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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1992-07-02 i TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing , July 2 , 1992 , 8 : 00 PM MAJ OR SUBDIVISION proposed b ROGER GI, EASON located west of p Y hick , St . ,and north of Old Stage Rd . known pas Morton Farmlands ; 'Pax Map No . 121 - 1 - 21 . 2 BOARD PUBLIC PRESENT * T e rg G o . g .E _ otman , Chairman DeFo _ est Hall , Groton , N . Y . * Cecil Twigg Roger Gleason , 327 Old Stage R . * David Chatterton Groton , N . Y . * George VanSlyke Alberto Maccou , 896 Lick St . , * Vert Rankin Groton , N . Y . Monica Ca �� ey Steven 'Phane , 186 Old Stage Rd * Sheldon Clark Willis Sheldon , 467 Clark St . Dale & Sherry Murray , 670 Lick St . ( * present ) G . rotman , Chairman , opened the public hearing with the reading of the public notice : Notice is hereby given , that pursuant to Section 245 of Town of Groton Land Use and Development. Code , a public `hearing will be held by the Planning Board of the 'Down of Groton , Tompkins County , New York , on Thursday , July 2 , 1992 , . at 8 : 00 P . M . at the Town Fall , 101 Conger �I Blvd . , for the purpose of considering the application of Roger W . Gleason for the approval of a Major Sub - division of Parcel 121 - 1 - 21 . 2 consisting of five lots ,with a minimum lot size of 1 . 84 acres . Said premises are located in an agricultural zone on Lick Street . All parties interested and citizens will be given an 4 opportunity to be heard in respect to such proposed ap - plication . PO 'PMAN : Now , does everybody understand that ' s here . . . . . . just so that you understand what ' s proposed to be subdivided . I know you do , I don ' t know if you do or not . I; PHANE : My name is Steven 'Phane , I live on 186 Old Stage Rd. . I am not sure , I haven ' t seen a map or anything , so that I am not sure etractly which parcel you ' re talking about . TO 'TMAN : OK , I ' ll show you . Roger had it surveyed , but the surveyor , map didn ' t put in the right of way , so we have to use_ the preliminary sketch . ( Indicating ) These three lots right here are the ones on hick St . , the one on Lick St . is the one that Roger is proposing to sell out three lots , proving a 60 foot right of way into the back parcel . HALL : The three lower ones and two upper ? Oh , these are the existing ones ? 'TOTMAN : The ones that show on the tax map that have got the tax numbers on are already existing . They have been approved before . We ' are seeing five of them , there are , we are talking five , because this one around back is another one lot . ( Talking together ) TO 'TMAN * Is there any questions . . . . anybody ? Are there any auestions from anyone ? HALT, : I have one . TO 'TMAN : OK , who are you ? HALL : My name is DeForest Hall . TO 'TMAN * Where do you live ? HALL : 721 Salt Rd . I don ' t understand how this agrici;ilture district works that was set up to reserve farmland and yet we are allowing growth , building lots to take L, " place on it . What ' s the story behind it ? TOTMAN : I can give you my best answer ; as I recall , when it was set up , was to benefit the farmer in they keep giving him tax breaks on land that he declared ; we 41 ro ,rMAN : ( cont ' d ) declared these agricuiltural districts . . . . . . - outside the village and these districts are re - evaluated every year by the State , so people can ask to be taken into certain areas of the town or taken out of the Agriculture District . The purpose for it would being it It that the farmer wanted to declare that particular part of his farm or his whole farm in the Ag . District for the pi;urpose of getting tax breaks , he could do that If he sold parcels of land off of that , then he had to pay back the last three years the money that he had saved from not the full paying 1 amount of the taxes ; but it wasn ' t designed to be a detriment to the farmer , if he wanted to sell out land to survive on . Now , there is , nowadays , there ' s a big push on reserving farm land ; they call it protecting the farmer , but what it really is is trying to putshackles on the farmer so he can ' t sell his land , and it ' s running into alot of opposition in this . I know it ' s in the State it Assembly right now and I know in the town of Ithaca and some of the other towns are trying to pass laws saying that if it ' s farmland , you can ' t sell it . If it ' s not farmland , it ' s . not protecting the farmer . But there was never any intent on this one originally as to keep the farmer from selling his land , as I understand it . 