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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1992-10-15 f TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD PUBLIC MEETING , 8 : 00 P . M . OCT . 15 , 1992 BOARD PUBLIC PRES ' ' NT * George Totman David Forshee , Groton * Monica Carey Robert Walpole * Cecil Twigg George Senter , Zoning * George VanSlyke Enforcement Officer * Sheldon Clark * Verl Rankin ( * present ) GEORGE TOTMAN opened the meeting to discuss the Forshee III )minor subdivision , tax map number 27 - 1 - 29 . 2 . Discussi a on on the Sherry O ' Brien MVRS Special Permit , Robert Walpole to discuss other business and approve minutes of September ' s meeting were other tonics of discussion . TOTMAN : At the last meeting we discussed the Forshee case . Are there any questions ? CLARK : They look pretty good , I thought . TOTMAN : This is the one ti _ at they wanted to get started on . They have applied for a building permit but couldn ' t get it because it qualified for a subdivision . ( referring to map ) It is on Lick Street . They wanted to get it started . George couldn ' t legally give them a building permit because it wasn ' t approved . So , being that the mother owned the whole lot , she applied for the building permit which m,=ide it legal . Now they want to get a subdivision so that they can get it deeded over to them ,. TWiGG : This makes it a subdivision . TOTMAN : Yes . It leas 1 . 67 acres . ( referring to map ) Az : y questions ? We have to do a Short Environmjntal Assess - ment Form . For those of you who do not know what it is , it is the State Environmr:; ntal Quality Review Act . Before we pass anybody , we have to make sure there is no wildlife or crawling animals or wetland or whatever on the property . PB 10 / 15 / 9 '. Page 2 VANSLYKE : Short Environmental Assessment Form Part I was filled out by owner Part II reviewed by the Board : A . Action Exrceed any Type 1 threshold NO Be Will Action Receive Coordinated Review NO C . Could action result in ANY adverse effects Cl - C7 NO C1 - NO C2 - N0 . It is in Agriculture district but is used for residential . C 3 - NC, C4 - NO C5 - NO . Only as it related to residential development . C6 - None . C7 - None . D . Is there any controversy related to potential adverse environmental impacts ? NO Part III Determination of Significance The Board determined based on the information and analysis of Part I and II and any supporting documentation , that the proposed action WILL NOT result in any significant adverse environm .� ntal impacts . MONICA CAREY motioned to forego the public hearing . CECIL TWIGG seconds the motion . ALL IN FA`•JOK /MOTION PASSED i',; ONICA CAREY motioned to accept the Forshee Minor Sub - division , Tax Map No . 27 - 1 - 29 . 2 . VERL RANKIN seconds the motion . A" L IN FAVOR /MOTION PASSED GEORGE VANSLYKE motioned to approve the minutes of the September meeting . MONICA CAREY seconds the motion . ALL IN FAVOR /MOTION PAUSED Tc; TMAN : Moving on to Tax Map No . 16 - 1 - 7 . 2 . WALPOLE * Let me up date you . I think this is in the process of being changed . ( referring to Tax Map No . 16 - 1 - 7 . 2 ) If everyone would look at this big map , it is all incor - porated in the Bishop Farms ; which is basically the same plot that we talked about last week . On 7 . 4 , that is where Paul and Nancy Brown ' s house sits . Last year , on PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 3 WA-" POLE : December 191". h , supposedly , 274 ft . down from where the East line is going West and going all the way back to the line , was supposed to have been transferred to Nancy and Paul Brown ; it was not . It is supposed to be . There was a screw up in the deed . The balance of this land , down to the edge ( referring to m =ip ) Bishop Farm :3 has now transferred this property to .Fancy and Paul Brown . CARE ' : So they took more than what they had originally planned on ? Wi" LPOLE : That ' s correct , including map # 7 . 5 . There is 1 . 8 acres plus . It is going to be probably transferred all to the Tax Map # 7 . 4 . We are going to have one com*e) lete new tax parcel , which is Variance # 7 . 4 once they get the deed straightened out . You will have a complete new tax parcel there which is approximately 60 or 70 acres . That doesn ' t make it legal here tonight . Them transferring that little piece or supposedly all this in December , triggers a sub - division . They have - lot # l , # 2 , and the . letcthat _ we have sold lot -. #1 .1 here ; triggersi-, al- subd viision . a A , , y6e irif. rom now , that may be the only lot , lot # 7 , which may be transferred . The only land that they were going to subdividd , technically , is the cite plan that we gave you last miJeting . The rest of this is being retained by the sister , which in time , 4 right now is getting the paperwork and deed straightened up ; it will become just one deed and one tax map . TOTMAN : Bob hasn ' t turned anything in yet . This 7 . 