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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1990-09-20 t lOWJ1�J C.iF= Glry: OTOhJ PLANNING BOARD Thursday , September 20 , 19909n f3 ; OCD Pa Mn BOARD PUBLIC PRESENT * George Tot (nan , Chairman Gary Wood , Code Enforcement Offic. er- � Ceci l Twi ,gg Roger- Gleason , Old Stage Rd * Ver l Rank:"i n i �Moni. ca Carey i *David Chatterton - George VanSl yF. e .6.Shel don Clark r * present ? G . Totmars , Chairman , opened the Planning Board meeting at j 8 : 12 p . m . Approval of the August , 1990 minutes was tabled Until the October meeting to allows the Board members time to read them . Proposed Amendments to the Mobile Home Law G . MOOD : I have Come Up with a problem and that :i s in the last two weeksI have gotten a rt .( :L i ng fromthe town attorney . This is the Mobile Home Law and it says. under- " Definition of Mobile !-come - . . . minimum si zve of a mobile home not in a mobile home parF:- shall. be 12.x7Cs or 14 >; 60 with a minimum area of e40 square feet . " The way this has Z.k1w Sys been enforced is a " r(si ni mt.ur; area of 840 square feet . " Pr' ett `Y much ignoring those two dimension's . Double wades .For exa (nple , I have issued a lot: of permits for- dnUbl e wi des . G . TOTMAN." Double wide: have f340 square feet. . G . WOODe + hey are not 1 :t 7 ( } or 14 >; 6( > and -this is what he has said . He hal.5 said it must. meet both of those criteria . It must be either 1 ? >17 () I or 14x6r) and it must be at least 840 square feet . In other words he 1s � saying there i s osa :L y two si -ees of mobile homes allowed in the town . G . TOTMAN & Let me exj-.) Lain to the:: Board what I think I know YOU are talk: i. ng about . Correct me if I ' m wrong . As I understand it the problem that Gary is bringing up here . There is a residence in the Town of Groton that has been there for quite some time and it i in a mobile home and thleyo have ass acid on q the add on makes the residential area more than 84r? sgUare f eet . Th i s persons that is living in that mobile home has to move and he wants to (hove it to another spot within the Towns of Groton so he applied -for- a permit to do so . He is sort of grandfathered where he is :Living . Hey is saying " it is alright for me -to live here , I woatld like to pick: it up and place it on anot. hser pi. ec:: e of land in the same town . " Our ordinance , and the intent of the ordinance ., and I cj (..tess I am here to say I will argt_te With anybody in here that: they lennw more � about the intent of this ordinance than I do or the gU %/ that is walking into the door , the intent of the ordinance was to F--: eep small trailers from coming into ot_tr- town „ It was not: to harass the people who live here . ' HerE :!. ac e "w(' wherea (»E ! l ;l "Y < i \/ (�" been 'Living in a trailer , bothering nobody , wi t4; no complaints. from nobody that I know of and he just wants to pick it t_tp I Page - 1 1 TOWN OF GROTON PI ANN I NG ' BOARD Thursday , September 210 , 1990n 8 X) P . t'I . BOARD PUBLIC ...PRESENT * George Totman , Otic-, i rman Garry Wood , Cade Enf orc (:-ement Of f i c. er- *Cec i. 1. Twi gg Roger- Gleason ., Old Stage Rd -);- Ver- :l I~ar•i k: i n *Monica Carey * David Ch :,stterton i Px- George VanSl yke -A-Sheldon Clark ( *present ) G . Tatman , Chairman , opened the Planning Board meeting at 9 "0 12 p . m . Approval of the August. , 1990 minutes was tabled until the October meeting to allow the Board members -time to read them . Proposed Amendments to the Mobile Home Law G . WOOD : I have come up with a problem and that is; in the last two weeks I have gotter•i :a rU .l i ng from -the -town attorney . This is the Mobile Home Law and it says )Under- " Definition of Mobile biome - . . . mi ni murrs sit Zve Of mobile home not in a mobile home part..-: shall be 12 ,: 7tii or 14 ;: 6C) with a fflirlimum area of 840 square fec.gt . " The way this Has always been enforced is a " minimum area of 840 square. feet . " Pretty mur_ I-i i an or i. ng those two dimensions . Double w,sides for example , I have issued a Iot of permits for cicaub :l e wi des . G . TOTMAN : Double wi des have 840 square feet. . G . WOOD : They are not 1 ' x 70 or 14x6>> and this is what he has saido Fie ha <.= said it must meet both of those criteria , It must- be either 1 70 or- 14 ;( 60 and it must be at least F340 sq (_ca :� e feet , In other- words hie is saying there is only two si Zes of mobile homes allowed in the town . G . TOTMAN : Let nee e %: plairs to the Efoar- d whet I think I know you ,are talking about . Correct me if I ' m wrong . As I understand it the problem that Gary is bringing up here . There is a residence in the Town of Groton that has been there for clui tie some time and it it-, in a mobile home and -they have an acid ona the add on makes the residential. area more than 840 square feet. . TI-ii s person that :is living in that mobile home has to move and he wants to move i. t to another spot within the Town of Gi oton set he applied for a permit to do so . He is sort of grandfathered where he is living . He is =:• ayiI " it is alright for me to live here , I would like to pick it up and place it: on another piece of :l acid in -the <sa (Ti e t. owri . " Our ordinance , and the intent of the ordinance , and I guess I am her• (- to say I will argue with anybody in here that they knows more about the inter-it of tt..ii s ordinance than I do or the guy that i s w a I l:: i ng into the door , the intent of the ordinance was to keep :_:mall trailers from coming into our town . It was not to i-iar- ass the people wshio live here . ' Here is a case where a guy I••iave been 1 i ••,r :i. ng in a trait .l er , bot. I ter i ng nobody , with no c. orrspl. aints -from nobody that I knows of and he just want _=, to pick it up Page - 1 TOWN 0 F UC~; 0 'TCtI' 1 PL_ lyNN .l' NC3 BOARD September . .O. 1. 99(a) and move i t . He says " this is my home „ I am ot cay here ,, you say I am legal and `t want to move it to another place " and all of a rudders he has all 1< i nds of problems- and he can ' t do i t . I really believe that. I don ' t agree with -the town attorney ' s interpretation of that rule . C . TWIGG : When we went through that ordinance we said they had to have E340 sgL.sar- e feet . The reason we said that was because these trailers met that r_� r itc-ria „ N� sf: if tisc� y c_ o `slci gt.st an add on 1 o rrtabe t.sy� the difference i f the trailer wasn ' t big enough . G . TOTMANe That was the :intent ., C . TWIGG : That was mentioned that :if they put the add - on on -the trailer -that would be included in the E34r=i square feet . G . WOOD : Let Me mRke two or three points . Number one the case George ci ted i s :i n fact the case , that brought tlsi s about however the change I want you to propose is generic in nature . It does not address this particular 45 :i •tLAati or7 . Seccsrscll y „ it. has been the practice in t. l •ie t:: ;_swn to enforce this 9410"i square mobile home size requirement as- being r- egUi red that: it be part of the manufactured home , contrary to what Cecil just said . I personally don ' t: agr (-� e with that but that is what. I have been doing . The third item i s be careful , I arcs •tal f. :i s sg about the Mobile Home Ordinance not the Land Use Ordinance which is where the 840 square feet is you are referring to , Cecil . V . RANKIN .P I supposed that if you had as small trailer when this ordi nano:-. e was written , the grand + c-at. her clause , it strayed there ; but if you wanted to move it you couldn ' t move i t . He couldn ' t do anything with it i. f he wanted to move he . He could build onto it while it was there and then . . . yot.s were a little late the other night , Monica and I were there and I didn ' t get a chance to . . . G . WOOD : On the contrary it was discussed , I think , after I left . V . RANKIW I was l ick: ed there , then when I got home and I got to think:ring about i. t. , wc, ll they ought to !