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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1987-07-21 t TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Tuesday , July 21 , 1987 BOARD ( %%present ) PUBLIC PRESENT e�George. Totman , Chairman Gary Wood , Zoning Enforcement Mike Post , Vice Chairman Officer Nancy Ostrander , Cor . Secretary William Swearingen -; Cecil Twigg - Phil Munson w%Verl Rankin -cMonica Carey -, Bill Casolara SITE PLAN REVIEW : William Swearingen , West Groton Road , Tax Map No . 22 - 1 - 8 . 2 Used Car Dealership , TOTMAN : Mr . Swearingen , would you like to explain to us what you have in mind , what the land is being used for and what you propose to do with it ? SWEARINGEN : I don ' t intend to change the land or what is existing already or build more buildings . I want to get a dealer ' s license so I can purchase automobiles out of the state and bring them back and sell them to the public . I am not looking for a big dealership or a huge car lot . It is for my personal use and to sell a few vehicles to save the expense of the sales tax and registration of vehicles for resale , it would be less expensive . TOTMAN0 You are not planning on doing this for a regular living ? SWEARINGEN : Yes , it ' s not for supporting any others but myself , I ' m not going to be hiring other employees . TWIGG : In otherwords , you are not expanding much ? SWEARINGEN : No , not at all . I am just trying to take some of the pressure off me , instead of having to go through the red tape of assigning the vehicles to myself , waiting 5 to 6 weeks for the title to come back , paying the sales tax when I purchase the car and sales tax when I sell the car . . Either way it is taken out of the profit . I probably do six to eight cars a year and I would like to do a little more than this . Say somebody wants a certain car , I go to an auction and buy the car for them with the license it would only have one registration and one sales tax and one title . I ' m not looking at eight or ten cars on the front lawn . TOTMAN : You are not looking to do repair work ? SWEARINGEN : No . TOTMAN0 You know what junkyards look like , you are not planning to have cars setting around without registrations ? 1 PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 2 - July 21 , 1987 SWEARINGEN : No , just ones I have buyers for . TWIGG : That ' s about what you are doing now ? SWEARINGEN : Right , I have one or two to sell , I have been doing that for several years I would like to do it a little more easier and save money, what with putting out for sales tax and title fees . If you have dealers plates its a lot easier and saves a lot of red tape . You can buy and sell a lot easier on a dealer plates . TWIGG : What you are saying is you have to satisfy the Town ' s zoing ordinance before you can get this license ? SWEARINGEN : Right , I have all the paperwork for it and this is the number one step . I believe it is zoned for agricultural now and I do ' know other people have repair shops in the country in the Town of Groton and I am not sure they have dealer ' s licenses . CASOLARA : You would need to put up a sign ? SWEARINGEN : I would need a small sign , yes . CASOLARA : Will there be any fuel tanks involved on the property / SWEARINGEN : No WOOD : Would there be any cars at all on display ? SWEARINGEN : Possibly 2 or 3 . I am not going to make a driveway out of my front lawn . TWIGG : You don ' t repair any of these ? SWEARINGEN : Just my own vehicles . TWIGG : Some of these vehicles you bring in have to have some work done on them ? SWEARINGEN : Some body work or minor repairs , no major repair work . WOOD : You are not planning on a vehicle repair shop ? SWEARINGEN : No . TWIGG : That is not a very extensive operation now , he is not figuring to expand . It is not offensive the way it is now . CASOLARA : I think we have to look at the longer term application . For instance , business is good now with 2 or 3 cars but say in a year from now he has 20 cars there . There ' s the possiblity of saying ' okay , go ahead have a dealership in that area ' and without restricting it to 3 or 4 nothing says that he couldn ' t sell it to somebody else and the next thing you know you have 30 to 40 cars there . PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 3 - July 21 , 1987 SWEARINGEN : The new guy can ' t take my license , he would need a new license and application . CASOLARA : It still doesn ' t prevent you from possibly expanding and. putting in 30 to 40 cars there . WOOD : Unless that is a condition of your permit . TWIGG : It is not a bunch of junk cars with weeds growing up around them . They are something that move , they are back off the road , not on the edge of it . TOTMAN0 Do you know how the sign ordinance reads ? SWEARINGEN : No , I ' m not really familiar with it . It has to be visible from the road . TOTMAN ; I ' m talking about as it relates to the Town Ordinance . The size of the sign has to have a certain limit to it . WOOD : I think he is referring to the DMV regulations for signs . SWEARINGEN : I don ' t want to put a billboard up . TOTMAN : My point is. , it is not what the DMV regulations say about signs , it is what the Town of Groton says that you have to go by . You haven ' t looked into that yet ? SWEARINGEN : No , I haven ' t. It is in the pamphlet with business names and regulations . TOTMAN : Gary , do you have . any input ? WOOD : No . TOTMAN : Have you seen what he has now ? WOOD : No . TOTMAN ; Cecil have you seen it ? TtdIGG : Yes . TOTMAN : Verl , have you seen it ? RANKING No . CAREYG I ' ve seen it . TWIGG : You would not notice it if you are not looking for it . e ............. PLANNING BOARD meeting SWEARINGEN ; If The ca .s are at least 2 July 21 , 1987 � TOTMAN : _ 00 feet . Let me underst from the road the public and what are you is ho g Pe o You are saying , I and I want to do it on will drive by and u are doing busi Ind there ' s to sign a car and i fcontact basis ? see Like e cars and ebuyss rorh going t0 gn there t YOur , know you are hat says , SWtar nen ' t Parkodibe in McLean i SWEARINGEN : most selling cars ? gen s Use Y the road st = d Cars ' how am Out ° f them w be the by the road . . 