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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1987-10-01 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Thursday , October 1 , 1987 BOARD . .' ( *present ) George Totman* , Chairman Michael Post* , Vice Chairman Nancy Ostrander , Cor , secretary Cecil Twigg* Monica Carey* Verl Rankin* Bill Casolara APPLICATION OF ROBERT and MARGARET KLUGE for a Major Subdivision of Parcel 17 - 1 -26 . 1 located on the northeast corner of Clark St . Ext . and Salt Rd . , Town of Groton : After due discussion of the above appliation and finding no abject reasons for denying the application , M . POST made the motion the Planning Board approve the application of ROBERT and MARGARET KLUGE for a Major Subdivision of Parcel 17- 1 -26 . 1 consiting of five lots with a minimum lot size of nine acres located in an agricultural zone on the northeast corner of Clrk Street Extension and Salt Road in the Town of Groton , to wit : 1 . Parcel #1 consists .� of a 4 BR home , 18 ' x 27 ' Morton building & large 2' story barn w/approximately 15 acres ; road frontage of 450 ' on Clark St . Ext . 2 . Parcel #2 consists of approximately 15 acres w/road frontage of 450 ' on Clark St . Ext . 3 . Parcel #3 consists of approximately 9 acres w/road frontage of 510 ' on Clark St . Ext . and 569 . 5 ' on Salt Rd . 4 . Parcel #4 consists of approximately 9 acres w/road frontage of 569 . 5 ' on Salt Road , 5 . 44 acre section of land sold by Kluge to Roberts w/approximately 700 ' road frontage on Clark St . Ext . Motion was seconded by C . TWIGG . VOTE : All in favor Motion carried Respectfully , TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing , Thursday , October 1 , 1987 , 800 p . m . Application of ROBERT and MARGARET KLUGE for Major Subdivisiontlof Parcel No . 17- 1 - 26 . 1 on the northeast corner of Clark Street Extension and Salt Road . d . BOARD ( *present ) PUBLIC present George Totman* , Chairman Gary Wood , Zoning Enforcement Michael Post* , Vice Chairman Officer Nancy Ostrander , Core secretary Glenn Munson , Munson Realty Cecil Twigg* Herbert & Gena Adams , Clark St . Ext . Monica Carey* Ralph & Leona Cummings , Cortland , NY Verl Rankin* Jeffery & Elizabeth Trescot , Clark Bill Casolara St . Ext . Robert & Ruth McFadden , Salt Rd . Stanley & Fran Gamel , Salt Rd . G . TOTMAN , Chairman , opened the Public hearing at 800 p . m . with the reading of the Public Notice published September 18 , 1987 : NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN , that pursuant to Section 245 of the Town of Groton Land Use and Development Code , a public hearing will be held by the Planning Board of the Town of Groton , Tompkins County , New York , on Thursday , October 1 , 1987 at 800 p . m . at the Town Hall , 101 Conger Boulevard , for the purpose of considering the application of Robert and Margaret Kluge for the approval of a Major Subdivision of Parcel 17- 1 - 26 . 1 consisting of five lots with a minimum lot size of nine acres . Said premises are located in an agricultural zone on the northeast corner of Clark Street Extension and Salt Road . All parties interested and citizens will be given an opportunity to be heard in respect to such proposed application . Persons may appear in person or by agent . George L . Totman , Chairman Town of Groton Planning Board G . TOTMAN : Would anybody like to know more about or hear the presentation from the representative of the sellers ? H . ADAMSf I would like to from the representative of the sellers . I ' d like to know how they could do it prior to approval . G . TOTMAN : I will have the representative explain what the proposal is then I will address the second question . G . MUNSON : The proposal is : at the present time the Tsx Map consists of roughly 92 . 56 acres . Mr . Kluge , previous to the auction , sold PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing - 2- October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge off 44 acres to Roberts . He contracted with us to sell the balance of the property at public auction . The parcel was divided into a total of 4 parcels of the balance of the property that was not sold to Roberts . Parcel No . 1 consisted of the home , the MOrton building , a 2 - story barn with approximately 15 acres with road frontage of 450 feet on Clark St . Ext . ; Parcel 2 consists of 15 acreswhich was all tillable and that was located to the east ' of Parcel No . 1oalso with 450 feet road frontage ; Parcel No . 3 was 9 acres that had road frontage of 510 feet on Clark St . Ext . and 569 . 5 on the Salt Rd . ; further north of that parcel is Parcel No . 4 which is approximately 9 acres with road frontage of 569 . 