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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1992-09-17 1 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING , THURSDAY , SEPTEMBER 17 , 1992 @ 8 : 00 P . M . BOARD PUBLIC PRESEwr * George Totman Robert Walpole * Monica Carey * Cecil Twigg * George Van Slyke Sheldon Clark * V`erl Rankin ( * present )II GEORGE TOTMAN , Chairman of , the . Board opened meeting at 8 : 00 R . M . Topics of discussions were approval of minutes , the Bishop Farms for Robert . Walpole , and - C'ircuit^, Rider Meetings . TOTMANO Robert Walpole came in tonight to talk about the ! Bishop Farms on Chipmans Corners Rd . , Town of Groton . WALPOLE * {! The majority of their farm is located in Cortland County . Bruce Davidson did the preliminary work here . There are ' 55 acres in the Town of Groton . If you proceed North , lyou ' ll see Sears Rd . ( referring to map ) This particul. a itax parcel has had nothing sold out of it yet . There ar 11 lots there . As it looks right now , we have a purchas Hoffer on lot # 11 , which is on Sears Rd . That does not trigger subdivision regu. l,,ations . If you come back down to the intersection where the old barn is located on lot # 1 and # 2 , we have a person looking at # 1 and # 2 that has given us an offer but nothing has been done on it yet . Lots # 3 and #4 , # 5 and # 6 , we have a purchase offer pending on all of them as one unit . We have not done anything with the purchase offer ` . yet . We have a purchase offer on lot # 7 , which we have not accepted or heard anything on it yet . The only lot that will be officially sold and closed in 1992 , will be lot # 11 , ii P . B . . 9 / 17 / 92 Page 2 WALPOLE : 1I just want you to be aware of that so that when it comes through , you will know we may not be needed to Pcome in for a subdivision yet . If we sell # 1 and # 2 , as a unit , and # 3 , #4 , # 5 , # 6 as a unit ; I ' ll come in and go for a rule on a subdivision or at least put you on notice that that is how we are going to sell it . TWIGG : g What is the rule , rural ? WALPOLE * To be 250 ft . TWIGG : Yes , but three or more or two or more ? WALPOLE . No . More than five acres each . TWIGG : Yes , but how many lots ? WALPOLE It can go as five before it triggers it . If we maintain lots # 8 , # 9 , and # 10 individual lots , then I am not sure how you want us to handle this . We got one person lookin at lot # 8 ; and # 9 as a unit , so we may only end up with only six units . of about 150 acres and we got the road dividing it . I also want the Planning Board to be aware that we ' ll do what we have to do , but we may not be required to trigger a subdivision . I am not sure about that . CAR-EY Is it all one tax parcel ? WALPOLE : ij Yes . I can get away with # 11 right now . I may have to come back to you on # 8 , # 9 , and # 10 if we keep that the same way . RANKIN . You said leaving 1'610s # 3 , #4 , #5 , and # 6 are selling as one unit ? WALPOLE : I Yes . The 'y will have to come back in . One of the reason why we haven ' t approached this down anymore is because 1 P . B . 9j/ 17 / 92 Page 3 WALPOLE : ' We had to do alot of work on it to decide how we wanted to have it sold . Lets # 1 and # 2 appears now to be or will be one unit . Very well # 3 , , #4 , # 5 , and # 6 will be ,, one unit . # 11 will be one unit . # 7 is going to be one kunit . I am not sure what # 8 , # 9 , and # 10 will have . TOTMAN : If you present it the way it is now , it is going to be called a major subdivision . If you , on the right hand side of the road , are selling # 11 , that means that you can ' t sell anything on the other side of the road unless u you come in and get a subdivision for the rest of them . WALPOLE : , Right . ij TOTMAPJ : Over on the left hand side , going out , it would not be wise to ask for a subdivision now because you are not sure whether lots # 3 , #41 # 5 , # 6 are going to be single lots . You might better wait until yoia can find out for scare if they are all going to be one lot then you can come in and ask for a subdivision . On the other side of the road you are pretty sure of selling it the way It is , right ? WALPOLE : " Basically , the reason I am here tonight is that it goes down in record that when . the attorneys start calling , u you are aware of what is going on . We would like it all legal . In the purchase offer , as in lot # 11 purchase offer , lots # 2 , # 3 , #41 #51 # 6 are all subject to the Planning Board approval ; whether it meets approval or not Another thing is , that there is a deed restriction in it that no single wides are allowed ; we are allowing double wides . P . B . 