is allowed in certain areas . TWIGG : When you talk about designating Industrial areas , there are some properties where they won ' t get much benefit out of not being able to sell. it because there is no Industries to buy it ; especially after they have to pay taxes on their property for the rest of their lives . 8i/ 27 ,/ 92 Mtg . # 2 page 19 SCHEFFLER : You have to also assume that the Real Estate agent will not n6glect to tell the buyer that it is going to or is a commercial property . Where can you go to find out ? P . PALMER : You can go to the Town Clerks office . TWIGG : At the meeting the other night , the people made it clear that they didn ' t want growth in the Town of Groton . TOTMANe They also said they wanted the tax base and everything to stay the same . I think that when people say that , they don ' t want growth in the Town , they are saying they don ' t want it in their neighborhood . TWIGG : If the Town wants this land set aside for Industrial purposes , let the �,oTown pay for it instead of the farmers paying taxes on land that he can ' t use or he can ' t sell it for what lie wanted to sell it for . TOTMAPd0 Where do you want it ? SCHEFFLER : On land that is close to the Village , near 222 . I know I don ' t want the Industries in my back yard . JURKOWICH : Let me remind you that there is another meeting next week . Tell your friends and neighbors to come and share more thoughts . ( Meeting closed at 9 * 45 P . M . ) 8 ,/ 2 7 ,/ 9 2 Mtg . # 2 Page 20 I , SANDRA D . DILLON , DO CERTIFY that the minutes of the August 27 , 1992 Public.gllearing at 7 * 00 P . M . were taken by me , and that the foregoing is a true and accurate copy of such to the hest of my ability . a,44�" Sandra Dillon TOWN OF GROTON MASTER PLAN! UPDATE FORUM August 27 , 1992 HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ,NAME: ADDRESS: ABOUT THE MEETING ? i 2 , on ato o Q kv _ _ �C4 l� tr! rl P lo, n n rya 1 )c ►Merl 3 , f�OWArz 51 60 LT zX � h t 8 . O l oti-o 1t � 1 " lay U1 91 10 . 120 13 . �t s 5 Y6 C� sfi . 114 . a - � m �'Qc wit,, �vvw /d'�a c. o- 15 . �a 36 � � l� S ,� G er 16 . 17 . 20 .