5 feet on the Salt Rd . That is how we come to this here . As agents of Mr . Kluge we are requesting Major Subdivision approval . H . ADAMS : I know how it was broke up , now I want to know how it was broke up before subdivision approval . G . TOTMAN : When you sell land at an auction , even though you have it sub- divided=`:.into parcels , it could have been broken down into 10 or 15 parcels which some towns do , to sell , when a person wants to buy something they can set their own lot sizes by buying more than one parcel , as long as all the lots conform to the Zoning Ordinance . In this particular transaction they elected to keep the parcels large , even though by so doing they still were not certain whether one or more persons were going to buy the lots all together or to buy 2 bordering each other or whatever . So obviously , you can ' t apply for a subdivision on paper and have it approved without knowing what the boundary lines are to . the lots . What happened in this particular case , and it is not unique , the agents for Mr . Kluge came to the Planning Board and laid out the proposal showing what they had in mind and explained that from the surface and the way it looked , the way it was being drawn up if sold that way would it meet tentative approval , this is called a preliminary plat . From that , if nothing was changed , according to the Ordinance you couldn ' t find anything wrong with it . They told the Planning Board ahead PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing =3- October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge of time , went ahead with the sale and told everybody bidding at the sale ' if you buy one of these parcels of land , the sale is contingent upon approval of the Planning Board . ' Nobody can get a deed from that sale until a public hearing is held and the Planning Board either accepts or rejects the proposal . In this case tonight , if for some unknown reason , we decided to reject it then all the sales of that parcel are null and void . So it was not done without having a meeting . E . TRESCOTT : So this meeting is just a formality , there isn ' t anything that can stop this ? G . TOTMAN : This meeting is . . �: , : there are gthree:-' different kinds of sub - divisions that people can ask for . You can ask for a minor subdivision with smaller amount of lots and the Planning Board can opt to either have a public hearing or not depending on how it is going to effect the environment or the neighborhood ; or a seller can elect to keep the lots large enough with so many acres and he doesn ' t go over a certain number of lots it can be declared a rural agricultural subdivision and there would beno need for a public hearing on that ; but when it gets up to S lots by law a public hearing has to be called and all the adjoining lot owners are notified that this is happening so they can.,-. express their feelings . But sometimes when this kind of a sale happens , there might be a development coming in or somebody wants to put up 30 to 40 homes or maybe an industry , you never know until that happens . The law was written up that if somebody goes into a neighborhood because of its nature and they want to keep it that way , by the nature of what is written in the Zoning Ordinance we hold a public hearing , that is a State law also . In this particular case I understand that all the lots are huge lots and they are tentatively sold to different individuals . From this public hear°in ' thei ou or p g ��a�ining Board is going to learn what the proposed buyers are going to be doing with those lots because anybody can buy a piece of land and they don ' t have to tell you ahead of time what they are going to do on it . When they decide to do something on it then they have to apply for a permit . PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing -� October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge S . GAMEL : I think what we are concerned about is with the lot sizes we don ' t know how it is zoned . If it is an agricultural zone does this mean that each individual building lot there has to be 40 , 000 square feet ? ? Is that the size of the lot you have to have for a single home ? G . TOTMAN : An acre . S . GAMEL : In other words , how much road frontage do you have to have for each building? G . TOTMAN : 200 feet . S . GAMEL : So it is zoned so you can put individual housesen>on there with 200 foot frontage ? G . TOTMAN : That ' s right . S . GAMEL : On any one of those lots ? G . TOTMAN : Right . S . GAMEL : Supposing person wanted to put a trailer park in there or something , it is zoned against that , right ? G . TOTMAN : No . S . GAMEL : It is not zoned against a trailer park ? ? G . TOTMAN : No . S . GAMEL : In an agricultural district , when you put in industry or apartments or anything you have to get a zoning permit ? G . TOTMAN : As I un derstand what we are doing , anytime somebody does something with any of those parcels of land they will have to come back and ask for a permit to do whatever they want to do . If they want to put a trailer park on there , then they have to go through all the legal red tape of applying for a trailer park permit , meeting all the state laws , health department laws and all that