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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1979-11-13 GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING Held iu the Town Hall Groton , New York - Tuesday - November 13 , 1979 8 : 00 PM PRESENT : R . Gleason - Chairman* Le, Rayriond - Vice -Chairman* J . MacNeil * M . Adams * G . To r'.man C . Twicyg* D . Payne J . Bell - Recording Clerk* G , Evans - CounLy Planning Board * - Denotes those present . The meeting was called to order by R . Gleason at 8 : 10 PM . R . Gleason: You have the minutes from the previous meeting . Are there any additions or corrections ? M . Adams : I make a motion the minutes be approved as written , J . MacNeil : I second the motion . Motion carried . R . Gleason : 0 . K . We have a report and discussion of the Subdivision Ordinance Procedure . Mr . Raymond set up an easel with various pages outlining the procedure . L . Raymond : This is one person ' s understanding on the Board but not necessarily . anybody else ' s . I put it on the board so we can go over it . These are the major steps and this is the same procedure with all :. the little details I could find included here . Do you want me to go through it first or will you read it as we go along ? J . MacNeil : I have one question on the first page . It ' s my understanding that if you have any parcel of land and you take one lot out of that , that then is a minor subdivision . R . Gleason : You can sell one parcel . Right there it presents the problem of how you count them . If you have one parcel out that makes two but if you take the subdivision the first one is one , the second is two , the third is three and the fourth is four and the original doesn ' t count . There ' s where I always assumed you only count the pieces that are taken out and that is where we got into the hazzle with Bucko a couple of months ago . J . MacNeil : I think we should specify that somewhere . L . Raymond : Can ' t we make our own interpretation? It ' s our responsibility , isn ' t it ? - 1 - R . Gleason: Again , which way do you interpret it and which can ' t you? Gary Evans thought 10 days was procedure thing and could be bent and avoid it and I got slapped on it . L . Raymond ; That ' s why I went through this kind of procedure . J . MacNeil : I feel we should define exactly what we mean by this and then you don ' t have to worry about the interpretation of it . If you want to include the first parcel as one lot Iithen we should say that . I think we should write that in while we ' re rewriting the ordinance . R . Gleason: Here comes Gary now . L . Raymond : It ' s not clear . J . MacNeil : No . (Mr . Evans came in at 8 : 15 PM) R . Gleason: Gary , Lyle is trying to take us through the procedures for subdivision and we ' re immediately bogged down . L . Raymond : I ' m bogged down myself but at least I brought out some points that maybe we can resolve a little bit better . This is the classification and preliminary discussion and the sketch requirements and there ' s a list I have on a separate page which came from 31 -32 and also have to see that regulations are met and I pulled those from pages 1 - 2 and have them on a list also . And I didn ' t know where to put this in "where if environmental impact statement is necessary" so I talked to people in Dryden and put it in here . I have a copy of all the forms when we get to that . It looks like a long drawn out procedure as far as I can figure out . They don ' t intend you to go very fast . R . Gleason : I ' m sure I don ' t know . J . MacNeil : If regulation requirements are met , then - - L . Raymond : That comes under classification and preliminary discussion , J . MacNeil : Then , outside of the environmental impact - - L . Raymond : Any interpretation is , - - all we ' re doing is having a preliminary dis - cussion and advising .; anybody who applies that these are the minimum requirements you have to have , - -not approving anything . All we ' re saying is you have to meet these minimum requirements . J . MacNeil : But if they are met then we have to approve it . L . Raymond : No , as I understand it then we have a public hearing and there wills be no sense in having it if something is brought up and we ' ve al - ready approved it . J . MacNeil : But he said if they met requirements doesn ' t make any difference what they say at the public hearing we have to approve it . - 2 - J . MacNeil : time does it take to post these regularly ? L . Raymond : 5 days before the hearing . So , in other words , within 40 days after submission to the Clerk you have to have the public notice in the paper and so on , J . MacNeil : But the whole thing still shouldn ' t take more than a month even if you have the two public" ,hearings , right ? L . Raymond : If we cut that to a minimum - - he submits it to the clerk 10 days before the regular meeting , - -what do we do at that meeting ? Acknow - ledge it ' s been received and say when the public hearing will be held . G . Evans : You ' re having a public hearing on the sketch ? R . Gleason: That ' s what Bucko is saying in his letter . Mr . Raymond showed Mr . Evan the letter he had received from Mr . Bucko , Further discussion was held by G . Evans , L . Raymond , J . MacNeil and others . G . Evans : Article 3 , Section 1 . 4 is a typographical error . The reason I think it is true is - - I ' m reading out of this Control of Land Subdivision which is a State of New York publication of the Office of Planning Services and in it it has model Land Subdivision Regulations and I discover in reading through here is your Subdivision Regulations are verbatim word for word „ using the same number of paragraphs and everything else so I ' m following along here and I get to 3 . 1 . 