111 advertised Moravia Sho d ° a, lot of advertisingIvery seldom have TOTMAN ; Shopper , Gc The adver in fromy0uthis Board says advertisements sell most f m °n Shopper and tO ' get the Okay g0 a Y cars . WOOD : head , the Yes , the Proper sign ? n he has t0 first thing is a S get approval TOTMAN : When we signpedal p with and say this Perm , which comes from You . a You , WOOD ; is is okay , then for the sign h Right ' e will check TOTMAN : Therd 'nance on signs Tatagxe� a says 2 signs can be Sect • �x �x �cx.......x,aa$ no more than 90 s hearing , 440 . 4 ; second �rahx square feet g , it Para TWIGG ; is the graph , we may h Board ' s decision , y Or I don ' t b ma not have believe there a public CASOLARA : I don is _ a significant ironme tank . . , t see anythi env ng unless t ntal impact he changing of in here ' RANKIN ; We should . it oil or having SWEARINGEN • I donut Put a lim ' on how many cars On g a fuel . r downnthe looking do hf rbi g of a volume , I on the property , Ibe 2 to re and Plan On living the rest Of go to Florida 3 Years or building there my life here , in the winters MAN . I o TOT Do You maybe 8 Years , . I don , I don ' t know maybe 3 acres the usedloil7n having a fuel to t know . ma it would rSWEARINGEN ; I don ' t have tank on your premises and what about J TO.TMAN : On a fuel tank and a e b the question nd w urn our live with ? vast_ - oil : , of how many cars allowed , what SWEARINGEN ; I ProbablyI haven ' do You think you could CASOLARA ; We t had more than smalln tWhatwantato prohibit you n five at one time in the bout g from doin last years , or 10 ? g business but I want to keep it PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 7 - July 21 , 1987 MUNSON : I ' ll just move the creek . RANKIN : This end lot is already established . Should he go with four others besides that ? CASOLARA ; It was one piece and he is dividing it up . RANKIN : You would make 3 bigger ones then ? MUNSON , No , just leave it the way they are and go . with a major . I ' m selling these four here and keeping the big one on the end with the farm . TOTMAN : You have gone back to the 200 foot frontage ? MUNSON : Yes , 200 by 220 feet , leaving the strip in the back . TOTMAN : What you are asking for , is to resubmit it and go to a Major Subdivision for 5 lots with 200 foot frontage and an acre of land ? MUNSON : Yes . TOTMAN I see no problem with that . Does everybody understand what he is saying now ? Board in agreement . Gary , any comments or problems ? WOOD ; No . TOTMAN : I think he is right , he should have done that the first time . If you resubmit it for a Major , we meet the third Tuesday of the month , you can come back with the full plans then . MUNSON : Do I have to sell all of it within a 2 year period or one year or six months ? WOOD : No , once it is approved it is approved . You have 180 days to file it with the County Clerk as a Major Subdivision . TOTMAN : One of the plats you prepare goes to the County Clerk , CASOLARA ; A Minor Sub -Division is 3 to 5 lots with one or more ixoxxmoxa less than 5 acres . Why does he have to go with a Major ? TOTMAN : What Bill is looking at. was changed in pencil , Local Law No . 1 - 1984 . As I see it , you resubmit it , including all the lots the way you want them . It is a rural area with not a lot of neighbors and they are all at least one acre lots . My suggestion would be-, get that done and submit it ten days before the meeting for Gary or me to look at to see if you ' re going in the right direction . 1 ' PLANNING BOARD meeting - 4 - July 21 , 1987 SWEARINGEN ; The cars are at least 200 feet from the road . TOTMAN : Let me understand what you are saying . You are doing business with the public hoping people will drive by and see the - cars and buy or are you going to do it on a contact basis ? Like , I live in McLean and I want to buy a car and if your cars aren ' t parked by the road and there ' s a sign there . that says ' Swearingen ' s Used Cars ' how am I going to know you are selling cars ? SWEARINGEN : Most of them will be advertised . I very seldom have to put then , out by the road . . I do a. lot of advertising in the Groton Shopper and the Moravia Shopper . The advertisements sell most of my cars . TOTMAN ; . Gary , If this Board says okay go ahead , then he has to get approval from you to get the proper sign ? WOOD : Yes , the first thing is a Special Permit which comes from you . TOTMAN : When we sign and say this is okay , then for the sign he will check with you . WOOD : Right . TOTMAN : The ordinance on signs says 2 signs can be no more than 90 square feet total . Section 440 . 