11AL,L, : I thought it was , I , not necessarily from selling his land , but to preserve agricultuiral land for future production . ' r TOTMAN : ,II I suppose it was probably looked at , at a certain IIII, .I time , because it was giving him some tax breaks so j' that he would stay on his farm and not thinking in taxes . I think it was part . . . koger was on the original Agriculture District CommitteeI and he ' s still on it . GLEASON : You ' re correct . TQTMAN : These guys are farmers , I ' m not . I, IIALL : I don ' t ever see him . . . the lad* ' s the law , who am I to . . . . . 'POTMAN : Anything more about the Agriculture District ? Is there anything more about then what I explained ? BOARD * I think that was the sole purpose of it to give the farmer a tax break . d BALL : I am not the only one that ' s with this assumption that , It hey , w' 6it , stop , stop , this is a crock of bock , or I whatever word you want to use . All this agriculture , III good agriculture land is going into building lots ; is it about like plazas and all that going into black top . Hey , wait a mini;ite , we ' ll see some of this farmland q , It that we wished we had it , in pr' odi;iction instead of si;ibi;irbia . rl ( Talking ) TOTMAN : BlAt , Mr . Hall , if you owned that land , would you want ;III me to tell you that you can ' t sell it to somebody ? i I HALL : That ' s what I was about to say , is that we have to be careful that we , you knot~* , voice opinion on anything p I G whether its any type of tz"on=ing ;that it doesn ' t infringe on our fut ill re . ,III it liE ro ,rMAN : You ' re not alone on you ' re thinking , because there ' s clot of people wherever you go and not just in Groton that think that agricultural land means that you can ' t do anything other than farm on it and you can ' t sell out ; you can ' t do anything with it . There ' s clot of people out there that have that same thought , but that really wasn ' t what that was intended far , originally . P . Board : But they are not farmers either . rOTMANe Yes , most of them are not farmers . They are trying to protect the farmer from himself is Farhat they are trying to do . Anybody else , you got any more questions ? I don ' t know if I a-nz:wexe`d your question or not but at least Verl agrees with me so I can ' t be too far off . Mr . 'Thane ? 'PHANE : No questions . SHELDON My name is Willis Sheldon , 467 Clad St . , Groton , N . Y . The question I have was that if this land ended up getting subdivided , into building lots , then , what are they going to do as far as yogi tell these new people , I need the water system and anything lire that , because yoiAlre getting a whole area out there through Old Stag Road , Lick Street , and that area ; that you ' re getting alot of building on it in less than a five acre track so you are starting to get some condensed housing in there . And when your start getting some more condensed housing then yoi;i start getting more children and more traffic . You know , everything comes Frith that . This is just one subdivision but you know it ' s happened SHELDQNicont ' d ) and it ' s going to happen even more . TOTMAN : It ' s going to happen . THANE : 1I There ' s a problem out there now with traffic as it is . We ' ve got 80 , 000 lb . trucks using those roads that uaren ' t supposed to . It ' s a four ton axle limit road . There has been nothing done by' the police agency on that . We have kids that are , Roger can tell your kids �I that are constantly on people ' s property tearing h stuff up and it can just only `get . worse �A� ith a si.tb - division because yoi;i ' re going ``to have more families , more kids and unless we get something , some other ilk • rrowth in our services e ere c o , �. vzc _ s out there along with it , then I am not in favor of it at all" TOTMAN : Ok , I i;inderstand ztiThat you ' re saying . Let ' s see if I can briefly el.plain to you , what we have to do as a : Planning Board . I don ' t want to make it soi;ind too simplistic . We have rules and regulations ; subdivision rules and regi;ilations , that sa' you have to have a cer - III I� Y tain size lot and that you have so many parcels in III order for if going p '� you ' re oin to gat a road in , if it ' s k II d V either a major or minor subdivI d.ision an there ' s a book of rules that they come in and yoi;l have to buy , like say you have zt acres of land ' and you wanted to sub - divide it i o l come i b �;i - , n the book of rules e Y � Y s that w _ have . If you go by the book of rules , make your plat ,, II say , suggested to us , say , this is ?chat I want to do ; . ii it ' s oir job to see whether it falls within the ruffles l or not , the town laws , and if they do , then we have to - 6 - III i TO 'TMANo ( cont ' d ) accept it as a preliminary plat . Once we ' ve done that , then we hold a public hearing such as this , for a final plat and unless there ' s something major- that comes