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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1978-11-07 GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING Held in the McLean Fire Hall , McLean , N .Y . Tuesday - November 7 , 1978 8 : 00 PM PRESENT : R . Gleason - Chairman* G . Hoy - Zoning Board of G . Totman - Vice - Chairman* Appeals* D . Payne* J . Totman * J . MacNeil* G . Evans - Tompkins County L . Raymond* Planning Board* C . Twigg Or J . Bell - Recording Clerk* - Denotes those present . Mr . Gleason called the meeting to order at . 8 : 10 P .M . R . Gleason : All of you have copies of the minutes of our last meeting . J . MacNeil : No , I don ' t . I have a copy of the agenda but nothing else . R . Gleason ; You don ' t ? Did you get one George ? G : Totman : Yes . R . Gleason ; There wasn ' t a copy for Jim? G . Totman : Not that I know of . I have gotten them in the past for him . G . Hoy : You can have my copy of the minutes . R . Gleason : Do you want to .take a moment to read them? G . Totman made a motion the minutes be approved as presented which was seconded by D . Payne and motion carried unanimously . R . Gleason : Are there any reports anyone has to make ? I don ' t think there are . Any old business to come up ? Any new , anybody has ? I have not received anything . I guess we ' ll go right into our review of the material that Mr . Evans has given us . G . Hoy ; Roger , I ' ll get together with you another time about that other matter as I have to leave now . . R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - - now first off - - G . Totman ; I think if you go over this it will take most of the night . R . Gleason : Are there any particular questions anyone has on this first one ? I went through it and was trying to find a couple of things on the 1 - R . Gleason : second page - - refers to Section 332ff G . Evans : 332ff means Section 332 and following sections . R . Gleason : O . K . , - - alright , - - so I guess - - :G . Totman : In doing this , we are assuming, I hope , that we ' re going to stick with the 3 zones - agricultural , low intensity and medium intensity ? R . Gleason : I would like to put a question in , - -whether it would be feasible to divide the agriculture , - -we have two sections really . G . Totman : Couldn ' t we take care of that by special permit ? R . Gleason * This is what I was wondering about . Special permit would do it but it ' s conceivable there would be areasraw it ' s not c - - - - - - - - - - agricultural where you wouldn ' t need to . G . Evans : I see what you mean . R . Gleason : You have your low intensity and medium intensity areas , basically around the Village of Groton and a little bit here . G . Totman : There ' s some here and in Wiest Groton and Groton City . R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - -what I was thinking really , - don ' t have much agricul - tural particularly on the sides of the valley . G . Totman : Is this Route 38 down here ? That is zoned low intensity all the way out to Peruville Corners , isn ' t it ? R . Gleason : There ' s a little industrial zone on the north side . G . Totman : Up towards Locke . R . Gleason ; Yes . But what I was getting at is the width of it here , you don ' t have much farming until you get to the top of the hill . G . Totman : From the Village of Groton through Peruville it ' s all zoned low intensity , isn ' t it ? It ' s medium to the edge of the Village than it changes to low. R . Gleason : Does it ? G . Totman : I think so . R . Gleason : I would have this question , particularly when you get into the recreation category - - there could be some there . G . Evans : If we can go through this exercise , this might make it more apparent . If you find yourselves repeatedly saying that would be fine in this part of the agricultural area and not in that maybe we would be on the track of a fourth zone , - - maybe . R . Gleason : We want to go ahead and go through the type of classifications . Do you want to lead us in it ? - 2 - G . Evans : I feel a little bit out of it tonight . Instead of bringing the same up - to- date version that you have I have the old one so I don ' t know if I could - - G . Totman ; Why not sit by Roger and use the same one ? G . Evans : 0 . K . J . MacNeil : I have a question here - - is there a natural definition for zoning permit , special permit and building permit . G . Totman : Yes , where it says zoning permit it means anything allowable in that particular area . J . MacNeil : Where does it say that in here ? In any of this material? G . Totman : No , it ' s in the present zoning law you have . J . MacNeil ; I couldn ' t find t _1n; there . A building permit and a special permit should be two different things . G . Evans : There ' s confusion about these terms and I ' ll admit I ' m waging a little crusade to try and straighten these out . There has been confusion between zoning and building permits and the building permit is when you ' re enforcing a building code . When you ' re enforcing a zoning ordinance it ' s a zoning permit ; , if you ' re enforcing both , it ' s a building and zoning permit . Now a lot of places where they are enforcing a zoning permit only they call it a building permit which is