HomeMy WebLinkAbout198-02-06 i
f 5 '
• , i
GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING
Held in the Town Hall , Groton , N . Y .
Wednesday , February 6 , 1980
8 : 00 P . M .
PRESENT : R . Gleason - Chairman* G . Evans - Tompkins County
L . Raymond - Vice -Chairman* Planning Board
G . Totman*
M . Adams*
C . Twigg - Secretary
J . MacNeil
D . Payne J . Bell - Recording Clerk
- Denotes those present .
Mr . Gleason called the meeting to order at 8 : 15 P . M .
R . Gleason : Are there any additions or corrections to the minutes of
our last meeting ? I did find one , Jo , on page 4 :
"O . K . it ' s the concensus of the Ord . . . . " that should be
"Board . "
Are there any other additions or corrections ?
G . Totman moved the minutes be approved as corrected
which was seconded by L . Raymond . Motion carried .
R . Gleason : There are no reports this evening . Is there any old business
anyone has ? New Business ?
Are you going to New York , George ?
G . Totman : The bus leaves at 10 o ' clock from Dryden on the 17th .
R . Gleason : Cecil and his wife are going and my wife and I are going .
Well , then , we ' ll proceed with the review by Mr . Evans ,
Mr . Evans passed out material on the procedure
on subdivisions and told Mr . Gleason he had
4 extra copies of the material if he needed
them .
R . Gleason : One thing , before you go on - - Lyle called the members of the
Planning Board and it looked light the last Wednesday of the
month maybe would be the best time for us so I thought to catch
up . a little bit we would have another meeting this month and
then one on the fourth Wednesday in March .
L . Raymond : So the fourth Wednesday of each month will be our regular meeting
night ?
R . Gleason : Yes .
- 1 -
x
1
R . Gleason : MacNeil can ' t be here in February but other than that - -
0 . K . , what I need is a motion we ' ll adopt that .
G . Totman : I move we adopt the proposed meeting schedule of the fourth
Wednesday of the month for our regular meeting night and
notify the Town Clerk so it will be in the paper .
L . Raymond : I second the motion .
Motion carried .
R . Qeason : 0 . K . , now I guess we ' re ready , Gary .
G . Evans : Alright , - - the material I handed out to you - - in the right
hand corner . it says 6 rev , which is revised page 6 , . and also
7 , 8 , 8 . 5 and 9 . This is a rewrite of pages 6 , 7 , 8 and 9 of
the Groton Subdivision Ordinance in conformance with the
instructions I believe I got at the last meeting .
This is , of course , subject to some interpretation , - - it ' s not
always clear what I was instructed to do so I think probably
the best way to proceed is for you to haul out your copy of
the existing ordiance , if you have it , , and I can go through
and point out the things which are changes and what the
changes are .
Alright - Article III starts out with a general explanation
and that is unchanged . The next item 3 . 1 - Sketch Plan .
This is rewritten somewhat in that the second paragraph under
"Submission of Sketch Plan" - - "The Secretary of the Planning
Board may decide to advertize that the Sketch Plan will be dis -
cussed at the regular Planning Board meeting by . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
Now the issue we - are dealing with here is whether a public hearing
is necessary to discuss the plan when it first comes in .
G . Totman : 0 . K . , - - that was what we talked about .
G . Evans : Right . In the next item - 3 . 1 . 2 - Discussion of Requirements and
Classification - one of the concerns there was the need of an
initial public hearing on the sketch plan . Now what I have done
here is to try to respond to the concerns expressed at the last
meeting and previous meetings about publicity and public hearings
and public input at .the initial stage of the subdivision review
process .
I have written this in - - in a sort of overkill form and I figured
the way to do this is to look at it and see if all of it is necess -
ary and if not parts of it can be deleted . Let me remind you that
at a later stage in the review there is a public hearing required
by State law .
Now the way this is written a prospective subdivider would bring
- 2 -
G . Evans : in a sketch plan and the secretary of the Planning Board , the
identity of which I ' m unclear of at this point but I think
it ' s the Chairman of the Planning Board .
G . Totman : No , it ' s Cecil Twigg , - -we have a designated secretary .
G . Evans : Alright , he receives it , looks at it and has the authority, to
decide that he is going to advertise -
G . Totman : You might think about that for a minute . The reason that this
secretary of the Planning Board is always stuck in there is
because on a lot of Boards - --and this , again , was taken from
the State plan , - - and I think that is where Gary is concerned .
In a lot of organizations the secretary handles all communications
and so on but in our particular case we elected to have a Chair -
man and Vice -Chairman but to hire a secretary to take verbatim
minutes so we have never really used a secretary per se so
probably we should change that to the Chairman because he is
more aware of what is going on and when the meetings are and
what is happening and it makes more sense to me to hand it over to
him rather than a fictitious secretary . I would think we should
change that wording to be the chairman .