4 , second paragraph , we may or may not have a public hearing , it is the Board ' s decision . TWIGG ; I don ' t believe there is a significant environmental impact here . CASOLARAo I • don ' t see anything unless the changing of oil or having a fuel tank . RANKIN ; We should . put a limit on how many cars on on the property . SWEARINGEN : I don ' t do that big of a volume . I go to Florida in the winters I ' m not looking for living the rest of my life here . I own 3 acres down there and plan on building there . I don ' t know maybe it would be 2 to 3 years or maybe 8 years , I don ' t know . TOTMAN : Do you plan on having a fuel tank on your premises and what about the used oil ? SWEARINGEN : I don ' t have a fuel tank and and we burn our . wast. _ oil : , . TOTMAN ; On the question of how many cars allowed , what do you think you could live with ? SWEARINGEN : I probably haven ' t had more than five at one time in the last year ? CASOLARA : We don ' t want to prohibit you from doing business but want to keep it small . What about 8 or 10 ? PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 5 - July 21 , 1987 TOTMAN : If it is going to be a full scale dealership we should call a public hearing and let everybody in the neighborhood know what is going on . If it is a small scale operation in a rural area , kept to a minimum basically what you have now , we can look at it from that aspect rather than going through the full site plan review . SWEARINGEN : I could feel comfortable with ten . TOTMAN : If you feel comfortable with that we will put that in the approval and also that there will be no fuel storage other than private and you are not anticipating any repair work . CASOLARA : Under the New York State Lemon Law isn ' t there some stipulation that as a dealer of so many cars you have to make repairs ? SWEARINGEN : I would be held liable for taking car of the car or making it right . CASOLARA : But you don ' t necessarily have to make the repairs yourself ? SWEARINGEN : No . TWIGG : You do do some repair work , though ? SWEARINGEN : Yes , that is where some of the money is . By buying a car with some damage or minor mechanical defect , fix it up and sell it . CASOLARA : We are separating that from somebody driving in with a problem , you wouldn ' t fix that ? SWEARINGEN : No , I would only work on cars that I had sold . CASOLARA : You would do repairs on cars you sold ? SWEARINGEN : No , not unless it was still under warranty . I would if it was within the 30 day warranty , after the warranty is up and you want me to do work , I can ' t do that . CASOLARA : If it was within the 30 days ? SWEARINGEN : If it was under warranty , I would do the repairs . TOTMAN : It would be a slight amount of repair , you would not do it for hire ? SWEARINGEN : It would not be for hire . I would not be able to take any money if I was to do any repair at . all . CASOLARA : Will you be changing oil and that kind of thing ? TOTMAN : That would be before he sells it . CASOLARA : I was thinking of the environmental impact . PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 6 - July 21 , 1987 SWEARINGEN : We burn our wast oil , we have a wood stove burner that consumes recycled oil , it would not be . going out on the ground . TOTMAN : We have a proposal before us , we can elect to go through the whole site plan review with a public hearing to be set for the beginning of the month then we have 45 days to make a decision or we can go with the short site plan review and set certain conditions . TWIGG : I see no reason to go through the whole site plan review , there is no significant environmental impact . TOTMAN : Does everybody agree with what Cecil said ? Board in agreement . Then the next step would be to put conditions on the Special Permit . 1 . No more than ten cars at a time on the lot . 2 . No storage fuel tanks other than for personal use . 3 . No repair work done for hire . • WOOD : One thing in passing , point of interest , if he does any oil change he is required to have outside storage for used oil , that is requred under the New York State Fire and Buildng Code , W . CASOLARA made the motion to waive Section 440 . 4 as applies to a public hearing , C . TWIGG seconded the motion . VOTE : All in favor i Motion carried W . CASOLARA made the motion to approve the proposed Automobile Dealership as proposed by WILLIAM SWEARINGEN , 265 W . Groton Rd . Town of Groton with the following condictions : 1 . No more than ten cars at a time on the lot ; 2 . No storage fuel tanks other than for person use . 3 . No repair work done for hire . M . CAREY seconded the motion . There was not further discussion VOTE : All in favor Motion carried . PROPOSED SUB -DIVISION by PHIL MUNSON , Sovocool Hill Rd . Town of Groton Tax Map No . 33 - 1 - 1 : MUNSON , I think I made a mistake at the last meeting , I asked for a Minor Sub -Division and I think I wanted a Major Sub - Division . On my original proposal I have a lot I can ' t use at all . I think it should be a major . I end up with five pieces , if I do it correctly . TOTMAN0 Regardless of what you do with those , what aout the lot in the middle with the creek ? PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 7 - July 21 , 1987 MUNSON : I ' ll just move the creek . RANKIN : This end lot is already established . Should he go with four others besides that ? CASOLARA : It was one piece and he is dividing it up . RANKIN : You would make 3 bigger ones then ? MUNSON : No , just leave it the way they are and go - with a major . I ' m selling these four here and keeping the big one on the end with the farm . TOTMAN : You have gone back to the 200 foot frontage ? MUNSON : Yes , 200 by 220 feet , leaving the strip in the back . TOTMAN : What you are asking for , is to resubmit it and go to a Major Subdivision for 5 lots with 200 foot frontage and an acre of land ? MUNSON * Yes , TOTMAN I see no problem with that . Does everybody understand what he is saying now ? Board in agreement . Gary , any comments or problems ? WOOD : No . TOTMAN : I think he is right , he should have done that the first time . If you resubmit it for a Major , we meet the third Tuesday of the month , you can come back with the full plans then . MUNSON : Do I have to sell all of it within a 2 year period or one year or six months ? WOOD : No , once it is approved it is approved . You have 180 days to file it with the County Clerk as a Major Subdivision . TOTMAN : One of the plats you prepare goes to the County Clerk , CASOLARA : A Minor Sub - Division is 3 to 5 lots with one or more txurxMffirff less than 5 acres . Why does he have to go with a Major ? TOTMAN : What Bill is looking at. was changed in pencil , Local Law No . 