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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1985-04-30 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Tuesday , April 30 , 1985 BOARD . ( *present ) TOWN BOARD ( *present ) OTHERS PRESENT #G . Totman , Chairman *T . Robinson , Supervisor C . Pierson , Town Clerk * M . Post , Vice - Chairman , * E . Sovocool L . Cornelius , Highway :v,N . Ostrander , Core Secretary G . VanBenschoten Superintendent #M . Carey J . , Graham J . Fitzgerald , , Town * C . Twigg •D . Cummings Attorney *V . Rankin R . Gleason J . McNeil R . VanGordon L . Harrington B . VanBenschoten r . G . Petrella G . Wood , Zoning Officer S . Simons PUBE1Cm1NFORMAT1ONnYEETING on proposed Gravel Mine on Clark St . Ext . , Town of Groton , by ROGER GLEASON . TOTMAN : This is an unofficial public hearing and informational meeting . The Planning Board had a required Public Hearing as to Roger Gleasonfs proposed mining operations . We had some good questions from the Public Hearing . Basically , that was all that was required . At that meeting there were some questions raised that the Planning Board could not answer . This meeting is to let the people_ know what has transpired from that point to this point . Every time you have a situation like this either the people requesting or the people questioning are not going to agree with what you ddg but we have a job to do . We weigh the pros and cons and make a move in the best judgment of the Board . What we did was we asked for a meeting with the people „ from DEC . Two men from DEC Mr , Joe Moskiewiczand Mr . Robert A . To met with Jack Fitzgerald , members of the Planning Board and members of the Town Board . They went over their rules ( DEC ) and regulations and how they saw the proposal and how they would act if they were Lead Agency . From that point , taking that information , the Planning Board and the Town Board met in a joint meeting . From that meeting the Planning Board took all the facts they had at that point and time and made a proposal to Roger and he . agrees to what he would have to do in order to have this passed . Right from the beginning the people from DEC said they would rather, have the Town be the Lead Agency because the Town knows more about the problems of the Town . If the Town was the Lead AGency , DEC would hold their approval until the Twon accepted or rejected the proposal . If the Town accepted the proposal , the DEC would put rules and regulations stipulated by the Town in the DEC permit . The Town Board agreed to be the Lead Agency . PLANNING BOARD - 2 April 30 , 1985 In the meeting with the Town Board , they made suggestions to the Planning Board . If all parties agree , the following regulations would - ,be put on the mining operations : 1 . The gravel operations would cease on September 1 , 1985 . Reasoning being the Town is planning to work on the road and they do not . want heavy trucks on the new road . 2 . The operations would be conducted from May 1 to November 1 , in 1986 and 1987 . 1 3 . The route' of traffic would be east on Clark St . to Lick St.. . to Rt . 222 . 4 .•. The- mine operator will post truck entrance signs meeting r the DOT 'standards , ' at the . entrance to the operation . 5 . The mining " operations would be conducted in the daylight hours . These were . presented -to Roger and he signed a statement agreeing to . follow, these guidelines . With that , the Planning Board passed the GravelMine , Proposal- . on Clark St . Ext . There were questiones - at - the last meeting whether Mr . Cornelius agreed about the .traffic ' on the road . From . what we ' got from his remarks at the joint meeting , he felt if mining . operations were .to cease the = first of September when the Town was planning to put the new road in , he thought by the next year it would not do the road that much . harm . CORNELIUS : That is • what I figured . PETRELLA : What obligation have you left on ' the gravel mine owner to take iw care of the road? - Di`d you haves;-, an obligation by Mr . Gleason that if Pthe road was torn. up he was to be bonded to take . care of that ? TOTMAN : No , we did not . PETRELLA : You feel you ' have .enough money to fix it if it goes . to hell ? TOTMAN : • We did not feel that would happen . PETRELLA : You ' re going to put a new road in in September and he is going to be on it in April . We ' d