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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1978-05-02 GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING Held at the Town Hall , Groton , N . Y . May 2 , 1978 PRESENT : R . Gleason - Chairman* Elaine Lewis * - County Planning Board G . Totman - Vice- Chairman David Lewis* - County Planning Board L . Raymond* J . MacNeil* D . Payne* C . Twigg M . Adams* Josephine Bell* * - Denotes those present . Mr . Gleason called the meeting to order at 8 PM . R . Gleason : We have the minutes of the last meeting here - would you like a few minutes to read them over ? D . Payne ; Yes , R . Gleason : .Where ' s ; . tbe , chart that ' s supposed to be attached to them? I ' ll have to get it from George and make sure it ' s attached to the minutes . J . MacNeil : I make a motion the minutes be approved as written . D . Payne : I second the motion . Motion carried unanimously . R . Gleason : As most of you know we had a meeting with the Town Board about a week and a half ago of which I have the minutes . At this meeting we presented our proposal to the Town Board regarding a change in the ordinance for motorized vehicle repair shop businesses . Ben Bucko was to write up an amendment to the zoning ordinance which would then be presented to the Town Board and they would act on it . Well , to give you a review of events , as I understand it Ben wrote this and gave it to Teresa who gave it to Colleen who gave it to her deputy Mrs . Haughn who read it and she said this isn ' t what we said and Teresa agreed . So this is the amendment which I will read and a copy of it will be attached to these minutes . Needless to say some people descended on the Town Board last night . Actually this was not supposed to be used , - - it was a rough draft and open for discussion . Anyways the proposal now is we have to get together with all the garage owners and see if we can get something we can both live with . The Town Board is meeting next Monday night and Teresa suggested they will be through their business at 8 : 30 and would we be able to come next Monday at 8 : 30 ? 44 1 - R . Gleason ; Now , actually it ' s really the Town Board ' s problem as I see it now . However , they want us to be in on it . I guess if we had repre - sentatives there - 2 , 3 or 4 of us , - -would be good enough . L . Raymond ; All we have to do is attend and listen ? R . Gleason : And put in any suggestions we might have . L . Raymond : We would be there to listen in case the Town Board sends it back to us again ? R . Gleason ; If we have any ideas to present they would like them . L . Raymond ; My question is whether we should present them at that type of meeting on the spot or that we should consider it by ourselves . That ' s what I ' m getting at . D . Payne : We have given them a proposal and at the last meeting I thought it was pretty well accepted and the only thing left was for the Town Attorney to rewrite it in legal terms for a formal proposal to go to a public hearing . L . Raymond : So it was out of our hands then . R . Gleason : Right , - -unless they kick it back . L . Raymond ; I ' m not particularly in favor of conducting Planning Board business , or any aspect of it , if it ' s referred back to us ,, - I think we should have our own meeting as far as responding to them on the spot . D . Payne : I agree . L . Raymond : Am I clear on what my thought is ? M . Adams : Yes , R . Gleason : I guess it ' s if we have any suggestions to resolve these problems they would be open to them Monday night . L . Raymond ; We will attend as observers and to receive any instructions the Town Board might want to make to us ? R . Gleason : Do you want to make that a motion ? D . Payne : I think he ' s asking a question . R . Gleason : Really this is old business and Mr . Lewis is here from the County Planning Department and what I would like - - one of the questions that was asked me is what other towns have done . MT . Lewis , could you jus t, very briefly , - . _-cr have ,you .got- something you can say . on this;? , r : _ . - 4 $. _ r D . Lewis As .<far as what other towns have done, I think mainly what they -the first thing many towns will limit the number of bays they can have and if he only has 3 bays can only work on 9 cars a day so that will cut down the number of cars he will have on hand , and if you have a junkyard ordinance anyways then that ' s enforced and if he ' s going to have junk he will have to get a special permit and it ' s all taken care of . Now on storage of cars , I ' m not really sure it ' s funny though since you have your ordinance most of the 2 - D . Lewis : things are taken, idare of - - set back is and you have a junkyard ordinance so he can ' t have one of those without getting a permit so if you were just to allow a person to have a repair shop and he had a number of junk cars he would also have to have a junk- yard permit for that as the law reads if he didn ' t would be violat - ing your ordinance so all of this ;, worrying about a junkyard isn ' t too much of a problem . You have already provided for that . You have said he can ' t . So I think one thing Ben Bucko might have missed is there is nothing to stop a guy , except for the Board , from getting a junkyard