3 Study of Sketch Plan and it says word for word the same as it says on the guidelines . They go on to Section 2 - Approval of Model Subdivision and your regulations have another paragraph stuck in there . This other paragraph is the one saying a public hearing shall be held by the Planning Board in 45 days and I think it ' s a typographical error . L . Raymond : You mean the whole paragraph is misplaced ? G . Evans : Yes , it ' s misplaced . Further discussion was held on this by all . L . Raymond : I would suggest respectfully that we indicate in the official record of the minutes that we have compared our subdivision regulations to the State Model Regulations from which presumably they were taken and found an error in that some of the requirements mainly paragraph 3 . 1 . 4 has been misplaced and therefore does not apply . G . Evans : What we ' re saying is 3 . 1 . 4 is misplaced . It is in the Groton Sub - division Regulations in this place but it should not be . It ' s a - 4 - G . Evans : nearly verbatim copy of Section 3 . 3 . 6 of your regulations . J . MacNeil : It ' s also the same for a major . R . Gleason : The public hearing appears again on 3 . 1 . 6 . J . MacNeil : That ' s under the major . Further discussion was held by R . Gleason , M . Adams , L . Raymond , J . MacNeil and G . Evans . G . Evans : What you could do is notify the adjacent owners and require it be submitted 15 days before your meeting . L . Raymond : Supposing the subdivider submits the sketch and it doesn ' t show the adjacent owners and only at our regular meeting do we apprise the subdivider , who may be inexperienced , that he has to have these things included in his sketch in which case he has to come back to the next meeting with this information . In that way we ' re not approving anything . We ' re not acting in a decision-making role but a public service role in helping someone out in the community and guide them through it so we have two roles . These are two different functions . CO Twigg : Actually the adjacent property owners wouldn ' t have to be at both of those . If they missed the first one it wouldn ' t be a big deal , would it ? J . MacNeil : I think the first one would be more important . ' R . Gleason : A question arises there in notifying property owners as to what constitutes part of the subdivision . Do you count the original piece as part of it or just the piece you ' re submitting ? In other words if you have 100 acres and want to make 3 lots is that considered three - - the ones you take out or the whole thing ? G . Evans : I understand what you mean . Someone way back on the other side would have to be notified . Further discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , G . Evans and others . R . Gleason: I ' ll ' : now turn the meeting over to Lyle Raymond , Vice -Chairman of the Planning Board , so the Board may consider my application for a minor subdivision . L . Raymond : 0 . K . Do we have a suggestion as to how we should treat this application of Mr . Gleason ' s for a subdivision? Where do we start ? C . Twigg : You have already turned in the maps . That was done - - L . Raymond : He submitted a plan that is being called a sketch to the Clerk 10 days before the meeting . Now this part here what are we going to do ? C . Twigg : Classification - number three - - has been done . 5 - L . Raymond : 0 . K . Number 3 - - here is what we have to do on number 3 which includes environmental assessment ( EAF Forms ) . M . Adams : You mean we have to fill all this out ? L . Raymond : We should . .M . Adams : These are questions on his property . How do we know how to answer it ? L . Raymond : He provides the information . There ' s a long form and a short form . The short form is just collection of information you need to know and this is the long form where you answer yes or no to all these questions . Here ' s the short form and it has to be signed , dated and so on by whoever is chairing the meeting and it becomes part of the official record and it covers every conceivable impact it might have . It ' s really thorough . C . Twigg : That will take awhile to do . L . Raymond : I have brought along with me all of the background information with a copy for everybody that you need on soils and other informa - tion so you can go right along with it . (Mr . Raymond passed copies out to all present . ) L . Raymond : One change I found out from DEC is that one of the streams going through his property is classified . R . Gleason: It shows it on there . L . Raymond : The only thing I don ' t have is identification of unique areas , historical , ecological and so on - - have to specify that . G . Evans : I reviewed the map and determined there are none of them nearby . L . Raymond : And , finally , these are air pollution standards . (Mr . Raymond passed out copies of these to all present . ) J . MacNeil : Is this for all of Tompkins County ? L . Raymond : So if we ' re going to make out the EAF please bring them another time and when are we going to do it and consider all this and do it in the fairest way possible . Further discussion was held on this by all present . L . Raymond : You _ 'shoul3• : go. through,. :the.se .iriaterials I ' ve handed oiz't- and .•have a meeting to fill this EAF form out . If we answered =:those quest-ions that say yes , no - - if enough yeses go in there would have to go to the impact statement . I ' m absolutely positive we ' re not going to go to this step on this subdivision . R . Gleason : You have this short environmental assessment form and if you answer - 6 - R . Gleason: it all no ' s , you don' t have to go to the other thing . L . Raymond : That ' s what I just said . J . MacNeil : We ' re already in violation because we ' ve gone over the 45 days . We did not do our duty so it should be waived and I think we should continue from there . L .. Raymond : So we ' ll ignore the public hearing and go right into the preliminary discussion and all we have to do is the environmental assessment form and have a public hearing . G . Evans : It seems to me you could do the environmental short form this evening . L . Raymond : It ' s O . K . with me . Mr . Raymond read _. aloud the 4 pages of questions on the form which Mr . Gleason answered and then Mr . Raymond signed the form , as required , as .Acting Chairman of the Groton Town Planning Board and attached the EAF Form to Mr . Gleason ' s subdivision application . Further discussion was