sort of thing . You can ' t automatically put a trailer park on there just because you have the land . S . GAMEL : I was wondering how it was zoned according to something like that . I don ' t think anybody is worried about individual houses with 200 foot lots . But people don ' t understand , and I don ' t thing I do , if somebody bought nine acres and wanted to go in and put a trailer park in or something , they have the right to do this ? G . TOTMAN : They have just as much right now as they had before , that doesn ' t change . My first reaction to that is if somebody had in mind PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge to putting a trailer park in the danger was more before because as it is now the lots are smaller . If I was going to buy land to develop a trailer park I would probably have bought 2 parcels of land to have enough room for the sewer and such because without having public sewer the health department is very tight on their regulations . Over in McLean they have to have 3 to 4 acres for just the lagoons . Are there any other questions ? ? R . McFADDEN : This meeting is mainly to find out if you can sell the separate parcels ? G . TOTMAN : No , this meeting is for information only , to hear from the adjacent landowners and for people to express their opinions . J . TRESCOWa I have a problem with the drainage of the corner lot on Clark St . and Salt Rd . I live across the street on the northwest corner . The water drains out of the fields to the north of me through a pipe under the road onto that land across the street . If they are going to put a driveway or do anything to change the lay of land I am going to have a two foot pond in my yard . G . TOTMAN : You mean the water comes from your land and Cummings to across the street ? J . TRESCOT : Ye's . R . MCFADDEN : I live on the southeast corner and there is a lot of water in that ditch every spring . J . TRESCOTi' t The water drains through this drainage pipe into that field . If they start changing the land it will create a mess . G . TOTMAN : They are divided into nine acre plus lots and if they are going to only put houses on that and not ask to divide it up more , you have a 500 foot frontage on there , one house in 3 to 400 feet isn ' t going to make a lot of difference . J . TRESCOT : What protection do I have that they aren ' t going to screw up the drainage . This is to approve or disapprove the subdivision , but if somebody puts in just one house depending on how they grade it and put the driveway in can change the drainage . G . TOTMAN : When they put a driveway in they have to get the highway department ' s approval for the size of the sluiceway PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing OCtober 1 , 1987 R . Kluge C . TWIGG : they can ' t just stop the water from flowing . J . TRESCOT : The middle of those lots are mud . In the spring tractors get stuck in there all the time . G . TOTMAN : You ' re assuming if they are going to develop it into something . J . TRESCOT : Yes . I ' m assuming if somebody buys something like that they are going to do something with it . G . TOTMAN : Some people buy land like that just for investment purposes too . S . GAMEL : The way that is set up with 500 foot frontage with 2 lots on Salt Rd . that would allow 4 houses without a variance . You said you need 200 foot frontage for each home , the second lot had 500 and some feet so that would allow 2 houses on the corner , then it goesraround the corner and has frontage on both roads does that change the 200 foot frontage on one road or not ? What I am getting at is there more than 4 building lots there if these guys want to subdivide ? G . TOTMAN : Each lot has to have it ' s own frontage . If somebody puts one on the corner and their land goes 200 feet, the next person down also has to have 200 foot frontage . S . GAMEL : So the guy on the corner would have to have 200 foot frontage on each road ? G . TOTMAN : Not necessarily . If he didn ' t take the 200 foot deep , he has to have 150 foot radius for the Health Department then his total square footage has to equal an acre . Does that answer your question? S . GAMEL : Not really . I understand on a straight frontage , no matter how deep it is you have to have 200 foot frontage but when you get a corner lot that ' s what I am wondering there how do you figure that out ? V . RANKIN : The lot has to be at least 150 feet deep . S . GAMEL : So he could have 200 foot on one road and 150 on the other . G . WOOD : No you couldn ' t . You still need to maintain an acre . You have 200 foot of frontage then you need about 210 foot deep . J . TRESCOT : So on that 9 acres they couldn ' t put more than 3 houses ? PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing - October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge G . TOTMAN : Depending on the frontage . J . TRESCOT : With 500 plus on one road and 500 plus on the other , you divide that and that gives you 250 and 250 . . . . . . C . TWIGGv . They couldn ' t put more than 4 . G . TOTMAN : You have 500 foot frontage that ' s only 2 houses . J . TRESCOT : You have 500 foot on the corner , 200 has to be taken up by the first house ; that leaves 300 leftton one road and 300 left on the other road . G . TOTMAN : If they are situated that way . The one you are talking about then is Parcel No - 3 which abuts next to Gordon Rood . G . MUNSON ,* Parcel No . 