1 - 1984 . As I see it , you resubmit it , including all the lots the way you want them . It is a rural area with not a lot of neighbors and they are all at least one acre lots . My suggestion would be-, get that done and submit it ten days before the meeting for Gary or me to look at to see if you ' re going in the right direction . PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 8 - July 21 , 1987 MUNSON : Would thbsow uEe adequate ? ( referring to tax map ) TOTMAN : The tax map would be okay but not with all that writing on it . WOOD : When it is approved he should come back with the survey maps with the lots to scale . Talking about sub - division regulations , they require monuments , contours , the whole nine yards . However the Board , in its wisdom can waive those requirements . TOTMAN0 The Town Board granted the Planning Board plat approval and gave them power to do what they consider okay , one of those powers is to waive certain requirements . MUNSON : I ' ll bring a new map without the writing for the next meeting , TOTMAN : My suggestion get that done , get it laid out ten days before the meeting so Gary or I can go over it and see if anything is wrong with it before the meeting . MUNSON6 When I go to the County , what do they do , what is the County ' s role ? WOOD : You do not have to have the okay from the County , the County Clerk has to file it . MUNSON " I go to the County Clerk ' s office with the final plat ? WOOD : After it is approved by the Town Planning Board . TOTMAN : Any more questions of Mr . Munson ? ;' No more questions from the Board "', M . CAREY made the motion the minutes of the JUne , 1987 meeting be approved as presented ; C . TWIGG seconded the motion . The minutes were approved MAJOR SUB - DIVISION proposed by Roger Gleason : TOTMAN : At the last meeting we asked Roger to re - submit his proposal for this meeting . Roger called me this morning and said he was not ready with his proposal for tonight . Anybody else have any business to come before the Board tonight ? RANKIN : Gary , does Bossard have a permit for the barn on Sovocool Hill Rd . ? WOODS Yes . RANKIN : What about the trailer Snyder put on Sovocool Hill Rd . ? WOOD : I did not realize he put one in there , I ' ll look into it . PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 9 - July 21 , 1987 CASOLARA : At the May meetingBob Walpole came i w 'p n with a proposal for an auction on Marvin Torok ' s land . I attended the auction . When I got to the auction I found one of the parcels he had divided into five sections and one of them was less than five acres . There was a sign on his board that mentioned that all sales would be contigent on Planning Board approval . The issue for me is , I don ' t want to ever be in a situation when I ' m sitting on this Board and a person comes in and says I just bought some land and I can ' t do to it what I want to do with it until you people' approve it . It seems to me the approval should have come first , before it was sold . TOTMANQ He explained to us that night , when you do it at an auction like that you don ' t know whether one person is going to buy all five . . . . CA80LARA : Hold on , he said he would divide the parcels no smaller than 3 parcels so he would not have to file any sub - divisions . WOOD : That isn ' t the way I recall . There is a sequal to this . Bob has called me and it is my recollection was that the home parcel had been divided into , it seems to me , 3 ten acre parcels . He did talk to me about it and indicated he was coming to the Planning Board , CASOLARA : The issue is this , at the sale , if it had gone as divided , five different people would have bought property on that site . I don ' t want to be in the situation where somebody comes in and says ' I just spent $ 12 , 000 for a piece of land , I want to be able to use it ' . It seems to me we have the cart before the horse . WOOD : The sales were suppose to be contigent on the approval of the Board . TWIGG : It wouldn ' t be a legal sale until the Board approved it . TOTMAN : ( reading from the. May minutes ) ' The sale would be contigent on Board approval and that would be stated in the contract of sale . Basically , I could break this into 10 parcels without formal approval , I may want to break it into 15 parcels and if so I have a Minor Sub - division , WOOD : Bill ' s point is indeed very good , it is something that should not happen . RANKIN0 If somebody comes in here we have to turn him down . TOTMAN : Also , what he is saying is , when that guy buys that particular parcel of land he is signing a statement that whatever he wants to do with it is contigent on the approval of the Planning Board . CASOLARA : . But it puts us in a position of turning him down , George . Puts us in a position of being cornered . WOOD : No , because the seller made an illegal sale . You are not obligated to approve it . CASOLARA : But I .don ' t think that is . a way business should be conducted . Shouldn ' t it be approved as a subdivision prior to the salty ? PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 10 - July 21 , 1987 WOOD : How do you do that as a practical matter . As Bob explained , somebody might want to buy 2 pieces . . . . CASOLARA : But he said he would divide each peice into 3 parcels to be consistent with the regulations . TOTMAN : Take for example , a farmer has one parcel