up or something that we didn ' t pick up on the first time , or something that really made it , sometimes people from the public can pick out things that we might not know of like water runoff or something of that nature that might be detrimental to other peoples property . If nothing like that comes up , we have to look at it as if it meets the Rules & Regulations . If there ' s other. things ; I know what you ' re saying , is that how much can we keep dividing up there without sending public . . . . or police protection or those things but it isn ' t . The Planning Board can ' t control the weight limits that ' s on the trucks ; somebody has to turn those people in , or have the police patrol check it out . I know it ' s a serious problem but we can ' t Took at it as ouir problem . Unless we look at it and say , hey , listen , this area is getting too densely populated , maybe we should change the ordinance ; to slow down growth in there then every - body would have to agree with that . We ' d have to have a Public hearing . Does it make sense like that ? Probably not , but what I am trying to explain is that there ' s certain things we can do as a Planning Board and there ' s certain things we can ' t do . S11EhDON : Yes , but you are also concerned with the long range growth in the area . tOTMANo That ' s right . We have to think , if this keeps happenin , li rO 'IIMAN * ( cont ' d ) if we the people , the citizens come to the . . . . We are doing that here , he ' s holding i:tp a pamphlet . We have contracted with the Tompkins County Claim Dept . and now we have a person we hired a person from the County Claim to work with ias developing a new plan for the Town ; for the whole town looking at what problems they have . Did you get a questionnaire in the mail here ? That ' s what that was all about ; was doing that type of thing . But if yoi:i come in with a plan and it meets the town ' s rules and regulations , if we say you can ' t have that plan , unless we can find where it doesn ' t meet those rules and regulations , I woilld think that you would be quite bitter and say , hey , I ' m going to my attorney , I bought this book and this book tells me what to do and now they tell me I can ' t do it . Does anybody else on the Planning Board want to take a shot at it ? u CHATTERTON I understand his problem . All of us on Old Stage Rd . It ' s a damn good point you brought up . It ' s something I think we ought to think aboilt . I am not sure this is the . . . . to solve the problem . SHEhDON : It may not be , but every time there ' s a siAbdivision , that this adds to the problem before we have a chance , t get a grip on it . I just wanted to make my opinion . TOTMAN : rhat ' s what this meeting is for . - 8 - SHELDON * `there is a problem in that area and I know what I have to say isn ' t going to stop this subdivision brit I just hope the Planning Board does start taking into considera - tion , especially in that area , because it has been sub - divided so much in the last five years . rOTMAN * It is probably as you said earlier , there ' s going to be more of it . Whether the roads are going to handle it or not , of course yort mentioned , the heavy trucks and that sort of thing ; that ' s something that somebody else , if their posted and their still , uh , lots of times if that ' s happening on a regular basis ; if you call the Sheriff ' s Dept . they ' ll put a . . Pl . Bd . : Yeah , it goes in one ear and out the other . SHELDON : I have tried that , in fact , we have had an accident with a tractor trailer on that one corner of Lick and Old. Stage last year . Pl . Bd . : I think this is something our Supervisor should step in on and give us a hand on . TOTMAN : Like I say , these minutes from these meetings are recorded and they are given to the Town Bd members as well . So the things that are brought up here are also observed by the 'Down Board . So , whether it really solves your question or not , at least what you ' re saying is taken into consideration . HALL : Willis may be referring to also , property owners that have gotten tractor trailer units too . Their navigating a; from their property down the roads that are not neces - sarily menat to be run with tractor trailers and there is going to be one or two more. - 9 - SHELDON : 'There is one thing for local delivery ; there ' s no spot in that whole area that has a pick up for delivery . There ' s not a dairy or anything in the area . It ' s just a short cut . . from 222 and making it go around to the top of the hill . It ' s plain and simple a short ci;it . Ple Bdoe Easier to pull . SHELDON * Yes , it ' s less of a. grade ; it ' s more gradual . Pl . Bd.: But the road isn ' t buiilt for that stress . SHELDON : No , it isn ' t . the