HomeMy WebLinkAbout1979-05-01 y
GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING
Held in the Town Hall
Groton , N . Y . , Tuesday - May 1 , 1979
8 : 00 P . M .
PRESENT : R . Gleason% G . Evans - Tompkins County Planning Board*
G . Totman
D . Payne*
L . Raymond*
C . Twigg*
M . Adams*
J . MacNeil Josephine Bell - Recording Clerk*
* - Denotes those present .
Mr . Gleason called the meeting to order at 8 : 20 P . M .
R . Gleason: Has everybody reviewed the minutes of our last meeting ?
C . Twigg : Most of them .
R . Gleason: Are there any additions or corrections ? If not they stand
approved as presented .
Do we have any reports ? Any old business ? Any new business ?
The next thing is election of officers . I guess we ' re supposed to
do this . We were supposed to last time but just had a bare quorum
as we have now - -+ maybe I could call and see if some of them are
coming and could postpone it until later on .
Why don ' t I do that and let Gary start on his discussion .
G . Evans : 0 . K . I think under the circumstances what I want to talk about
first is the sections on nonconformance so if you will take a look
at these first .
L . Raymond : This is an example from the Town of Danby ?
G . Evans : Yes , it is .
L . Raymond : Those guys have' been ahead of us all the way .
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G . Evans : Oh , you ' re going to catch up with them . I have been working with
them for 32 years and they still haven ' t adopted anything . They
started zoning there in 1958 . Anyhow let me just review very briefly
what is meant by nonconformance use . This is something that existed
prior to the adoption of the ordinance , or the amendment of the
ordinance , which if the owner wanted to establish it now he couldn ' t ,
it would be against the regulations .
Now the general doctrine on nonconformance is that they may continue
but they may not expand-: If , for some reason or other , they discon-
tinue operations after a period of time , they may not start up again .
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G . Evans : In other words they are permitted to continue but not encouraged
in any way to continue .
In reviewing your Article 13 on Nonconformance , it seems to me
that there are some aspects of it which are legally incorrect
and some which are a little correct but not very explicit and
this is why I have provided you this Section 480 Nonconformance
from the proposed Danby ordinance .
Now the kind of things about the Nonconformance Article in your
present ordinance that I think are questionable - - Section
13 . 01 Extension or Enlargement - - where it says you cannot but
it says you can if you have a variance from the Board of Appeals .
CO Twigg0 In other words if a person had a business or something that was
nonconforming they can ' t expand that ?
G . Evans : Let ' s be clear about what expansion is . It means that you cannot
add on to the building . It means if you ' re using part of the
building - - let ' s say the business is on the ground floor of a
residential building and an apartment upstairs . It means you
cannot get rid of the apartment and expand your business to what
was the apartment .
If your business requires a certain amount of parking , it might be
interpreted as restricting you from expanding your parking lot or
something of that sort . It doesn ' t mean you ' re not permitted to
expand your business in volume .
Now the expansion thing usually applies to a building , like , for
instance , if you have a little business going in your garage .
Let me take a specific example . In the Town of Groton right now
there ' s one couple that have a little clothing store in a new
house - - a couple of rooms in their house , - - it ' s a nonconforming
activity in this district . They not only want to expand their
business they want to put up a 40 x 80 building on the same lot
and expand into that . That ' s an extension of the nonconforming
activity that would not be permitted .
In your ordinance it says unless there ' s a variance granted by the
Board of Appeals and the Board determines hardship exists . Now
hardship , in this case , is a misconstruing of a legal term meaning
that you can ' t use the lot for anything that ' s not permitted . If
there ' s a nonconforming building or activity on the lot it cannot
possibly be demonstrated that it ' s a hardship and keep saying there ' s
a hardship means the lot can ' t be , used for anything and it ' s being
used . So this kind of language confuses the matter more than it
clarifies it . Now in this section from the Danby ordinance I have
given you it divides the nonconformance provisions into the different
categories of the nonconformance - - Nonconforming Vacant Lots of
Record - - Nonconforming Activities in Buildings - - and nonconform -
ing Uses that are not in Buildings and Facilities and so on and
480 . 7 Repairs and Maintenance of Nonconforming Facilities . These
are the different categories taken from case law .