be lucky if it . isn ' t still frozen in May . What obligation have you left , at that point , to take care of the road? : You ' re putting all ' the burden back on us . TOTMAN : What ' I read you are the obligations we gave Mr . Gleason. PETRELLA :• What about . us? You just thinking about making Roger happy . You ' re not taking - care of the road . TOTMAN : The obligations agreed upon came as a result of the comments from the people . We felt we met both sides . PETRELLA : The most conversation was over the road . Corny won ' t let him PLANNING BOARD - 3 - April 30 , 1985 over the bridge . We all had concerns what it was going to- do to the road . Now you ' re going to make us wait until September . ROBINSON : It would not start until September anyway . PETRELLA : YoUlre holding , it off . ROBINSON : That. was : the original schedule . ; PETRELLA : , What obligation if the blacktop peels next . year? We have to pay for it . If everybody '.else , knew this obligation came back on them you would see this room full . ROBINSON : I think that was considered . PETRELLA : ` ' ,The only consideration was not to blacktop until September 1 . RDBINSD . 6 If . we. had not become the Lead Agency and the OEC . was to take it over , they were coming in here and you would have no restrictions . They were going to say go ahead , mine it , with • no restrictions . Period . PETRELLA : That road is not as good as Old Stage Road with no limit . ROBINSON : We have. not had the heavy trucks on it . PETRELLA : Then put a limit on it . There will easily be ten , 129 14 .yards on those trucks ; they run them full . ROBINSON.. If they are going to do that they are going to beafined like everybody ' else . PETRELLA : I have to this day to see a Town or County truck pulled over, for being overloaded . Maybe we aught to have a weight limit on Clark St . ROBINSON : There is a weight limit on Old Stage Road and they are running it all the time . PETRELLA : Weill have it on Clark St . with •a worse - situation . ROBINSON : You have the State Troopers over there . HARRINGTONO The trucks come over Clark St . to avoid the State Troopers , TOTMAN : One of the things 's Board like this has to decide , once all . . the facts are in , environmental studies done . . . . . the DEC said if we did not want to be the Lead Agency they would not put any restrictions on it . You have to weigh:; all that to deny somebodyj ' you have to go through the same process . ' You have to have real sound basic reasons for denying a proposal . . You have to weigh both sides . PLANNING BOARD - 4- April 30 , 1985 . PETRELLA : If there is undue distructfonrto the road , what recourse do we have? TWIGG : Rebuild it . 70TMAN : If there is undue problems to the road , I can ' t answer that question . That was not one of the major problems brought up . I assume if it was a real major concern , it would have been brought up . It was not presented to us as a large problem . TWIGG : It amounts to an , impossibility for - Roger to get bonded to cover road damage . That is out of the question . RETRELLA : Do you mind spening your money to rebuild it ? TWIGG : If that road can ' t handle traffic , talk to Corneluis ; build one that will .. You have milk trucks , feed trucks , the trucks with lumber to build your house on that same road . PETRELLA : They were going over the road only once or twice . We are talking 25 to 50 thousand yard of gravel plus the wright .of the trucks 50 to 70 thousand pounds gross weight . We are not talking about a load of lumber that is once or twice . We are talking how many times ; 20 ton go into 20 thousand yard . That is a lot of truck loads . I don ' t mind Roger making money . I have no objection to the gravel bank . My objection is what are you . going to do to the road we live on? What protections do we have? Do we live with .it for another 15 years all torn up or do you fix it? ROBINSON : Hypothetically , you ' re thinking the road is going to be torn up ; what if it is -not? PETRELLA : It is in bad shape now . ROBINSON , We are going to put in a new road . 