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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1988-06-16 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD , 9 Thursday , June 16 , 1988 , 8 s 00 P . M . BOARD PUBLIC PRESENT * George To' tman , Chairman David DuMont , Lick St . * Michael Past , Vice - Chairman Mr and Mrs . Gary Hendrix , * Cecil Tw i g g Sovocoo 1 Hill Rd . * Veil Rankin Roger Gleason , Old Stage Rd . * Monica Carey Colleen Pierson , Town Clerk * Bill Casoiara # Gary Ballou ( * present ) GEORGE TOTMAN , Chairman , opened the Planning Board meeting at 8d05 p . m . Minutes of the May 19 , 1988 meeting were reviewed : BILL CASOLARA questioned the second on the motion on Page 5 for approval of the Griep Subdivision . MINUTES should be corrected to read that MONICA CAREY seconded the motion . BILL CASOLARA made the motion the minutes , as corrected be approved ; VERL RANK I N second the motion ; Motion Carried . 11 SITE PLAN_ REVIEW _ for a Lot for Storage of Storage Trailers at 757 Lick. M St . , Town of Groton , proposed by DAVID DUMONT ; "fax Map No . 20 - 1 - 2 . B 1 1 a G . TOTMAN : Dave , the normal procedure for a Site Plan Review is the applicant presents it to the Beard . The options of the Board are a ) . they can accept it that night , b ) analyze it to see what ,, kind of an impact it will have or, the surrounding area , c ) whether a public hearing should be held or not . Then the Board has 45 days to make the decision . They could make the decision anytime within the 45 days . If they don ' t make a decision within the 45 days , it is in your favor . Be BALLOUa What kind of trailers are you talking about ? D . DUMONTa Storage trailers . Like the trailers downtown here . ( Surplus Depot , W . South St . and Railroad Ave . Village of Groton ) Mostly 40 , 42 and 45 foot ' trailers , These would be empty ,, they won ' t have anything in them . I rent storage trailers with a minimum of one month rental so it is a situation where we are not taking a trailer here today and bringing it back tomorrow . Probably the average time out for a trailer is E months'. Sometimes we don ' t take any out or back in for a week and sometimes we might take three . This would mainly be a back - up ., area for me to put trailers when I buy them . One batch I boi_tght ' I had to buy 23 at a time and a situation I am working on involves 40 trailers . The problem is I don ' t have enough ,f, 00rii , can the lot in the Village . Some of them I have to fix the roof and get them in shape and I need a place to store them . Rage - 1 M . POST : Haw marry trailers fit on the lot in the Village ? D . DUMONT : I would say around ' 30 , I really don ' t know . I put them far enough apart so we can get between them to fix them . G . TOTMAN : As I see what you have proposed it is gaping to be quite a ways off of Lick. St . It appears they will not be visible from the road , is that correct ? D . DUMONT : I have some pictures here to show you . The proposed area is 800 feet back from the road . The lot is located east of Lick St . B . CASOLARA : Can you show me on the map where the existing property residences are . I don ' t think there is anything on the road . . . . you are near the dip , right ? D . DUMONT : My land goes into the dip . B . CASOLARA : Are there any houses or residences around there ? D . DUMONT : The adjoining parcel has no house on it and the corner parcel has no house on it right now . There are homes around the corner on Clark St . G . TOTMAN : You are 200 foot back from Clark St . Ext . ? Co TWIGG : Lot No . 44 is your wife ' s lot ? D . DUMONT : Yes . C . TWIGG : And there is a barn that sets back on the lot and that ;', barn has been there , right ? D . DUMONT : Yes , that is my barn and it has been there since we built 12 to 15 years ago . B . CASOLARA : The major traffic flaw will be via Rte 22 '? D . DUMONT : To take them out , probably yes . The site of the parcel is approximately 22 acres . B . CASOLARA : On the _original application you state in Item 7 the area affected is initially 21 . 13 and is ultimately 21 . 13 . Do you intend to store the trailers over the entire lot or ,just this area you outlined on the map ? D . DUMONT : Whatever 200 x 400 equals . I probably will never have to use that much of an area . There is a small man- made creek throughk the lot , there is a wooded area that goes back to the road , and a gravel bank . G . BALLOU : Do you need to grade the area ? Page D . DUMONT : It is flat , I .just have to knock down scrub trees and put some gravel in . so BALLOU : Do you plan to do repair work there ? Doll DUMONT : No , I might change a tire if it needed it , but there won ' t be any equipment here for repairs . Co , TWIGG : So this is primarily a storage area ? D . DUMONT : Yes . C . TWIGG : That barn isn ' t that visible from the road . D . DUMONTa The barn is probably E00 feet back from the road and where I would start putting the trailers is probably about 806 feet . Go What do you anticipate to be the biggest number of trailers can the lot at a time ? D . I DUM 1 : If, I have 50 trailers there it is costing me money . I don ' t make . money unless they are rented out , so I don ' t 11 want to i have a lot there at one time , I want them out working for me . G . " TOTMAN : What provision do you make for a trailer that is no ^ longer usable for that type of an operation ? D . DUMONT : I try not to buy them that way . G . I�TOTMAN : What about after you have had them for a while ? D . DUMONT : In that case , if they are no more use to me , I would sell them . G . TOTMAN : What I am thinking of is what about the ones that are no i longer usable , we don ' t want a trailer .junkyard there . D . DUMONT : Most all of the trailers I have are readable trailers . C . TWIGG : So when you sell them you sell them for storage units , not for over the road ? 