•:: now better , I shs_st up becas-a =_!. e Guic-Jo and the rest said -the attorney says if you want to bring a small trailer in and then .build onto it to mat; c; the legal square footage you can do it . That is wrong aw• far- as I am concerned . That trailer 1. er tia5i to be brouc} tst: i n l ec3al and then whatever you want to build onto it ol:: ay . G . WOODe That is not what Cec i 1 said , number one and number two the Mobile Home Ordinance as: it is today is not explicit in that direction ,. It saayss , " -the ma. rli mc.sm !Bi e of a mobile dome not in a mobile home park shall be . . . " and one of the things I am going to propose to you is we clean up -that ambiguity as well . V . RANKIN : another thing , Gary , when they come and ask for a permit then you have to okay a permit and if they don ' t have the right footage then You can kick it out ., i i Wage - TOWN OF t3F�: C!'TCJf~# PLANNING L+ C] f+ : D CeL� trrrnber �: iq 1. ��? 90 G . WOOD . Tlic( t. ' 5 right , L can . The (arob ]. eiTi thatI got. isthat youdid not hear , I have to message from ,Iar_k F' it. ::Ygera 'lc( that stays mobile 1-iomes (TolUEt meet two criteria , they must be one of these two si. es :L � :: 70 or ] 4—%. b0 and they must be e40 square feet . Therefore , any home that is not 12 .e7r) or cannot be allowed into this gown . I would like to remove th-Eat frorTi the ordinance . C . TWIGG : What if they have to bigger trailer ? Then they can ' t do -that . ' G . WOOD . Right t::•cnd (-ioaa man , perrrii t � for double Uli dew have I issued in -the 'Last ten years . Here is what I woUl d l i b:: e to propose to you that the definitions be changed as follows . " A transportable ., in one or more sections ,ons , single family dwelling unit which is built on a permanent chassis and designed to be used as a dwelling unit , with or without a permanent foundation " now that wording cares essentially out of the New York: State Building Code . Then I go on t: o s. ay , " when conne' (: ted to the required utilities ., and which includes the plumbing , tieating , air conditioning and electrical systems contained t. herein . " The next thing I would add still in the definition „ " A mobile home is manufactured in accordance with the standards of the U . S . Dept . of Ho (_is> i ng arid Urt:ian Development as contained in Fart 3280 of 224 CFR , Chapter AI• . " Now the importance of that: -to me is it makesi the difference between the definition of t_( RiodUl ar home and mobile home . A mobile home is iria ►ll..Jactured to the Federal code . D . CHATTERTON : We are not: talking about <a modular home ? G . WOOD : No , I aim tal b--: i rig about a mobile home that is built to Federal standards:: . Then going on , " A mobile home must contain the number- of s. gUare feet of living space as required by Section 325 of the Land Use sr_i -that vie don ' t (-save ever- a chance of a difference between this law and the Land Use Law . You. change the Land Use Law some day then this law c.joes with it . There I am going on to say , " within the nominal dimensions of the mani_ifactured unit without consi deri. ng any basement , attachments c: on <_ArUC -t( d can site or- ot. her- appur- ten ance <.es . Now YOU ini ght want to change that and I have no problems with that . If you say they can get their e41') square feet: any way they please , that ' s fine , I don ' t care but I just wanted to 'get it in� there one way or the other . So I am not getting any more garbage about how I am interpreting this law . While I have the initiative a little bit , Article 15 . 7 , Article 15 of this law refers to mobile homes not in a mobile Dome park: . C . TWIGG : This :is then State code "." Be WOOD : No , this is the Town of Groton ' s Mobile Home Law . Not the Land Use Law b (_it. •t:. hr•.:a Mobile Home L... aw . '11••ie whole of Article 15 refers to mobile hornets not in a mobile home par- 6c . Article 15 . 7 says „ " Ur_ ci .tpanr_ y Certificates shall be reviewed at least every three years and renewed automatic: ally if there are not violations of the provisions (af this local I aw . If Arid I got to tel '1 YOU , that ai. n ' •t. been . Page TOWN OF: GROTON PLANNING BOARD September 20 , 199C' G . TOTMAN : I thin !-: , I don ' t know if Roger remembers or not „ but I think: -this is one of those things , very honestly , -that got into the ordinance . . . you guys remember we worked on this ordinance for a year or so and then we gave :it: to the Town Board and a year :later they passed it . By the time all that time goes by YOU don ' t read all the way back through and widen was were wor• l:: ing on these laws. was had someone taking notes and when they came back in printed form they were printed in the form of whoever printed it up = aw fit to do it . It was ver•• y difficult to coo through this. whole big bible and pickOut the things in there was didn ' t: put in there our ssel ves . I very personally feel this 15 . 7 got put in there that way . Fi. rst of all I think- it is unconsti. tut. ional because the intent of the ordinance right from day one was to classify a mobile home as a residence . That:. was OUr- i nt•. ent .. We had a lot of problems i. n the early years because was differentiated mobile homes and <.=sick: houses and even put a moratorium � on it until was could straighten this thing out . It was decided back then vie had certain criteria for the size of buildings , l i 1•:: e the 840 square f e e t . The intent was. not to have little shanty towns cropping ►_► p around -the Town of Grot. c:jn . i D . CHATTERTON : The certificate addressee; that there is not more than one on a lot , f (.) r- example ? G . TOTMAN : That it meets the State codes . G . WOOD : No , because the State codes did not exist at that time . What it really <� (Jdress , all these things in Article 15 , which is lot size , location of -fuel tank: , the shirting , on and on and on . It is a whole host of things . What:. I think: what you may have been attempting was that mobile !-come parks be inspected every three year:, and a certificate issued for them . That is being done and that is provided somewhere else . G . TOTMAN : What I am saying , Gary , is I agree with you . This shoal. dri p t.: be in there . It:. wasn ' t intended to be there . It is uncontrollable . D . CHATTERTON : What_ is wrong with it being there ? C . TWIGG : ]Fec-. a ►_► se you have to enforce it if it is there . i G . TOTMAN : You build at 84 ) <.wc} ►_► are foot house , okay ? D . CHATTERTON : Well , C : ec' i l , s point , if that a •t is the case does it have: -to be enforced ? Does; Gary have to l ool:: at it ? In other words if the inspection is not done , it is wai ved q but if you ' ve got . . . G . TOTMAN : What I am saying is , if you build an 840 square foot. house < :u, d you :live in it , you don ' t have to have it inspected . But if you take ari 840 sgUare foot mobile home this says now was have to inspect then, . That is discrimination against that•. -type of housing . We don ' t have that and we didn ' t intend •that . G . WOOD : That is my feeling . The point: I wanted to mal--.- e to you is there is elsewhere provisions for inspecting mobile home parks every three years which is good , which is done and is appropriate ,, I 1=' age - 4 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September �. t? , 1990 C . TWIGG : That is the park: :in general not each mobile home " G . WOOD : Yes , the park- . Here it. is Article 4 . 