misleading because sometimes it involves no building at all . A special permit is when an enforcement officer does not issue it and it goes to a Board , either to the Board of Appeals or to the Town Board , either way , and the Board decides whether it is to be issued or not . The fact is that the enforcement officer actually writes it out and gives it to the guy but it ' s the Board that issues it . A zoning permit is a permit issued by the enforcement officer alone under a zoning ordinance and a building permit , which does not appear here , is one issued by an enforcement officer under a building code . Is that clear ? J . MacNeil : Don ' t we have to have that defined somewheres ? G . Evans ; Right and I think in your section on administration there should be a description of each of these permits , who issues them and how they are to be handled . R . Gleason ; One thing I had a question about - - zoning permit 0 . K . under our present ordinance it says for instance - under agricultural commercial raising of livestock admitted into the agricul - tural zone . Now if I want to put on some cows and put them on my pasture I don ' t need to get a zoning permit ? G . Totman ; What you ' re getting at , I think Roger , going through this thing there are many areas where I don ' t feel they really apply . Like if you run a farm in the agricultural zone the way it is now and should remain - - you buy and sell cows and want to add or subtract from them , - - that ' s nobody ' s business . 3 - G . Evans : If a permit is issued , it ' s to establish a new farm . Some discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , T . Totman , G . Evans and others . G . Totman : Why don ' t we go through these one by one ? G . Evans : I ' m not certain which is the best, way to go through these from the top to the bottom or side to side . Why don ' t we just take the agricultural zone and start at the top and--" ; go right through on it . R . Gleason : Go down the line for each item? G . Evans : Yes , I think it might be better , - -you get the objectives of that district in mind . G . Totman : 0 . K . so we ' re only talking about agricultural . T . MacNeil : Can ' t we have something on here which says no permit required ? R . Gleason : I think we should have something saying permitted activity without a permit . G . Totman : 0 . K . , - - I see what you mean . (Mr . Raymond joined the meeting at this point and Mr . Gleason explained to him what is being done at this time that the Board is going through the agricultural zone only all the way through . ) G . Evans : The first item - Site Improvements - - these are usually a matter of whether they are permitted or required so for a building permit you ' re required to have a public or private utilities one or the other and surface modification is something that is permitted so in order to get a permit public or private utilities are required , surface modification is permitted , so I think what we have here is special permit for public utilities , - - I think what we should do is indicate that one or the other is required there . What I ' m saying is for a permit to be issued , one or the other is a requirement to issue the permit . So public utilities or private utilities is required for a zoning permit . R . Gleason : If it ' s residential but if it isn ' t you wouldn ' t necessarily- - - G . Evans : Let me make a suggestion , - - let ' s move on to the next one because site improvements is really a different type of thing so let ' s start on to the next item and put , that one on hold . G . Totman : 0 . K . G . Evans : Non - Residential Facilities - - the big issue here is whether you want to permit drive- in things or not . In agricultural this is for commercial establishments - - drrve- in bank , gas station , etc . G . Totman : Even though you ' re in the agricultural zone there are many areas in it where it ' s almost a low intensity area so when deciding whether to be regular permit , special permit or not permitted is to think of all the things that are allowable in that zone . - 4 - G . Evans ; Drive - in requires some kind of traffic regulations so I would suggest a special permit for that one . G . Totman : I agree . What did we do on 1 or 2 ? R . Gleason : On the enclosed , we want it special permit . G . Evans ; This is an enclosed building other than a residence . R . Gleason : As I read it , the Zoning Officer , when he looks at this , has to look at several things down here before he decides and if you were to pick any particular item down below that we will say permit - - if we permitted the building of a barn than we would have to allow this - - G . Evans : Yes , enclosed non- residential . R . Gleason : For drive - in I can see with special permit - - if you allow any other activity you have to allow access . G . Totman : No . 3 you ' re talking about something completely different . You ' re still thinking of it as just a farm . G . Evans : What we ' re talking about here is some sort of activity where com- merical is going on and people come in to patronize it and some - times stay in their car and then leave . G . Totman : You ' re not saying they can ' t have these things but you ' re saying if you have land with 3 -4 nice homes you ' re saying before they can put up say a gas station or drive- in these people should have a chance to voice their opinion . R . Gleason : 0 . K . G . Totman : What have we all agreed on for No . 