11 D . DUMONT : Well , yes , I have never sold any yetg one I did sell ';, it was a piece of ,junk , that was the only one I have sold . I ' m 1, real careful when I buy them . Sometimes I have to take one or two I don ' t want and those I would sell . I can sell more than I can get because people call me quite often wanting to buy one . I .j ' don ' t want to sell them . I had to refuse 3 people this week because I did not have enough trailers to rent for storage . Page - 3 I i i B . CASOLARA : - Would trailers be considered .junk ? I ' m suggesting � it in the event of the worse possible scenario , he has a lost of disabled trailers laying around could the Planning Bayard or ! Zoning Officer take issue about there being junk ? f G . TOTMAN : With the Town Ordinance we have , junk , as well as vehicles , . one is almost as bad as the other if it is deteriorating the neighborhood , B . CASOLARA : So there is an escape valve . In other words , I o 9 � -� i� � don ' t see arty need to put a restriction _ n the application , that in the worse case scenario� that you do end up with a lot Of junk trailers , there are other sections that would affect that if there were junk trailers around . I ' m not saying there will be but . . . . i D . DUMONT : It ' s not worth it to rile to have something there _ I that I can t rent Out .gut . When it ' s time to get rid of one , I will get rid of it . ` G . BALLOU : Do you transport them yourself ? i D . DUMONT : No , Albert and Nye of Moravia transports them for rile . G . BALLOU : Should we be concerned about the road ? G . TOTMAN : They are not loaded when they are transported . D . DUMONT : We run them with transporter plates . You can ' t carry anything in them with transporter plates . B . CASOLARA : Is this a dirt read ? D . DUMONT : Gravel , iI G . TOTMAN : Any more questions for Dave ? ` D . DUMONT .a _I would probably also put pine trees in the front of the existing trees . I have a nice home there and I don ' t want it to go down hill either . C . TWIGG : It would be hard to see what ' s going on back there unless they drove down your driveway . G . TOTMAN : Dave , as soon as the Board makes a decision you will be contacted . SITE PLAN _ REVIEW for an Auto Body Repair Shop , 771 Sovocool Hill Rd'' . , Town of Groton , proposed by GARY HENDRIX , Tax Map No . 32 - 1 - 14a 1 : G . TOTMAN : You are requesting permission to have a body shop ? Page - 4 Do you already have the facilities for it or are you going to have to build ? G . HENDRIX : That ' s what I ' m going to do with the garage , I ' m going to build that into the body shop . G . TOTMAN : Is the present garage big enough for it ? G . HENDRIX : I ' m going to add about 10 feet on the back of it for the air compressor and furnace and have it sealed off with a door . B . CASOLARA : Is this a non - conforro i ng lot ? G . TOTMAN : Yes , C . TWIGG : That is only 100 foot frontage there ? G . HENDRIX : The property is 100 foot wide , yes and 495 foot deep . G . TOTMAN : The Tax Map says 470 feet . B . CASOLARA : Do you know how far the building is from the property line ? G . HENDRIX : The driveway is Marlin Houston ' s driveway but he told me I could use it . The property line is , I guess , right along the driveway . Probably to the building is 5 or E feet . B ^ CASOLARA : What happens in that case if he wants to get a Building Permit ? G . HENDRIX : I am going to add off the back into the property , B . CASOLARA : What about space for a parking lot ? 11 G . HENDRIX : The cars would be parked to the back of the garage . G . TOTMANa So that I don ' t get into toys much detail , you heard roe explain earlier the process for a Site plan Review , bear in mind some of the questions the planning Board will have to consider . No . 1 it is a non - conforming lot , that means it was there pre -existing to the Ordinance ; a conforming lot has 200 foot of frontage . The Zoning Law says , if my memory serves me correctly , the side yard distances have to be 20 feet overall or on , either side not closer than 8 feet . In this particular case , as , I see it , No . 19 do you add to a non - conforroing lot ? and secondly , if the building itself is only 5 feet from the line now , and the requirements are 8 feet , it is okay as long as it was already there , but when you add to something you are not suppose to make something of a non -conforroing use more non - conforming than it was . If everything else . is okay , you might i Page - J have to move the addition �ever 3 feet . It is one of these possibility things . It does say in the Ordinance , which the Planning Board has to go by, that the minimum side yard is 8 feet . It is already non - conforming because it was there when the Ordinance was passed . As I see what you want to do with it , there would be no question at all if you had a 200 foot lot , but it is not . That is one of the things the Board has to take into consideration . B . CASOLARA : Could I suggest that on the application the activity type be changed to 133 . 72 rather than 133 . 21 , it seems to be more appropriate . The Zoning District codes are identical but from the point of view of classifying the activity , I think . 72 ° is more suitable . G . TOTMAN : Upon application the activity was classified as 133 . 21 as a Repair Service , basically you are repairing somebody else ' s merchandise . 133 . 72 refers to Vehicle Repairing and that more clearly clarifies the activity . It has no effect on the application itself . ( explanation to Mr . Hendrix on changing of classification of activity , on application . ) B . CASOLARA : Will there be any materials of environmental impact such as solvents and cleaners involved ? G . HENDRI X : Yes . B . CASOLARA : How are those to be taken care of ? G . HENDRIX0 Where I work now we have 50 gallon drums that You Put the waste material in the drum and you call a company in that business to come and pump it out or you can buy a r• ecycl ing machine that recycles the waste . Basically , all I would use it for is 'l cleaning gurus and stuff like that . 11 B . CASOLARA : Will there be any stored gasoline on the premises ? G . HENDR I X : No , and as far as the thinner goes there would be no big quantity of that either . G . TOTMAN : You are not doing this for a full - time living ? G . HENDRI X : No , not right away , no , G . BALLOU : This wo, U1d be strictly body work as opposed to changing oil and other types of repair ? G . HENDRIX : I would do ether types of things if it was something I could do . If people had there car in and wanted it done , I could do other things on it too . G . BALLOUa That relates to Bi l l ' s question of disposal of waste materials , how would dispose of the oil ? Page _ 6 I I G . HENDRIX : I ' d do the same thing , store it in drums and have the waste disposal company came and pick it up . G . BALLOU : This map attached to the application does not indicate other properties around yours in terms of other houses . G . HENDRIX : Charlie Bernhardt is next door with a field I between ; his house sets