1 " it shall ber unlawful for any per- son to construct , maintain and operate a mobile home park:: in the Town of Groton unless; this person shall obtain a c_ onStr- L.tction permit „ an oj:. crt..tpancy : certificate , whichever is required . Such certificate shall be renewed every three years beginning with the initial date of issuance . , , G . TOTMAN : Some towns have it every year „ C . TWIGG : What. do you i nspec 't , the sewage systems ':' G . WOOD : That is a county thing . We inspect it primarily for cleanliness , upi•:: eep , appearance , feel tank:: s secured , etc . C . TWIGG : Which would be more important in a mobile home }-.park: than on individual. lots . � G . TOTMAN I find , Gary , when you are talking about'. certificate of occupancies a lot of kaeraple wonder " what ' s that . " If they have never been j involved with them , I know a lot of people when you tal. le about things I i k: e that. ask: " what ' s a CO "" ' It ' s a Certificate of Oc: cuk:; ancy . In today ' s standards when you build a house you are riot. suppose to move into it without the Certificate of Occupancy . You have 'to have them to get the final draw from the bank:: . Once you have that Certificate of Occupancy and once you move into it , unless you do any major chrangecs -that are noticeable or someone turns YOU in for it !, your- home is your castle and the inspector is not allowed to go into it. anyway . G . WOOD : I hiave one more to propose to you . The last one is maybe of more interest: -to mej than to any of 'yfou . This is whrat I lsave done , in the definitions we have: a Construction Permit 'to construct a rmobi. l. c. Home park; . Then it goes on to say , " a written permit issued by th4-.n 'Town of Groton . . . " you sece Where I have written in " Building hermit " . What I want to do :is define a building permit in addition to a construction permit that has to do with constructing a mobile home park:: is have a building permit which is a , " written permit issued by the town which anti-Pori aes the preparation of ari :indivi. duail rnc ) bil. f.-� home site when the 1-tic--kn for said construction is in compliance with -the provisions and a building permit is also required for the installation of a mobile home in an approved mobile hiome part:` . " This is in fact the way we have been operating . I i D . CHATTERTON : Every time a mobile dome is put into a park: they have to get a permit to do that '"' � G . WOOD : Yes'> . The reason for that. is the State Building Code has evspIicit standards and requirements for a mobile biome so a replacement mobile home must have a building permit ., That is in fact the way it has been handle. d . G . TOTMAN : Mobile homes are built thrOUghout 'the United States and the codes are different for d i f f Brent. areas of the United States . 1_ i 1-: e if :a mobile dome is built for Florida then it is not legal to put it in New York: State . They don ' t meet the snow lra �td standards and things like that . So �� i Page -- 5 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September 20 , 199L"i IOt of time if you don ' t have this and people who have a park . . . a lot of the par- l•-: owners- appr- eciate this because •t.: !-ley can stop crummy •f rom coming in because they say you have to get a building permit . G . WOOD : In >t..cmmary all of -these I think: :in pr- etty Much technical clean up with the exception of how you measure the 840 Square feet . That is Something you can decide how you want that handled . C . TWIGG : You have been the Zoning Enforcement Officer for a while , do YOU see a pr- oblem with, 'these add - ons "" G . WOOD : Yes , I do , they tend to be riot too well done . However ,, one Car, ar clue . Y . C . TWIGG : That ' s why I was wonder- i ng , if we put clown , if -. here was some criteria for- the <:xcic4 - on So that it. :isn ' t iu <.at a rEeh <_icl%a It has to blend in with the rest of the bui. l di nq or it has to be on a foundation , this sort of tl•iing . Because you take one of these mobile homes with 840 � sc; c..tare -feet , there ar- e two bathrooms , three bedrooms , living room and a cli. ni ng acid kitchen area , now what does one elderly person need with two bathrooms and three bedr- ooms ? i G . TOTMAN : Cecil , I think you ar- e getting into something different th4 zit is going to be coming down the p :i {:: e pretty soon . C . TWIGG : But they might like to have a wood shed or a place to store the Iawn mowers arid this sort of thing . G . WOOD : That is not a problem for me because an accessory Strc.ictur- c:- we car, handle . C . TWIGG . They have -to have something because they don 't I-lave a c: el. Iar . G . TOTMAN : I earl ' t sit here a l 1 night acid agree with, Gary , that makes me nerve us ; so let me disagree with Gary for a minute . j As I look at things , how can you meet the public when you can dive a building per- mit: for a r- egul �:cr• dwelling unit fen - an addition bt..ct You can ' t: for a trailer . Now that to me is discrimination . When the Same appI i. cation , the same per- mi t gets the Same scrutiny f r- r-ifn the bL.ci 1 di rig inspector for- ei thei• place . I would think . . . y 0 U Can ' t do far- a tie- ai l er- but where I real 1 y feel we Should have in hier- e and I think: Gary is on the right t: r- ac : k ks the ini -tial one has -to be a package within it. i •elf . The new one corm. rig i n has to . . . YOU can buy a tr- ai 1 er with a F; r- of essi anal built - in add - on with it . That: is part , as far- as I am concerned , of the initial tr- ai 1 c:O.? r•• . For- c.:sofnet:. h•i :i. rig cofni ng into the l" own of t.r� oton , -that trailer itself � without having a lot of wood slabs to build an add - on , is the unit . if they want to add on later.. they get a building per- mi t arid meet the cr- i •teroi a . � But: , the riew oc; e c. orrsi rig in has to meet: the 84r) square feet and that was the � i. nt: erit of t1-ie or- dinance . Maybe Mr- . Fitzgerald . . . I think: he is wrong . I-t Was not the intent and we haven ' t been operating that: way and I don ' t t4-iink we should CIO it. for one person . I i Page - 6 I i I TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September '? 0 IQ9 %. U . FtANk: IN . , lira s: rii. c! jc_c <_> t what it. said here . `>' ou can put a trailer in here if it don ' t meet it then add on to it . That ' s not right . G . TOTMAN . Technically , that is 4Stiat I just said , that ' s not right . You are talking about. -: wo different t. hi ng <_=.s . Gary is- talking about rewriting the ord i riance . What brought this thing on is a completely separate case by itself . Its a mobile !-iome ti ..jat: was here ., the guy is living in it and he just wants to take it off this. piece of land and put it on this pierce c_If land . G . WOOD . I want yoc_c to understand very , � � c�r �r clearly the one thing I rier_ac:i , T. really need desperately :is t. ca remove that 12 >. / 0 and 14 :% 60 . C . TWIGG . Now that was not suppose- to be in there . ' That was not our :intent because we were taking out all discrimination . G . TOTMAN . He is not talking about the same one you are . He is talking about the trailer law . C . TWIGG . Even the Mobile Home Ordinance we tool.-.- out everything that was different because vie coc.cl dn ' t. treat the mobile homers separate , that was the reason for doing i t . That aaa = the intent and to leave something like that in . G . TOTMAN . To be honest: I was sorry I couldn ' t mak c..? that meeting the j other night and I would like to compliment Uerl and Monica for showing c_tp to the meeting that night . I told thesti I had business that night , my livelihood takes me that night and I can ' t mak: e :i t . But what bothers me more than anything else is they did not crime to the Planning Board and ask us what -the intent was , what ' s it Here `? why ' s it here' what is the . . . yoe_c have people on this Board who have spent many , man -%/ hours working on this- -thing . If they are going to go c-ir1 t: he intent of something they shouldn ' t go to somebody else outside of our town . They should go to somebody who has s::. {::ient. many I; c_rurs and many years on the thing and if they don ' t like what they are doing then they should tell them to get cif f the Board rather mee •t:. i rig whert they ter e riot. around acid riot asi.-A ng them their opinion . I feel very strongly abraut that . We are a volunteer board and vie have awe ,Eiome iitriOU11t of power bes •t. owed upon i..is by the hate l:ac_ct when t. tiey !'ia 'de' an individual case come i_cp they don t even ask, you about i t . That is riot rigi .it . I Beside from -that , Gary has a problem bud:. it is, not. going -to help the problem that brought th i =_:; to light " U . RANKIN : What: is the problem ? G . WOOD . Let ' s put: the problem that brought this to light aside bec: aur: e we are really riot addressing that at all here . I am arr- !