permit and a vehicle repair shop permit and then he ' s set so I ' m not sure about the enclosing , I can check around . I might have to check out of the County as far as enclos - ing but really what you can do - - it sounds kind of cruel to specific individuals - - but you can really do anything you want to do for the public welfare so , in other words , can be as liberal as you want to be or have everything boxed up and covered with flowering shrubs if you want to . L . Raymond : What did you mean by the number of bays ? Take a repair shop - - they just have an old building with one door that ' s open . How do you account for the number of bays ? D . Lewis : You could limit it in a number of ways . If it ' s not a regular garage type could limit it to how many square feet you want . The whole purpose is to keep the character of the area you have zoned agricultural . You might have just inherited the zoning ordinance as it is and maybe it needs some real revamping but if there ' s a general character of the area and you want farms and you don ' t mind if some people are doing auto repair but what you don ' t want is a tremendous steel structure which would make things seem in- dustrial when you already have an area for industry the only thing you have to worry about is put a provision in so they don ' t grow to the size of say Cayuga Ford and affect the area around them . On the other hand maybe it is not a problem . It ' s a real thing to consider . Ajust how many would be feasible for them to store . There probably wouldn ' t be too many people willing to wait 3 weeks to have their cars fixed - - they would go somewhere else so would probably only work on two or three per day , - - that would take care of itself . R . Gleason : One of the things about one of the fellows , - - or maybe 2 of them , - - have a towing service and have contracts with the Village to tow away illegally parked cars and so on and they are required to keep them for 30 days so this presents a problem . What do they do with them? J . MacNeil : There ' s a problem also where you tow a car that ' s been in an accident . R . Gleason : So this is one of the things they are really concerned about . They don ' t care about having them there but when they tow them in the law says they have to be kept for 30 days so what do they do ? J . MacNeil : They could be impounded Me Ulmsay at a Village building . D . Lewis : I guess the only problem there is what the towing people ' s or - 3 - J . MacNeil : Town ' s legal responsibility is to protect them against vandalism , say a man ' s car was towed and he was sick so called and said he ' d pick it up when he got well and they put it in a parking lot and it was vandalized he ' d try to get the money out of the Town . R . Gleason : This is one of the things that has come up that they want to dis - cuss Monday night . D . Lewis : I think your obligation is just to interpret the zoning ordinance as it is now , - -what ' s the purpose of - it and how does it apply to the small vehicle repair businesses in that some towns might just decide now we have this zoned agricultural but we look around and the farmers have big barns with rusty plows and old tractors and so on all over and if a person has 6 - 7 cars on a lot it really wouldn ' t matter there and then there ' s no problem . The whole point , as far as zoning is concerned , is how does it affect the adjacent land and the whole ambience of the district . Is it detrimental and should you change controls to protect against it or does it really matter ? R . Gleason : This is what really is - - I have talked with Lyle and others about the fact that we really need to review the whole master plan and go back to the beginning to see precisely what way we want to go and what we ' re really saying is what do the Town people really want to do . D . Lewis : Maybe the zoning isn ' t meeting the needs of the Town . If the people need it , - -maybe that ' s an area - - I think one problem is just be - cause a person owns some land somewhere and is capable of repairing cars , - - that ' s not a strong enough reason that small vehicle repair shops should be at that location but if it doesn ' t hurt anything why keep him from doing it ? It all comes back to the patterns of growth , in- tensity and future patterns you want to allow . One thing that could happen say everyone that ' s working there now gets special permit and can have 2 , 000 sq . ft . 100 x 20 of repair space and later you decide to redo the zoning ordinance and you put through a new one and decide would like to permit all repair work here and then just allow gas stations which do a little repair but supply fuel then you have a few little repair shops scattered around from the ordinance existing now that couldn ' t grow but would stay the same and you wouldn ' t have any more growth . It ' s funny sometimes , things are very important and sometimes they don ' t matter . It just depends on what the surrounding situation is . Did I say anything ? R . Gleason : We really have to examine the whole thing when you come right down to it . D . Lewis : If you live out in the country and say add like pine trees covering these things and the only reason is because - they would like to have trees and