1 . R . Gleason : No . 1 - zoning permit - No . 2 - zoning permit and No . 3 special permit , does everybody agree ? O . K . L . Raymond : I don ' t understand this tilled field part . G . Evans : This is a zoning permit if you ' re going to build an open field some - where . Some discussion was held on this by L . Raymond , G . Evans and others . R . Gleason ; So we have under 322 No . 1 zoning No . 2 zoning and No . 3 special permit . 0 . K . Section 323 Residential Buildings one unit - agricultural zone . G . Evans ; The only comment I could make here is that in agricultural area some communities like to prevent or control one at a time development of houses because they not only take up good agricultural land and make immediate surrounding land less easy to handle . L . Raymond ; I agree with that . 5 - G . Evans ; So 1 , 2 , multiple unit buildings in that area should be by special permit . R . Gleason : I guess I would go along with that . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , R . Gleason , G . Evans and others . G . Totman : I really feel , - - - out in the country- - - single dwelling , - - I think it would be too hard - - you wouldn ' t get it through the Board because that really hasn ' t been our problem at all ever since we enacted the first ordinance . If it was a development I could see it but a single house unit or double house ? J . MacNeil : Shouldn ' t the neighboring properties have some say in what goes in there? Further discussion was held on this by L . Raymond , G . Totman , J . MacNeil and others . G , Evans : one way of approaching this is through your subdivision ordinance where you require Planning Board review you can look at this issue at that time . All I can tell you is what other people have done on this . In the Town of Danby they are going to require 3 acre lots for a single house in agricultural areas . R . Gleason : Well , let ' s vote on it . G . Totman ; Under Residential Building - - we' ' re talking about one unit and then on 2 unit and multiple? R . Gleason : If we had a division of the agricultural zone into , for lack of a better name , commercial agricultural zone and non- commercial agricultural zone - - in our agricultural zone there are quite a lot of areas that wouldn ' t classify as commercial agricultural . G . Totman : Those areas are split up all over the Town . I don ' t know how you would ever implement that . L . Raymond : I ' ve seen a number of studies at :the College throughout the State the mess of residential and agricultural , - - just don ' t work - - ones that last get balanced beyond a certain point and it occurs over a long period of years , - - one at a time nibbling away but once you have got beyond a certain stage it ' s almost impossible to reverse it and the difficulties the farmers have really get bad . Next thing you know the farmers get slapped with complaints about noise and farm activities . I agree with George I don ' t think we have reached that point in most areas of Groton at the present time but I think in some areas we may be approaching that . G . Totman : But once they move into the agricultural zone they have to assume that agricultural activities are going to take place , L . Raymond : That ' s the condition . G . Evans : I think it slows it down a little bit but doesn ' t stop it , L . Raymond ; It comes back to a premise when we see an area we want to preserve as agricultural do we really mean that or do we want it changed to - 6 - L . Raymond : residential ? G . Evans : If you can identify the highest class agricultural land and deter - mine you want to save it . G . Totman : We had this same idea, in mind when we tried to make our mobile home ordinance and we got blown off the map and you ' re going to do the same thing with farmers . Just supposing you say land between Town of Cortlandville is the best farm land but the other side is the poor farm land , you ' re going to have those farmers put a rope around your neck because it ' s been determined by the Town government that it isn ' t good land . G . Evans : You don ' t have to present it to them that way . Some discussion was held on this by G . Evans , G . Totman and others . R . Gleason : Could we just simply say- - - and I think you ' ll find agricultural districts - - G . Totman ; For expediency , why don ' t we go with the idea that we now have just the one agricultural zone and go through the three zones we do have and at the next meeting might come up with the idea of another agricultural zone and then can go over it again , otherwise we ' ll be here all night . R . Gleason : 0 . K . - one unit all those in favor of having a zoning permit only ( By a show of hands G . Totman and D . Payne for and L . Raymond , J . MacNeil and R . Gleason against . ) R . Gleason : I guess we ' ll have special permit . L . Raymond : In my mind that will be for two units and multiple also . R . Gleason : Multiple and rooming units , all those in favor of having special permit ? G . Totman : I do . R . Gleason : All those in favor of not having them at all ? D . Payne : I go for a special permit . J . MacNeil : Yes . R . Gleason : Well , will we take special permit all the way through to mobile homes ? G . Totman : You have to consider mobile homes the same way . R . Gleason : Then from 1 through 5 will all be special permit . No . 