way back from the road . There is a house � across the read . G . BALLOU : I guess being new on the Board and not being as familiar with the procedure , but in reading through the Site Plan � Review regulations it talks about a map that shows more than what you have here in terms of the location of other properties in the I area . G . HENDRIX : On the other side of me there are no houses for approximately a quarter of a mile . B . CASOLARA : What would be the most number of vehicles you will have at one time ? G . HENDRIX : I could get probably as marry as 20 or 30 on that ' piece . There would be no sense in doing it . . . . . . . . . G . TOTMAN : To rephrase Bi l l ' s question , the only cars that 'you would have there would be customers ' cars ? G . HENDRIX : Yes . G . TOTMAN : You wouldn ' t have any cars there for sale ? G . HENDRIX : Not that I can think of , no . I don ' t think I want 11 to get into that . B . CASOLARA : Is there a permit required to operate a motor vehicle repair shop ? G . TOTMAN : Yes . B . CASOLARA . Isn ' t there a Town permit required ? G . TOTMAN : Yes , he has to get permission here before he gets the Town permit . G BALLOU : On the application you note you have water and sewer , will you have this for the building ? G .'' HENDRIX . I have water and sewer for the trailer . I will 11 run a water line to the garage . The garage has 110 electric to it and I will put in a 220 line , I will probably run that underground with the water line . Page 7 I I i I G . BALLOU : If you have water there , what are you going to have for the waste water ? I G . HENDRIX : I will probably put drains in the floor for the water . I ' m not sure how I will have to go about doing that . I Whether I dig a big hole , fill it with racks and a 55 gallon drum with a well casing , nothing is going into it except water . Water would be from washing the cars and wet staining . G . BALLOU : Are you going to have toilet facilities in the garage ? G . HENDRIX : Not right away , no . Eventually I would like to put another trailer or double wide in . When I get to that I 1 would probably dog that . I G . TOTMAN : Who owns the field between you and Bernhardt ? I G . HENDRIX : He does . I tried t buy it but the previous owner would not sell it to me . I think the bank took it back and the next thing I knew was Charlie awned it . G . TOTMAN : Are there any further questions ? If not , the Board will be in touch with you concerning their decision . OTHER BUSINESS BEFORE THE BOARD C . PIERSONa I read the minutes of the last meeting and it was a little bit disturbing to me . You could not determine whether a minor subdivision needed a public hearing or whatever . It is really clear that a miner subdivision does require a hearing . I yell people that when they . come in and then you say no it ' s up to you . If You don ' t want it that way , let rile know . I ' m dealing with the people and I am going by the Ordinance . Right there it is , a minor subdivision requires a hearing . 11 The 'next thing you couldn ' t decide was you had a proposal for a subdivision , you had riot approved it but you gave Gary W . permission to issue a building permit . In the Ordinance it says , nce Building Permit is to be issued until a subdivision is : approved . I have to go by what I read . I deal with it everyday . You people are not here to see it . I try to keep on top of it . I t , doesn ' t matter if it is that particular case or any case , they are all treated the same . Another thing , con all the Minor Subdivisions you get one sketch of one little parcel . In the County they don ' t accept that as a Subdivision . In the Zoning Ordinance it states you must have the entire parcel with the subdivision . These people are going dawn with just one little lot' showing . In other words , it is never recorded as an approved Subdivision , it is .just a building lot can record . That is what they are telling me dawn there . They knew what the rules and regulations are , they have them because I took there down there but you are riot requiring them . You accept a sketch cof one plat Page - 8 and that is all you are requiring of them . The Ordinance says they should have a map of the entire parcel and that ' s the way I read it . If you want it different then tell me . C . ° TWIGG : Take Roger Gleason ' s proposals . How much of his farm has to be included ? co PIERSONa The entire parcel , anything between the road fr6ntages is one parcel and all should be included in the map . C . TWIGGa All that Roger owns in that parcel or all that ' s in ^ that parcel ? In other words the one in the northwest corner that we are talking about now , he is asking for a subdivision , we need a plat that covers all of it even further north ? C . PIERSON : Anything in between the roads . C . ' TWIGG : All the way over to Ch i pmans Corners Rd . and down we need that whole section ? C . IPIERSON : You certainly do , that is what the County Clerk is telling me . 11 C . TWIGG : I never understood it like that . It C . PIERSON : And if you read it in your Zoning Ordinance , it tells you that in there . it C . TWIGG : I was under the impression it went by what Roger owned in that parcel . It C . PIERSON : Roger ' s parcel . i� C . TWIGG : Just Roger ' s parcel ? C . PIERSON : Just Roger ' s , nobody else ' s , in that location . The ° County doesn ' t like the individual lot maps , the Assessment Director with Assessment doesn ' t like it because it makes it difficult to assess it . When I get , You did Mary Ellen Lane ' s Subdivision . . . C . TWIGG : She brought it in here but we never approved it . G . TOTMANz. Yes we did , it is in the minutes . We told her that'', if she would change it the way we suggested and bring in a map we would pass it contingent on those changes . I C . TWIGG : She never brought the map back in . 