held by the Planning Board members on the minor: subdivision application. L . Raymond : O . K . , - mso you ' ve applied , paid your fee , so the next step is a public hearing 30 days from submission for approval so we have to schedule the public hearing. After some discussion it was decided the Public Hearing will be held November 27 , 1979 at 7 : 30 P . M . M . Adams : I make a motion that our regular December meeting be changed from the first Tuesday in December to the 27th of November 1979 follow - ing the public hearing . C . Twigg : I second that motion . Motion carried unanimously . Mr . Raymond turned the meeting back over to R . Gleason for general business . R . Gleason: Gary , m -do you have any handouts you want us to look at ? G . Evans : I do but I ' m not sure it makes sense without some discussion . I think I can be pretty brief . I get the impression from this meeting tonight that you would like to have this procedure simplified and everybody is trying to figure out how to do that and how to coordinate this subdivision approval with the County Health Department Subdivision approval and I have come up with a list of definitions . (Mr . Evans passed these out to all present . ) - 7 - G . Evans : These are very sketchy and very preliminary but let ' s go through them very briefly and quickly and you can study it as you wish . " Lot" - this is right out of a zoning ordinance . "Assessor ' s Parcel " is something we all know of but it ' s explained here . " Tract" is a term used in the Sanitary Code . The next one is a troublesome one because a residential lot does not mean just a residential lot but one 5 acres or less in a certain distance of other lots of the same size so I have created this term " Clustered Residential Lot " which is the same as residential lot or residential building plot , ; 1= also created a definition " Rural Residential Lot" which is 5 acres or a smaller lot which is not ckystered and nonresidential lot of more than 5 acres . Now the reason for these come out on the second page , The Realty Subdivision of the County Sanitary Code is on page 3 and you ' ll see it 'does not mean 5 or more lots . It means 5 or more clustered residential lots , At the bottom of the third page is a definition of residential lot which I recoined as clustered residential lot . Do you see the complexity ? I , L . Raymond : It ' s too bad this can ' t be written in lay language , G . Evans : Yes , - -I ' m trying I ' m trying ! Starting with the subdivision which I see my typist didn ' t get exactly right , Subdivision - major subdivision are right out of the State guide - lines . The division of any tract into two or more lots larger is - subdivision . Into 5 or more clustered residential lots not \ just lots or any subdivisions requiring streets and so on . A minor subdivision is up to 4 clustered residential lots . Now for use in rural areas: a third category of subdivision - rural land division . The significance of that is if you have a 100 acre farm and want to divide it into two. 50 acre lots it ' s not a subdivision but a rural land division or relocation of lot -lines to transfer ownership of an area of land from one lotto another and ( 3 ) any other action which results in a change in the lot lines on the Assessor ' s Tax Maps etc , etc , We already have a lengthy procedure for major subdivision and a supposedly short or less formal procedure for minor subdivisions and I would propose thati you consider having a rural land division - - an extremely simple procedure in which an applicant , for example , could bring a sketch plat , a written description or even a verbal description of a rural land division to a Planning Board regular meeting and receive your approval at that meeting . This ,.night take the form of a letter signed by the Chairman of the Planning Board saying this qualifies as a rural land division and meets with the approval of the Planning Board . Something as simple as that . I ' m not altogether clear on the legal authority for these things at this point but have seen some things that are encouraging and if it could be adopted this matter you ' re engaged in right now could be done as a rural land division unless there are a lot of others and I don ' t know on that . If this is interesting to you I ' ll pursue it and track down some legal things on it . 8 Some discussion ways held on this by all . G . Evans : If you have a subdivision - even a major subdivision - - where you have new streets and everything and all of the lots are over 5 acres they don ' t review it . They don ' t review it for Health Department regulations until the person who buys the lot decides he wants to build . If the lots are less than 5 acres than they do review it . That may not go so far as to lay out septic systems and wells but they study the subdivision and by gearing your Town Regulations into the County or Department Regulations I think you can simplify your regulations considerably , Further discussion was held by all . R . Gleason: 00 K . L . Raymond : It ' s certainly one of the faults of our subdivision regulations in my opinion that :nauses dissention among the members themselves and like Mr . Bucko' each one has his own interpretation ;of it . C . Twigg : Now , in other words we would O . K . this and submit it to the Town Board but how big; a job is it to get it . M . Adams : You mean these new rules and regulations ? L . Raymond : They haven ' t asked us for that yet . R . Gleason : Well , they asked us to review the zoning ordinance . C . Twigg : I don ' t see any use in our coming here and meeting if they aren ' t going to simplify this and let us know what we ' re supposed to do and outline our responsibilities . Let them do the whole works . L . Raymond : I think anybody from high school should be able to come in and understand our subdivision regulations . Some discussions was held on this by all . M . Adams : I make the motion this meeting be adjourned . C . Twigg : I second the motion . Motion carried unanimously . The meeting adjourned at 10 : 45 P . M . Respectfully submitted , Joseph ne Bell - 9