of land that is ten acres . He sells one parcel of land off . Then you want to subdivide . that parcel , you have to come here to get approval for what you want to do with that . CASOLARA : What if I came here and told you I wanted to divide into 3 parcels and then sold it as five parcels . Then I bring the five people in and say ' heres the people who bought the land we have to have a sub division . ' That puts us in a bad position . TWIGG : It wouldn ' t put me in a bad position . Every major road coming into town states that zoning is enforced . So before I buy a piece of land I would want to know what the zoning laws are in that area . CASOLARA : In theory I agree with you , but in practical application I think it is a different story . . . . . . I don ' t want to find myself . in the position where somebody subdivides their land , sells it , then comes before the Board for approval . WOOD : Not to sell it , but certainly if I had a hundred acres and wanted to subdivide it , I would draw out plans , draw the plots and come to the planning Board and say ' this is what I want to do ' . They did it a little different , instead of drawing up a plan , they held an auction but before he sells that property , as in signing a deed , he has to have approval . CASOLARA : I think we are opening up the door to future tansactions . I own 500 acres , I want to subdivide it so I hold an auction and sell all the parcels off and bring all the people down and say . all these people are tentative purchasers of this land , heres the details and so on , here ' s what we are going to do . I just don ' t want to be put in that position . TWIGG : The . sale is not complete until the Planning Board approves the subdivision . TOTMAN : I will call. Mr . Munson and Mr . Walpole and ask them to sit down to a meeting and go over this with us . And if need be , come to the next meeting and explain what is being done and what haspbeen done . Does that make sense to the rest of the Board ? Board in agreement . Meeting was adjourned . Next regular meeting of the Planning Board will be Tuesday , August 18 , 1987 . TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Tuesday , July 21 , 1987 BOARD ( -;present ) PUBLIC PRESENT "George Totman , Chairman Gary Wood , Zoning Enforcement Mike Post , . Vice Chairman Officer Nancy Ostrander , Cor . Secretary William Swearingen %Cecil Twigg Phil Munson %�Verl Rankin %;Monica Carey -* Bill Casolara SITE PLAN REVIEW : William Swearingen , West Groton Road , Tax Map No . 22 - 1 - 8 . 2 Used Car Dealership , TOTMAN : Mr . Swearingen , would you like to explain to us what you have in mind , what the land is being used for and what you propose to do with it ? SWEARINGEN : I don ' t intend to change the land or what is existing already or build more buildings . I want to get a dealer ' s license so I can purchase automobiles out of the state and bring them back and sell them to the public . I am not looking for a big dealership or a huge car lot . It is for my personal use and to sell a few vehicles to save the expense . of the sales tax and registration of vehicles for resale , it would be less expensive . TOTMAN : You are not planning on doing this for a regular living ? SWEARINGEN : Yes , it ' s not for supporting any others but myself , I ' m not going to be hiring other employees . TWIGG0 In otherwords , you are not expanding much ? SWEARINGEN : No , not at all . I am just trying to take some of the pressure off me , instead of having to go through the red tape of assigning the vehicles to myself , waiting . 5 to 6 weeks for the title to come back , paying the sales tax when I purchase the car and sales tax when I sell the car . Either way it is taken out of the profit . I probably do six to eight cars a year and I would like to do a little more than this . Say somebody wants a certain car , I go to an auction and buy the car for them with the license it would only have one registration and one sales tax and one title . I ' m not looking at eight or ten cars on the front lawn . TOTMAN0 You are not looking to do repair work ? SWEARINGEN : No . TOTMAN : You know what junkyards look like , you are not planning to have cars setting around without registrations ? PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 2 - July 21 , 1987 SWEARINGEN : No , just ones I have buyers for . TWIGG : That ' s about what you are doing now ? SWEARINGEN : Right , I have one or two to sell , I have been doing that for several years I would like to do it a little more easier and save money, what with putting out for sales tax and title fees . If you have dealers plates its a lot easier and saves a lot of red tape . You can buy and sell a lot easier on a dealer plates . TWIGG : What you are saying is you have to satisfy the Town ' s zoing ordinance before you can get this license ? SWEARINGEN : Right , I have all the paperwork for it and this is the number one step . I believe it is zoned for agricultural now and I do know other people have repair shops in the country in the Town of Groton and . I am not sure they have dealer ' s licenses . CASOLARA : You would need to put up a sign ? SWEARINGEN : I would need a small sign , yes . CASOLARA :. Will there be any fuel tanks involved on the property ) SWEARINGEN : No WOOD : Would there be any cars at all on display ? SWEARINGEN : Possibly 2 or 3 . I am not going to make a driveway out of my front lawn . TWIGG : You don ' t repair any of these ? SWEARINGEN : Just my own vehicles . TWIGG : Some of these vehicles you bring in have to have some work done on them ? SWEARINGEN : Some body work or minor repairs , no major repair work . WOOD : You are not planning on a vehicle repair shop ? SWEARINGEN : No . TWIGG : That is not a