5 was supposedly taken off of 7 . 2 in December of last year , but it wasn ' t done according to the deeds . So , it really wasn ' t done . What technically you could look at now , is that the Brown ' s who own 7 . 4 are asking for a Boundary change so they can PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 4 TOTMAN : include 50 to 60 acres to add to theirs . Then they want to sell another lot which triggers a subdivision . VANSLYKE : Why can ' t we just give her a Boundary Change ? TOTMAN : That ' s right , rive her a Boundary Change and James Bishop is asking for the subdivision . Two transactions , not one . WALPOLE : Until this is straightened out ; until we get the proper paperwork , there will be a Boundary Change . This Bishop Farms , technically , today , this has been transferred . This cite plan still stands . The only thing we have really sold is lot # 11 ; but technically , the Building Inspector can ' t issue a building permit . I said it will be up to the Planning Board to tell me which direction to go in . These people have ordered a doublewide based on the informa - tion that we didn ' t think we had a subdivision here . As the paperwork stands right now , no we don ' t need a subdiv - ision . The Brown ' s have been there 15 year :; . 7 . 4 is where Brown ' s house is and it was recorded . Last year , as part of the gift tax , of breaking up the farm , this portion ( referring to map ) came down 274 ft . in from the northwest corner all the way to the south line , was transferred from Bishop Farms to Pau ], 4nd Nancy Brown . The deed is not proper , it only shows 1 . 8 acres . As of today , or yesterday , all the land is being transferred to Nancy and Paul Brown . We will go back to the Assessment Department , get the one form , ani . make it all one tax map . Now we are back strictly dealing with the cite plan , but technically , as it stands tonight , we have triggered a sk:. bdivision according to the Rules and Regula - tions of the Town of Groton . If you come back up and look at what is going to happen , is that if you look at the PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 5 WA14POLE : Boundary Change , that is all going to the Brown ' s . We are still back at the Bishop Farms , but_ if you had an auditor in here , we have triggered a subdivision . TOTMAN : This shows on the tax map number 7 . 5 , it shows on it now , but not in the deeds , so , it is sort of an illegal trans - action . Assuming that the lawyers have found that problem and are rectifying it , and now she is getting alot more acres than that 7 . 5 . It sort of null and voids that trans - action that happened last year in December . As of tonight , according to the lawyers , but as far as we are concerned , they are coming in here saying that was a mistake that was made . It was really a Boundary Change . They are now drawing a line in the middle of the Bishop Farm property . Nancy Brown is adding to her property , only it is just doing a Boundary Change ; it is extending her boundary over . She is just making her lot larger . Then , we would be dealing with the Bishop Farms on whether it needs a subdivision on lot # 11 . They have got a boundary change because she bought the land before the Town passed the zoning laws . SENTER : What Bob is saying is that you don ' t need a subdivision , you have a Boundary Change . TOTMAN : Does everybody agree with that ? When we leave here tonight , George will be getting an application for a building permit on lot # 11 . WALPOLE * This year , that is the only lot that we are going to close . TOTMAN : Does everybody agree on that ? GEORGE VANSLYKE motioned to do a Boundary Change for Nancy and Paul Brown ; tax map # 7 . 