R . Gleason : Is there any , legal reason why we can ' t ?
G . Evans : No , it was my understanding that the secretary was the chairman .
L . Raymond : Actually if you come in and don ' t know about Town affairs , they
come into the Town Office and inquire of the Town Clerk who
will send them over to Roger . Why not put it in there to come
to the Town Clerk who will turn them over to the chairman?
G . Totman : It ' s not the Town Clerk ' s responsibility .
Some discussion was held on this by all .
R . Gleason : Does it refer to the secretary anywhere else in here?
G . Evans : Probably .
L . Raymond : I agree the chairman is better than the secretary .
G . Evans : As this is sketched out - - on receipt of this sketch plan has
the power to exercise his , discretion and decide whether it
warrants legal notice in the paper - and notifying of !neighboring
property owners by other means .
R . Gleason : Should any time limit be put on this ?
G . Evans : It says in the preceding paragraph - - 10 days .
R . Gleason : I meant how much time ahead of the meeting does it have to be
advertised?
G . Evans : It ' s not an advertised public hearing . It ' s strictly advertising
- 3 -
G . Evans : an item on your agenda .
Some discussion was held on this by all .
L . Raymond : 0 . K . so he submits it - at least 10 days before the meeting .
Even so you could still do it if you felt it was necessary .
R . Gleason : You would have to move quickly .
L . . Raymond : Are there any guidelines we need for the chairman to decide
that or just leave it go ?
G . . Evans : I ' m afraid I can ' t help you with this because they are
concerns that you have which brought about including this
provision in the first place and so I think we would have
to rely on your concerns .
L . Raymond : In 3 . 1 . 2 I like that .
G . Evans : What Lyle is referring to is "The Planning Board may decide by
resolution to continue discussion of the Sketch Plan at a later
regular or - special meeting which may be held in conjunction
with an advertised Public Hearing on the Sketch Plan . "
This in effect allows you to look at this as a Board , to decide
this is more significant than you thought and you need to do
something a little more than you have and want to advertise
a public hearing on the sketch plan . Now , this is not a require-
ment in State law . You ' re simply saying we - want to have public
input early on right at the beginning of this sketch plan . This
does not remove the requirement for a public hearing on the
final plat .
R . Gleason : Just one question I have on this - - we ' re getting public input .
Now if we do this maybe it will become clearer later on . If we do
this is it going to be necessary than to have this public hearing
like we have now when we have to have two ?
G . . Evans : If you can hold on to that for a little bit it will clear up . As
a matter of fact if you look on the next page - - if you have
the old version. 3 . 1 . 4 you ' ll see that 3 . 1 . 4 has been deleted
in the version I have handed out to you and the public hearing
mentioned in 3 . 1 . 4 has been replaced by this .
R . Gleason : 0 . K .
G . Evans : So what it does is to take this preliminary public hearing and
make it discretionary - - you can decide whether you have it or
not . 3 . 1 . 1 - - an informal hearing 3 . 1 . 2 - can be a formal public
hearing .
L . Raymond : 0 . K . . all you ' re doing is advertising the fact that you ' ll discuss
the sketch plan - - O . K . now I ' m following it . Then we could
decide whether we want a full- fledged hearing or not .
- 4 -
Further discussion was held on this by all .
G . Evans : Now , if you will look on page 7 rev the fifth line down it
says "Sections 2 and 6 of these regulations " instead of
"Section 2 " and two more lines down it should say Article
III , Sections 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 and 7 " instead of " 3 , 4 . and 5 " .
They were simply typographical errors I ' m assuming .
Also at the bottom of page 7 rev 3 . 2 . 1 the end of the first
paragraph says "Article V , Section 2 . 1 , " in place of Article
V Section 2 . a .
G . Totman : Yes , we discussed that the last time .
G . Evans : Now if you have the present version on page 8 , 3 . 2 . E - Action
on Subdivision Plat - what I discovered was that in adopting
the use of the State Subdivision Guidelines several lines of
the text from the model were left out and 3 . 2 . 6 starting on
page 8 rev . and continuing on page 8 . 5 is a copy of all of
the material , the entire contents of the section in the model
from which it was copied .
G . Totman : With what you ' ve added , it gives us more latitude .
G . Evans ; Well , it tells you what to do .
G . Totman : The State one says you can vary from that 45 days if you want to .
G . Evans ; That ' s right . It also tells you , you have different types of
decisions you can make like granting conditional approval and
so on .