4. PETRELLA : Not a new road ; youil're going to • blacktop what is there . You ' re not putting -in ' a new. base . ' ROBINSON : You mean we are suppose to, build a road two feet down? We put a road in to' last ten years , ,. that. ' s what we have to put in . PETRELLA : It is' not going to have .a;, chance .,to do that . .' ROBINSON : I have more faith in Corny than you do . . PETRELLA : It is not Mr . Cornelius ' r'; problem .' He is capable of ,laying blacktop ; he is not capable of making it haul gravel on it . You are not going to build a new road . All you are going to do is resurface the road . ROBINSON : That is all we ever do with these roads . The only new roads PLANNING BOARD - 5 - April 30 , 1985 we put in are dirt roads . . You mean ,.we are going to destroy the road surface we ' re going to put in? CAREYe How come other road surfaces are not destroyed? Our road used to be like yours . Our milk truck;=comes by , we have feed trucks . We used to have the salt trucks , came across 222 to Lick St . , they did• not damage the road that much . PETRELLA : How much weight? CAREY : 50 , 000 pounds topped off . SIMONS :. How many axles? CAREY An 18 wheeler . SIMONSa How much axle weight is ' determined by presure at one point . County trucks are six or ten wheeler . Six wheeler , 20 , 000 pounds over 4 wheels the main load 'in the back end . That ' s Where the damage comes in . 18 wheeler weight is spread over a larger area . You get into axle weight limit . You start looking back ; why is there , a weight limit on Old Stage Rd . ? There is a gravel bed on . the upper end of Old Stage , the County was traveling . . . . . . ROBINSON * That was not why the weight . limii was on there . The road was broken up by spring thaw . SIMONS : Was .there a problem , the County pulling gravel out , had to repair the road? The upper end was in better shape than ours . ROBINSON : You have forgotten , that was an . old road . What I ' m saying maybe lthe' best solution is to wait three years and not put your road in , PETRELLA : Weight another three years? ROBINSON : You ' re so uptright about it , wait three years , until the pit runs out and then consider putting in the new road . TOTMAN . 9 Roger , is it not true , ' i'f YOU get the right number of people hauling gravel this year , it might not las three years? GLEASON : I have no idea . TOTMAN : The people from .DEC ° seem to think . you did . not have a three year supply . GLEASON : I have no idea what -I ' ll sell out of there this year . I ' m estimating we have ' somewhere between - 50 - to 75 thousand yards . 20 thousand yard a year is only a wild guess . As of right now I have sold none . PLANNING BOARD - 6 - April 30 , 1985 ROBINSON : That would solve your problem with worrying about your road . HARRINGTON : I ' m concerned about the trucks on the Width of Clark St . SIMONS : Is notgthat part of . your duty , to consider the public safety? I don ' t think you have . Have you -ever driven and met a bus on that 'road , the bus is off the shoulder and you are off the edge of the: shoulder. .Anybody driving a heavy truck ; truckers will not pull off the - edge of the road . Cars will be pushed off the. road . If the truck pulls • _ off the edge of road it will break off the edge . Worse thing to have heavy weight on the edge of the pavement . . Right there , to me , you created a public safety hazard . ROBINSON : Not if you ' re going to have a flagman out there : PETRELLA : Who is - going to have flagman? SIMONS : At entrance of the pit ? TWIGG : The Board decided against that . That was considered . TOTMAN : We talked about that ; in consideration of what you are talking about . You can ' t have a flagman . all along the road . A _ flagman at the entrance would be fruitless . That is why we decided to go with DOT standard signs . . If you thought about it , going down the road the flagman would be by the truck . PETRELLAd What about a speed limit ? TOTMAN: We son ' t set speed limits . ROBINSON : The State does that on any roads . PETRELLA : If we want ' s speed limit we have to approach the State? CORNELIUS ,* You have to have a petition . SIMONS : One other comment I want to say , you establish a public safety hazsrd . M`If someone is hurt on that road , you are to blame . You have not looked out for the people who live on the road . You have not served us by going ahead with this . You said you had nothing to reject it on . Public safety , alone , is something you can reject it on . TWIGG : We weighed the objections and pros and cons and the objections didn ' t weigh up . TOTMAN : We put restrictions on which are apparently not acceptable . We limited the route of .traffic