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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1978-04-20 INFORMATION MEETING OF THE GROTON TOWN BOARD AND GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD , APRIL 209 1978 - 7 * 40 PM Held at the Town Hall Groton , N . Y . PRESENT : T . Robinson - Town Supervisor R . Gleason - Chairman - Planning Board B . Bucko - Town Attorney G . Totman - Vice- Chairman - " it C . Pierson - Town Clerk C . Twigg - Member - Planning Board R . Walpole - Town Justice D . Payne - it it " V . Rankin - Town Councilman M . . Adams - it " D . VanBenSchoten - Town Councilman Josephine Bell - Recording Clerk Mr . Bush Mr . and Mrs . Haughn Frank Pierson Tom Payne Mr . & Mrs . David Lewis - Tompkins County Planning Board T . Robinson : This is an informational meeting we are having tonight of the Town Board and of the Planning Board and we don ' t need a quorum so will just start right in . Roger Gleason has been elected as the new chairman of the Town Plann- ing Board so will let Roger take over the meeting right now . R . Gleason : As a number of you know , there has been a problem in deciding how to handle some types of business activities in the Town of Groton , particularly the repair businesses . The Planning Board has worked on what to do about this and have come up with a . proposal to resolve the problem of the auto repair services . We hope that it will cover both existing and future problems . Now originally we thought possibly tonight we could cover some other items but after reviewing various parts of our ordinance we decided probably the simplest thing would be to incorporate this repair business item now and then perhaps with the help of the County Planning Office we will review the whole ordinance and make any other changes later as there are a number of items coming up that will be mandated by the State anyways so let ' s get this one out of the way . So , without anything further on that , George Totman has been kind of handling the business of the automotive repair business and , George , if you ' re ready , - - go ahead . G . Totman : You want me to review what we presented to the Town Board at the last meeting ? R . Gleason : Right . G . Totman : Well , in looking at what we were asked to do by the Town Board 1 No G . Totman : - - is to make provision in the Zoning Ordinance so that in certain places of the Town it would be legal to have a motorized vehicle repairs and sales businesses in various parts of the Town , - -which there have been some cropping up in different parts of the Town that didn ' t meet the regulations in the past year or so . What we have done is propose to the Town both a provision for new businesses and a provision for handling the existing businesses that are non- conforming in use . What we have done is give the Town Board a chart to follow which takes it away from the regular procedures of the General Ordinance because it was not in the General Ordinance to begin with and people have moved into areas of the Town with the idea these types of things weren ' t approved and we felt there should be a public hearing so the people in the areas would have a chance to express their opinions . What we have suggested is adding Section 601 . 47 and calling it Motorized Vehicles and Sales Under Special Permit . This will only be issued after a public hearing by the Town Board based on the following . The difference is that usually when you make the application for this it goes to the Zoning Board of Appeals if you get the application from the Enforcement Officer . Here we ' re suggesting it goes to the Town Board because , in our opinion , it ' s a little different case than normal in that ( 1 ) they have to be licensed by the State of New York . If it ' s automobile repair it automatically has to be licensed by the State , ( 2 ) provide off- street parking so customers do not block the roadway , :- :( 3 ) must meet the general requirements under existing rules and regulations of the zoning ordinance and ( 4 ) existing non- conforming motorized vehicle repairs and sales that have come into existence since March 6 , 1972 will have 6 months to conform to the existing regulations . R . Gleason : You mean the proposed regulations ? G . Totman : To the above and existing regulations if this is enacted - - there are existing businesses now that are non - conforming . To become legal in their non- conforming state they will have to make an application for a permit and if the business they are operating conforms with the regulations than that ' s it and they will get their permit and it stops there under this proposal . If they fail to meet any of the regulations ,then that will be up to the Zoning Enforcement Officer and there will be a time limit for them to meet the regulations . If they meet the regulations then it ends , - - if they don ' t it will be referred to the Town Attorney for legal action after the time limit is up . New businesses - - new applications for motorized vehicles repair and sales - - they will make an application out and if the Zoning Enforcement Officer gives preliminary approval it will go to the Town Board and they will hold a public hearing and if they decide in the affirmative then it ' s final . If the Enforcement Officer sees flaws in the application and it becomes a non conform- ing type use he doesn ' t approve it and they can appeal to the Zoning Board of Appeals and if it meets their regulations then it 2 - G . Totman : goes back for the approval of