9 / 17 / 92 Page 4 TOTMAPJs That should be made a matter of record because once you , told us and once it is approved, then they have to stay ' that way by law . WALPOLE : We are looking, at this point , based on what the ; assessment has been in recent developments , is an increase of about $ 350 , 000 to $ 400 , 000 assessment . The Inew assessment based on the square footage up here from A • 11960 to 1 , 000 come in at $ 182 , 000 for the three houses on Spring Street . So , you know this is a $ 70 , 000 . 00 ; project . This whole package , by the time they get the , well , septic , etc . in , it is $ 50 , 000 . 00 after . TOTMANee Does anybody have any questions on what Bob wants to do ? TWIGG . Can we waiver this five acres minimum on the rural subdivision or is that a fixed measurement ? TOTMAPJs That is fixed . The way things are Laid out , there reall wouldn ' t be much difference in a minor or a rural , even if you went to a Public Hearing . You don ' t really have that many; ; neighbors around there any way . It is still a legal division of the land . With the guidelines that " are set up in this book , the public will have to come up with some really good reasons for not wanting it in the neighborhood . WALPOLE * ,,, Another thing %tea that we are doing with the purchase p offers is it is the buyers expense to design their own septic . That gives them an out to the purchase offer . TOTMAN .9 " Of course , if you ask for a subdivision that has five or more , then you don ' t have the option . 9 ,/ 17 / 92 P . B . Page 5 WALPOLE * Yes you do because the reason why is that they are chargling $ 13 , 000 . 00 for a septic system . This way , by having them get their own , we have no liability . J TOTMAN . If it is five or more , before we can give approval , Ji.bn the subdivision , we have to have - the statement from the Health Department saying that those particular lands , ; Lots , are acceptable: They don ' t have to say whatAs ( going to go on there . Another choice is they can cross off the lot that doesn ' t qu`alify . WALPOLE : For my protection , there would be a contingency in the (� 11 h contract stating that thie individual �cT�nsult with the r.` Health Department and that he hire his own contractor to make sure - that the contractor understand's the rules and regulations of the Health Department ; so�,� that gives him 1, an out on the purchase offer . I have one other thing to discuss . Since we don ' t have any tax maps , take Spri g Street . Ext . , all the way to the corner of Town Line Rd . GYou turn left and proceed South onto Town Line until you hit ;tte intersection of Munson Road , which goes to the right which is in the Town of Lansing . The rest of that road is abandoned by the Town of Groton and the Town of Lansng�.i There is 75 Acres and this section ( refer to map ) of the road is legal , the rest is abandoned . We have sold 21 . 6 acres which is 640 ft . of road frontage off of that . There will be a place in the deed that states that this road is abandoned and that the Town of Groton or. the Town of Lansing don ' t maintain it . So , there is no misunderstanding on this as to the right of way . 9 ,/ 17 / 92 P . B . Page 6 WALPOLE *. What we weren ' t scare of is that they are trying to tell ia'�s , or Munsonk' s are , that the Town of Lansing deeded back 11 their portion of it to the Munson ' s ; but we don ' t find any proof of that . TOTMAPJs Who owns the land ? WALPOLEs Brian Barber . TOTMAN * The guy who owns this land has been told by the Town attorney that he owns half the road . WALPOLEs fie was on the phone to me this afternoon and says there is no documentation on that . There is nothing in his ab - stract that says that . The Toup of , Groton has abandoned their land , I think it is 25 ft . As ,far as I am concerned if the Town of Lansing did deed it back , there is still 25 ft . right of way 'zdbw' n to the Town of . Groton . People still have a right to get hack down through there . The :Town Of Groton has never deeded it back . RANKIN9 Groton has never abandoned their section of it ? WALPOLE9 ,Lansing has abandoned it . There is 52 acres left . TWIGGs "What do they do when they abandon a road ? Does it automatically go back ? TOTMAN * uNormally they give it hack to the landowner that is there " now . WALPOLEsiIn my recollection , if the Town abandons it and does not maintain it , there is still a right of way down through , that property . You physically have to transfer it by deed to the owner . If it has not been deeded hack , it is still considered as a right of way . TOTMAPJ0 If it is Town property , if something happened they would get sued for it . 