very extensive operation now , he is not figuring to expand . It is not offensive the way it is now . CASOLARA : I think we have to look at the longer term application . For instance , business is good now with 2 or 3 cars but say in a year from now he has 20 cars there . There ' s the possiblity of saying ' okay , go ahead have a dealership in that area ' and without restricting it to 3 or 4 nothing says that he couldn ' t sell it to somebody else and the next thing you know you have 30 to 40 cars there . PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 3 - July 21 , 1987 SWEARINGEN : The new guy can ' t take my license , he would need a new license and application . CASOLARA : It still doesn ' t prevent you from possibly expanding and putting in 30 to 40 cars there . WOOD : Unless that is a condition of your permit . TWIGG : It is not a bunch of junk cars with weeds growing up around them . They are something that move , they are back off the road , not on the edge of it . TOTMAN : Do you know how the sign ordinance reads ? SWEARINGEN : No , I ' m not really familiar with it . It has to be visible from the road . TOTMAN ; I ' m talking about as it relates to the Town Ordinance . The size of the sign has to have a certain limit to it . WOOD : I think he is referring to the DMV regulations for signs . SWEARINGEN : I don ' t want to put a billboard up . TOTMAN : My point is , it is not what the DMV regulations say about signs , it is what the Town of Groton says that you have to go by . You haven ' t looked into that yet ? SWEARINGEN : No , I haven ' t . It is in the pamphlet with business names and regulations . TOTMAN : Gary , do you have any input ? WOOD : No . TOTMAN : Have you seen what he has now ? WOODSNo . TOTMAN : Cecil have you seen it ? TWIGG : Yes , TOTMAN : Verl , have you seen it ? RANKIN : No . CAREY : I ' ve seen it . TWIGG : You would not notice it if you are not looking for it . PLANNING BOARD meeting .4 - July 21 , 1987 SWEARINGEN : The cars are at least 200 feet from the road . TOTMAN : Let me understand what you are saying . You are doing business with the public hoping people will drive by and see the cars and buy or are you going to do it on a contact basis ? Like , I live in McLean and I want to buy a car and if your cars aren ' t parked by the road and there ' s a sign there that says ' Swearingen ' s Used Cars ' how am I going to know you are selling cars ? SWEARINGEN : Most of them will be advertised . I very seldom have to put them out by the road . I do a lot of advertising in the Groton Shopper and the Moravia Shopper . The advertisements sell most : of my cars . TOTMAN : Gary , If this Board says okay go ahead , then he has to get approval from you to get the proper sign ? WOOD : Yes , the first thing is . a Special Permit which comes from you . TOTMAN : When we sign and say this is okay , then for the sign he will check with you . WOOD : Right . TOTMAN : The ordinance on signs says 2 signs can be no more than 90 square feet total . Section 440 . 49 second paragraph , we may or may not have a public hearing , it is the Board ' s decision . TWIGG : I don ' t believe there is a significant environmental impact here . CASOLARA : I don ' t see anything unless the changing of oil or having a fuel tank . RANKINa We should put a limit on how many cars on on the property . SWEARINGEN : I don ' t do that big of a volume . I go to Florida in the winters I ' m not looking for living the rest of my life here . I own 3 acres down there and plan on building there . I don ' t know maybe it would be 2 to 3 years or maybe 8 years , I don ' t know . TOTMAN : Do you plan on having a fuel tank on your premises and what about the used oill SWEARINGEN : I don ' t have a fuel tank and and we burn our wast._ _ oili , . - . TOTMAN : On the question of how many cars allowed , what do you think you could live with ? SWEARINGEN : I probably haven ' t had more than five at one time in the last year ? CASOLARA : We don ' t want to prohibit you from doing business but want to keep it small . What about 8 or 10 ? PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 5 - July 21 , 1987 TOTMAN0 If it is going to be a full scale dealership we should call a public hearing and let everybody in the neighborhood know what is going on . If it is a small scale operation in a rural area , kept to a minimum basically what you have now , we can look at it from that aspect rather than going through the full site plan review . SWEARINGEN : I could feel comfortable with ten . TOTMAN : If you feel comfortable with that we will put that in the approval and also that there will be no fuel storage other than private and you are not anticipating any repair work. CASOLARA : Under the New York State Lemon Law isn ' t there some stipulation that as a dealer of so many cars you have to make repairs ? SWEARINGEN : I would be held liable for taking car of the car or making it right . CASOLARA : But you don ' t necessarily have to make the repairs yourself ? SWEARINGEN : No . TWIGGd You do do some repair work , though ? SWEARINGEN : Yes , that is where some of the money is . By buying a car with some damage or minor mechanical defect , fix it up . and sell it . CASOLARA : We are separating that from somebody driving in with a problem , you wouldn ' t fix that ? SWEARINGEN : No , I would only work on cars that I had sold . CASOLARA : You would do repairs on cars you sold ? SWEARINGEN : No , not unless it was still under warranty . I would if it was within the 30 day warranty , after the warranty is up and you want me to do work , I can ' t do that . CASOLARA : If it was within the 30 days ? SWEARINGEN : If it was under warranty , I would do the repairs . TOTMAN0 It would be a slight