•; i ng you -to clean up the ordinance . Tlie thing that I have written here and asZ. % you to conrsi der is , " it !-hall r_: ontai n the number of square f erat required by the � . oni ng law contained within -the nominal dimensions of the manufactured l_i n i t . G . TOTMAN . *That ' s for something corm nca in new , now , that has -to be :i n there . padre -- ;, i TOWP%1 OF GROTC] N PLANNING BOARD September 199 :=3 G . WOOD : I don ' t think: so „ George . G . TOTMAN : You aren ' t going to go around with what is 'there now and make t: h"tern move what they got . It is only for new Stuff coming in and applying -for a bt..tilding permit . D . CHATTERTON : This will apply after the law is enacted . C . TWIGG : This will also apply to -this fellow who Wants to move his . He has an add - on -that he built 1-ti mr:el. f so he Couldn ' t move: that . He ' s alright where he ' s at but if he puts_. it on a new lot . . . he can ' t move it then . G . TOTMAN : Suppose he has been there for twenty years and he ' s happy but he has been renting his land and the guy sold the land so he has to move to another lot ne?ct door ? C . TWIGG : Th-tat would come under hardship ? G . WOOD9 That may bet and that ' s for the Zoning Board of Appeals to address . Again I would really like to l :: eep the specific case out of this . C . TWIGG : But it gives us some reason -for- changing or gives us some ssi g h t s on what problems might Cottle c"tr:t t:. h'tat: woi.cl d fit: the s., i t: c.iat:. i ori . With this sl. t_ t_iat: l. ci {"3 „ aae ciciri ' t k: n (.iw the names or C- nythincl ., but this type of a Si 'tUat. ion 1 '.=i wI"tat': tae want. -to avoid . D . CHATTERTON : Cecil , what we are talking about , we have to decide here whether or riot vie are going to make this required square foot inclusive of the unit itself or whether vie are going to allow home --built add - ons 'to apply as I see it . If we the Planning Board decade that we will allow add - on Units the included and required then this individual may qualify . If we decide that we are not going to allow add - ons then he won ' t . But I agree with Gary , I think: aae have to address the question here , forget about the i ndi vi. duE., l and let him let the chips fall as far as he is concerned whatever we decide on this; . G . TOTMAN : YC.) U got '('_ 0 1 ook; Ed'. the implications . C . TWI66 . That i E- why I asked Gary why . . . has he run into problems . Now addl or'is , I I.--- now some add - ons are junk; . Now if the Zoning enforcement officer had some teeth in that so that t this add - on had to be ors gcsoci f oundat i. on and it had to blend in with the e :-: i. st i ng strt-tr- ture . . . D . CHATTERTON : Yt:] t..t ' r' e talking about ascetics now . . C . TWIGG : Yeah , in other words you couldn ' t have aluminum siding trailer and then the guy come along and put slab -board shanty on the side of that . G . TOTMAN : You are getting out of what he has the power to do noai . He sloes not have the power to do that , D . CHATTERTON : Beac.cty is in the eye of the beholder . 11 Page "- 8 TOWN OF GROTON !=' L-. Ah NING E40ARD September 20 , 1990 G . TOTMAN : I don ' t think-: you should give ascetics to the zoning officer . G . WOOD : I agree . I war- -ted to maket the point that YOU dictate.e. what I do . G . TOTMAN : L_et me review the case as I see i t . I no back:: to my modular home or my 840 square foot home . It meets the codes , I get: my COS the building inspector says it meets all the building codes and I am fine . Next year I want: -to add a , roorrt c::n•: . :l d (:) n ' t have to ch; E? ck: with him for -the color of paint or things like that . I have to meet: the; State building code to get -the permit and the CO for the room that I added on . In our regular zoning ordinance we make reference to a trailer as a dwelling unit . A clwel. 1. i ng unit that comes into our Town that meets, the 040 sgt..tare •foot di men sion . Do we want to say ., now and I don ' t think: we: do , because you c:cre living in a trailer , not_ a modular home or conventional home , but because you .live: in a tr- ai. t er YOU can ' t. build -that extra, living room on l i k:: e the other guy r_ an because it is a mobile home . Th•► at is what we want to stay awaa rom . V . RANKIN : If the original trailer meets the square footage requirement then there isn ' t any problem . G . TOTMANo I don ' t th•► i nk: YOU c_ ot.al. d win in court if you start c4it-sc: riminating like that . I t4-, inl:: you would get beat . i Co TWIGGa That ' s why Urn not tor-? sur ez , if this gt..t •{ has a trailer and i he has an add on built on it , now , and he is moving the trai t er and the add -- on and the whole business to another- lot and he is legal where he is , I almost think t. h•tat is part of that trailer now isn ' t it '? D . CHATTERTON : It i. s only legal because it i. s grandf athered . G . TOTMAN : He (night not: be grandf athered , David . Maybe the original trailer was grandfathered . Maybe he put the addition on afterward because he could have gotten a building permit to put the addition on . Maybe he di dr t , but that is -thee ca <_se it could ' ve ht.apperied . C . TWIGG : The way was have been doing i. t that would make him legal ,, accor•• di r•ig -to this he is not: legal. . D . CHATTERTON : Getting b <_ac: k% to this individual case here ., this is a mobile h•tome itself wi t. hot_tt_ the addition legal ? G . WOOD : No . D . CHATTERTONe So he is not. legal where he is if we indeed do not allow add - ons to be included . i G . WOOD : Put on the other hand iin a situation 1 i. k:: e this he can go to -the Zoning Board of Appeals and say, " I have an existing trailer , its been my home for wear this is a hardship . " " f Page - 9 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September 210 ., 1990 G . TOTMAN : Di. d I ; e get the opportunity ty to do that ? Did he get turned down by the ;coning Officer or did he get turned down before that point ? G . WOOD : Now you are bringing a new mobile home into the town . . . Co TWIGG : You didn ' t: answer the question . G . WOOD : I ' m sorry " I thought i. t was rhetorical . C . TWIGG : Did you turn the guy down or did :it get turned down before it got to you ? G . WOOD : I turned him down . If you want to know the whole history of ghat situation , very briefly . I wrote him back a 1 etter and I said there are two things that he would have -to meet and I am putting your- building permit on hold until You show me how you are going to meet them . He called me and asked me tca come out and look: at the situation and I did and I determined in my mind that the situation waS Sur_ h that it would be hard to defend turning him down and I was prepared to issue him a permit . D . CHATTERTON : Why would it be hard to turn him clown ? G . WOOM If his living accommodations are legal in thi. s part of the Town how can I say they are not. legal in this part of Town without clarification ,, in any case ., He is living here and has a dwelling unit of whatever l:: ind that is satisfactory and he wzints to move it. over Here . . . D . CHATTERTONe Gary , if we enact this and it ' s the unit: itself that Has to meet the square footage rec} ui. remc= nts and i••; e doesn ' t. and You have a Case where somebody doesn ' t and they want to move thorn you would have to say no . G . WOOD : Yesq I would . There is another thing you can pull into your thinl:: ing . The State Building Code now says that any mobile home has to have a certificate showing i. t meets proper standards which; came into affect i n 1976 . That code now mak.