480 . 2 - - there are people that own vacant lots in the City of
Ithaca who sincerely believe they cannot develop them , which is not
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G . Evans : true and if they had this section in their ordinance they could
see all they have to do is comply with certain things .
480 . 3 and 480 . 4 - - these are expanded because the Courts have
recognized the difference in an activity that is within a build -
ing and one that is in the open air so that the regulations
governing them are different .
480 . 5 - Facilities This is when , for instance ,
let ' s imagine a• strictly residential area where the only kind
of building permitted is a residence or something that is an
accessory to the residence and let ' s say you have something
that is nonconforming to the type of building so 480 . 5 stipu -
lates that the building cannot be enlarged or altered except _
in such a way that the degree of nonconformance or impact on
the neighborhood is reduced and it also says if it is moved
it must be in compliance and 480 . E this is one of the most
difficult ones to get across and that is if you have a building
that doesn ' t have the required front yard , let ' s say you ' re
supposed to have 50 and you only have 30 , what does that mean?
Does it mean you can ' t use the building at all ? No , it doesn ' t but
it means you can ' t alter the building to increase its nonconformance .
Let ' s say you had insufficient front yard and wanted to put an
addition on the„ back . There ' s nothing to prevent you from putting
an addition on the back - - that doesn ' t increase the nonconformance
and I think a lot of people feel if the building is nonconforming
in any way you can ' t do anything to expand it .
480 . 7 Repairs and Maintenance of Nonconforming Facilities - -
all it says really is that even though its nonconforming you
can do all the necessary repairs and maintenance and so on to
keep it in useable condition .
D . Payne : Supposing you had a mobile home on a nonconforming lot and you
wanted to rut a bigger one on it .
G . Evans : Is the mobile home a permitted building type there ?
D . Payne : Yes ,
C . Twigg : I see .
G . Evans : If the mobile home is a conforming type of facility , then you could
replace it with a bigger one as long as you complied with the other
regulations .
C . Twigg : Supposing it ' s a nonconforming one - - could a person add to that
trailer or put another trailer on that ?
G . Evans : Removing the trailer and putting another trainer on it , no . Making
an addition on the trailer this , I think , would be a matter of
degree of interpretation as to whether this was a tail or really a
dog .
D . Payne : Supposing the trailer itself is nonconforming , - - it ' s old , doesn ' t
have correct wiring and doesn ' t conform to standards . How about
putting an addition on to that trailer ?
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G . Evans : This again would be a matter of degree , - -how big it is . I became
very sensitive to this sort of thing when living in Schuyler County
because they have additions on them bigger than the mobile home
so when it comes time to get a permit on a mobile home I think
the size and scope of it is a critical consideration-. The matter
of the mobile home itself being old or whatever is really not
relevant as far as nonconformance regulations are concerned . This
is really not something that is addressed to nonconformance . I
it fell down you couldn ' t replace it with another mobile home .
There ' s very little information I have been able to uncover on the
general matter of variances related to nonconformance issues . It
seems to me there would be a lot of them but I haven ' t been able to
find hardly any so there are questions in my mind I would like to
get resolved but I just can ' t find the reference material .
In your existing ordinance Article 13 on Nonconformance suggests
the Board of Appeals can give variances to the nonconformance
regulations . It goes ahead and says it is supposed to find cer-
tain things like that the regulations are substantially complied
with or the Board feels a hardship exists . That ' s nonsense , you
cannot make such a stipulation to the ordinance with regard to
variances . It ' s like a piece of legislature stating if it ' s
challenged in the Courts they can only consider certain kinds of
evidence . The judge would just giggle at that .
The variance power is one that is given to the Board of Appeals
by State law so the zoning ordinance cannot in any way supervise
or in any way even guide their activities but as a matter of - -
I don ' t know what to call this - - - maybe would have a new
nonconformance section - - the suggestion that a variance can be
issued here and there and so on is undesirable - - in fact a
variance can be granted on any of the provisions of the ordinance
and to mention it only in the nonconformance section suggests , it
seems to me , that a variance would be granted as a matter of
course or easier to get one under these regulations than others
and so, onlso the zoning ordinance would suggest no mention be
made of variances , Board of Appeals , or anything else in this
section because this is one thing I think that goes without saying .