Now on page 9 a couple of lines of text was left out of the
ordinance and the page 9 rev Section 3 . 3 . 1 . includes those items .
L . Raymond : This thing about the Clerk of the Planning Board - -
R . Gleason ; Maybe we • should change that to the chairman wherever it refers to
the clerk should change it to the chairman .
G . Evans : 0 . K .
L . Raymond : And also the copies " to be filed in . . . . . "
G . Totman : How about " in the Town Hall " ?
G . Evans : 0 . K .
L . Raymond ; What ' s this business " copy mailed to the subdivider " ? I ' m back
in 8 . 5 .
G . Evans : 0 . K . say he ' s approved the subdivision so then a copy is filed
here in the Town Hall , and a copy is mailed to the subdivider in-
cluding a statement of requirements which , when completed , will
authorize the approval . . . . .
- 5
i'
L . Raymond : 0 . K . , - - send a copy to the subdivider with the conditions we ' re
attaching so I guess a statement of those requirements certified
by the Planning Board here and saying which , when completed , will
authorize the signing '.. . . ther- e ' snsomething wrong with that , it
doesn ' t hang - -
tL
G . Evans : A bum sentence . I think if you take the copy marked to the subvIl.
divider shall include a certified statement of such requirements
and delete "which when completed" etc . and then go on to the next
sentence .
Further discussion was held on this by R . Gleason ,
L . Raymond , G . Totman and others .
L . Raymond : One thing I would like to see is an additional page put on that
giving a brief rendering of all the steps and can say after each
one see such and such a section for further information .
M . Adams : Yes .
G . Evans : 0 . K . , let me try to give an example that applies in 3 . 2 . 6 . You
have reviewed a minor subdivision plat and everything is just
terrific except that you feel that there are two lots in this
subdivision that really ought to be combined into one but you feel
that that ' s a sufficiently simple and straightforward thing to
understand so you say O . K . we ' re going to approve it conditionally
on your combining those two lots so Roger - signs these two copies
of the plat " conditionally approved . " One he sends to the file
drawer and the other he sends to the subdivider - and along with it
he sends a letter where he certifies that the Planning Board has
conditionally approved this plat and for final approval . they want
the two lots combined . Well , now he has a whole lot of time to
figure out how he is going to combine the two lots but when he
has done that he can come to Roger , a duly designated officer of
the Planning Board , and Roger could then , on the strength of the
other approval and the fact that the plat brought back to him has
those two lots combined , he can give the final approval on it and
the form that that could take , - -I ' m not absolutely certain , - - but I
presume signing it " final approval - Roger Gleason , Chairman . "
L . Raymond : And the subdivider then is not allowed during that period to begin
any work . or take any action ?
G . B7ans : No , in fact according to the first paragraph of Article III he ' s
not even permitted to offer to sell the lots .
Further discussion was held on this by all .
G . Evans : " Before any contract for the sale of , or any offer to sell lots
in such subdivision or any part thereof is made . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
It would seem to me you would want to keep "before any contract
for the sale of , " and delete "or any offer to sell " . Now
there ' s such a thing as a formal purchase offer but this is not what
they are talking about . Contract for sale or formal purchasing
offer are , I think , the same thing and offer to sell is like just
telling somebody you wouldn ' t mind selling some lots .
6 -
r
G . Evans : Now I didn ' t change that because I didn ' t feel that was my charge
at this time but there are a lot of features of the model which
don ' t apply to a rural town and I think that is one of them but
that isn ' t what I was working on at this time .
L . Raymond : After all , we ' re only part - timers and meet about once a month and
it takes more than one meeting to sometimes even get this far .
This business about 8 . 5 - - if we fix up that sentence and take
out the end of that sentence , it would be alright .
G . Totman : Alright , - - do we all agree on that?
G . Evans : Now about the " duly designated officer " do you want to designate
the chairman - - say " signed by the Chairman of the Planning Board" ?
G . Totman : Yes .
Further discussion was held by all on 3 . 2 . 6 .
G . Evans : 0 . K . - page 9 rev . 3 . 3 . 1 there was an omission when it was trans -
cribed into your present ordinance . The fourth line of the revised
page where it says "Such Preliminary Plat shall be clearly marked
' Preliminary Plat ' and shall be in the form prescribed in Article
V , Section 3 , hereof . " That part was left out so I;=:im simply sticking i
that back in . . Alright .
Now that ' s the bulk of the revision that I have drafted in response
to your comments of the last meeting but I would like to point out
a couple of other items . One on page 13 and one on page 14 .
Look at page 13 first of your ordinance at the top of the page on
the third line it says " endorsement and approval by the Town
County Department of Health" I think that meant "Tompkins County
Department of Health . " A typographical error , I presume .