- es a mobile Home manufactured before 1976 virtually worthless ,. No zoning officer can approve it . You are saying the same thing . You are saying to a person Your home does not meet there cri ter i .. D . CHATTERTON : I don ' t k. rsow if it is the same or not , Gary . I think t. hat as far- as moving it and not meeting that code would be one thing , but riot meeting the standards . G . TOTMAN : That other thing is out of our hands vie are riot. the Zoning Board of Appeals . We make recommends to them in the form of the zoning ordinance . The point has been well. taken and move s .ts on to what Gary is ask: i ng for . I think- we can tale what (3ar y has in mind and he can leave arid we can worl:: on this . The proposed Zoning changes in t: lie whole complete - oni ng ordinance that: Cary and I ., Mr._inicaq Cecil arid Verl worked on , it is a package about an inch E and one - half thi r-sl; and was given to •t. l-ie Town Board I believe in April. of ' 89 . There was a public hearing on it Monday night , h'loni c i;.i arid Verl. at. terided :it , I. could rich. . The Town Board I •iel d tl-ie puL-il a. c�. (-sear i rig � after the_ public hearing they c-� grc:: ed to it with some Page I0 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September ? Cr , 1990 clarification to punctuation marl.. and purge numbers and kliingS like that . As Soon as they were taken care of it was being forwarded to Albany and after- its 30 days in AI. bany , I think it is , then it becomes an official (:icac �.stoerit . Extension of Mining Permit request by Roger Gleason for- mine located on Clark St . Ext . Town of Groton . G . TOTMANa Some, •t. i me ago we gave Roger in conjunction with the DEC vie participated in working on the permit process with Roger for a mining permit for a gravel mining operation . We set up Some rules and r- egul at i oiiS ,, the DEC sets the mining rules and regul at i one up q we Set up the outside rules and regulations . That permit rani out ;Jul '% 1 . The reason Roger did ric:rt_ i. n -to See us~: -to renew it , because he isn ' t compl etel y finished with the project yet , is t:: l-rat Roger' applied to the DEC for an extension for a year and four or five months to finish it off and tiring it into compliance with the reclamation . Me ha = juet this:. Last week gotten the report. bac: l< from the DEC allowing him -to operate until the Fall of 1991 and finish up the rec.. lamation partly in the fall and finishing up in the Spring of 1. 992 . Roger-- waiul. d 1 :i I:: e t. lie Planning Board to extend the ruler: and regulations in the permits they gave him at that time to coincide with the DEC . R . GLEASON : The DEC: tias", given i mr-..:- a Permit to operatea -to July 1 , 1991 . 1 applied again for three yeare . I had been applying one year at sa time and I bleep running into the problem it runs out in the middle of the summer . My intention was that then I would be abl. e to get through the Fall of 1991 and to finish i t . One year wasn ' t quite enough . But You either had a one -- year or- three - yE' ar- per- mi. t n So I -thought. I would go •for a three - year and tl ley Said they di. dn ' t want to go for a three - year . What I really want to do is e„ tend the thing to the Fall of 1991 so I can finish upn The gravel mine is not a major operati on W it is just something I do when I . . . So I axle%- ed i. f they wor..s :l. d extend it- to -the Fall of 1991 and they agreed provided the Planning Board allows i t 4 whether you People go along with thr•.•} Same thing . C . TWIGGa We Haven ' t received any negative feedback; from this operation so far , have we ? G . TOTMAN'a I have not:. personally heard any official compl ai nte* . D . CHATTERTONa One thing does concern me , Roger , do you have enough top soi 1. there So when you ' re through YOU have enough to cover that up . R . GLEASON : YeS , we really haven ' t taken any -top soil , it is all piled l.lp in a big pile . G . TOTMANa The DEC will come in and checl•o: it . 1f he doesn ' t complete -to their sa •t_ :i. sfact:. i on they ' ll come in and do it and char- c:ie him for the R . GLEASONa I eet xpect to be through mining in September or October of 1991n I (nay not have -the reclamation done Until the Spring of 1992 . i I Page 11. TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING HOARD September , 0c 1990 G . TOTMANe Does everybody understand that the DEC really controls whether a pert.-nor, can do mining or can ' t do mining . We can control the outside activities . In this {.permit •that. Roger- just: got. on 1=' age =•> of 3 the DEC :incor•• por•• ated •t i-ie r" ul. es and regi_cl. a::1ti. cins, -that we set fear- Roger „ includes the I-irai..cr of caper'- at•_ i. on ,, etc_ . , that is included with his DEC' permit ,. D . CHATTERTON : That is tl-ie way Mae approved it last year- . G . TOTMANe That ' s eight . Co TWIGG : Now he just wants an extension of that . G . TOTMAN : Arid he has the approval of the DEC . Re GLEASON : I would like to extend the operation of -the mine -to October or November of 1. 991 and allow completion of -the r• ec. l amE, ti on ,, if ne- cessar• y „ in the Spring of 1. 992 . G . TOTMANe We c: an: t extend :it beyond what they extcsnd it . Re GLEASON : If you read that little note from them . . . G . TOTMAN < Their original permit says July 2q 1991 . Re GLEASON : There is a note on the backn G . TOTMANe " Agree to e :et:. encl kaerr mi. t t:aeyond Ji_rl �; ::? 1c�' 91. e :epi. rriti cart date -to allow for- comp 1 et. i on of mining ;acrid over- lap Toi in per- mi. -to " This:: was placed 9 / 5 / 90 in your. file and signed by the 1%1i ne and Land Rec l G, mat i. on Inssspector• 9 John f•1osk: owi tz . Re GLEASON : That is what I am getting at i sq if you people say it is okay to continue t..tnt:. il the Fall of 1991 and finish the. reclamation in the Spring of 1992 we will send it to him and he wi. 1 1 . . . G . TOTMAN : I guess if we stay in the same wave length as we have in the past � and if I remember- cor• r• ect l y our r- ecommendation and our- motion as f ctr as the minutes are concerned is ,, we agreed to give you this permit in the past in ac:: cor- dai ic: e with •t•. 1-6ie DEC as to their re..el es and regulations . Re GLEASON : That is wl-iere I am caught between a rock- and a hard place on i•_ h i s . G . TOTMAN : We can ' t dive you a pe=_ rm :it for more than they are giving you a permit for because they are the ones who give you the permit to move your ground around . When you get done up there you have to satisfy them on your reclamation . Re GLEASON . I understand that . What tie is getting at i. s. . . . evc �r ,,r year- for- -the last three ye. ar <..5 the thing expired arid I had hoped to get it: dearie I ast: year The weather- tiasn ' t cooper- ated and I j Ust tia:, ven ' t been able to d(:a it . If we get. -to Jurie next year acid I am not done , grid T don ' t see any way I am going to be done by June next t year unless the weather- is absol e_rtel y perfect , I gotta go through the whole permit process. , F' age - 122 it TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September 20 , 1990 G . TOTMAN . The DEC says in this attached memo heree . . D . CHATTERTON . " Agree -to ex tend permit: beyond July 2 , 1991 expiration date �I to allow for completion of mining and overlap Town permit . If G . TOTMAN'. I dorC t gt..ti. to understand that . R . GLEASON . What he is referring to , maybe you l l h ::ave to tall.-: to him . V . RANKIN . We will go along with what they approve . G . TOTMAN . If everybody agrees -to Ghat we agreed to before , we agreed to whatever the DEC says. , if the DEC will change the original date , actually the original permit says July :' , 1991 . If then DEC says -to Roger " ok: Ety YOU can operate to October 1 and clean t_tp and you have to be all cleaned t..tp by May I " or something l i Ere that ., would the Board agree to make a rrsot i or•, to go along with -this extension that he is asl:: :i. ng for as long ass i •t: <.