If you ' re going to have an even-handed presentation of the variance
power then you would have to append that to every paragraph in the
whole ordinance . This is a relatively self -contained section .
There are some aspects of this which are not merely optional .
They are really just statements of the way that the Courts have
interpreted these matters and I think the main function of a
section like this in the ordinance is to clarify the nonconformance
doctrine to people who are reading the ordinance and enforcing it
so these things will be clarified before you get into a court
situation or on the other hand avoid the situation like the people
in Ithaca that own vacant lots they think they can ' t develop when
they can . This section clarifies that .
So this is the section which can be dealt with separately and after
discussing this would probably be a good place to break and get
back to your e�lecttions .
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R . Gleason: 0 , K . , I guess we have everybody we ' re going to have so will
proceed with nominations and election of officers .
M . Adams : Any nominations for chairman of the Groton Planning Board ?
L . Raymond : I think Roger ' s doing a very good job and if he is at all willing ,
I will nominate him for another term .
M . Adams : I would second that , if he is willing ,
R . Gleason: Well , I ' ll do it for another year .
D . Payne : I make the motion the nominations for chairman be closed .
CO Twigg : I second the motion .
Roger Gleason was elected chairman of the Groton
Planning Board by unanimous vote .
M . Adams : Now nominations for vice - chairman?
D . Payne : I nominate Lyle Raymond for vice - chairman this year if he will
accept .
C . Twigg : I second that motion .
L . Raymond : Well , I can try . I haven ' t held an office like that before but
will try .
M . Adams : Any other nominations ?
R . Gleason: I move the nominations for vice -chairman be closed .
C . Twigg : I second the motion .
Lyle Raymond was elected vice "chairrnan , of fhe
Groton Town Planning Board by unanimous vote .
M . Adams : I nominate Cecil Twigg for secretary of the Planning Board ,
D . Payne : I second the motion ,
C . Twigg : Alright .
R . Gleason moved the nominations for secretary be
closed which was seconded by D . Payne and Cecil
Twigg was elected secretary of the Groton Town
Planning Board by unanimous vote ,
R . Gleason: Thank you , Mary .
M . Adams : You ' re welcome .
R . Gleason: 0 . K . , - - shall we go back to your discussion , then?
G . Evans : I suppose I ought to first ask if there are any questions about
Section 480 that have arisen? In Section 480 . 7 there ' s a typo
graphical error on the bottom line - - it should say Section
431 instead of 430 . That ' s really not all that important except
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G . Evans : that I did bring along Section 431 , which is the next page and
it ' s a section on what do you do about getting rid of things
which need to be gotten rid of .
C . Twigg : That would be, like that house that the Fire Company burned down
there in McLean . Now that guy has that all filled in . The one
by the used car lot - - the one by the creek that burned down .
This is what they are talking about - - in other words they just
couldn ' t burn the house down and leave an open pit there . It
was probably in nonconformance - - I imagine the lot size was -it was right close in there . So now that lot , or one of that
nature couldn ' t be rebuilt or altered except just to landscape it .
G . Evans : Wrong , - - if you look at Section 480 . 6 paragraph 2 " Should the
facility be destroyed by any means and if it was conforming
as to facility type . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
C . Twigg : Now that would go back to that trailer business . You say if you
remove a trailer you can ' t put it back .
G . Evans : The house conforms .
C . Twigg : Oh , I see , alright .
G . Evans : A problem that occurs frequently in rural towns is that there ' s
an old mobile home on a lot which is really pretty well worn out
and people living in it are not particularly well off but they
are well off enough to get a better mobile home but they have
put the mobile home where it isn ' t permitted so what happens is
you get a variance request , - - saying they want to remove the old
mobile home and put on this new one and as justification they will
- say there ' s hardship on this question of economical circumstances .
This happens so many times but anyhow if the mobile home is in a
conforming facility type then you can take one off and put a new
one back on . The economic circumstances of the family are not
relevant . It ' s not a zoning issue whether you ' re poor or rich .