6 - experimental . G . Evans ; Read that one carefully . G . Totman : This is the one like they have in Danby , - - I would say special permit . - 7 - R . Gleason : Does anybody else have any ideas ? L . Raymond ; I ' d go along with that . R . Gleason : Group quarters ? G . Totman : Special permit . R . Gleason ; Recreational cabin ? L . Raymond : Just a zoning permit . R . Gleason : 0 . K . , regular zoning permit . R . Gleason : Permanent Camping Facility ? G . Totman : Special permit . R . Gleason ; 0 . K . , - - special permit . Accessory facilities - - Material Storage - - 0 . K . zoning permit . Section 325 - Signs . G . Totman : Now I have real questions on this . No . 1 - residential sign , - - I don ' t think it applies - - I just don ' t see where - - R . Gleason : I think we should just say it ' s permitted . G . Totman : Make a notation at the top "P " for "Permitted " and add this category . I also think the same thing for No . 2 , I would call that permitted . G . Evans : If you ' re concerned about a sign here or there being offensive be- cause of it ' s size you can have in your regulations any sign of a certain size - - R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - - as long as we have something to cover it . Do we want to put a "P " all the way or zoning permit on some of them? G . Totman : If he gets his permit for building you have given him one for the sign . R . Gleason ; No . 4 "P " No . 5 "P " No . 6 - zoning permit No . 7 - special permit . G . Totman : Let ' s leave No . 7 under special permit but in the description or definition classify these as permanent signs not temporary ones . At this point in the meeting a Mr . Berlew asked the Board ' s permission to discuss a matter with them . D . Berlew : I ' m David Berlew an owner of property on Champlin Road and former owner of other property on that road and I was speaking to Bob Brown , about zoning changes tonight and he said there aren ' t any yet but they might be some discussed here this evening . - 8 - G . Totman ; We ' re working on the whole town in general . D . Berlew ; I formerly owned a house and acreage there and sold the house and an acre or so off and it was sold as a residence and I understand it ' s zoned agricultural now and this year the people came and wanted to buy more property and I said fine . So I sold them some additional land they wanted on a land contract but I still own some more there . In the last few days there has been a building permit issued - - on the original property that I sold them they have a garage . G . Totman : Now I know what you ' re talking about . D . Berlew : But it turns out it ' s more than a garage , - - it ' s a commercial one but Bob says there isn ' t much we can do about it . This isn ' t my complaint . I ' m in the same business and it sounds like it ' s jealousy but it ' s not . But then I had someone who goes there tell me they are going to have a test track and tryout area in that field I sold . Very nice but I still have other land and I would like to sell it also so I asked Bob if there had been a zoning change and he said not at this time . Right now it ' s illegal - if it ' s made legal I want to request that there won ' t be an out - side test track and trial track and I think other people there would feel the same way . When I sold that second piece of land I specified in the contract what I didn ' t want . I brought the land contract with me , - - (Mr . Berlew read aloud from the contract as follows ) "It is understood and agreed that said premises are to be used solely for agricultural purposes as presently zoned and any deed or conveyance should retain said restriction . " G . Totman : We have no control under that point of law . D . Berlew ; I understand that but this was understood when we did it . But as Bob said to me tonight it isn ' t supposed to be the - - D . Payne : I think Bob is wrong and the Town should get involved in that . D . Berlew ; Bob said it ' s a repair shop . D . Payne : He has to apply for a special permit . D . Berlew ; There are franchises - - G . Totman : May I make a suggestion . The Chairman of the Board of Appeals was talking about the same thing . I think what you should do and you could get more mileage out of it is to see Mrs . Teresa Robinson , the Town Supervisor , where they could see the Town Attorney to motivate the Enforcement Officer , - - all we can do is plan on how to present the new zoning ordinance to the Town Board . D . Berlew ; It ' s just that I don ' t want him out in the backyard doing that . C . Twigg : Does he have to go into a subdivision on a land contract ? D . Berlew : If it ' s going to be used for that purpose I ' ll buy it back . The thing is the Town should do the thing to make it legal . I want to 9 - V D . Berlew ; squelch this before the tracks go in . C . Twigg : Well , actually , it ' s good that we know what is going on . G . Totman : Is this Neil Morris ? D . Payne : Yes , it is . D . Berlew ; But he does have to come before a Board fo do this. . R . Gleason : The Town Board have that power , not us . G . Totman : Our role is to plan . We make the plans , submit them to the Town Board and they enact them into law . D . Berlew ; Who do I want to see then ? G . Totman : Teresa Robinson , the Town Supervisor . (Mr . Gleason made a note that he would also contact Mrs . Robinson to discuss this matter . ) (At this point Mr . Berlew thanked the Board and left . ) R . Gleason : Section 331 - No . 