-B •tayi5 in accordance with the DEC ' s regulations ? Cecil Twi gg made the MOTION the Planning Board agrees to e ;: tend the Gravel Mining Permit of ROGER GLEASON in accordance with the DEC ' _. rules and regt..tl at i ons to the Fall of 1991 and with the reclamation in agreement with DEC ' s timetable , David Chatterton second the motion VOTE : ALL IN FAVOR MOTION CARRIED Proposed Amendments to Mobile Home Law G . TOTMAN . The proposed amendment to the Mobile Home Law he is calling the def in 'i ti. on of a mobile home i " a transportable..." " A mobile home is mant_lfac •tt..tr- ed in accordance with the standards . . . " you really have to follow t. hat because that is a State I aw . " A mobile home crust contain the minimum number of square , feet of living space as required by Section 325 of the Land Use Law . " That ' s right , D . CHATTERTON . Why don ' t we take out the dimensions and zero in on the sgt_tare footage . G . VanSLYKE . Section 325 of the Land Use Law requires a certain square footage , right ? G . TOTMAN . I am oppo !5ed to -th'7e rest of this where he goes on to say , It . without r.. ons :i Jeri n • basement ._. � r . . g any L, a - r_ rrc. nt. attachments cor7 �, trt_tc� ter_! on -- .�. i. te „ or other appurtenances . If You are getting back: to discriminating against ra person with a mobile home . You are saying that :if you have an 841';> square foot building yot_Cre living in fine , you can get a building permit and add to ita but if it :is a mobile home you can ' t . V . RANKIN : No , that ' s not right . Co TWIGG . An original house has to be e4r) square feet , too . G . TOTMAN . That ' s right , but he is saying here . . . Page - 13 I I TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September 20 , 199 ( i V . RANKIN : " . . . without c:: onsi der i. ng . . . " I think, he me-anus they can do these things but not . . . I G . TOTMANe It mear•is they cari ' t do these things . D . CHATTERTON : He was c.{ i..iest. i oni rig whether we want -to say that or wE:.1 want to allow additions being counted . i C . TWIGG : I think: the basement , and that ' s wheat we said in the start . If a guy puts a Cellar Under- a housF and it is liveable space , -that i s counted . If a guy puts a cellar under a trailer and it is liveable space then it should be counted . In other words , a guy goes to the trouble of putting a foundation acid a cellar- under- a trailer- , I mean he is PLAtt i ng ►..sp a pretty good shanty , it is not . . . V . FANKINa I wouldn ' t go with that . i C . TWIGGO. It is all living space . i G . VanSLYKE : My question is on this dimensions of this -thing . This 84C) square feet , most of the mobile homes you see in -the lots. today are at Ieast that: , aren ' t they . How {rtarty of t: hSeG. e things are f1. C] zat. ir7g arc:, urtci ti-gat are less than 840 sgUare feet ? You woi..il dn ' t put a foundation under a ca (Tiping railer , would you ? G . TOTMAN : We have 1-; ad requests for that. . People Have bought camping trailers for their parents and they don ' t want to traveal any more so they waist to set: up next to their- scan or daughter . We have actually had people come :i r•i for- permits for f oi_iridat :i ons SO they Could put their trailers on them . The Zoning Board of Appeals has approved them . That ' s something vie want. to talk about later . Co TWIGG : I ' m not at all sure that ' s too bad . 840 square feet is a lot of space for an old couple to maintain . G . TOTMANe You are getting away from the main thing . The intent of the ordinance is you require them to have 840 square -feet. of living space . It tells YOU very =:.• tr- ongl y that you can ' t take this little small trailer from Homer or Dryden and bring it into Groton . You can ' t bring it in . We are talking about bringing in new things and not what is already here in Groton . YOU are talking about wi-iat the zoning officer looks at and says , " what can I give them a per- mit for ? " He is saying to you , " I care give a permit for a residence with an add - on or a basement with habitable space " bi..i •t if YOU pass this as i. t is written you can ' t do the same thing for a mobile tiomc:-� . I say that is riot: right . Don ' t get me wror•ig , I am riot a big pusher of mobile homes but I think: they have to be treEtted the same . We have had a lot of discussions about mobile homes . We were getting a lot of influx of mobile homes in this town that wouldn ' t meet the requirements- in other towns , so we had to do something . That is- why we put that ezi- i square foot in there . J' age - 14 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September a 05 1990 C . TWIGG . We talked about it before . If my father-- wanted -to come and live with uS . He is able to take care of himself , kind of independent . For t_ce to put him up an E340 sgc_tare -foot dwelling for him to live in sc) mewh•7er F-� close where we could k: eep trar_: l•:: . . . G . VanSLYKE . Put him Upstairs . C . TWIGG . Supposing he didn ' t want to move in with i c_c <_? G . TOTMAN . Get a mobile home , there are a :tot of them out there this 1= 1 Z e . C . TWIGG . ' Why would he want -to maintain and heat. 84C} square feet of living space . . . but then when he is gone we don ' t want it on the house . G . TOTMAN . That is what. I want to talk: about later . That is what this thing is all about . They call. them Granny Flats . C . TWIGG . I: think: we ought to make Some kind of provi. si one. for something 1 i. l:: e thy.-it . G . VanSLYKE . So it. seems like Some of you have a thing against -the , " . . . nominal di mertsi arts . . . " meeting that basic. requirement of E340 <.agc..care f eet .. HOW wOul d -%/O .c reword this So yot..t are not opening up a whole can of worms here for any size trailer -to come i no You Open th•ti s th•ti ng up and � take away that minimum , what you are going to do is some guy is going to move a camping trailer i ri and say ' 1 am going to do this . . . ' G . TOTMAN . He can ' t do that . G . VanSLYKE . But that. :i. basically what you are going to allow have happen by eliminating the minimum . G . TOTMAN . No , it says , ' a mobile home roust contain the number of square feet of living space as required by Section 325 of the t._ and t_! se law of the Town of Groton ' that is e4=t sgt..care feet . Stop it right there . That is all you need . You don ' t need the rest of the garbage on there . G . VanSLYKE . So what is wrong with it being on there ? G . TOTMAN . _, � "Ycit_l are discriminating against n _ anybody aJtio doe _ n • 't build a regular- house . C . TWIGG . I agree with George . G . VanSLYKE . I don ' t understand why , I just can ' t figure out where ycat_► are coming from . If a cIc_ty goe <.� oc_tt. and bc_cyS-- a trailer that. has 840 Square feet he doesn ' t have to worry about putting a basement: under it , attachments or whatever -that is . . . G . TOTMAN . George , you ' re right , he doesn ' t have to worry about it because he has met. it . But. next. year he wants to do it , :if this is in there he can ' t add that room on . i i Page - 15 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September 205 1990 G . VanSLYKE : Why not ' G . TOTMAN : Because it says right here he can ' t have :i t . That ' s why I m saying if you stop where it says- ' Town of Groton ' G . VanSLYKE : Then you are reading it different: than I am , George . I act•, reading it. this way . I ' m saying we are tal k: i ng about: �.--somethi ng being (C brought into this town and placed on a lot . It doesn ' t say that these things , :it says ' within the nominal dimensions ' that its the first initial thing that comes in . That is the way I act- reading this thine . C . TWIGG : Nova what he has to do , this thing i s saying here , he has got -to buy a mobile home without any attachments or anything on it it has to equal 840 square Feet . G . VanSLYKE : That ' s correct . C . TWIGG : Now if you was building a house ,, you wouldn ' t have to do -that . Yr.u could build a cel l. rar and theca , bring in less -than 8 ' 0 square feet to put: on top of it . . . M . CAREY : No , yc7u can ' t . t . V . RANKIN : No ., no , no . M . CAREY *. No , you can ' t . The zoning law says You have to have 84 ."t > quare feet . . . G . TOTMAN : You say no before Cecil finished bc_tt. he :is right . You didn ' t let him finish . He said you can build a cellar and have habitable space in the cellar . If it is habitable space c.cndei tl� e St: ake� building codes that is considered part of his 8 �10 sgc_carca feet . that ' s right . C . TWIGG : Then fie can buy a modular and put On top of it that may be 400 square feet . G . TOTMAN : It is being done -the way Cecil described . C . TWIGG : I see no reason why it shouldn ' t be done •that. way . G . TOTMAN : That ' s right . I think: it ' s great to discuss this so everybody understand = what you are talking abou -t . t_lnlc= ss you are getting involved in it you don ' t understand it . I+ you don ' t get involved tlie only way -to understand it is to have F.