Now there ' s a very strong tendency for any public body to try to
perform certain public welfare functions that is to say take into
consideration the circumstances of the people involved . However ,
the term hardship in zoning does not refer to the economic cir-
cumstances of the people involved it refers to the lot and un -
necessary hardship means to develop this lot in conformance with
the regulations would be just about impossible - - you would have
to do something else to get any use out of that lot . You would
have to do something that the zoning ordinance says you can ' t do .
CO Twigg : Supposing these people had a - - say their trailer was a noncon-
forming type and say the lot was - - at the sides nonconforming .
What could those people do with the lot ? Could they build a house ?
G . Evans : They could build a regular house on it provided they comply with
the side yard requirements and have Health Department approval .
C . Twigg : But would have to build it small enough to stay within those
measurements .
G . Evans : Yes , although that is something they could get a variance on - - a
dimension variance .
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R . Gleason : In this case , a nonconforming trailer can ' t move it and put
another one on but supposing it catches on fire ? Then what ?
G . Evans : What happens usually is that a trailer that burns is an old one ,
right ? And you can ' t even buy then the same size any more so
if you ' re going to replace it would have to replace it with
something bigger and if it ' s damaged 75% of its value or more ,
the doctrine is you would have to replace it with something
conforming and a trailer would not be a conforming type . O . K .
Now if there is some reason why only a mobile home can be put
on that lot , then you have some justification for a use variance .
R . Gleason: 0 . K . , we ' re discussing mobile homes . This is Danby ' s ordinance .
We don ' t have anything that says can ' t have mobile homes per se so
are we proposing to change that ?
G . Evans : No , the language in here does not specifically rely on the fact
that Danby does not permit mobile homes on individual lots . It
talks just about facility types , dimensions and so on .
D . Payne : Supposing it was a nonconforming trailer and burned down . Would it
be required then that a new trailer coming in would have to be a
conforming trailer ?
G . Evans : Do you have a minimum trailer size ?
D . Payne : We have a minimum floor space size on both houses and mobile homes .
G . Evans : Yes , the one you move in would have to he conforming .
R . Gleason : The same as if it was a house , - -wouldnit make any difference which
it was , - -O . K .
G . Evans : Now you see there are complex little issues and that is why I think
it is useful to have a section of nonconformance that looks at these
different things separately . Danby also has one on nonconformance on
the keeping of animals but you don ' t have this so it ' s not necessary but
they have made that very explicit . In the high district residential area ,
if you ' re keeping animals and have a fenced -in area where you are
keeping your sheep or horse or something like that , if it ' s too close
to your neighbor ' s house .you move it . If it ' s a building you only
relocate it if it ' s destroyed and this sort of thing . The same general
principles are applied to specific situations there .
R . Gleason: Any other questions on this section?
G . Evans : If you would like to look at Section 431 - Excavations , Abandoned
Construction , and Derelict and Destroyed Facilities - - this is
pertinent not only to nonconforming buildings but any other kind
that are damaged by fire or buildings which are started but not
completed and it also applies to signs . Let ' s say there ' s a bill -
board that has half blown over some place that would be classified
;as a derelict facility . If a billboard got hit by a Mack truck
it would be a destroyed facility and these regulations would apply .
All it does is state some general regulations on Town policy and
gives a certain period of time the owner can comply with them but
then 431 . 6 " If a property owner fails to comply with . . . . . . . . . . "
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R . Gleason: 0 . K . , - - any questions here ?
G . Evans : I ' m going to have to leave at 9 : 30 . There are materials on
parking regulations which we discussed the last time . I gave
you three different models . One which was a translation of your
existing regulations , the second one was from the Trumansburg
Village ordinance and another was from Danby again , which is a
fairly simple format which might simplify matters for you and we
discussed them for awhile and then decided to look them over in
the privacy of our own living rooms and come back and speedily
reach a conclusion on what you want to do . Is this something
you ' re ready to discuss now? We can do that or if you prefer we
can leave it and I will go on with the Sign Regulations ,
R . Gleason : I see I had a note to talk to Teresa bout it but I see I didn ' t ,:
C . Twigge . What are we going to do with this Section 480 ?
D . Payne : It ' s just an example , - -as a guide .
G . Evans : I \ just presented it , - - if you want to do this sort of thing in your
ordinance , - -O . K . or leave it the way you have it but there are
some things in your present one I strongly recommend that you
change .
L . Raymond : What section are the Parking Regulations ?