9 / 17,4/ 92 P . B . Page 7 I WALPOLE .. Unless you land Lock . . . . . TOTMAN *0 You can ' t land lock something . WALPOLE : Fie has a right of way on that '' section of the road unless it has been deeded over . Even today , the Town attorney is saying that Barber owns it , but they haven ' t provided any documentation yet . TO 'PMAPJ0 I was led to believe he could put the fence out to the middle of that road . WALPOLE : Well , maybe he can , but the Town of Groton still owns it . There is nothing here in the records that shows different . TOTMANo That is dangerous to abandon the road and not take it back . The only thing the Town is gaining is they don ' t ,have to maintain it . They are still liable if anything should happen . That is not good insurance . CAREY : Would they consider re - opening that road ? WALPOLE : "Phat is up to them . CAREY : ; Would that help the situation ? WALPOLE0 It is going to cost the taxpayers . RANKING From Spring Street over to Munson , that is Groton , do 11 they maintain that ? 11 WALPOLE : IiI am not sure . Corny says that Lansing maintains it . RANK IPd0 F ciw3come Groton only owns 25 ft ? WALPOLE0 That is the abandoned part , it is 25 ft . abandoned in a 50 ft . right of way . You see , as long as we put in the deed that the road is abandoned , and that the Town does not maintain it , there is a right of way . TOTMANo There is a Road in Lansing called Dates Road . The road 9 ,/ 17 / 92 P . B . Page TOTMAN .o strictly a cemetary , so they never officially abandoned it . It was never maintained . When the people came in three or four years ago and asked for a building permit , it wias an official Town road . What happened was the Town was real sorry they never did it . Immediately after he 11'ad his building started , the Town made him build a ' ;.ess pool ar,oundhis place , they had to do it . The road is a mile long . Fiis house was 1 , 000 fte up from one end . WALPOLE . Is there any way that you know for sure , that this road is deeded ? TOTMAN 0 I ' ll find out . 11 ji WALPOLEe It is not in the abstract . The Town of Groton has no record here . There is no deed . TOTMAN : What you would have to do is , if you sold these separately ,, you would have to have that jog in there off of that property to build that property to meet this road out here . WALPOLE .* It sounds to me , we have a misinterpretation here between attorney ' s . TOTMAN : It could make a big difference here and solve alot of problems later on . WALPOLE : 'I would like to clarify it , either that or the Town of ;Groton deed this whole thing , then it eliminates it . What is a right of way by law ? TOTMAN .* Access to a piece of property . WALPOLE . 'Fiere the Town of Groton owns it . ( referring to map ) TWIGG . " It really doesn ' t matter if the Town of Groton owns it Ilor Barber owns it ; it is still a right of way . WALPOLE : ' If Barber owns it , it eliminates the right of way . 9 ,/ 17 ,E 9 2 u P . B . . Page TWIGGe It.r )the a that is going to buy this other 25 acres guy g g Y 11 bought the right of; way to get back through there , it really doesn ' t matter whether the guy whotIlbuys the lot buys the right of way or whether the Town owns the right of way . It is an access . RANKIN : Yes , but the Town already owns the 25 ft . ; they already own to that first property . WALPOLE : The tax map specifically shows that . TWIGGe There isn ' t much use for the Town owning a right of way black through there . WALPOLE : We will cancel the sale if we have a prohl. em here . Based on all research and everything , the Town of Groton still owns the right of way even though they have abandoned it . TOTMAPJ : So , basically this is for information purposes ? WALPOLE : That ' s correct . I would ask the Planning Board if anothe 20 units are sold , 25 acres are sold , is it legal for a subdivision ? We have the Town of Groton who owns the road and has abandoned it , but by the New York State Law , there still exists a right of way . TOTMAMJ : From both Town ' s standpoint ; from the Town of Groton , I have got to determine if they can come back and give you 'a legal subdivision in there or not . My gut feeling is right now , no . I will go to both Towns . I have to get with both attorney ' s on this . WALPOLE : ,! There are two ways to solve this problem . We can continu " the sale on this one ( referring to map ) or we can sell this as one unit with the access of this 25 ft . 9 �/ 17 / 92 P . B . Page 10 Meeting continued with the approval of the minutes of the June 1 ,8 and August 20 . GEORGE VAN SLYKE made the motion to pass the June 18 minutes . MONICA CAREY second the motion . All in fav„or ,/Motion passed . MONICA ;CAREY made motion to pass August 20 minutes of meeting . GEORGE VAN SLYKE second the motion . All in favror /motion passed . 11 TOTMA1 .