11 G . TOTMAN : She brought the map in last month . C . PIERSON : What you let her do was , she had 3 different ones and the County Would not accept it . She should have had the entire parcel and how she subdivided it up . George finally Page - S explained to her, that this was the way it had to be . That was the , only way the County would accept it . IL C . TWIGG : I thought that was all she owned there between the reads . C . PIERSON : She did , but she had it surveyed separately . She brought a part of it in one time and then brought another part in , she presented each one separately . What she needed was one map drawn Out on how she was subdividing it in order to file it with the County . She finally did that . I am also required . to certify that all the taxes are paid on that . Once it is approved George has to sign it ; I have to certify the taxes are paid ; then it '; goes to the assessment office , they look at it and they assign it numbers ; then from the assessment office it gees to the County Clerk ' s office where it is finally filed . C . , TWIGG : That is why they need all of that parcel . I was under the impression that all that Mary Ellen awned was in that map that she gave us . It was riot a survey map , it was one she had drawn . C . , PIERSON : She had a preliminary sketch that she drew out herself . You never asked her for the Final Flat of that and the County won ' t accept individual ones . C . TWIGG : I never saw a survey map , all I ever saw was the sketch that she had . It was my understanding that she was to 11 get the survey map and bring it in before it was approved . G : TOTMAN0 The Board approved it contingent on bringing the map in . C . TWIGG : That ' s what I mean , we approved it with the understanding that she was going to bring in the map with the changes we had suggested , G . TOTMAN : Right . C . TWIGG : So what did we do wrong ? C . PIERSON : She did not bring in the entire parcel . You should make it clear to her that is what she has to have . Not one lot here , one lot here and one lot here . You have to make it clear to her and everybody else , t C . TWIGG : I thought we did . C . PIERSON : It hasn ' t been happening . C . TWIGG : Then it shouldn ' t be approved because she didn ' t ; bring it all in . i Page - 10 I I I C . PIERSON : Okay , she brings it , I knew you have approved it contingent on presentation of the final map , and I say this is not the final map , and it isn ' t , it is only of one parcel . Aon ' t leave this up to me you should be telling her she needs one map for- the final map of the entire subdivision . V . RANKIN : Why don ' t you .just tell her to go back to the Planning Board then . C . PIERSON : You would save the a l � t of hassle b people Y telling them what they need . i C . TWIGG : We told her that night , I don ' t think there was any question , it was clear in ray mind that she had to have this and that . I B . CASOLARA : I think what Colleen is saying is that it is our � responsibility not hers . C . PIERSON : Yes . ` C . TWIGG : Why do you take the responsibility ? I C . PIERSON : Somebody has to take it . Who meets these people ? C . TWIGG : It ' s not your responsibility . You told her what she had to have , we told her what she had to have , and she didn ' t have it . C . PIERSON : What do I tell her , that I can ' t accept it and tell her to go to the Planning Board next month ? C . TWIGG : That ' s right . I B . CASOLARA : If we specifically follow the document , the ,l document specifically says before any plat of land is filed with ` the County Clerk , the plat must be approved by the Town Planning � Board according to the procedures . This is a requirement of the New York State Town Law . So under that provision , perhaps we I have not fulfilled our end of this requirement as rigorously as we should have . C . PIERSON : I just wanted to get across to you that if you ! explain it to the people so that I ' m not burdened with that . I C - r� -TWIGG . T think part _ f the problem was that she waited s �� � long . . . . G . TOTMANa I don ' t think we should belabor this any longer , in the ' end it was done right . Something like that , if there is a 11 real problem , and I don ' t really like to make people wait , but it is not unusual to tell people to go back to the Planning Board , it is their problem . I don ' t mean to scoff at what you are a Flage - 11 I saying , but if something isn ' t done right , send it back to the Y 9a 9 it 9 a Planning Board . V . RANKIN : If we make mistakes , send them back to us . G . TOTMAN : Send them back to the Board , or if there is ai problem call me . C . TWIGG : I didn ' t really understand that it was thatl, important with the County . This is good that you bring this up that this is an important factor that you have a problem with what we are doing . C . PIERSON : You don ' t because we are the ores that deal with � the people . That is the only reason I am telling you . I' G . BALLOU : I think one of the confusions is with the Minor Subdivision . There is another section in here , Section 202 . ` , that states on a Minor Subdivision that the Board MAY require a public hearing if deemed necessary . i B . CASOLARA : But . the other section seems to be contradictory because it says the Board MUST hold a public hearing . M . CAREY : ? I How do you decide which way t ��� go : I C . PIERSON : When the people come in , I charge them for a Minor Subdivision and make them aware there r+iay be a fee for a public hearing . G . TOTMAN : That is the section we have been referring to for as long a I can remember and I have been trying to find it . if 14, , there is one there that says ' shall ' then there is no question 1 about it ; but if it says ' may ' then the Board can decide . I B . CASOLARA : Section 234 says ' shall ' and Section 202 says ' up � to the Planning Board ' . i G . TOTMAN : That is one of those things for the review I process , B . CASOLARA : One of the tidying up things . i G . TOTMAN : I do know that has been there for a while , . Roger II Gleason would remember because he has been on the Board from the beginning , that we would decide , ourselves , about the impact to the Community and if it did not have a significant impact we I o + - , would 1 d not t hold 1 d a public 1 i s hearing .r+ . Ur+ �-� f -� " �-�p g e _ the reasons for that also . i s that a few years back it wasn ' t 3 lots like it is now , it I !, was any division of land was a subdivision . It was kind of Ye . . . sometimes if a farmer wanted to sell an acre of land or give an acre of land to his kid , we had to hold a public hearing to see if it was okay to do it . So we operated under that pretense for years . Page - 12 C . TWIGG : I knew it was there but I .just couldn ' t find it . 