3 has 569 . 5 feet on the Salt Rd . and 510 feet on Clark St . Ext . J . TRESCOT : So you can get 3 housesc�on that parcel . H . ADAMS : Four , 2 on each road . G . TOTMAN : On Clark St . Ext . he has 510 feet and 569 on Salt Rd . If he starts on Salt Rd . and goes up 2 parcels and then he goes down Clark St . and uses the bare minimum of 150 feet he has room for 2 houses , so if you read it that way there is room for 4 houses on the corner lot . G . WOOD : He would need subdivision approval for that . G . TOTMAN : If that person wanted to do that he would have to resubmit becasue now he has a parcel of land he wants to break up . J . TRESCOT : Can he break it up at all without applying for a subdivision? G . TOTMAN : Yes , he can break it in two without a subdivision . C . TWIGG : He can sell one and keep one . R . McFADDEN : How close can they build to that pipeline ? Is there anything in the zoning about that ? Can they count on that land with the gas pipeline on it ? It runs through the corner lot back about 3 to 400 feet . G . WOOD : The answer is there is nothing in theRzoning . What will control that is the ' easment that the gas companies take . That would show up in the surveys . G . MUNSON : The surveys are not completed at this time . G . TOTMAN : If there are easements they are automatically transferred from deed to deed . PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing -$- October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge 5;"i,GAMEL : I ' m sure they can get houses up through there , it goes kitty- corner right up through both those lots . G . TOTMAN : We can ' t control that . Whatever easments are made they are automatically put into their deed restrictions . McFADDEN0 I ;: was wondering why it wasn ' t listed on the maps so people would know about it . People might buy the property and not even know the pipeline went through there . G . TOTMAN : Yes , they would . Before they make the transaction it would come out when their lawyer researched the deed , even if nobody told them it was there . Those restrictions on the deed last forever unless the guy that put them on there takes them off . If I put a restriction on the need when I sell a parcel of land that there will be no trailers on it and I die , that ' s it , there will never be any trailers on that lot . ,S . GAMEL : Speaking of trailers , they have to have the same foundation for a trailer as they do a house , right ? G . TOTMAN : For all practical purposes ;: our Ordinances in our Town deal with a dwelling unit as a dwelling unit . There is a little bit different criterias ; like for a house it is solid on a foundation where a mobile home is brought in we require skirting around it and things like that to make it more permanent . Other than little things like that , they are all classified as a dwelling unit . S . GAMEL : They require the same size lot ? G . TOTMAN : Yes . S . GAMEL : And you have to have a water and septic system . G . TOTMAN : Yes . PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing - October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge S . GAMEL : On a permanent foundation? G . TOTMAN : Yes . R . McFADDEN : Is there a possibility that "m41ti R"l apartments could be put in there ? That ground is pretty damp up there for any weight of any kind . G . TOTMAN : Don ' t you think if anybody decides to build something of that nature they would have the ground tested first ? R . McFADDEN : I think what we :. areAconcerned with , is I am not sure whether the person who bought the main farm owns a trailer park or not . J . TRESCOT : The one who bouth the corner lot , parcel one and parcel two owns a trailer park in Homer . G . NIUNSON : There were four individual buyers . Noone bought two parcels . L . TRESCOT : The person who bought the lot directly across the road from us owns a trailer park already . I would not be bothered if an individual had bought the lot across the road for the purpose of building a house , I would not be upset . If this subdivision is very easy to obtain , a future subdivision is going to be very easy to obtain . G . TOTMAN : The larger subdivisions are the easier ones , when you are dealing with 9 acres like that with no proposed function to be developed on the land . When you get down to where they are smaller lots , like these people , if they want to subdivide , then it becomes a little more serious and involved . L . TRESCOT : As long as they adhere to certain specifications there is no problem , right ? G . TOTMAN : The specifications have been there since 1972 . PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge G . MUNSON : The reason that we make it big , the parcels large , in rural tracks is because we don ' t want to go in there and make out 18 separate building lots so it will influence some developer to come in and his thing . Peopletcan still have their dreams and build whatever they want to and still have room to run around . If they want to sell off part of the lot in order to get back some of their cost , more power to them . What we are trying to do is make that lot more attractive to more potential buyers and get the best price possible for the people we work for . L . TRESCOT : The people who bought these lots are not the people who are going to build their homes on these lots ': G . MUNSON ! The people who bought these lots , you have the Planning Board , the Zoning Enforcement Officer who you can filter your concerns to them when they come in with their specific purposes . Our purpose is , we have to assign some number of acres to each parcel . This way we came up with the formula by looking at the mapaand there would be map it out . There was a good chance/maybe only one or two purchasers , in this case there were four . If they want to divide further they must come before the Zoning Officer or the Planning Board to get their ' s approved , as we did . G . TOTMAN : Are there any other questions or comments to be made ? S . GAMEL : I don ' t think anybody here has any objections to individuals houses going on there or trailers either . What we want to know , I guess , is if a person decided to put a trailer park there , do PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge we have any say in the thing , do they have to get a zoning variance or do they have ah.perfect right to go ahead and do it . G . TOTMAN : If somebody wanted to take a parcel of land and propose a trailer park you have the same opportunity then that you have now . This Board can ' t answer that question totally because we have no idea what is going to happen to those parcels . And if , in fact , I bought one of those and I was proposing a trailer park and I hadn ' t told the Board yet , they wouldn ' t know . If somebody wants to come in and put three trailers on there and call it a park ; some person might want to come in and look at it and sayE;with all those acres I might want to put in 15 or 20 trailers . S . GAMEL : What size lot do you have to have per. tra /iler? G . WOOD : You are talking about a mobile home park . 11�) G . TOTMAN : You can have seven per acre . S . GAMEL : So you have a nine acre parcel , so that means you could have a big trailer park if you wanted it ? C . TWIGG : Only if you meet the criteria . G . TOTMAN : If you have a nine acre parcel you have to have Room for roads , and sewer and drainage . I ' m sure if you ' re talking about all that land up there being wet , you automatically would have a Health Department problem right there . S . GAMEL : I ' m sure a builder , if he knew anything about it , could go in there and grade that land and drain it . H . ADAMS : That land can ' t be drained . My father tried for a long time it just won ' t be drained . G . TOTMAN : The first thing we would tell a person who came to use would be PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing - U01 October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge to go to the Health Department first and make your proposal to them and have the Health Department do their test borings and give us their statement as to what they think is viable for that land . L . CUMMINGS : So the Health Department would know whether the land on the other side would drain right . G . TOTMAN : Right . Gary , Do you have anything to add ? G . WOOD : I have nothing further to add . G . TOTMAN : Does anybody else have any further questions/ R . McFADDEN : In other words , as a result of this meeting these lots can be sold legally and everything finished up? G . TOTMAN : Right now , as things have worked in the past and the way the good book says , you have the public hearing and then you close the hearing and the Planning Bcard has 45 days to look into any problems that might have cropped up or things that might have cropped up that we didn ' t know about or anything pertaining to the development of the land . After this hearing is over they have 45 days to act on it either pro or con . Unless nolrireal major development comes up , there would be no need to hold another public hearing . S . GAMEL : Just what does zoned agricultural mean as far as building is concerned? G . TOTMAN : There isn ' t a lot of difference in being zoned agricultural , rural or industrial . In the whole town you have to have an acre of land . The difference between agricultural , low density I PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing - 1 - October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge and high density is some