-i diG'iC: i_tr-..siCan . C . TWIGG : In other words , YOU get a building permit -to put an addition on an existing structure . G . VanSLYKE : You can still do that with a trailer . C . TWIGG : But with this you can ' t do this . You would have to br i nc_t in the total. amount . G . VanSLYKE : It doe =_> n ' t stay anything about you can ' t add on . Page - 16 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Seoptember- 209 199 !J1 C . TWIGG . L= Ut you have to i.:: •t: art out. with So much . Yot..t Have to purchase that much in a unit . V . RANKIN . That: ' s right , that is what you should do . C . TWIGG : No . V . RANKIN . In a mobile home YOU should purchase that much . C . TWIGG : No . G . TOTMAN . The initial mobile home <.: houl. d be 841C) square feet . I just want to make sure that . . . G . VanSLYKE : I agree with Verl . I don ' t think- you should allow . . . C . TWIGG . I don ' t: agree . If you was retired and your wife was gone � :.:end all your kids was gone you decide that you wanted a trailer . . . G . TOTMAN . I can agree to what you are saying up to a certain point , but wl-gat you are t. al 4•:: :i ng about is something vie St OUl d address as a different i. c SUe and most towns are . When we get: done here we are going to talk: about going to the Planning Federation seminars because so many times you can learn from these people what: lawsuits are , what Article '7e , s are and how you can get. Sued in towns -for not allowing certain things . C . TWIGG . But we have to get this paragraph straightened out . G . TOTMAN . But don ' t -try to change the whole ordinance for that 84C) square feet . C . TWIGG . So lets drop it after ' Town of Groton ' So a mobile home MU (.5t have so many square foot whether it is an add - on , basements or anything .j t.tst like you was building a house . A basement would be , if habitable space . . . G . TOTMAN . Where you are going to lose that argument is in a house you build habitable space in the cellar you have access to the basement from inside the house . In a -trailer you have to go outside to get to the habitable space :in the cellar . C . TWIGG . Not necesG:. ari1y . i G . TOTMAN . What. your :intent is , I agree with you . D . CHATTERTON . That is a strong point t:. hat puts it bac k% -to Verl ' ' s argument ; about going outside to go upstairs . How many single trailers with 840 Square feet do you see with a stairway going down to the basement ? G . TOTMAN . There isn ' t any . 'That is where you ' ll get defeated on this in court. . C . TWIGG . Double widen . i Page - 17 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September 20.E 199c > D . CHATTERTON : We aren ' t t. al b:: i ng about double w :i. des . C . TWIGG : 'That. ' s a trailer . D . CHATTERTON : The 840 square feet doesn ' t fall into the doUble wider . Co TWIGG . Yesq it does . G . VanSLYKE : The double wide e :. r_: eeds it . D . CHATTERTON : I thin [:: that is the point that puts it right back to Verl ' argument . C . TWIGG „ They have cellar ways. in these trailers . G . VanSLYKE : I thought what we were trying to do was set the minimum . I didn ' t think: we were trying to tal:: e care of all the exceptions in the world . We get off we•7 start talking about these trailers , as I understand it this is a single trailer . M . CAREY :'; Like Mine . C . TWIGG . I) o yoc..c have 840 square feet ? M . CAREY : It is a 14 x 70 . D . CHATTERTON : Is that the average size -trailer that you bought ", M . CAREYe Yes . There are smaller trailers but they l :: now what the zoning law for Groton is and they wouldn ' t sell me a smaller one . Most of the homes are 14 x 70 now . G . TOTMAN : Let ' s get- on with this thing . M . CAREY : What we are talking about: is a tr <.ci l er with 840 square feet , right ? 'This isn ' t with any additions put on the home , right ? This is the basic 840 square feet ? i G . VanSLYKE : That is what we are trying to determine . George VanSl yke made the Motion the Pl. anni ng Board propose to the Groton Town Board the following change to the Mobile Home Ordinance for the Town of Groton . !.Under Article III . Definitions delete the definition for Mobile Home and replace it with -the following . Article III . Definitions . Mobile Home . A transportable , in one or more sections , single family dwelling unit which is built on a j permanent chassis and designed to be used as a dwelling unit , with or Without a permanent foundation , when connected to -the regc_cired utilities , and which includes the plc..cmbing , heating , air- conditioning and electrical systems contained ther ei no A mobile home is manufactured in accordance with the standardv: of the U . S . Department of Page 18 "CC)WN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September . 0 , 1. 99 'i Housing and Urban Development as contai ncssd in Part 3290 of 4 Cf~ R ,, Chapter XX . c mobi 1. e home must contain the minimum number of square feet of living space as required by the Lund Us& and Development Code of the Town of Groton within the nominal. dimensions of the manuf actor- ed unit without considering any basement , attachments constructed on; s. i to or other appurtenances . David Chatterton second the mot. i on q Discussion . G . TOTMANa I am not in favor of the wording of it . j C . TWIGGa :L don ' t agree either- . G . TOTMANa I. agree with the intent that any mobile home brought: into I this town should have a minimum of 8z6o square feet of :Living space . D . CHATTERTON : That is -the motion . G . TOTMANa Th•7at i. s what I agree with . I don ' t agree with saying that. You can leave any reasonable doubt in there that that guy can ' t do the same thing with that as yoia can with a regular house . I acjr- ee that no new dwelling unit s{-} ouI d be pc_ct in this town under e4o sgl.care f eet R but in the same token you (:: an buy a mobile home . . . D . CHATTERTONa This proposal doesn ' t say you can ' t do that . C . TWIGGa Yes , i t does . G . TOTMANa What: happened in the law „ somehow it got in there one said 1 2x '/O and one said 14 %. 60 and the town attorney said that ' s. the only size trailer you can have , with those dimensions . We are trying to make it clear- we are riot putting 1 es 7j i , we are not putting 1 �F :% roc=} . . . it ' s obvious the motion says e40 square feet . I am agreeing with you but you Might acid " neu,I dwelling unit coming into this town . " i C . TWIGG . That. , Georgeq would allow some of these small trailers in I -the Town that don ' t meet the ree{ui rements •that we ar +- trying to eliminate to move from one part: of the Town to another . I M CAREYa You can ' t move a small trailer from here to here because zoning will riot allow it . I V . RANKIN : I think that is another point . M . CAREYa If it is sitting right here it wi :Ll allow it . C . TWIGGa We are going to change that hereq though ,, if we are not careful . f G . VanSLYKEa { -low area vie changing it ? Page - 19 I TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September- 20 1990 M . CAREY : You can ' t allow moving a small trailer from here over to here because this the first location is probably grand + athered in but t !