'I These are some of the things we are going to clear up in the Ordinance . M . CAREY : How would you make the decision whether to hold , the public hearing for a Minor Subdivision , are there State regulat ions ? G . TOTMAN : That ' s one of the reasons for having a Board of various intelligent people , is to be able to make a decision . IMe CAREY : Then it is our^ decision to make ? G . TOTMAN : That ' s right . And it is not unique in Groton either , other Boards make the same decisions . Be CASOLARA a George , if I could make a point here , according t this change , in the back of ray book , dated 1984 there was a revision indicated and that revision of the Miner Subdivision has that clause that ' the Board MAY have a public hearing if it is desirable ' . I suspect what happened is that was changed but the section with ' shall have a hearing ' was never deleted . G 'ei TOTMAN : The revision in 1984 that changed it from 2 to 4 to 3 to 5 is the latest law so that is the one that we have to go by . BeCASOLARA a So Section 234 was never modified to reflect that change . II ROGER GLEASONwith _ a _ - questionto _ the Board concerning _ Major _ S_► bdivision,L _ Creekside_ Division _ Iocated _ nor^th _ west _ corner_ of_ Old _ Stage_ Rd . and _ Clark _ St . _ Extensions _ Tax � Map_ No . _ 1 ` 1 - 1 - 21 . `� G . TOTMANa Roger knows that the Major Subdivision approval on the Creekside Division has expired because he did not get the final plat to the Board before the 6 month period ran Out from February 10 , 1987 when it was approved . His question tonight is . the Board gave Roger approval on that subdivision , he now wants to sell the whole parcel to one person and the new buyer is asking the Board , if nothing changes , can he , the proposed buyer get the same type of approval from the Board as Roger had ? The buyer knows he can ' t call the Board and ask if he can have the same approval that Roger had . What he is asking is for a consensus from the Board would they consider the same proposal from him as they did from Roger and give him six months to present a final plat . The buyer wants to know if the feeling of then planning Board is the same now as it was then . V . RANKINa That approval is not transferable , is it ? A new buyer has to come in and present a proposal to the Board . Rage - 13 G . TOTMAN : I don ' t know if there is anything in our law that says it is not transferable ; I am riot suggesting that it be transferable . V . RANKIN : You would go with that same type of proposal ? it G . TOTMAN : I don ' t think we can give anybody a concrete answer to that question . I think what we could do is we can say we would look at the proposal 1 that we passed last year and the season that it is riot valid anymore is because the person that . Submitted it did not follow through with it . There has been no change in the land , there are no other major developments in the area , basically the land is the same . If someone came in with the same proposal. now I as a member of the Planning Beard would consider it . B . CASOLARA : A technical point , say hypothetically Mr . Gleason was at this .juncture except that he was not going to sell it now b, ut he wanted to develop this , would we require him to go through the entire process of another hearing or Would we continue where we left off ? G'. TOTMAN : You are asking , Roger got the approval ' in February , 1987 , his option was up the first part of August , 1987 , now in June of 1988 he wants to reactivate the whole thing and comes to the planning Board and asks where do I go from here . If he asked me that , I would have told hire that probably because the Board approved the basic concept in the past and we did riot see MIuch change , that I wouldn ' t think there would be too m u c h difficUIty in getting it passed again but because the time limit was up we would have to hold another public hearing . �I B . CASOLARA : I would agree with that but then I would go one step further and say since it has already gone through the 11 approval stage I think it Would be appropriate for the new buyer to have a ' publ is hearing . Gz1 TOTMAN : Definitely , there is no question about that . The Beard will finish the process that was started and I will agree to that if everybody else does . If the Board will give a consensus that they agree there is no objection with the subdivision as originally proposed . B . CASOLARAa I think. the Board does agree on that , that there is no objection with the subdivision as originally proposed and I recommend that the Board send a letter to Mr . Gleason to that 11 effect . 11 * * * The Board is in agreement there is no objection with the subdivision as originally proposed . * * * UP:DATING AND REVISION OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE Page - 14 I • I R . GLEASONe I understand You are revisingthe Ordinance and I was wandering if I could say something . I have heard some comments from people and I had a lot to do with the Original I Board that voted this Ordinance . Previous to that we had an ordinance that was really .just a copy out of the State handbook and we ran into man problems that had to do with spot zoningand Y P such . We set Up this rather cumbersome , in some ways , ordinance i in corder to allow the Planning Board a great deal of leeway to interpret the ordinance . I hope that in your revision you do not � revert back to the ' it shall be or shall not be ' list of dos and j don ' ts that can happen on a land . I think as things evolve the present ordinance is better than the old way . `I G . TOTMANe I think Roger ' s point is a good one . Roger was One of the original Planning Board members that developed the Ordinance . One �� f the reasons we asked for a change was we � really hadn ' t worked with the Ordinance that much before and did I not realize how difficult and cumbersome it was to work with . Roger , I understand your concern but what is being done is to make the Ordinance o o o easier t _ work r k with , _ t t _n make it more e binding , but to clarify what is there . I I We started some time back as a Board working on the revision to the Ordinance . It seemed too cumbersome to include everybody on the Board so it was decided to break up into two committees . There has been quite a lot done in the meetings with Gary Wood , Bill and myself and what was done was brought back to the Board and then it was decided , because the Town Board was considering buying a computer , to put the Ordinance into a Word Processor . Then we found Out that back in 1982 the County did Put it on a computer . Bill and I went down to see Gary Evans and he furnished us with , a floppy disk copy that has our whole Ordinance on it . Then we brought back to the Planning Board the changes we had