shoulders definitely aren ' t . If G they got to get off the shoulder for some reason ; if they break down , their right in the lane . C HA'T 'T E FZ 'T 0 N But the Planning Board isn ' t the place for the problem . SHELDON : No , it ' s not . But there are problems that need to be taken care of before that area gets too much bigger . There ' s a big enticement now because the gas line goes through so we ' ll have that utility to use and it ' s going to be condensed Ito a pa.jrt where you ' re going to have water problems as far as firefighters ; fire protection . Somebody may have to put a pond up in that area . HALL : Now are these lots meant for houses or for trailers ? TOTMAN : There ' s no restrictions in the town of Groton whether you put a house or trailer on ; the only restrictions that are made in those particular cases is by the landowner requesting a silbdivision and there ' s a gi;Iesti n i on the application that asks that question and here is answer to that question . . . . . - 10 - HALL : I thought just looking at the stakes where they are that , they are pretty small for houses . TOTMAN : The house area has to be at least 1400 sq- . ft . 'That ' s larger than most . 1400 sq . ft . It can ' t be any smaller than 1400 sq . ft . Pl . , Bd . : Is that the size of a doublewide ? Is that the way you want to leave it ? If GLEASON * Yes . Actually in the blueprints . . . TOTMAN : Roger put it in there , I think , mainly was to protect the sale of the other lots . If you got five lots for If sale and you sell one and you put a $ 20 , 000 or 130 , 000 home on it ; rather it be a small shack that someone builds or a new mobile home or whatever ; in the other three lots , if somebody was going to look at and divide and put a $ 100 - 150 , 000 house , it might not sell because of the house that was built originally only cost $ 25 , 000 to $ 30 , 000 . It ' s Real Estate people tell you , that , that ' s not a good land investment . So , that ' s why Roger put that working number in there . I ' ll show you what it says right here . It says , " Fioi;lse area has got to be at least 1400 sq . ft �i Any other questions ? Pl . Bd . : That ' s the only restriction they have in there Roger ? ( Talking ) HALL : According to map , these are the same depth ? According to looking at the stakes , the other day , when I was if out there in the field , it looks like they were off at an angle . Not much of an angle , are they all the same If - 11 - HALL, ( cont ' d ) size ? Ul . 13d . : Yea , they are all the same size . What you ' re seeing here is , I don ' t know , there ' s supposed to be a right of way in here . What it shows is Stage Road runs to the northwest , and that will show everything gray out of wack when you look at it . The lot lines are right angles to Lick St . which extends to the north side ? HALL : Does the one next to the road front bray up higher than the one way down in the . . . . . 'PO 'PMAN : Phey suirvey those as they go along with the road . You people who just came in , I assume you ' re here for the same reason . Do you have any questions ? SHERRY MURRAY We are just trying to get information . DALE MURRAY : Roger helped us out a great deal , when we put our place in , we just wanted to see how it went . TOTMAN : We have gone over most of it , we could back up and ask some questions if you want to . We started at 8 : 00 . MACCOU : My name is Alberto Maccou . I live . on 8 `? 6 Lick Street . In regards to the 1400 sq . ft . of house . It ' s a pretty big size house . I think in regards to , I mean to have something of that nature in there , I think it would be better if Tire put a value , of a type of houses that are going to go in there instead of size . A smaller house , less than 14-- 00 sq. . ft . can actually be looking better than a 2000 . So * , I think that in that area ; I am speaking mainly because , I am interested in a lot . - 12 - MACCOU : ( cont ' d ) I question , a 1400 so . ft . is a very big horse , it would not bring in basically ; it would have problems in the market area . So I think . . . . TOTMAN : Bear in mind , in the regulations for the town of Groton as long as any restriction that the landowner puts on above that 840 sqe ft . , , we don ' t have any control . We have to mare sure it is at least 840 sc . ft . MACCOU : So , if I can go and buy a house of 1200 , then I won ' t have any problem ? TOTMAN : No , no . What I ' m saying is , the landowner is the owner that sells the property . Ile can say it has . to be a $ 30 , 000 home or he can say it has to be a $ 100 , 000 home . Or if he wants to use a square footage , he can d that . Normally the object is for doing that is to keep the valrie of the land up so that the other properties will sell for more money ; but that is strictly up to the landowner selling the land . We can ' t tell him what he can do with the land . P1 . Bd . : The landowner can go over the ninuimum , we ' re concerned about the minimum . But the seller can go over . GLEASON : The reason I went . . . I had had dollar amounts previously back when we said $ 60 , 000 back eight ( 8 ) years ago . $ 60f000 today isn ' t mulch of a house , so that ' s why I went to a square footage . r MACCOU : So , my question now would be , what kind of problem will somebody coming- into bury a house to build a smaller house than that ? Will they have any problem with or from the Planning Board ? - 12 -� TOTMAN : Let me pint it this way , let ' s see if I can answer your question . Tell me if I didn ' t OK ? If this plan passes the way it ' s presented to us and somebody If comes in and bilys all three lots off of the seller , he convinces the seller that now I bought all three , now , bear in mind , the seller night have other land he wants to sell around there ; so he has to protect his other land . the buyer of the first three lots can convince the seller that maybe 1200 sre ft . would be if If just as good resell valiAe of land as 14100 sq . ft . That is only between the seller and the buyer ; the only Y person who can change a deed restriction is the guy that put on the first place . Otherwise - it lasts for 25 years before it runs oust ; and if he ' s still alive if in another 25 years , he can maintain the estate . . . . that ' s the way I understand the law . Now. if the seller If agrees to the new buyer that maybe it ' s too restricted ; then they have to come back to a new Planning Board and the Planning Board passed it , and told everybody that this is where it was and all they would have to do is come back to the Planning Board and say to them that I am the seller of the land and I agree to ci;it it down 100 or 200 whatever it is sq . ft . and the Planning Bd . can agree to it or not agree to it . As I understand it ; it ' s strictly up to the seller . CHA'PTER 'PON 9 If you bought a lot , and I bought a lot . I put i:ip a 1400 sq . ft . hoi;ise , deed research was in there . If you went to Roger and said well , I am going to put up . � - 13 - CHATTERTON ( cont ' d ) a 1300 sq . ft I bought the lot with the deed restriction in there , you can ' t put up less than 1400 . TOTMAN : That ' s right . See what I was saying to David is if one person bought all three lots and he went to . . . with all three lots ; once they sell one lot . . . . GLEASON * It ' s my understanding that we have a 1400 going in . Pl . 13c. . : So then , this gentleman is not bi;iying all three lots ? GLEASON * No . ro ,rMAN : So , any other questions ? HALL : So , in other words , you' re saying no to trailers going in there as long as they are 1400 sq . ft . . ro ,rMAN * No , no . He ' s not saying no to trailers . It depends on how big of a trailer . HALL : Well , say doublewide ? TOTMAN : Tf you can get one 1400 sq . ft . ; there ' s nothing saying in here that a doublewide can ' t go in . Do any of the . Planning Board m( mbers have any questions . In light of what we have looked at or talked about tonight ? Just to refresh everyone ' s memory , Roger had it surveyed but the survey came back without showing the 60 foot right of way . He just got it in the mail today . So I told him keep the survey until we can Ito over it again . If we pass it or reject it tonight ; i we pass it , it won ' t become effective until he presents the survey showing the 60 foot right of gray . VAN SLYKEe. On this right of bray , there seemed to have been a question the last time you were in , of where that was going to occur , where it was going to occuir between - 14 - VANSLYKE ( cont ' d ) two of the lots as in the preliminary drawing . So there would be one lot next to Murray and one lot G next to hire and then +- re right of way ; and then there would be three lots in secession ? TOTMAN : That ' s the way it had to be ; that ' s what we approved as a preliminary point . CHA'r `PER 'PON : I ' ll make a motion that we approve the major subdivisioll as presented in the preliminary sketch subject to the corrected survey which Roger Gleason will present . ro ,rMAN : Any other questions ? `PWIGG : Second . ALL IN FAVOR I , SANDRA D . DILLON , DO CERTIFY that at the Public Hearing in the matter of a Major Subdivision 1 proposed by Roger Gleason , west of Lick St . and north of Old Stage Rd . known as Morton Farmlands , town of Groton , Pax Map No . 121 - 1 - 2. 1 . 2 held on Thursday , July 2 , 1992 , did take the minutes of sa d hearing and the foregoing as a true and exact copy of said hearing to the best of my ability . r Sandra D . Dillon era �..��7w �Y , _- - - - Lf67__ G/dr � ST � �rU7t'jf