their cars aren ' t hurting things that much that isn ' t fair either . R . Gleason : This is what one of the fellows said to me and to the Town Board . Doesn ' t seem you ' re treating us fellows fairly as a farmer can stack his machinery anywheres he wants and it ' s not nearly as restrictive and I don ' t know where the answer lies to this . We - 4 - R . Gleason : can talk about this all night or we can move on to something else which I would really like to do . Do we want to rest on what we have said ? How do you want to handle it ? L . Raymond : It appears to me that if I understand things clearly the next move is up to the Town Board on this matter . Is that correct ? R . Gleason : It seems to me that we agree . Is everybody in agreement with that ? D . Payne : Yes , L . Raymond ; There ' s not much point in us spending our time and discussing this to any great lengths if that is true in the case . We might as well see what action they are going to take and what action they refer to us as an advisory group to the Town Board , R . Gleason ; 0 . K . I ' ll attend the meeting on Monday night . L . Raymond ; I will also if I can . M . Adams : I will , too . R . Gleason : And we ' ll listen to what they havetto say - - if it ' s O . K . could pass on Mr . Lewis ' comments as they apply and if they come up with some- thing and refer it back to us then we can say yes or no or what we think . Unless somebody else has anything more to discuss on the subject let ' s drop it . 0 . K . 80* 30 PM next Monday for anybody that can come . What I really would like to get into tonight , - - and it goes right along with what we have been discussing- - is how we can resolve this whole thing in the future - - I think I ' ll throw the meeting open for discussion of what we want to do in the next few months . We have these recurring problems of things that are now allowed by the ordinance and how to handle them because there ' s apparently not sufficient commercial or industrial area for development of small businesses . Now I think that we should try to find a way and Mr . Lewis mentioned some things that maybe our ordinance doesn' t do that we want it to do or maybe it does it too well . I thought perhaps that the thing to do , and I want some comments , is to take the original study and review it to get the idea - - what we know as the master plan - - from that there are several ways we could go . Basically it would be to try to find out what changes should be made , if any , and what the people in the Town want . So on that subject I think we ' ll go right around the room and will start with Lyle and if you have any comments get them out . L . Raymond ; Well , I can respond „ I guess , by saying what the people in the Town want as you expressed it comes out as purposes . For what purposes do we have an ordinance ? For what purpose do we take any action , for that matter i*I the Town - - whether it ' s part of the ordinance that might have an' effect on those purposes . I think the ordinance may be only one part of the total approach here that we could use in the Town . To give an example the way I see it is if we have decided , - -we , the people of the Town , - - that we want to say encour- age let ' s say small businesses in agricultural area , and I ' ll - 5 - L . Raymond ; separate that from small businesses and residential development in appropriate places , - - O . K . that ' s already in the plan . I would suggest in reviewing these general purposes we sit back and look at what is it that is important to a small business , a farmer , someone who wants to put up a home , - - to consider doing that and to keep them here and I ' m quite convinced that it involves a lot more than just zoning . M . Adams : Excuse me , now what business wants to come in ? Why not wait until some business wants to come and then worry about it ? L . Raymond : That ' s a reaction type of thing . I ' m suggesting we take a positive approach and say 0 . K . what businesses do we want to come in ? We don ' t have to specify when we say small businesses , - - don ' t have to pin it . down to particular types or whatever but what I ' m saying is - - to give an example - - the one I know best should be farming . What is it that keeps farming a viable enterprise anywhere in this Town , or anywhere else , and it ' s not just the restriction of land to agricultural in my opinion . That ' s only one small component in a farm enterprise . It also means that farm in order to survive has to have services and businesses within a reasonable distance from the farm to keep it going . A host of other services in the Town are critical to the survival of the farm so if we want to look at agriculture as something we want to encourage in the Town we also have to look at what type of small businesses we will allow because as I seee, it they are interlocked with the farmers . That includes - _ '� - - - - - - - - businesses , construction businesses , - - I ' m only using the farmer as an example because I know that best and that could-. be the type of approach generally I would think of as a resident of the Town if we want to encourage farming . Is that what we want ? Do we want to keep farming in the Town , and if so what is needed to keep that a viable