•ic=_ new location would riot be grandfathered in . I G . VanSLYKE : You are going to a different law . f C . TWIGG : Not the way George said it . He said we have to Have 84 () square feet. of living space for any new unit brought into the Town . That f one is already Here , so we can move it to another portion of the Town . M . CAREYON But it ' s not 840 square feet. . i C . TWIGG : That ' s where we have to be careful about George ' s verbiage . Do you see what: I mean , George ? Otherwise , a guy grandf athered in a small trailer that didn ' t meet the standards that: is good anyplace in the Town of f.3rot: on now . i M . CAREY : No . C . TWIGG . If You were carefc.sl , he Could say that. . G . TOTMANQ I -thin [:: t_ I-► at- part should be left -the way that it i s . If •that guy wants -to do it now , suppose David had a place , everything wacS beautiful but the square footage didn ' t meet regulations and he is renting -the land that he is living on and he has been living there for ten years> and the guy se1 1 s the land . He is being forced off of the land because the guy wants to sell the I and so the guy says , ' now what am I going -to do . ' What I am netting at , you have lived there all these gears , you are paying for- a lease , you come in and say I have bought an acre of land , I have room for my septic , I want to move what I am living i. n now to here . D . CHATTERTON : Now , I don ' t agree . C . TWIGGe Now he has 840 square feet of living space so he is all set . D . CHATTERTON ; No , he doesn ' t . C . TWIGG : Yes he does , with the add - on . D . CHATTERTON : According to this definition he doesn ' t have 840 square feet . r G . TOTMAN : That is riot our definition , that: :is Gary : definition . C . TWIGG : That: is why I say be careful about Putting that def i ni. t. i on :in . D . CHATTERTON : It says , ' the mobile home must contain the number of square feet . . . ' His mobile Home doesn ' t. contain -that . Co TWIGGe Yes , it does , with that add -on . D . CHATTERTON : Tl-tat ' s not part of -the mobile home . Page - 20 I TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD September '20 , 1990 C . TWIGG : Ye <sv it its . G . TOTMAN : How would this sound to yciu , stop the paragraph after ` manufactured unit ' then these situations that you are ta .11 :: ing abo ►-► t: , we have a mechanism in our ordinance right now that. I think shoul'd be used . The :coning officer turns- down a rec:l►..► est for a permit and that person has the option of going to the. Zoning Board of Appeals . If he can prove 1-iarclshi p and meet all their criteria ., let him prove it to the ZBA . George VanSl yke amended his Motion to end at within the nominal dimensions of the manUfaCtur•• ed unit . ' David Chatterton second the motion ; VOTE ° ALL IN FAVOR MOTION CARRIED I The motion as approved now reads . George VanSlyke made the Motion the Planning Board propose I to the Groton Town Board the following change to the M (.) bi l e Home Ordinance for the Town of Groton ". Under Article III . Definitions delete the definition for Mobile Home and replace it with the following ; Article III . Definitions . � Mgl:3i l e _Home . A transportable , in one or more sections , single family dwelling ►- nit which is built on c-I permanent chassis and designed to be used as a dwelling unit , with or without a permanent foundation , when connected to the required utilities , and which includes the pl ►..► rribi. ng , heating , air- cond :i ti or•i i ng and electrical systems contained ther• ei. n . A mobile home is manufactured in accordance with the standards of the U . S . Department of Housing and Urban De••✓ el opment. as contained in Fart. of 24 CFR , Chapter XX . A mobile home m ►_► s •t: contain the minimum number of square feet of living space as required by the Land Use and Development Code of the Town of Groton , within the noniinal dimensions of the manufactured unit . G . VanSLYKEO Let ' s move to Art i. c: l e 1. 'v.'1 that: Gary war-its to delete . G . TOTMAN : Does everybody under• =stand Gary ' s reason for wanting to take ] •t: hi s out '? * * Board understands reasons for delet. ina Article 15 . 7 * * * George VanSlyke made the MOTION the Planning Board propose to the Groton Town Board the following change to the Moki :i. l e Home Ordinance for the Town of Groton as- being uncont. rol abl e , unnecessary and unenforceable . Article XV : Mobile Homes Not in a Mobile Home Park. 1. . 7 - D__e .s_�iu.:.e__ t Occuy::iancy Certificates sl"ial l be reviewed at. l east: j � every three years and renewed aut. omati cal l y i f there are not violation !:-. of the provisions of this i local law ? j David Chatterton second the motion .n VOTED ALL IN FAVOR MOTION CARRIED I I Page - 21 I • TOWN Of GRO T ON PLANNING BOARD September 20 , 1990 D . CHATTERTON : I don ' t.: see anything wrong with Gary ' s proposed change to -the definition of a Construction Permit: in Article III of the Mobile Home Ordinance . I would make the motion for t: h•ia •t . G . TOTMANO. Da:tvi d „ would it be permissible to make the motion and change the wording from ' written permit ' to ' building permit ' and change the wording from ' construction ' to ' the preparation of an individual mobile home Site ' rather than t: h er way it reads r-cow ^ It :i c: saying the sauce thing it does now bt_tt adding a building permit is required -for the installation of an individual mobile licrme in a mobile home % a � David Chatterton made the MOTION the Planning Board propose -to the Groton Town Board the following change to the Mobile Home Ordi n4:1nce ! for the Town of Grotr-_ino. ( Underline - new ) Article III . Definitions . Construction Permit : A written permit i. sst_ted by the Town of Groton aut. hori 4 i rig t: he const: r- uc_ t:. i. on of a Mobile Home Park when the plans for said park are in compliance with the pr• ovi. si ons of this local law and have received requi red re •vi ews and appr•- oval 5 . I:+ t_ i. I di ng _- F' c= r. m i t _ A written permit issued by the Town of Groton authorizing the prg.? r2 drat. i_r_in of an individual mobile home site when the plant for said individual mobile home construction its in compliance with; the provisions of this .Local Law and have received required red reviews and approvals . A_ L•� t_ii ldincg- -_ permit s_ al so_ ri• equi red _ for the _ ins:�t .allation _ of _ a mobile home _ i.. n _. an _ aLproved _ mobi1e_ home Lark - � Monica Carey second the motion . VOTEo ALL IN FAVOR MOTION CARRIED Granny Flats G . TOTMANO. I passed out information on the Granny Flats . There is a strong movement throughout the countryside now about mothers - in - law , fathers-in -- law ,, grandfathers , grandmothers . . . thi s is ,, 1• think- 9 a good star ) into the ri gl -ct di rec •ti on Ther (e :i is a lot of t. houghit being pt..tt into this . There is a lot of concepts about this kind of thing . A lot of communities ) are thi ni.:A ng abot..t •t: making a separate ordinance whereby in cases like this they get an agr• eersient with the health department that they can Use the sami septic system . You can <_c :l 1 crag them to do it while they y are alive . Or-icet. l-cj need is gone the Granny Flat is done . Yot_t are not: changing the I r•iei ghborhood permanently . This wac> i t..ts •t. one version presented . I just: spent time at the National Assoc_ i at i on of Towns Conference in Washington r_i :i <._> ct..tssing these t. iiings . We :icea plarining board should be lool:: ing into this kind of th-c :ing . I I I Page - 2? TOWN OF GR04TO!',•! PLANNING BOARD September } 199 : r NYS Planning Federation Conference G . TOTMANO. The Town of Groton , as I understand i t q allovis members of the Boards to go .to meetings at. :least once a s' e <�tr . In the fall the New York State Planning Federation has ra This year- it is at Lake P :l ac: i d . I am going to ciao to i. t. 9 it is in October . It is edL.tcat i of-gal. q all they talk: about is planning and zoning . Sheldon , Cecil anr_I Monica are interested in going . Monica Carey made the motion the Planning Board meeting be adjourned , Cecil l wi gg second the motion . The meeting was adjourned at 10: 1O p . m . The next regular- meeting of the Town of Groton Planning Hoard will be held Thursday ., October 18 , 1990 at 8e 00 p . mb Resipectft_tl I y ., s� llar ret A . Palmer_ Page