R . Gleason: 502 .
C . Twigg : I tried to find that tonight .
L . Raymond : I ' m pretty sure everything is there that I picked up . Did you hand
them out at the meeting that I wasn ' t here ?
G . Evans : I left extra copies of these things here with Roger . I don ' t know
exactly what he does with them .
R . Gleason: It starts with 500 . I gave copies to Mary and Cecil .
M . Adams : I left it in the insemination thing .
C . Twigg : 0 . K . , - - that ' s why I can ' t find it . That ' s in the car .
D . Payne : I didn ' t get a copy of them .
Mr . Gleason gave Mr . Payne a copy of Section 500 .
G . Evans : Well , for the people who were not here for the discussion of the
parking requirements let me go over them briefly . Section 514
that was handed out was an effort on my part to translate the
parking requirements in the present ordinance into nomenclature
of the facility classification which we discussed at an earlier
meeting and which were the basis for district regulations that
have been developed . The problem is to make the off - street
parking regulations apply to the things which are being permitted
by the ordinance . So it ' s just a matter of translating it into the
same terms and so on . What we discovered , however , is that in the
present ordinance there are no parking requirements at all for some
things that we ' re proposing be permitted and in this section have
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G . Evans : adopted parking requirements of the present ordinance to the various
categories and , for example , community assembly — civic activities -
there are no parking requirements in the present ordinance and I
would suggest you would probably want to have some for that .
L . Raymond : This is also true with all the others but you don ' t have anything down
in the right -hand column .
G . Evans : That ' s right . Now the sheet from the Trumansburg ordinance is an
illustration of how this type of parking regulation can be organized
and that is for each type of civic activity there can be separate
parking regulation and under commercial activities - - the long list
of commercial activities , - -were divided into 5 groups and there was
a different parking regulation for each of those groups . The in -
dustrial activities " - all 5 different categories of them , - -the
parking regulations were the same for all of them . This is one
model and this is a fairly simple way of approaching it . An even
simpler one , however , is the Danby ordinance - - in that one you
don ' t really talk about different permitted activities at all . You
just have a summary so that you have a certain number of spaces for
each dwelling unit , - -a certain number for each rooming unit and so
on- -whatever combination of these things you have - - just add up how
many parking spaces are called for there . It ' s simpler to work with
because you don ' t have the problem of trying to interpret whether
something is one category or another .
Now in the Village there ' s probably some justification for having a
more finely tuned parking regulation because of the density of things .
R . Gleason: That one for Danby looks like the one I would go for .
L . Raymond : Yes , the Town Board one here I can see have a problem right off for
certain groups ,- -I would think you would have to have parking spaces
for the people giving the service where the Danby one takes care of
that , - - it looks` right .
R . Gleason: The only question that I had about parking is we get into this
possibility of more and more people who are pooling or something
like that , would it be possible to write something in that it would
be feasible to have less parking spaces ?
D . Payne : But a few years later , it might be back the other way .
R . Gleason: That was Colleen , - - they have produced new books here on the revised
zoning ordinance , August 1978 , if you just pass those around .
Some discussion was held on this and Lyle Raymond suggested
maybe if the Board got a map of the agricultural district
and superimposed it on the zoning ordinance it might be
helpful .
Mr . Raymond read aloud from Article 25 . 8a of the Agriculture
and Markets Law abd Section 2 of Article 300 after which a
discussion on this was held by those present .
G . Evans : The material I handed out to you on Sign Regulations . This , again ,
is material from the Danby ordinance and on the second or third
page it has their formula for size regulations for different types
of signs . Now in your present ordinance you have about 4 or 5
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G . Evans : different permitted sizes of signs so you might want to have
something a little more complex than this .
L . Raymond : More complex?
G . Evans : A little more , - in other words to put your present regulations under
this , you might want to have more categories , for instance under
business signs - -
The remainder of this section is really just for illustration . Just
a number of different kinds of requirements that you can place on
signs . I think the most important ones have to do with the loca -
tion and the elimination of them .
0 . K . , - -what I assume will happen now is that the Sign Regulations
and the Parking Regulations translated into the new format you ' ll
agree to can be reviewed at the next meeting and I ' ll continue to
bring sections such as the nonconforming one which are pretty much
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - things you won ' t want to deal with local action on
and gradually we ' ll get something all put together .