4 , road frontage is approximately 1300 ft . ( per B . Walpole ) MONICA CAREY seconds the motion . ALL IN FAVOR /MOTION PASSED Pb 10 / 15 / 92 Page 6 WALPOLE : Only thing we will close this year is lot # 11 . We will come back in . Keep this on hold because the application fee is already paid . Keep it on hold because lot # 7 has a purchase offer pending which we are going to close after the first of the year . Mark on the cite plan : lot # 11 sold , for informational purposes , lot # 7 is under contract right now and will close after the first of the year . TOTMAN : That one , lot # 7 , you will have to come in for a sub - division . WALPOLE * That ' s correct . TO 'CMAN : He is pretty sure lot # 11 is going to be sold . Rather than just to get a subdivision approved for that lot , not knowing what is going to happen to the rest of it , he is going to wait until after the first of the year ; but between now and then , he might have some more purchase offers that might change this . WALPOLE : Every month , I will keep the Building Inspector informd of what we are doing . SENTER0 How big is lot # 11 ? WAT . POLE : Lot # 1 is 4 acres . SEi.,3TER : So you are going to need a minor subdivision ? WALPOLE : Yes . TOTMAN : Any questions ? Ok . The reason Sherry is here tonight is he has to have a special permit to sell used cars or contemplate business up on Sharpsteen Road . His special permit said the sign must comply with the Ordinance ; so , the cars must be kept in line , in an orderly fashion , and i0 / 15 / 92 PB Page 7 TOTMAN : no more than two junk cars should be seen in the public view . According to the neighbors and George Senter , Sherry has had a problem complying with all that . George Senter , the Zoning Enforcement Officer , has some avenues that he has to take because he is hired to keep junk cars in line in the Town . He was also hired to make people comply with the special permit . The Town Board has talked to George and told him that it is his job to make sure that these things that are happening are taken care of either by issuing a Court Order because they are not complying with the rules or taken care of personally . In this particular case , the permit was issued by the Planning Board and the Planning Board can pull the permit and he can ' t operate„ at all if he doesn ' t follow the rules or he can come down , meet with us , talk to us and try to figure out what the problem is ; and to see if he can do something to rectify it so he can operate according to the Rules and Regulations in the Town of Groton . SENTER : That is what happened . I was hoping to get an amiable solution . TOTMAN : If you have the Rules and Regulations , you have to apply them to everyone . That is why Sherry is here . O ' BRIEN : What do you call so - called junk cars ? TOTMAN0 An unlicensed car and if they are not turn key cars . O ' BRIEN : Wait a minute , I am supposed to be allowed to sell used cars according to the permit . TOTMAN : If a car is supposed to be for sale , it is considered a turn key car °. PB 1. 0 / 15 / 92 Page 8 O ' BRIEN : ANything that will run is a t , ) -r - n key car , right ? TOTMAN : Yes . George would have to determine if it is a turn key or not . SENTER : Or whether it will start or not . TO7MAN : It has to be kept in an orderly fashion also . When we did this before , I thought we talked about 10 cars out there . We talked about keeping them in direct line , two rows or the way a normal used car lot looks . O ' BRIEIV -. I also have a Body Shop . It is kind of hard to , for instance , I got one up there now , a pickup truck . �I bought a cap , cab , and a box for ; that is sitting out there now . Do you classify that as a so called junk car ? TOTMAN : Is that the only one sitting out there ? O ' BRIEN : No . TOTMAN : The rest of them that are out there are not related to that one that you are repairing , or are they just sitting there waiting for someday you might need a part off of them ? O ' BRIEN : Ncj . I can not sell parts . I do not have a dismantlers license . CAREY : Are using those cars sitting around up there for repairing other cars ? Are you using parts off of them Lo repair. others ? O ' BRIEIVo The only thing I got setting up there right now is one that has got to be fixed ; except for the box and the cab . TOTMAN : Are they customer cars ? O ' BRIEN : No . I have three of them . SENTERc What did you have down front ? I see you had some-i activity with a wrecker or car carrier ; what was happening ? PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 9 O ' BR1 EN : I took some cars . SENTER : Are any cars in there . . . . you told me that there were no cars in there that were used cars ; is that true ? You said , at that time , when you and I talked last , that they were all customer cars and some were waiting for payment , and that sort of thing . O ' BRIEN : What happened is , the ones I am waiting for payment , if I don ' t get it , they disappear . SENTER : I see . TOTMAN : Would you disagree with me if I said that over the course of the last six months , there has