made so far and they were approved and then we l decided that it would be easier to put the present Ordinance on a Word Processor , incorporate the changes with rationale for the C changes to it and then when we were working On further% changes it would be easier to work with it . So we asked permission from the Town Board and got money granted to us to hire somebody to do that . We received a proposal back for somebody to do that . I really don ' t know , there was a question raised , how she came to the exact same dollar amount that the Town Board gave us . There was the question of what is she going to be doing for that , kind of money . The only thing I can tell you is I checked with people more knowledgeable with computers than I am and . they said 11a person who knew what they were doing would take a week to a ' week and a half to do it if they worked steady on it . As I Understand it , when that is done , then when we make changes on a per change basis you don ' t have to go back into the whole thing , you .just have to make the individual changes . The initial $ 750 dollars is a one - shot cost , the rest Of it would be on a per - shot basis . If we change ten different paints in an article and it Page - 15 is Jill i i i i conies to 2 pages or 3 pages that would have to be paid for as the changes were made . Sol the question is , the money was given to the Planning Board to spend for that purposed we found somebody to do it and the bid we got was exactly for what the Town gave us . H . CASOLARA : I can clarify that for youg if you wish . She asked me , in the Course of the discussion if she wanted to do this , I said the Town gave us $ 75 ►) to do this . So I think the framework of the development of the work was predicated on that . I think if you look at a person spending a steady week to week and a half on it , about 60 to 70 hours , it would come out to ;, about $ 10 or% $ 12 an hour . C . TWIGG : She has to do this before we can efficiently change the Ordinance ? G . TOTMAN e No , not really , we can continue what we have been doing and keep piling up paperwork . B . CASOLARA : And I think it would be beneficial and advantageous for us to do that while she is working on it because I think it will all fall into the same process . G . TOTMAN : It does make sense to me that we need to do that bUt whether this is a realistic cost or not , I don ' t know . C ', TWIGGa Bill , you understand computers and what is involved , would you say that sounds reasonable to you ? BeCASOLARAa I think there is a lot of work involved . It ' s not j Ill st a matter of putting it on the computer , it is a matter of f6lding in the ratitemale of the changes section by section and creat ing two documents , not one . One document will include the rationale for the changes and the other one would be the actual document . I would revise something due to the timeliness , it says ' to incorporate all the changes made by the Planning Board as of 5 / 20 / 88 ' I think you probably could extend that date so that if , in fact , there were other revisions that did occur , you could continue to Supply data . This letter was sent on 5 / 12 / 88 and since it wasn ' t acted on at the May 20 meeting I think you Could extend that date . It also makes a provision in here for a time limit . I think we could mutually agree to a time table to allow for the inclusion of any revisions made during that time table . C . 7WIGGe Do we have a time table figured out on this ? She talks about a ' reasonable time ' So we have to come up with a time table for her ? B . CASOLARA : When do you want it done ? You want it done by a certain date and with all the revisions up to that date included . Page - 1E V . RANKIN : Is this person available do this at any time or is I -� i o this a sideline to a regular .� _ b . g I B . CASOLARA : She is a technical report write , she does this by trade . Actually she is an Associate Professor of English at Tompkins - Cortland and she does consulting work for companies . � V . RANKIN : Are we sure the computer she uses will work on the j one -� `7 _ ne the Town purchases ? . P B . CASOLARA : In actuality , Word Perfect is an excellent program for this document . If the Town does buy another Word Processor then there is no problem in saving this document in a format I suitable for another computer . It would be saved in a generic it file . M . POST .a What is it on now ? B . CASOLARA : Word Perfect . I don ' t know what version it is but i it is compatible with the 4 . 2 version . I M . POST : So it is already on a disk ? B . CASOLARA . In the original 1984 format . . M . POSTS So this person does riot have to create an all new document ? All we are asking this person to do is to load up the current version and then make the changes with the .justifications and the rationale . B . CASOLARA : And to insure , line by line , it is identical t this one . , G . TOTMAN : We have made changes since the original version that is on the disk . M . POST : I have a problem with this , I feel we should do it Cori a cost - plus basis . Pay a person x amount an hour , whatever the rate is , instead of paying out the $ 750 . It is a back and forth process , we get the document , we change it , we send it to this person and they make a couple of changes . If we bring the document up to date with the changes to such and such a date , it means we are going to have to go back to the Town Board and ask for more money . I ' m directing my that to you , Bill , because you seem to have this figured out . 1B . CASOLARA : I think. it is the reverse , I think it is an ;; advantage to have it done for a solid figure , but I think it coUld be done either way . M . POST : This quote here says she ' ll do the revisions for a ,'' set amount . YOU can ' t speak for her , obviously . Page - 17 B : CASOLARAa I find it to be a particularly tedious task to be able to take a document on a computer , get it all printed out and then go thr^ough it line by line to make Sure every line in there agrees . M . POST : No doubt about that . B . CASOLARA : In fact , I don ' t know , personally if I was going to do this I would want it hourly , M . POST : Hourly , we would protect bath sides because there are some unknowns in there . 