and the hours of operation . We took into consideration of the roads by limiting the length of time can operate it for a year . I think , because these ir PLANNING BOARD -7 - April 30 , 1985 things were • brought up . at : .ttie public , hearirng , . they were considered . We met with the DEC ; we met with ;` the Town Board and ;wIa .met separately and• put everything together and this is what the group of people came up with,. The. reason . we, called this meeting was to let you know what we decided . NEVILLE : You say you . put restrictions on Roger . If Roger contracts with a contractor on 12 hour., shifts , they going to shut down at 4 in . the afternoon? TOTMAN : • They . can operate until daylight hours . If they are operating - other than daylight hours call me . If you see something happening other than the restrictions , het us know . We knew this would not be totally acceptable . to everybody . We felt we should let you know what we had decided . Roger agreed to the restrictions . PETRELLA : Once the road is in in September there will be no more traffic? TOTMAN : Not .until May 11 1986 . In 198611,'n.cana,=operate from May 1 to November 1 . TWIGG92 Not on the roads after the frost . NEVILLE : All the trucks have to go east ? TOTMAN : East on Clark St . to Lick St . to Rt . . 222 . All the trucks from the gravel pit . PETRELLA : They can ' t come in over the .bridge empty? What about to the gravel pit ? TOTMAN : We did not stipulate that . TWIGG : (al It 'is not the bridge that is the. problem, it is the water line . conNELIUS : The Village is just as concerned as I am about it . TOTMAN : How heavy are the trucks when they are empty? CORNELIUS : A 1.0 wheeler would not . be that bad.. I still like to see them in the same route on the east , of - Clark St . Ext . We are going to be working west of the bridge before September . ROBINSON : . Do you still want the ' road? PETRELLA : Might as well do it this year and again next . t3ARRINGTON9 If you put off doing the road out of consideration of one person I think that is going pretty much out of your way to do a favor . ROBINSON * I ' m not doing it for him . I ' m doing if for Guido . If it is going to be an extra cost , we will wait . PLANNING BOARD -8 April . 309 1985 HARRINGTONW . Until Roger gets the gravel out , youlre doing him a favor . ROBINSON : I ' m saying because he said, it -is going. - destroy the road , it is a waste of taxpayers money ; I ' said we will wait to spend the taxpayers money . ` HARRINGTON : We bought our place because there was; �not a lot of traffic . We could ride our horses on the road . We have animals and small children , you are endangering everybody ' s lives by sending them east . There is nobody who lives if you went the other way . . At least you are not disrupting everybody ' s lives . The kids are riding bikes , they ride on the edge .of the road . There is nothing you can do about it . . We purposely live there because it .a quiet road . It used to be . TWIGG : The highway - is not made for bikes or parties . They are made for vehicles SIMONS : Bicycles are classified as vehicles . TWIGG : a' If. bike^ is on his side of road where he belongs , , no problem . SIMONS , Don ' t. give us that crap , pal . Tell me how they ride bikescat 8 years old . Tell me an 8 year old isn ' t possibly going to tip over . in front of a truck . You created a safety hazard . If something happens , there will be a lawsuit against this Town . I will subpeona these records . RANKIN : How fast can a ten wheeler with 20 ton on it go? Keep the kids out of the road SD10NSc SIMONS : You can say it , but you can ' t do it . TWIGG : We lived on road , our kids have bikes . SIMONS : You did not have 10 wheeler . trucks on it . wwxRivmxwwxNZx szkosixWmsssx TWIGG : We had five or six school buses a day , five or six tankers a day , besides feed trucks . I did not ask them to play any special favor with any sides . SIMONS : ; That was normal traffic not traffic created by a zoning change you made . You created this by . . . . .. . . this property . TWIGG : Roger could have done that without us . SIMONS : It would have to go through you first , TWIGG : No , it did not . . The same way with the gravel mine on Cobb St . Roger could have taken us to Court if it had not been approved . PLANNING- BOARD - 9 - April 30 , 1985 SIMONS : Not when it crests a public safety