been as many as 25 - 30 cars sitting out there ? O ' BRIEN : No . TWIGG : What does the permit say ? I don ' t remember the car number he was allowed to have . TOTMAN . Cars should be kept in line and in an orderly fashion . It doesn ' t say . It does say no more than two junk cars . Junk cars are not cars that are for sale . Junk cars are cars that are not a turn key car . ( Passing around pictures taken in May of this year ) O ' BRIEN : The whole problem is I don ' t work every day of the week . I am disable . If I don ' t feel up to it , I don ' t work . If I feel good , then I work . Alot of the cars I fix , alot of them don ' t care if it takes two days or two weeks . The way I was told about junk cars is , that anything that doesn ' t have plates on is called a junk vehicle , but any - thing that runs is not a junk vehicle . There is a big difference there . That is why I am here . That is what I PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 10 O ' BRIEN : came here to find out . As long as they run , you can not classify them as a junk vehicle , right ? CARE ) : As long as you can put a key in it and drive away . O ' BRIEN : Well , there is two up there right now with dead batteries in them . TOTMAN : The Town has Rules and Regulations , and they hire the Code Enforcement Officer to do the job . They have guidelines to follow and if he goes and denies one person and let ' s Sherry do it because he has a back back , we can ' t use that for an excuse . O ' BRIEN : What the whole hastle has been is , there has been a big disagreement between George and I about junk vehicles . Anything that runs does not classify as junk vehicles . The only thing I got up there right now is customer cars . There are some that are not road worthy but they run . They belong to other people . TOTMAN : What we are talking about is a car that is a turn key car . A turn key car is a car that you put a key in and start it ; and drive it down the road . O ' BRIEN : See that ' s where the whole hastle is , because if these were all customer cars , if they were road worthy , they would not be at my place . SENTER : Sherry , you are talking about used cars now ? TOTMAN : We are not talking about used cars . If you are storing customer cars , if that is the case , and if they will be there for months and months , then I guess the point would be they would have to leave them at their house until you are ready for them . Then they would be in trouble not you . We are trying to come up with a peaceful solution . PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 11 TWIGG = Why don ' t we have a quantity unit ? TOTMAINi : This was done about 8 or 9 years ago . We do have a limit now . SENTER : We should have how many used cars can he have , how many customer cars can he have , and how many junk cars can he have ? ( referring to pictures ) TOTMAN : � These pictures were taken in May of 1992 . TWIGG : What is the solution here ? Does his permit come up for reclassification ? TOTMAN : Yes , every year . In order to get it renewed , he has to comply with the Ordinance . VANSLYKE : If you weren ' t using cars for repairing , why would there be frames around ? O ' BRIEN : There wasn ' t alot of frames . VANSLYKE : You said you didn ' t use these vehicles for dismantling , to sell the parts , but you would use the vehicles so that you could repair a car that is in your shop ? How many vehicles in the pictures are road worthy cars ? SENTER : Are you talking used cars for sale ? VANSLYKE _ No , vehicles that were there , not used cars . o ' BRIEN : What the whole problem was , I had six of them there . One I fixed but the person couldn ' t pay for it . One is mine , I sold it . ( referring to pictures ) The one the person couldn ' t afford to pay for , what do I do with it ? I don ' t have the paperwork for it . You can ' t sell vehicles without paperwork . I probably lost about $ 5 , 000 . 00 to people who had left their vehicles there and I never got paid for them . I had to haul them out . VANSLYKE : What do you do with them ? 