R . Gleason; O . K . , - - see you next time . Thanks for coming .
Mr . Evans left the meeting at 20 to 10 PM .
R . Gleason: Do you want to quickly go over this sign thing here ? We can look
at our own ordinance we just got here and compare them .
C . Twigg : I think I would think more like Lyle - - more detailed . r
L . Raymond : You know , when you really come right down to it , we have been working
with this thing for how many meetings and we ' re still struggling with
some of the concepts in here and ordinary folks out there who aren ' t
used to looking at legal stuff , you know we ought to be looking for
simplification .
R . Gleason: Right .
M . Adams : On page 35 it tells about signs .
R . Gleason : O . K . , - -good . Signs - Intent - Purpose - Specifications .
C . Twigg : There ' s nothing that disgusts me more than trying to find a business
establishment with just a little sign off the road .
L . Raymond : You look at the " total concept of these regulations . "You know planning
can be a very effective means of preventing change as yell as promoting
it . " Most people think of it as regulating changes that are going on
but it can be used for freezing things the way it is which , in effect ,
you make a judgment that the type of thing that is there now is best
for now or forever and not allowing change to take place as fast .
Certainly these regulations don ' t forbid change but holds them up a
little bit .
R . Gleason: Glancing through this , - -we have 4 pages . I would think that we '
might suggest to Gary that this other 2 pages covers essentially
the same thing . '
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L . Raymond : There are 4 pages here , - it ' s about the same size .
R . Gleason: Are there ? Oh , I ' m sorry .
C . Twigg : But that ' s altogether different . where our ordinance has signs
for - - - this is a general sort of a thing .
L . Raymond : But this is our ordinance , isn ' t it ?
M . Adams : No , it ' s Danby ' s .
C . Twigg : You see in ours it has provisional suggestions .
D . Payne : It seems ours could be reduced a bit by just using this format as
to form and size ,
R . Gleason : I would think we could develop a chart like that .
L . Raymond : In some ways I don ' t see our present ordinance is that hard to read .
R . Gleason: No , it ' s not too bad if you go through it .
C . Twigg : A person , - - like Lyle was saying , - - if a person wanted to put a sign
up for a funeral home he could go to the funeral home section or a
guy for a home occupation - - -
L . Raymond : Sure .
R . Gleason: Any other comments about this ? Maybe we can discuss this more next
time - - what are your feelings fellows and gals ?
L . Raymond : Well , it looks ;like what he has done here is taken - - right in our
ordinance here where it lists all of these various categories and
descriptions - which types of limitations on signs for each one .
Now , I haven ' t checked each one but apparently there are some
similarities but he has lumped them all into one . For instance , a
lot of ours say shall be non- flashing .
Some discussion was held on this by C . Twigg , L . Raymond
and others .
R . Gleason : Are there any other comments ?
L . Raymond : What it boils down to , - - looks like to me , - - it ' s not a clearcut de -
cision one way or the other at least on the sign part as to which one
is superior . I can see where some folks would like to have it worded
so they could go to their kind of business and see the whole thing
there .
R . Gleason: But if we do that , we ' re going to make an awfully long list .
L . Raymond : But we already have it right here . That would be one advantage but
if you don ' t indicate it here it would also be nice to have a chart
here .
Further discussion was held on this by D . Payne ,
R . Gleason , L . Raymond and others .
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R . Gleason: Any other comments ?
L . Raymond : It ' s too bad in , a way - - talking about simlification - - that we
can ' t do the same thing with signs as we do with houses .
D . Payne : You could , - -make a maximum size sign for the Town .
L . Raymond : It would certainly make it a lot simpler .
D . Payne : Or maybe two categories - - commercial type signs and non-
commercial .
C . Twigg : But you take that funeral home sign what kind of funeral home
operator would put up a great big flashing sign?
Further discussion was held on this by L . Raymond ,
Co Twigg , R . Gleason and others .
D . Payne moved the meeting be adjourned which
was seconded by L . Raymond and motion carried
unanimously .
The meeting adjourned at 10 : 00 P . M .
Respe iphi
fully submi&�ettedJo e Bell
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