* We have the minutes from the first meeting and our job is to go over all this stuff and try to put it _ o.n paper . L and make some kind of report so that we can report hack to the general public on how we analyzed the survey and what they told us at these meetings . You will get them next week so that you will have some time to analyze them October 11 Thursday night at 7 : 30 P . M . , we will have a meeting in between meetings to meet with the Circuit Riders from the Planning Board just for the purpose of trying to put this all together and to work with it . ,The only way we are going to be able to do this is for ,all of us to read this through , so that we can have some idea of what we are talking about . Alot of these people were sincere coming to these meetings . We , as a Board , ; have of to analyze that , g y get it on paper as to what it Ile s and we got to sit down and either do it as a whole group and have Committee Meetings and take all this that 11we got and go back through this . That means time . Also to relate to what they are telling us as it relates to ° this and then make our suggestive changes to the Town Board , which means we are going to be looking at lot , ( road frontage , the sign part ofImthe Ordinance , looking 11 Ilat some of the things people are saying as to , do they like or don ' t like it . Once we get it all down and charted for the girls ; from what we discussed from our meetings . . . . 9 / 17 ,/ 92 P . B . Page 1J TOTMAPd : It is going to take some time and effort on our part . Ilwould like some feelings from the Board as to how you want to handle it . CAREY : My opinion is , why can ' t we get the Town Board members to help us a little bit more on this ? They are the ones who are going to make the final decision . Flow do we really know what the Town Board feels ? TWIGG : Flow is the Town Board going to know how to vote or whether to OK the changes that we side on if they are not in on some of the reasons why we . are doing what we are doing ? ° TOTMAN : Fiow it is normally done is , we get together , sit down , 11 take all the stuff an-d try to make some common sense out of it and we make some tentative changes as we see they might need or not need . Before we spend the money to put . it into a book form ,; and give it to the Town Board ; that ' s when you ask for a joint meeting with the Town Board and go through this step by step . The Town Board takes what the Planning Board gives them and either accepts it , changes it ; pass it or reject it . The Planning Board recommends to the Town Board ; that is State Law . The Town Board acts upon it there . TWIGG : We have to get them involved somewhere before we get all the work done . TOTMANe ,You can ' t get them involved until you got something to ,show them . TWIGG : We really didn ' t get enough people out at these meetingsr ' to get enough ideas ; except maybe by their absence . Maybe ` 9 / 17 / 92 P B . Page 12 If TWIGG : they are satisfied with the way things are and aren ' t U set in any way . We sit here and look at alot of things that the general public doesn ' t see . CAREY : All they did was argue at the meeting as to if they wanted the lots larger or smaller . We didn ' t get an answer . r RANKIN .o We have been charged by the Town Board to do something . The Town Board has been elected by the Public to run the Town ' s � business . The Town appointed us to handle this end of the Town Board ' s business . We have got to have If If Public Hearing again any way . TOTMANo !Before we can officially give it to the Town Board , you g t ;to hold another official hearing . That is by law . You :have to hold one official hearing saying what we are ;proposing to change . That is where I think we will get more people at . CAREY : When they asked if you found somebody else in another " Town who had done this ; what kind of development , how the ! encourage development , etc . , did you learn anything ? You went to the National meetings . . . . . . TOTMAN : ' Right , that was different . There is one coming up in 11 " November which will be more informative . Do any of you ( have any names for David Chatterton ' s replacement ? ° For the record , we have , Mark Perosio who lives on Devlon Road , Dan Cerranti who lives on Gulf Hill Road , and Diane Ledvina who lives on Tork Road . You guys pick out a name and we ' ll give it to the Town Board . When you asked me about a name of a Town who went through what we are ; the Umalftfrom NYSEG gave me a name and 9f 17 /192 P . B . Page 1.3 TO'PMAPds address so that we could contact them . Would you like for me to pursue it and find out when it would be convenient for us to meet with them ? I can talk to them without making any committments . I just wanted to make sure the Board agrees `: I will have George Senters ii come to the meeting that we have as it pertains to any 11changes in Zoning . That way he ' ll be aware of what we ;;have in mind and plan on doing . �iCECIL TWIGG made the motion to close the meeti g . GEORGE VANSLYKE second the motion . ALL IN FAVOR /MOTION PASSED . Meeting adjourned 10 * 00 p . m . I , SANDRA DEE DII,LOPJ , DO CERTIFY that at the September 17 , 1992 meeting at 8s00 P . M . Thursday night , did take the minutes of said meeting and the foregoing is a true and accurate copy of said meeting to the best of my ability .