amount of repair , you would not do it for hire ? SWEARINGEN : It would not be for hire .. I would not be able to take any money if I was to do any repair at all . CASOLARA : Will you be changing oil and that kind of thing ? TOTMAN : That would be before he sells it . CASOLARA : I was thinking of the environmental impact . PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 6 - July 21 , 1987 SWEARINGEN : We burn our wast oil , we have a wood stove burner that consumes recycled oil , it would not be going out on the ground . TOTMAN0 We have a proposal before us , we can elect to go through the whole site plan review with a public hearing to be set for the beginning of the month then we have 45 days to make a decision or we can go . ' with the short site plan review and set certain conditions . TWIGG : . I see no reason to go through the whole site plan review , there is no significant environmental impact . TOTMANa Does everybody agree with whatCecil said ? Board in agreement . Then the next step would be to put conditions on the Special Permit . 1 . No more than ten cars It a time on the lot . 2 . No storage fuel tanks other than for personal use . . 3 . No repair work done for' hire . WOOD : One thing in passing , point' of interest , if he does any oil change he is required to have outside storage for used oil , that is requred under the New York State Fire and Buildng Code . W . CASOLARA made the motion to waive Section 440 . 4 as applies to a public hearing , C . TWIGG seconded the motion . VOTE : All in favor Motion carried W . CASOLARA made the motion to approve the proposed Automobile Dealership as proposed by WILLIAM SWEARINGEN , 265 W . Groton Rd . Town of Groton with the following condictions : 1 . No more than ten cars at , a time on the lot ; 2 . No storage fuel tanks other than for person use . 3 . No repair work done for hire . M . CAREY seconded the motion . There was not further discussion VOTE : All in favor I Motion carried . PROPOSED SUB -DIVISION by PHIL MUNSON , Sovocool Hill Rd . Town of Groton Tax Map No . 33 - 1 - 1 . i . MUNSON : I think I made a mistake at the last meeting , I asked for a Minor Sub - Division and I think I wanted a Major Sub -Division . On my original proposal I have a lot1I can ' t use at all . I think it should be a major . I end up with five pieces , if I do it correctly . TOTMAN : Re ardless . of what g you do withiithose , what aout the lot in the middle with the creek ? i 1` PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 7 - July 21 , 1987 MUNSON * I ' ll just move the creek . RANKIN : This end lot is already established . Should he go with four others besides that ? CASOLARA : It was one piece and he is dividing it up . RANKIN : You would make 3 bigger ones then ? MUNSON * No , just leave it the way they are and go with a major . I ' m selling these four here and keeping the big one on the end with the farm . TOTMAN : You have gone back to the 200 foot frontage ? MUNSON : Yes , 200 by 220 feet , leaving the strip in the back . TOTMAN : What you are asking for , is to resubmit it and go to a Major Subdivision for 5 lots with 200 foot frontage and an acre of land ? MUNSON , Yes , TOTMAN I see no problem with that . Does everybody understand what he is saying now ? Board in agreement . Gary , any comments or problems ? WOOD : No . TOTMAN : I think he is right , he should have done that the first time . If you resubmit it for a Major , we meet the third Tuesday of the month , you can come back with the full plans then . MUNSON : Do I have to sell all of it within a 2 year period or one year or six months ? WOOD : No , once it is approved it is approved . You have 180 days to file it with the County Clerk as a Major Subdivision . TOTMAN : One of the plats you prepare goes . to the County Clerk , CASOLARA : A Minor Sub -Division is 3 to 5 . 1ots with one or more tx6XxMurm less than 5 acres . Why does he have to go with a Major ? TOTMAN : What Bill is looking at was changed in pencil , Local Law No . 1 - 1984 . As I see it , you resubmit it , including all the lots the way you want them . It is a rural area with not a lot of neighbors and they are all at least one acre lots . My suggestion would be , get that done and submit it ten days before the meeting for Gary or me to look at to see if you ' re going in the right direction . PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 8 - July 21 , 1987 MUNSON , Would thbso uBe adequate ? ( referring to tax map ) TOTMAN0 The tax map would be okay but not with all that writing on it . WOOD : When it is approved he should come back with the survey maps with the lots to scale . Talking about sub - division regulations , they require monuments , contours , the whole nine yards . However the Board , in its wisdom can waive those requirements . TOTMAN : The Town Board granted the Planning Board plat approval and gave them power to do what they consider okay , one of those powers is to waive certain requirements . MUNSON : I ' ll bring a new map without the writing for the next meeting . TOTMAN : My suggestion get that done , get it laid out ten days before the meeting so Gary or I can go over it and see if anything is wrong with it before the meeting . MUNSON0 When I go to the County , what do they do , what is the County ' s role ? WOOD : You do not have to have the okay from the County , the County Clerk has to file it . MUNSON" I go to the County Clerk ' s office with the final plat ? WOOD : After it is approved by the Town Planning Board , TOTMAN : Any more questions of Mr . Munson ? $;No more questions from the Board"� M . CAREY made the motion the minutes of the JUne , 1987 meeting be , approved as presented ; C . TWIGG seconded the motion . The minutes