hazard . _ You said so yourself . Mr . Cody said at the . Public Hearing the line of sight is just about nothing . TWIGG : ;You can put so many restrictions on people and that is it . If the Town put restrictions on horses on the road because they cause a hazard * we could ban them but you would not like that . HARRINGTON : We .don ' t like the 10 wheeler trucks either . TWIGG : It is like George said , you ' re not going to satisfy everybody . Uy� HARRINGTON : Now you are letting him have daylight hours . TOTMAN : Most people in County and Town have 4 or 5 o ' clock quitting hour . HARRINGTON : This is a private individual , he can sell until 8 o ' clock . PETRELLA : There would be a lot of problems solved if you out the hours more . You are saying 5 : 30 in the morning until 8 or 9 at night . That virtually cuts into everybody ' s private lives . You could solve a lot of problems if you did out the hours . Being that it is . a private operation . Roger has to make consignments to this thing too . ' I don ' t think they should be gravel mining at 8 or 9 at night . ROBINSON : Don ' t - you think you ought to speak to Roger about that? PETRELLA : No , you ' re the ones that made the rules for Roger , not him . ROBINSON : I asked you should you speak to Roger to see what he has in mind? PETRELLA : No , you are the ones who made the rules , you tell him what hours he can run . It might make everybody happier if we look at the hours . I think it should be the normal business hours , 8 to 5 duirng the day . Then if I want to go for a walk I can do it . You know you are not . going to walk up and down your road if those trucks are going to run up and down the road . What I am saying . is , to make everybody a little happier , if his son wants to go out at least he can feel • a little more comfortable with the hours . TWIGG : When I am going down the road I feel more comfortable meeting a 10 wheeler than someone riding a horse . PETRELLA : Every morning I meet the bus I have to pull off the shoulder of the road . I will not jeapordize the safety of the kids for a minute . Every morning on Clark St . Ext . I . have to pull off the shoulder of the road . A 10 wheeler truck is a lot bigger . y PLANNING BOARD - 10 - April 30 , 1985 TWI6G : I pull off the road for horses , for bikes because it makes me real nervous to pass a kid on a bike . I know what .the . 10 - wheeler is going to do . SIMONS : You are . pointing out exactly what I said , the 10 - wheeler is not going to pull over for kids or horses . ,By doing this , you are creating a hazard for everybody , on the road . HARRINGTON : The object is the road is too narrow . By sending them east you are creating a situation for these things to happen . TWIGG : Whether that horse is meeting a 10- wheeler or a car , it is a dangerous situation . HARRINGTON : What about a school bus meeting a 10 - wheeler . TOTMAN : Roger , in your dealings , so far with this type of operation , what is your experience with people operating after six o ' clock at night ? GLEASON : I really have not had any experience . I guess the thing to keep in mind , though , the operation being during normal hours , I run a farm and farmers hours are irratic . . ' We have to do things when the weather cooperates . I do think people should consider that . TOTMAN : In relation to what we, are . talking about . GLEASON : When I am hauling gravel for myself , ' I have to haul when I can . I would think , in most cases , 7 in morning until afternoons I don ' t see a problem with that . To get too restrictive gets into situations that could be a problem ' to get something done . I don ' t anticipate we ' re going to have all that much business . Who knows? . There is a need for gravel and there is a " need for business and a need for people ' to make a living . I will make every effort not to have traffic late . TOTMAN : As was stated at the start , this was an information meeting ; you don ' t make decisions or motions . . I think we ' ll take that interest into consideration . We will talk to Roger and direct the operation as much as possible , the commercial business . If Roger needed gravel in his barnyard , he might want to do it after he gets his regular work done . From what Roger is saying he might want to get a load at . night for himself . GLEASON : I would certainly think;e that in most cases , the hours would