6 . TOTMAN : The question I have is right now it is $ 750 . If we see some changes that we want made while she is doing this , I think when we give her the acceptance , would she agree to make minor changes here or there ? M . POST : That is riot the way the quote is and that is what I am concerned about . G . TOTMAN : I know , what I ' m asking is she going to agree , when we make changes to make minor changes or is she going to ask for more money ? By charging by the hour is it going to cost more ^ than the $ 750 ? ' M . POST : The best thing from Our position , if we can get an agreement from her to take this through the whole process for li $ 7501 but then she has sortie risks on her , this could go on for years and years . What I am proposing is a fairness on both sides 11 to share that risk by giving this person and I ' m not sure it needs to be this person , we could put it out form quote and have li others look at the project and quote a price . . . . Maybe what we ought to do is goy back to this woman and ask her if she would ' do the whole .job for $ 7501 a I don ' t think she would goy for that , I wouldn ' t go for that , it is kind of open ended . B . CASOLARA0 I think part of the issue is the $ 750 which initially I think she thought it would cost a lot more and I told her this is what is available and I think she is accommodating USE Personally I think she is doing us a favor because printing this document out , which is 370k files alizine and I don ' t know how rnany pages are in the document , will take a fair � amount of t iriie and then sit down with two people and read line by line through the document to compare it and going through the revision sheets and make sure they are all incorporated into the document . I G . TOTMAN : I think _ the Ego yard has a couple of options ,ions , we can accept this quote at face value or have 2 or 3 people from the Board sit down with her and work out a rilutual agreement with what we have to spend and have the Board agree in advance that they can do that . I i F' age - 18 * * * * Several Board members commented the issue of computers was confusing to them * * * * G . TOTMAN : The only thing I know is it is inevitable that 11 everything we deal with from now On will be On a computer . C. TWIGG : Bill seems to understand about what we ' re doing , maybe Gary Be and Bill could be appointed to represent the Board in the matter . As far as you guys trying to get a decision Out of me , I don ' t understand what you are doing . I mean , I don ' t understand what it entails . M .'i, F'OST : If we accept this letter the way it is we are gI� ing to get most Of the document changed for $ 750 and it is going to cost us more money , beyond the $ 750 , to get the rest Of th "e changes done . So the issue isn ' t SO Much this person Or what ' s happening , it is the whole project . $ 750 is not going to do '! the whole project according to the text of this letter . Is that true ? Be � CASOLARA : I am hoping the $ 750 will get us to where we end !up if we say we want all the revisions included up to June or J u 1!'Iy . M . POST : The letter says the - $ 750 will get us the changes up May 20 . Be CASOLARA : Since the letter was sent in May and it is now June , we haven ' t done any revisions on the document since May , anyway . SO I think it would be realistic to , say if we want this ready to go to the Town Board by September , then we would include al l hrevisions up to maybe July , whatever the meeting was in July , be i n'g . incorporated . M . POST : We said last time that we couldn ' t make all the changes in that time frame and do we want to go to the Town Board two Or three different times until we get the final revisions ? I think we will have to ask them for more dollars to implement the revisions . i Be CASOLARA : I didn ' t see us going back to the Town Board for anymore money . M . POST : I don ' t know where it will come from then , Bill , this letter says it will cost $ 750 for the changes up to the 20th of May . Be CASOLARA : . Isn ' t it our intent to have a COMpUter here and have Carol work with it ? G . TOTMAN : After we get it on the disk . M . POST : It is already on the disk . Page - 19 i G . TOTMAN : What is on the disk is not the same as what we are wanking with . There has to be changes to bring it up to date . As I understand it the Town Board has had computer people in and at least Colleen is going to go to school . Any changes we make , she will put in , that is the way I understand it . That was the reading I got from the Town Beard . Any minor changes made , after the disk is up to date , can be put in . B . CASOLARA : What we are trying to do is define the first initial huge chunk of work that needs to be done because Colleen said they didn ' t have the time to do that . Our intent was to try and et us into the 198 �� ' s and the Town Beard i s i n the process g P of buying a computer . I ' ve talked with the Town Board members , they have locked at the Word Perfect and I have recommended that as the best thing to don ' I have talked to Colleen about it and I think that process is going ahead . So it will be a very large help to us to have that facility available since Carl Marks does � have half her time allotted to the Planning Board to be able to make changes as we go along on a monthly basis . G . TOTMAN : I think the way they work it is , half of Carol ' s time i•s charged to the Planning Board , she is Col teen ' s deputy , so when Colleen does things pertaining to planning and zoning , there is a trade off of time . So probably while Colleen is putting something into the computer for the Planning Board , Carol would be helping with her clerk work . B . CASOLARA : Am I in error on this , George ? Is that your understanding of what Would happen ? That this is a one - time shot to get this other work done then in the long run the girls in the office Would make the changes ? G . TOTMAN : That is my understanding . C . TWIGG : Bill is knowledgeable and has been working on this thing , why don ' t we give him the authority as far as this . . . . G . TOTMAN : Do you want to go with this proposal ? C . TWIGG : With the changes like Bill said and update the dates . I would be in favor of going with this proposal with the modifications of the limitations on revisions and with some kind of a time table agreed to and turn it over to Bi11 . . . . B . CASOLARA : I have all the changes and I have worked with it so I think it makes sense that I at least provide the person with the revisions and the changes and the format that I want to be able to steer towards the presentation to the Town Board . What I would like to know is