were approved MAJOR SUB -DIVISION proposed by Roger Gleason : TOTMAN : At the last meeting we asked Roger to re - submit his proposal for this meeting . Roger called me this morning and said he was not ready with his proposal for tonight . Anybody else have any business to come before the Board tonight ? RANKIN ; Gary , does Bossard . have a permit for the barn on Sovocool Hill Rd . ? WOOD : Yes . RANKIN ; What about the trailer Snyder put on Sovocool Hill Rd . ? WOOD : I did not realize he put one in there , I ' ll look into it . PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 9 - July 21 , 1987 CASOLARA : At the May meeting Bob Walpole came in with a proposal for an auction on Marvin Torok ' s land . I attended the auction . When I got to the auction I found one of the parcels he had divided into five sections and one of them was less than five acres . There was a sign on his board that mentioned that all sales would be contigent on Planning Board approval . The issue for me is , I don ' t want to ever be in a situation when I ' m sitting on this Board and a person comes in and says I just bought some land and I can ' t do to it what I want to do with it until you people approve it . It seems to me the approval should have come first , before it was sold . TOTMAN : He explained to us that night , when you do it at an auction like that you don ' t know whether one person is going to buy all five . . . : CASOLARA : Hold on , he said he would divide the parcels no . smaller than 3 parcels so he would not have to file any sub - divisions . WOOD : That isn ' t the way I recall . There is a sequal to this . Bob has called me and it is my recollection was that the home parcel had been divided into , it seems to me , 3 ten acre parcels . He did talk to me about it and indicated he was coming to the Planning Board , CASOLARA : The issue is this , at the sale ; if it had gone as divided , five different people would have bought property on that . site . I don ' t want to be in the situation where somebody comes in and says ' I just spent $ 12 , 000 for a piece of land , I want to be able to use it ' . It seems to me we have the cart . before the horse . WOOD : The sales were suppose to be contigent on the approval of the Board . TWIGG : It wouldn ' t be a legal sale until the Board approved it . TOTMAN : ( reading from the May minutes ) ' The sale would be contigent on Board approval and that would be stated in the contract of sale . Basically , I could break this into 10 parcels without formal approval , I may want to break it into 15 parcels and if so I have a Minor Sub - division . WOOD : Bill ' s point is indeed very good , it is something that should not happen . RANKIN : If somebody comes in here we have to turn him down . TOTMAN : Also , what he is . saying is , when that guy buys that particular parcel of land he is signing a statement that whatever he wants to do with it is contigent on the approval of the Planning Board , CASOLARA : But it puts us in a position of turning him down , George . Puts us in . a position of . being cornered . WOOD : No , because the seller made an illegal sale . You are not obligated to approve it . CASOLARA : But I don ' t think that is a way business should be conducted . Shouldn ' t it be approved as a subdivision prior to the salty ? PLANNING BOARD Meeting - 10 - July 21 , 1987 WOOD : How do you do that as a practical matter . As Bob explained , somebody might want to buy 2 pieces . . . . CASOLARA : But he said he would divide each peice into 3 parcels to be consistent with the regulations . TOTMAN : Take for example , a farmer has one parcel of land that is ten acres. He sells one parcel of land off . Then you want to subdivide that parcel , you have to come here to get approval for what you want - to do with that . CASOLARA : What if I came here and told you I wanted to divide into 3 parcels and then sold it as five parcels . Then I bring the five people in and say ' heres the people who bought the land we have to have a sub division . ' That puts us in a bad position . TWIGG : It wouldn ' t put me in a bad position . Every major road coming into town states that zoning is enforced . So before I buy a piece of land I would want to know what the zoning laws are in that area . CASOLARA : In theory I agree with you , but in practical application I think it is a different story . . . . . . I don ' t want to find myself in the position where somebody subdivides their land , sells it , then comes before the Board for approval . WOOD : Not to sell it , but certainly if I had a hundred acres and wanted to subdivide it , I would draw out plans , draw the plots and come to the planning Board and say ' this is what I want to do ' . They did it a little different , instead of drawing up a plan , they held an auction but before he sells that property , as in signing a deed , he has to have approval . L CASOLARA : I think we are opening up the door to future tansactions . I own 500 acres , I want to subdivide it so I hold an auction and sell all the parcels off and bring all the people down . and say all these people are tentative purchasers of this land , heres the details and so on , here ' s what we are going to do . I just don ' t want to be put in that position . TWIGG : The sale is not complete until the Planning Board approves the subdivision . TOTMAN : I will call Mr . Munson and Mr . Walpole and ask them to sit down to a meeting and go over this with us . And if need be , come to the next meeting and explain what is being done and what has been done . Does that make sense to the rest of the Board ? Board in agreement . Meeting was adjourned . Next regular meeting of the Planning Board will be Tuesday , August 18 , 1987 .