enterprise ? We ' rePh wing troubles right now with farmers being cut off the - - - 1�=� � � - - - - market . M . Adams : With zoning here , can ' t do anything about that . I ' m a farmer , too . L . Raymond ; They are being required in many places to have a large - - - - - - - M . Adams : That isn ' t right here in Groton . L . Raymond : Yes , it is here in Groton b�' the Town roads around - - M . Adams : Not with our group . L . Raymond ; Do we want to put in roads or bridges in order to maintain that farm ? It might be critical . A fellow came to our house the other day and said to put a road in would cost a farmer $ 10 , 000 . M . Adams : That wasn ' t right here in Groton was it ? L . Raymond : I didn ' t ask . But the fellow that did the road was from Groton . I ' m not talking specifically , - - I ' m saying these are some of the things we have to consider . If we want to support small businesses and farmers we have to support all of those things in addition to just farming the way I see it . 6 - L . Raymond ; I ' m familiar - - since I work - - my own job in Coop . Extension -some studies have been carried out in other counties that have addressed that problem and they have identified about 20 service type ' . businesses who depend , to a large extent , for their business beyond farmers . If the farmers weren ' t there they ' d lose their business also so if we ' re saying we want to encourage agriculture then we want to say we want to encourage small businesses that serve those farmers . I ' m looking at the big picture and I think we need to know something about the problems of the farmers in the Town , - - are they being adequately served or do they have to go long distances in order to get parts for their machinery , etc . Are they restricted on the type they purchase because they aren ' t available readily ? Are there things the Town can do to encourage that type of business because here in fact it would encourage agriculture to stay here also . We have our own little enterprise , which is small , which is a farm , - maple syrup and strawberries . You multiply that - - take Roger here - - how many service businesses does he patronize through the year - - I suspect it ' s a great number and I ' m saying you have to see the whole picture , not just zoning . R . Gleason ; So we have this one component - - agricultural - - we also have housing in the Town and I know Don has thought about housing and George also earlier . You ' re interested in protecting investment in houses ? D . Payne : I think everybody is interested in that . R . Gleason : You also like to live outside in a rural setting and so on . Now , Lyle has said some things - . - have you any comments , Don ? D . Payne : We have an active agricultural district in Town ,? ? R . Gleason : Right . D . Payne : So I think this in itself speaks for a lot of land owners in Town . They formed this themselves and as you mentioned I think that would be an area to look at . L . Raymond : The whole Town is not in the district is it ? R . Gleason ; The Western part is not . Essentially everything East _ of Route 38 and some small sections in Peruville and so on . Cobb Street and that area are not . D . Payne : But getting back to what you mentioned . The points Mr . Lewis brought up earlier , we have regulations in the Town such as junk- yard ordinance and zoning ordinance and if they were enforced it might be alright the way it is . I don ' t know . I do know they haven ' t been enforced properly and we don ' t know whether if they were the problems would resolve themselves . R . Gleason : Right . I wonder if we should go into what "enforce " means . When you say enforce you say someone does something wrong you throw the book at him and make him change but another way is actually carrying out the regulations and what I had in mind some of these - 7 - R . Gleason : problems should have - been resolved a long time ago if there had been procedures outlined in the ordinance . This business of automotive repair has been sitting around because nobody knew just what to do with it . Instead of going to the Board of Appeals for an 0 . K . or turn down it just sat . D . Payne : We also had other people in the Town go ahead and do it anyways . That ' s the part of enforcement I 'm talking about . R . Gleason ; 0 . K . but I ' m wondering if the enforcement is the carrying through of the various parts - - there ' s time limits and , in some cases , I think that the person has maybe a legitimate right to go ahead because the Town didn ' t give them an answer in the specified time , would they be right - - if you don ' t get an answer it ' s affirmative ? D . Lewis : If there ' s legislated procedure . For example , I went to one confer - ence on historic preservation where they stressed how it ' s an ordinance not a law . So I guess if there ' s a law and someone says can I do this anyway and he doesn ' t get an answer but if there ' s a procedure and he doesn ' t get an answer and it ' s required in such and such a time he might be able to say his rights have been denied him: D . Payne : In the subdivision regulations if the Planning Board does not give an answer within a certain time on subdivisions Some discussion was held on this' .by .. R . Gleason , D . Payne , L . Raymond and others . J . MacNeil : Is there a County Enforcement Officer ? R . Gleason : The Towns have the power on zoning regulations . There ' s no County zoning . D . Lewis : What people will often do , though , is go to the County Health Depart - ment if they can get a health problem in there and they can close it down but otherwise it ' s all up to the Town . R . Gleason : Jim , do you have any comments ? J . MacNeil : Not really over what has already been said . There have been a lot of good points already brought up but I do feel we should review the whole thing and think about it to see if we should go over the whole thing . M . Adams : Has anybody complained about people selling wood off their front garage yard ? R . Gleason : Apparently there have . been some informal complaints . M . Adams : That ' s a little business , - - I just wondered . No . I haven ' t any comments . R . Gleason : Would you think we were heading in the right or wrong direction to review the whole thing ? M . Adams : I don ' t know , - - to me it ' s just a lot of time taken up to go over the same thing all the time and come up with the same thing all the time . - 8 - Yy J . MacNeil : I think we should review the Special Permits Section . I thought the way it covers things is very good . They cover most everything by special permit . R . Gleason : 0 . K . - - no wonder I couldn ' t find these - - you gave them to me and - - D . Payne : I gave them to Ben . J . MacNeil : They break them down differently in different sections and that might be the ideal way to go . I think a lot more things should be covered by special permit than defined specifically . Like if things like small repair shops had been specified under special permit we wouldn ' t have that problem . M . Adams : Good . R . Gleason : 0 . K . Does anybody else have any comments ? Now , Mr . Lewis , after having heard the comments , is this an area where the County Plann- ing Department possibly could help us ? D . Lewis : Sure , I think they would be happy to . As I told you on the phone you would have to go through the Commissioner , Mr . Liguori , because we have County Plan with basic patterns which might be best for County growth - - would be nice if we could work with you . I might not be able to help right off but somebody else on the staff might be able to meet your needs and at the same time have the County function better . I know the county would be willing and able to help . I don ' t know how quickly it could be reviewed but I would assume because of the environmental quality review and flood hazard areas they will have to have special zoning permits by September 1st - - that would be a good goal date for having things ironed out by September . R . Gleason : One of the things I find in reading over our plan , really the Town Board has retained most of the powers and it ' s really up to them to decide whether we should review it at all . We can suggest that a review can be made but really what we should do is to ask the Town Board to ask Mr . Liguori to have someone come in and review the thing . Would that be the right procedure ? D . Lewis : I would think so . That ' s the same thing we have in the County . We can come up with great plans but the Town Council have to review it . They know what the people want and maybe our values and the people ' s values are a little different . Through the process it gets evened out . You ' re just an advisory board and wouldn ' t advise them unless they want you to do so . At the same time as Lyle said planning for the future - - it ' s really nice to have things done if you ' re working with more general terms - - then if someone comes in with something new if you have these general classifications you can say well that should fit in here . Some discussion was held on this by D . Lewis , J . MacNeil , R . Gleason and others . R . Gleason : Should I - - informally - - as chairman with the approval of the Planning Board discuss with Teresa - - - 9 - r � L . Raymond : I suggest - that you discuss with Teresa the fact we have had a dis - cussion on some of the problems with the zoning ordinance that the Town has been facing and that it suggests to us that perhaps this is a symptom of some deficiency in our overall development plan and perhaps it would be a good time to review that plan . R . Gleason : Does everybody feel this way ? Any other comments ? Does that meet everybody ' s approval , - -Don ? D . Payne : The only thing I ' m afraid of is it ' s so general - - they are going to say O . K . go through the whole thing . R . Gleason : Then we say good and I think we can get some help from the County and they could review it and give us a condensed version . D . Lewis : If certain points have to be gone through like special permits and changing of wording and someone says go through the whole thing can go through it and find that ' s what has to be worked on . You ' re paying your taxes and we can read for a day . L . Raymond : I would be interested in knowing how much the small businesses in general here in the Town depend upon say agriculture - - how much interaction there is between these . Say the farmers went away overnight how many small businesses would collapse ? What types of small