1 - special permit , 2 is special permit , 3 is special permit , in the definition of No . 3 might want to add PUD if over a set number . Section 332 ; No . 1 - special permit , 2 - P , 3 - P , 4 - special permit , 5 - special permit , 6 - special permit , 7 - special permit , 8 - PUD , 9 - special permit „ 10 . PUD , 11 - special per - mi - 12 - special permit PUD optional and 13 - special permit PUD . G . Evans ; The way this is typically handled , - -.in your explanatory material you outline what requires the PUD procedure , - - you could say any develop - ment over a certain acreage or any development for which a special permit has been applied which in the Board ' s judgment is of sufficient impact a Planned Unit Development is required . R . Gleason : Section 333 - - some things in this could very well be permitted , some with zoning , some with special and some with PUD on any one of these . J . MacNeil : I would say you need special permit or zoning permit , one of the two . L . Raymond ; How does retail sale of food and beverages differ from farm stand earlier ? On Section 322 we went over this thing . Enclosed facilities - - no that ' s not the one . Section 322 No . 3 - drive - in . How does that differ from retail sale of food and beverages ? G . Totman : Including this thing in this one ? G . Evans ; One is a building and the other is the activities that go on in the building , - - that ' s the difference . Some discussion was held on this By J . MacNeil , L . Raymond , G . Totman and others . 10 - M i R . Gleason : Section 333 - No . 1 - special permit , 2 - special permit , 3 - special permit , 4 - special permit , 5 - special permit , 6 - special permit , 7 - special permit , 8 - special permit , 9 - special permit , 10 - special permit , 11 - special permit , 12 - special permit - 13 - special permit , 14 - special permit , 15 - special permit , 16 - special permit , 17 - special permit , 18 - special permit , 19 : special permit , 20 - special permit , 21 - special permit , 22 - zoning permit , 23 - special permit , and 24 - special permit . Section 334 - No . 1 - special permit , 2 - special permit , 3 - special permit , 4 - special permit and 5 - special permit . Section 335 - No . 1 - zoning permit , 2 - zoning permit , 3 - P , and 4 - zoning permit . Section 336 - On No . 1 we could say activities exempted under State law are exempted under our provisions . G . Evans : Would it solve anything if we were to rewrite No . 1 and strike "quarrying of stone " and put in limited to State requirements and strike out individual music instruction ? R . Gleason : Section 336 - No . 1 - zoning permit and No . 2 - special permit . Section 341 - - we want to have control on this section so a zoning permit with to indicate if it goes over a certain size becomes special permit . G . Evans ; Establish a limit where it ' s no longer considered a home occupation . Home occupation is no more than one non- resident employee . Could be in business for himself with a nurse or secretary . G . Totman : If that was spelled out I would go for zoning permit . C . Twigg : Use zoning permit but in the description limit it to one non- residential employee or say if you have any non- residential employees than it has to be a special permit . R . Gleason : We should also have a size criteria to - - G . Evans : Percentage of floor space , number of non- residential employees and nb outside storage or display of products . R . Gleason : So if you had those in there it would make it simpler . 0 . K . now zoning permit on No . 1 , ; , 3 , 4 and 5 of Section 341 , Section 3442 - No . 1 - special permit , 2 - special permit , 3 - special permit and 4 - special permit . R . Gleason : How many would be willing to go along with a zoning permit based on size ? Section 342 No . 1 - 4 and then after'-, ,a certain size has to go to special permit . Some discussion was held on this by J . MacNeil , G . Totman , D . Payne , C . Twigg and others . - 11 - Y A L . . Raymond * I would go along with No . 2 , 3 , and 4 for special permit but No . 1 - - I don ' t know . G . Totman ; Well , No . 1 should cross out "music instructions " like we did be- fore . R . Gleason : I can ' t see that it ' s a lot different from 341 . Do the same thing here . We can still restrict this to size . 0 . K . - - based on the same criteria as Section 341 for No . 1 - zoning permit , 2 - special permit , 3 - special permit and 4 - special permit . I don ' t know what time it is but it ' s after 10 o ' clock . CO Twigg : It ' s almost 11 o ' clock . G . Totman moved the meeting be adjourned which was seconded by J . MacNeil . and motion carried . The meeting adjourned at 5 minutes to 11 P . M . Respectfully submitted , �C Josephine Bell 12 -