of the things you can put on that land . For instance , in some of the zones you can put a gas station in and some of them you can ' t . S . GAMEL : That ' s what I ' m getting at , the density problem . G . TOTMAN : I can tell you from the book what is not allowed in an agricultural district . R . McFADDEN : Is there any thinking involved locally about losing agricultural land? G . TOTMAN : There is always that thought . R . McFADDEN : It ' s like taking the trees from the forests . You keep taking it out and all of a sudden there is no more forest . Is there any thoughts of losing too much agricultural land? G , TOTMAN : Let me answer it this way . Suppose you owned five hundred acres of agricultural land in this town and we have this book that tells us what we can pass and what we can reject in classifications , agricultural , low density , etc . ; and we say to you we are going to try to keep 30 per cent of the Town agricultural and we ' re sorry you own 500 acres but you can only sell 20 per cent of your land because we don ' t want you to get rid of the agricultural land . We can ' t do that , we have to look at the whole picture but we canyt deny you use of your land . Rural Agriculture - I think the best thingl,:to do would be to look through the zoning book . C . TWIGG : ' There is nothing not allowed in a rural agricultural district . R . MCFADDEN : They could put a gas station in there ? C . TWIGG : Yes , with approval . PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing - 1 October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge G . TOTMAN : We are willing to listen and record anything anybody has to say , but if there is nothing more . . . . R . MCFADDEN : I really learned something when I found out you could put any- thing up there . I assumed agricultural meant agricultural . G . TOTMAN : Nat necessarily , it requires approval . No matter what is built , has to have an application for a permit . J . TRESCOT : You will send letters out if and when that happens ? G . TOTMAN : Yes , let me clarify that , only if they ask for a subdivision not for an individual house . J . TRESCOT : If somebody wants to put an individual house up there they can without a public hearing ; but if somebody wants to put a trailer park in and subd11v1d67, the property further , letters will be sent out ? G . TOTMAN Yes , if it is something that requires a public hearing . A single family home would not require a public hearing , even if somebody wants to put up a Morton building and rent out storage space or something of that nature or if wanted to take that land and divide it into 3 parcels and sell it he would have to have a public hearing . J . TRESCOT : At what point , how far can he expand before the neighbors are notified? G . WOOD : Only the division of propety , basically , or one of those things that require a special use permit such as mobile home parks , junkyards , motor vehicle repair shops , any business , G . TOTMAN : They all don ' t require a public hearing , he is looking for things that the neighbors would be notified on for a public hearing . PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing - 1, - October 1 , 1987 R . Kluge G . WOOD : Let me digress a bit , supposing a contractor wants to set up a yard and shop he has to have a site plan review , does that require a public hearing? G . TOTMAN : The Planning Board can decide that . I explained earlier what the Planning Board looks into , the environmental impact on the area before the decision of a public hearing . G . WOOD : His question was , what activities could be undertaken without a public hearing . G . TOTMAN : For example , up in West Groton a fellow applied for a subdivision of 4 parcels of land , we could have gone the whole route with a public hearing but we looked at it . He owns the house that is near the property , down the road on the corner where the lots end there is one place and there was noting else in the whole area , we decided there was a low impact on the neighborhood and did not hold a public hearing . If there had been houses all around the parcels , the Board would have held a public:. hearing . Those are decisions the Boardccan make . But when it comes to a certain number in a subdivision , we don ' t make the decision for a public hearing , it is already made for us . C . TWIGG : We have to make sure they meet the Zoning requirements . If he does we have to approve it . G . TOTMAN : If there are no further questions or comments I will close the public hearing . I , MARGARET A . PALMER , DO CERTIFY that at a Public Hearing considering the applicate ofROBER AND MARGARET KLUGE for a Major Subdivision of Parcel 1 ? - 1 -26 - 1 Clark St . Ext . and Salt Rd . in the Town of Groton held Thursday , October 1 , 1987 at 101 - i Conger Blvd , Town of Groton , I did take the minutes of said hearing and the foregoing is a true and exact copy of said hering , to the best of my ability . C��21U X 7 d �- � F , F