And on page 14 there are two places where I believe Town Attorney
was intended and Town Engineer :- was inserted instead .
The fifth line down it ' s talking about a bond and it suggests it has
to satisfy the Town Board and Town Engineer as to . . . . . . . . . . .
I believe that that ' s supposed to be attorney .
G . Totman : Right .
G . Evans : Paragraph 2 says "Subdivider shall complete all improvements in
accordance with the Town Engineer " - now I think that ' s correct .
L . Raymond : And if we don ' t have a Town Engineer ?
G . Evans : Well the Town Engineer should be the Town Highway Superintendent ,
G . Totman : Don ' t you think it should be town attorney in our town it should be .
G . Evans : Well , - - it ' s talking about roadways , curves and so on , - -you think
- 7. -
i
Y
G . Evans : that would be the Town Highway Superintendent ,
L . Raymond : It seems to me we should say Town Highway Superintendent .
G . Evans : I think the best way to do it is leave it in and in your definition
section set it out there .
L . Raymond : Alright , but that doesn ' t say that in ours so that needs to be
made a little clearer then .
G . Evans : Yes ,
R . Gleason : One other thing in there where it says it has to be duly certified
by a licensed engineer .
G . Evans : The Health Departments have engineers .
R . Gleason : But if the surveyor isn ' t an engineer the way it reads now it says
it has to be certified by an engineer . In other words you have a
lot surveyed out and the person has to pay another $ 25 to $ 50 to have
an engineer stick his name on there .
G . Evans : Can you tell me where that section is ?
L . Raymond : It ' s in the back isn ' t it ? Under Minor Subdivision Plat - - here
it is on page 33 " c " .
R . Gleason : Yes , . page 33 " c " bottom line .
L . Raymond : That ' s where we got in trouble .
Some discussion was held on this by all .
G . Evans : I think that in Tompkins County the appropriate wording is minimum
specifications of the Tompkins County Sanitary Code and a note to
that effect to be stated on the plat and signed by an officer of
the County Health Department . I think that would be appropriate .
I have one more - - which I believe was just a typographical error
and it ' s on the next page - - 34 5 . 3 Major Subdivision . In the
model it says " the following document shall be submitted for
approval " and in your ordinance it says " conditional approval " and
I ' m not clear on why that would be added .
R . Gleason : Well , this is the preliminary plat so theiwould have to have
conditional in there .
G . Evans : Well , conditional approval is one of the three kinds of actions
you can take . You can either approve , approve conditionally
or disapprove . Well they want you to submit these documents
whether you approve or disapprove .
G . Totman : What you ' re say is then if that conditional wasn ' t there than
your approval can either be approved conditionally or -
- 8 -
k
G . Evans : Well , - - it suggests that , - - doesn ' t it? .
L . Raymond : In fact it sounds conclusive .
G . Evans : Just delete " conditional " .
L . Raymond : 0 . K .
G . Evans : Now on the very next line " five copies but preferably less
than 50 ft . to the inch" . Here ' s what it ' s supposed to say
"5 , copies of the preliminary plat prepared at a scale of not
more than 100 but preferably not less than 50 ft . to the inch" .
So you might better put that in there .
1 Well , - -I have emptied my cartridge .
l r
R . Gleason : Alright , - - gentlemen- -what are your wishes on the material Gary
has submitted?
G . Totman : I agree with what Gary has said and he ' s done a good job and I
make a motion we should approve it and have him give us a
completed version of what he has done so far so we can present
it to the Town Board .
M . . Adams : I second the motion .
The motion carried unanimously .
R . Gleason : Last time we determined that we should go back to our zoning
ordinance and get that finished , - -which maybe we could get
done by May .
G . Evans : Fine , - -meet every night of the week , - - it depends on how fine a
toothcomb you ' re going to do it with !
- -� let ' s say , hopefully , we ' ll be done by the summer .R . Gleason : Well ,
G . Totman : Once we ' ve finished will take another 2 - 3 months by the Town Board ,
R . Gleason : But at that point would you then be prepared with a suggested re -
vision to the Subdivision Regulations ?
G . Evans : I think so . I have been sort of collecting information on other
ordinances and so on and I think by - then will have something
fairly well in shape to look at .
R . Gleason : But in the meantime we will be talking about zoning with the
expectation of a quick review .
G . Totman : Well , at the next meeting will accept what Gary gives us and go into
zoning .
i
I move this meeting be adjourned .
M :' Adams seconded the motion - - carried unanimously .
The meeting adjourned at 9 : 45 PM .
Respe�tfu11 submitted
Jos �phi e Bell - 9 -