businesses should be here to do their business . We don ' t have any facts on this type of thing . I guess what I ' m referring to -in my own work here - - Oneida County and their extension agent went through this and identified -20 agricultural -business categories that dealt with farmers directly and included 14 that depended on farmers for their trade . And on the other hand they buy products from farmers directly . What they were getting at in Oneida County was to understand exactly this . If we ' re talking about preserving farming it takes more than an agricultural district and more than zoning . That ' s part of it but it takes more than that . Some discussion was held on this by D . Lewis , L . Raymond and others . R . Gleason : Did I understand you right that for the County you do have some of these figures ? D . Lewis : We have trends as far as the Ithaca Urban areas go , .r - housing , number of households , population , what it was before and what we expect up to 1995 and by being aware of pest and future trends that ' s what we base our assumptions for the future on and kind of helps us with policies and to keep the right values in mind . The only thing is you have to be careful because we have an awful lot of information that is not useful . It ' s easy to collect information and then not know what to do with it . I don ' t know how much time we have spent , - -we have shelves of unuseable information so the difficult thing is to really know what information to get that is really pertinent to the matter . I might find someone in the department that can tell you . I don ' t think I can . R . Gleason : I ' ll talk to Teresa and she can talk to the Town Board to see Vhat they have to say and in the meantime we ' ll kind of - - unless someone has something else to do we ' re about done . 10 - J . MacNeil : I have a question . Does anybody know the status of the Lehigh Rail - road that goes through the Town ? The one in McLeaq , - - the reason being there are a bunch of people who want to buy that because they are flooded out in the spring . R . Gleason : About 4 weeks ago the County Board of Representatives voted to allow the land owners association to purchase it but the County had to relinquish their rights before they could negotiate and the County did that about 3 weeks ago and that is how it stands . Do you have anything on that ? D . Lewis : The last I heard looks like the land owners will be getting the land back . R . Gleason : I would suggest you contact one of the fellows Roger Beck or Mr . Perkins who represent the land owners . L . Raymond ; How much of that is in McLean ? J . MacNeil : About 3 miles . R . Gleason : The one outside here has been abandoned and the Town was released and there ' s now the possibility the Town might do something about it - - rather the Village and the Town might but what will happen to the rest of the land is all very indefinite . The Village A4,0 been working on a park outside if you notice . I believe it ' s mentioned in the master plan . Any other questions ? Now , - -who else has not seen this material ? D . Payne ; George hasn ' t seen it . Have you seen it Mary ? M . Adams ; No . R . Gleason : Why don ' t you take it and read it and then give it to Cecil if you see him . M . Adams : Yes . R . Gleason : Then get it to him and ask him to drop it back to me . M . Adams : 0 . K . R . Gleason : In the past Jo Bell has sent the minutes to George who gave them to Don who made xerox copies . I would say if it ' s O . K . with the Board that she send them to me and I will approve them and I believe Colleen will xerox them and she has indicated she ' ll send out meeting notices and if I get to it fast enough will try to have an agenda . You can mail them to me , Jo , at RD 2 Groton , D . Payne made a motion the meeting adjourn which was seconded by J . MacNeil and carried . The meeting adjourned at 10 PM . Res ectfully submitted , Jose hine ell - 11 - i AMENDMENT TO ZONING ORDINANCE OF THE TOWN OF GROTON I 1004 . 8 Motorized Vehicle Repair and Sales j Permitted When : 1 . Applicant and owner be licensed by the State of. New York . } : 2 . Off street parking be provided so that customers do not block roadway with three parking spaces as defined and ordered under the zoning ordinance { for each bay in .workshop . 3 . No junk cars will be stored on the premises for purposes of obtaining parts . 4 . All vehicles of any nature or motorized equipment in need of repair will not be stored on the premises outside of the repair shop for more than seven days . • ' 5 . Signs advertising the repair shop shall be in accordance with Article X.II of the ordinance as ammended . f ' 6 . Natural screening or artificially built screening s $ ` shall be used and constructed to enclosed the t j ; area of storage of any motor vehicles or motorized ! vehicles . being repaired or to be repaired as _ part of the business . Said screening shall be at least eight feet in height and shall extend in all directions . necessary to provide cover from traffic on the adjacent highway or from the adjacent property owners . 3 ` 7 . All other requirements of: the Zoning Ordinance per - i taini.ng to Agriculture District shall apply and be complied with at all times . rj i 1 ' p , j : it t si i s a