when do we target it to go to the Town Board g when is the Planning Board going to see it prior to the Town Board ? At least I would hope the members of the Planning Board would like to see the finished product with the rationale to react to and make changes on it , if any , before we present it to the Town Beard . So I think we need a realistic time table to Page - ` 0 have the rough draft by Such and Such a date . There will be a cut off ,, of revisions on this date , the rough draft will be due on this date and we go to the Town Board on this date . M . CAREY : How long will it take to dizi ' something like that ? B . CASOLARA : I have no idea . C . TWIGG : He could find out when he talks to this lady , either this lady or if we find somebody else to do it . B . CASOLARA : That ' s another thing , I don ' t knew what her time table is , I know she has other projects to do G . TOTMAN : She told me when I _ called there was no problem at this time . She understood the problem that we had to wait for action by the Board . G . BALLOU : What about September for presenting it to the Town Board ? G . TOTMAN : It shouldn ' t be any later than that because she has to go back to school in September . G . BALLOU : If we had it before the September meeting to review " it and then get it to the Town Board by October or November, . C . TWIGG : In other words , if we had it back by the 1st of September we would have time to look it over before the meeting . G . TOTMAN : I think if we had it by September 1 we would have time to run copies off and distribute them . I B . CASOLARA : Why don ' t we have a letter drafted up from the Board with the conditions stated ; the cut off point for the changes would be the end of July , if there are any further changes . C . TWIGG ' : She could threw the changes in without any problem ? i G . TOTMAN : That is the purpose of this whole thing . B . CASOLARA : The rough draft form would be available or , or about the 1st �� f September . G . BALLOU : We should designate someone one as a contact for her in caseu of clarification of any provisions . I Suggest it be Bill . GARY BALLOU made the MOTION the planning Beard accept the quote of $ 750 for the project of revising the Zoning Ordinance with the condition that any changes made to the end of F' age - ` 1 July , 1588 be included in the draft ; a rough draft be presented t o the Planning Board by September 1 , 1588 ; and Bill Cass l ara be made the contact persona CECIL TWIGG seconded the motion . VOTED ALL in favor Motion carried B . CASOLARA : I want to say form the record that I think. George did a wonderful ,job with the New York State Planning Federation , I think it was an immense success and I think you should be applauded for your efforts . * * * * Board members agreed * * *.* SITE PLAN _ REVIEW proposed byNDAVID DUMONT for 757 Lick St . , Town of Groton g Tax Map No . 20 - 1 211 : CECIL TWIGG made the MOTION the Planning Bayard proceed with the Short Site Plan Review under Section 440 . 13 of the Zoning Ordinance , and move that the Planning Board approve the . proposal by DAVID DUMONT for a Trailer Storage Lot at 757 Lick St . , Town of Groton , Tax Map No . 20 - 1 - 2 . 211 9 BILL CASOLARA seconded the mot i on : VOTE : ALL in favor Motion carried SITE PLAN for an Auto Body Repair Shop proposed by GARY HENDRI X for 771 Sovocool Hill Rd . , Town of Groton , Tax Map No . 32 - 1 - 14 . 1 : V . RANKIN : I don ' t see how he can do it . For one thing You have a house down in back there and he might not like it . The � lot is not wide enough and he does riot have enough land . I C . TWIGG : The trailer is non - coriforrnling . i V . RANKIN : He talked about putting another trailer or doubleJill i wide on there . I C . TWIGG : Can you do that on a non - conforming lot ? it G . TOTMAN : The precedent was set by the ZBA that if you have a grandfather non - conforriling lot You can ' t restrict the I betterment of , it . On a non - conforming lot if you don ' t further infringe upon the rights that are already there but if you want to improve what you got , it has been passed by the ZBA before . But you can ' t make it more non -coriforrilirig . i C . TWIGG : So they could put a , smaller trailer in ? Page - 2 ` G . TOTMAN : I would say they could put a bigger trailer in as long as they didn ' t get any closer to the side lot lines . C . TWIGG : How can they do that ? G . TOTMAN : Putt ing it in the other way . He has a 100 foot Iot and over 400 feet deep . But that is riot our problem . It would be my recommendation that the Board do some homework. can this . It is a non - corifc arming lot , he wants to add to a non - conforming building that is too close to the sideline . Be CASOLARA : Are those issues we should be concerned with ? Aren ' t they ZBA issues ? We are dealing with whether or riot he can have a Body Shop . G . TOTMAN : You are right to a point , but the other thing is I don ' t want to lead him dawn the wrong path , either . I think the Beard should do some homework and get these answered before we made a decision . G . HALL000 I don ' t think the information can the map tells us enough either . It does not show the Surrounding property . C . TWIGG : I He is using someone else ' s driveway to get in there . V . RANKIN : The gLiy says it is alright for now , sooner or . later they may have a falling Out or he might sell it . C . TWIGG : Then he is going to have to make a driveway somewhere else . Be TOTMANan The Board will study it further before any action is taken . I will contact Mr . Hendrix and let him knew the Beard has a problem with it . It will be can the agenda for the month of July , 198'8 . VERL RANKIN made the MOTION the meeting be adjourned ; CECIL TWIGG seconded the motion . ALL in favor . MOTION CARRIED . The next regular meeting to the Planning Board will be ThUrsday , i1, July 219 1988 at 8 : 00 p . m . Respectfully submitted , ar � et A . Palmer �arlo of coo; J V : 4 The Town Boardfi 4� ERECTED Town of Groton Of� ssE A +�+t C0 6 *1 101 Conger Boulevard Groton , N . Y . 13073 Reg,lular Planning Board meeting to be held Thursday , June 16 , 1988 at 8 : 00 P . M . 1 ) Approve minutes of May 19th meeting 2 ) Site Plan Review - David DuMont 3 ) Site Plan Review - Gary Hendrix 4 ) Decide course of action for updating Zoning Ordinance A 9 g for as far as we have come ( see attached letter ; . . 5 ) Any other business to come before the meeting 6 ) Adjournment George Totman Chairman