10 / 15 / 92 PB Page 12 O ' BRIEN : They left . I was not home . Legally , anything that is left there overnight for 90 days is mine . VANSLYK -1; : Do you have a sign up that says that ? O ' BRIEN : No . I have a sign that says I am not responsible if any - thing is stolen . CLARK : Could you draw us a picture of what it is going to look like ? Your lot . O ' BRIEN : It is a mess up there right now . What it is going to be is two lines . Everything will be together . It is on my application . TOTMAN . Supposing we said 10 cars are allowed for sale . O ' BRIEN : What about customer cars ? TOTMAN : We are going to say he can put it anywhere he . wants to put it , as long as there is a driveway between the rows of cars to drive through . Supposing we say 10 cars , used cars , for sale . Customer cars , we are talking about cars people bring in to get fixed . We are not talking about cars that have to wait until next Spring to be fixed . O ' BRIEN : That won ' t work . I have four right now waiting for motors . TOTMAN : He can have 10 used cars . No more than two so - called junk cars , cars waiting to be repaired . There is no limit inside . O ' BRIEN : What if I put a fence up ? TOTMAN : If we agreed to let you put up a fence , with George Senter sitting here , to me it would be unethical . O ' BRIEN : Why ? TOTMAN : Because there is a junk yard law that says if you have two or more cars , you have to get a license for a junk yard , then you have to put up a 6 or 7 ft . fence . If you are talking about two or three cars aild they aren ' t visible PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 13 TOTMAN : from the road . . . . . O ' BRIEN : I have no place to hide them . TOTMAN : If you put up a fence and put cars back there , that can ' t be out front , that constitutes a junk yard . O ' BRIEN : Wfty ? TOTMAN : Because that is the law . Only the Town Board can issue a license , we can ' t . O ' BRIEN : Let me rephrase that . Can you stop me from putting up a fence ? TO 'i`MAN : If you put a fence - up ` on yourproperty ands if it is not 6 ft . high and it is not blocking the view from the roads , you can build a fence . O ' BRIEN-1 One more thing . What is the boundary for the fence ? TOTMAN : Sherry , if you put up a fence , it can ' t be over 6 ft . high and it isn ' t blocking the road , George has no authority to tell you how long the fence could be . O ' BRIEN : What I want to know is how far back from the center of the road ? SENTER : It has to be on your property . TOTMAN : It has to be 50 ft . back . 80 _Ft . from the center of the road . We can not legally sit here and help you circum - vent the law . O ' BRIEN : No , I am not asking you to . TOTMAN : If somebody reports that somebody has two or three cars that they are storing and George has to investigate it , he can do it from the air or ground . You could put a canvas over a couple or put them behind your garage . O ' BRIEN : I can ' t get behind my garage . It is all wet . VANSLYKE : When you bring in business , how many of those do you really PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 14 VANSLYKE : think you need to have in order to make a go of it ? WF�Lat quantity of customer cars coming in do you really sincerely need to have around you at one time in order to maintain your business ? Haw many vehicles do you really need to have sitting around the yard in the process of being repaired ? In other words , usually there is a certain period of time that there is a turnover and that car is repair - ed and gone and you don ' t end up with the thing setting in your yard ? What I am crying to get at is a number that you feel comfortable with . O ' BRIEN : I can ' t say . TOTMAN : If you know you can ' t work on a car right away , let it stay at their house until you are ready . O ' BRIEN : I have done that . TOTMAN : Sometimes you don ' t . It has happened . VANSLYKE : How many cars do you really need to have that are in the process of getting ready to be repaired ? O ' BRIEN : It takes a while waiting for parts . TOTMAN : Look at it from this day forward . Before you leave , I want to get some dimensions . O ' BRIEN : How big is it ? . S _. NTER : What ? O ' BRIEN* Where the cars are placed ? SENTER : 25 - 30 ft . wide . If you make some type of interpretation of how many customer cars , used cars , how am I going to be able to tell the difference ? O ' BRIEN : There is room for 9 or 10 on the side at least . CAGEY : You said you could live with ten ca. rs :. .. : . PB 10 / 15 / 9 � Page 15 O ' BRIEN . I can ' t . I have 8 or 9 there now . I have 18 total . TOTMAN : We have agreed that he can have 10 turn key cars in a parallel line ; in two lines in a designated area :, there will be enough room to drive between the two rows . If you keep them in a neat , orderly fashion , the customl:: r cars instead of being strewed up and down the driveway , put them in the back side of this designated area . Let ' s say four customer cars . O ' BRIEN : It will never work . I got 9 customer cars now . carey ; How many cars can you work around in the garage ? O ' BRIEN : Three inside . I