be 7 until about 4 or 5 in the afternoon . I can ' t predict what somebody is going to want and what they ' ll do , I can tell them; I can ' t police everybody . PETREL.LA : Are there any restrictions on weekends? GLEASON9 I would . not thing a lot, of commercial operations on weekends PLANNING BOARD - 11 - April 30 , 1985 PETRELLA : I guess the problem a lot of us have , is no experience , nobody knows about these operations . I guess this is a way to get them in the open and ironed out . TOTMAN : It ' s true , you go through these things and you know in the future what to take into consideration . I- do know , r,. eading about a mining operation in Cortland , the guy wanted tojmine at night and they restricted them to daylight hours . One reason for daylight hours in the summertime is the Town and County go to work at 6 o ' clock in the morning . PETRELLA : By the time they get here , won ' t be until 7 or 8 in the morning . NEVILLE : I would like to say I don ' t see how you can restrict .Roger . He is a local farmer . ,.. : I can ' t see how you can restrict him on the hours . I think mainly ' what most of the people are interested in is the road . The real concern is he will sneak down at eight ' at night . I ' m pretty sure contractors won ' t run at night . I definitely think , • . . . . . go along with this . I think the Board should give consideration on the road part . ROBINSON : Like what? You have a lot of complaints , I want something constructive . . NEVILLE : I did not say I had complaints . ROBINSON : Give me some solutions . NEVILLE: The main thing' 'f-rom the ilast meeting was . . . coming out onto the road with • 10- wheelers , what . the Town . owns widewise on the road , getting out from the driveway onto the road is going to tear up the. road up there one way or the others whether you put in a new road or olad road or what . I think you have some responsibility ' to repair the road somewhere along the line . I think we all know how wide the road is on Clark St . People who own land close to .the road , trucks coming out of there , there is a possibility , , if there is some damage , it could be done. As far as -the gravel bed itself , I have nothing against it at all . GLEASON : I would anticipate we would . fix the driveway so they are not turning exactly on the road . I would expect the entrance would be such that they can turn east without turning on the edge of the road: The would be .' turning in the driveway not on the road . PETRELLA : Are you going to limit that travel or are they going to be able to come in from the backside? . TOTMAN : We will have to di'scuss it . PETRELLA If not , they will be turning . on the road . . PLANNING BOARD - 12- April 30 , 1985 NEVILLE : The law says where they can ' t go over when empty . You have to restrict it down to ton truck . You can ' t restrict it to the mine and 10- wheelers . TWIGG : You have to stop all the large traffic . NEVILLE : The tonnage limit could not be restricted down , tonnage wise low enough for an empty 10 - wheeler . TOTMAN : What is the weight of a school bus compared to an empty 10- wheeler? CORNELIUS@ A 10 - wheeler is 8 ton ; a school bus is 9 to 10 ton . PETRELLA : We have not had a tanker in there since Goodale went out . GLEASON : One thing , I think you will find , is that road has a very extensive base under it . All the fieldstones from every farmer up through there are in that road . I remember when they con- structed it in ' 39 or 140 they put an extensive base under there . ROBINSON : The road from the bridge back to Old Stage Road is going to be building on there early on , so that will ' be restricted . GLEASON : When you are building the road you can restrict it . You can restrict the traffic coming over that area . I anticipated they would come the other way , since they would be constructing it this year . TOTMAN : We will talk about this and maybe work something out on that . If there are no further questions or concerns , we will close the Hearing . We thank you for coming tonight . I , MARGARET A . PALMER , DO CERTIFY that at the Public Informational Hearing held in the Town of Groton' - by the Town of Groton Planning Board for the Gravel Mine Proposal ' of ROGER GLEASON on Clark St . Extension , Groton , I did take the minutes and the foregoing is a true and exact copy of that Hearing , to the best of my ability'.