have 9 customer cars . TOTMAN : There will be absolutely no junk cars . The for sale cars will be up front in two lines in an orderly fashion . You are allowed ten of those . If we make the space enough for 14 cars , ir - regardless of what they are , as long as they aren ' t junk . That gives you room for 7 or 8 customer cars there as long as they are in a line and they don ' t look like junk . VANSLYK : '. : Why do you feel you need to have 20 vehicles ? O ' BRLEN : Alot of times , I wait for parts . TOTM.L'iN : What we do is we don ' t wnat to under value somebody ' s property . If we allow 12 or 14 for sale cars in there , that leaves him room for six or eight customer cars or more if he doesn ' t have any cars for sale . SENTER0 Smaller than that , 140 by 100 ft . TOTMAN : We will designate George to go up and meet with Sherry and lay out so much road frontage and so much feet back ; that is the area that is going to be used for these two lines with the driveway in between them . When and if we PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 16 TOTM.±.N : issue the permit , it will be the dimensions George gets when he goes up there . That size on there says that he can ' t have no more than two junk cars , ten turn key cars in this designated lot , as long as they are kept in a neat and orderly fashion ; no m15re than 12 or 14 cars , as long as they are par }. ed in an orderly fashion . We will leave it as that . SENTER : No designation as to what each is ? TOTMAN : We are not talking about cars with no fenders . I ' ll go for 12 : four for sale cars , eight for customer cars or whatever . What do you guys want to set as a limit ? VANSLYKE : 14 . TOTMAN : When we leave here tonight , George can say these are the figures . Sherry will measure. No more than two junk cars visible from the road . No more than 14 cars in an orderly parallel fashion in designated area . It gives you up to December 6 , 1992 . In order for George to accept this , it has to be done by the first of the year . If it is after the first , if he doesn ' t get this renewed , then George will see him cited and he has to go to Court for operating without a license . Sherry , when George gives you this , and you accept it , this is the way it has to be . What I would like is to have George bring more pictures back so we can see it is cleaned up . O ' BRIEN : Oka ( Sherry O ' Brien case closed ) TOTMAN : I gave you something when you came in from the County Planning Department . It is a questionnaire . They are asking 10 / 15 / 92 Page 17 PB TOTMAr:T : each diSttict to fill it out . CARRY : What is a vision statement ? TOTMAN : Usually every County has a vision statement as to what you want the Town to look like in the next five to ten years . Questions such as what is your goal ? Why are you making a Zoning Ordinance ? You have to have a plan first then the Zoning Ordinance . The County needs some kind of a Vision Plan or Comprehensive plan . In order for the County to do it , they need input from the surrounding municipalities as to what they think . CAREY : What is the County planning ? What is it that they want to find out ? TOTMAN : The idea is , if the County made a plan , and the involved or surrounding municipalities weren ' t asked for input or let known of the changing of laws , then there would be Iff alot of griping after it was done ; why they weren ' t involved in the planning process . If you agree with what I answered then sign the back of mine . If not , then make out your own . One other thing before you go , I went to the Town Board mleting the other night and told them not to pick a name yet for a new member for the Planning Board . I made sure that those three names did get to the members of the Town Board , In July , a new law was passed giving the Town Board the authority to require a certain amount of atten - dance to Planning Board meetings and giving the Town Board ' s authority to demand that there be some kind of training for members . The County has already agreed to put on these sessions . As . I said , the Town Board does have the three names which we chose . They were mailed to them . My feeling d • PB 10 / 15 / 92 Page 18 TOTMAN : is , if the . new member doesn ' t wnat to take time to go to these meetings , then they are not going to be a good Planning Board member . GEORGE VANS : .,YKE motioned to adjourn . TWIGG seconds it . ALL IN FAVOR /MO `CION PASSED I , SANDRA DEE DILLON , DID TAKE THE above minutes of said meeting , and the above is a true and accurate transcription to the best of my ability . r Sandra Dillon