the Town Board and they will hold a public hearing and after the public hearing they can accept * to We think , doing it this way , puts a good control on it and gives the Zoning Enforcement Officer some goals to work with he didn ' t have before . R . Gleason : 0 . K . Are there any questions now about this ? Ben , - -you have looked it over a little bit , - - do you have any comments ? B . Bucko : Yes , I do . Number one - - you ' re going to approve the illegal operations if you want to call them that because this particular category of businesses are allowed only in medium intensity which is better known as the industrial section . You have people up there and , I presume , the feeling is the people are making a living and you don ' t want to kick them out even if they are illegal . You ' re opening up the door to the same type of businesses springing up in the agricultural section so , therefore , you have now changed the comprehensive plan you have had for the Town when you adopted the Zoning Ordinance . If you ' re going to go by special permit then I think you ' ll have to spell out more for - - like take Special Permits - - under the Zoning Ordinance is granted only for the Board of Appeals who are not coming back to the Town Board . The Town Board is the only one that can amend the zoning ordinance after public hearing . I believe in order for it to be valid and give directions to the Zoning Board of Appeals you will have to put some guidelines in for them to follow . R . Gleason ; Right , - - this is where we need legal advice . What we were referring to , - - there are some parts - - two things - - other sections where it refers to Special Permits and things like lot size and so on but rather than start on all that thought should have a discussion . B . Bucko : One thing , - - in deciding these guidelines , I think you will have to consider some of the thingswtha't !_could happen , - -you might be creating junkyards - - in other words if a person is going to repair cars you should have a statement in to say something like he is not to have junk =cars: out there - that all cars should be registered , - - that he is working on , - - that he can ' t accumulate them to take parts out because then he would be running a junkyard . You ' re authorizing people like Mr . Haughn who works on cars - people bring him a car that doesn ' t mean he should go out and get five or ten others to get parts out of and leave the rest of the car there . Mr . Haughn0 I work on ccar.s for dealers too and dealer ' s cars don ' t have plates so you need something in there to that effect also . B . Bucko : Yes , - -but what you really don ' t want to do is - - in other words , - - you ' re in a business to start a junkyard if you ' re working on a car to fix it that ' s one thing but you shouldn ' t be allowed to buy up used cars, and take the parts out . - 3 - ,I Mr . Haughn : Doesn ' t it say you can have one unlicensed car ? I Be Bucko : Two . But the Zoning Ordinance also says shouldn ' t have accumulated junk , garbage and other trash . These are the things I ' m thinking about that may come up and have to be considered . The other thing is are you going to allow - - does everything have to be enclosed - - fenced in - - how much will you allow to accumulate and so forth and these are things the Town Board should establish before holding the hearing in trying to accomplish the goal you want and not create other messes that will get out of hand and have to come back and try to revise them . You ' re going to have people doing things that are illegal - - V . Rankin : Frankly , they already are doing it . Be Bucko : That isn ' t what these people are looking for . They are looking for guidance . In one case they were told they could do it . V . Rankin : That ' s alright but there are so many doing it that don ' t ask nobody . One - - for instance we had a public hearing on - - and he is up there now and has a junkyard and we sit here doing nothing . Be Bucko : You mean the one on Sharpstein Road ? 0 . K . he applied for a junkyard license and was denied it by the Board . A letter was sent to him to clean up in 10 days . He called me up and said the former Zoning Enforcement Officer told him the best thing he could do is get a used car license so I _ said as far as I '; was concerned he was in violation of the ordinance and should come to the Town Board and explain his position and see if he could get any relief but the last word I have is that you ' re going to have to clean this up . If you pass this you cannot say to him no you can ' t do what you ' re doing but you can if you adopt special guidelines saying cannot have any junk cards , - - can work on other people ' s cars but cannot accumulate 4 - 5 cars and say I ' m going to fix them up and sell them . T . Robinson : Don ' t you think some of this should be up to the Enforcement Officer ' s discretion , too ? Be Bucko : The Enforcement Officer is supposed to enforce the ordinance . V . Rankin : You ' re setting here and we asked the Planning Board , who get no money , to make up something to make those guys legal We - to hell with them , - - kick them all out or make them clean up . R . Walpole : I don ' t agree with you , Verl , because the prior Town Supervisor has agreed and issued special permits to some of these people . If the Town Board were to go to Court today,;- - they would be knocked to the floor because the Zoning Officer and the Town Supervisor had already agreed to it . V . Rankin : 0 . K . , - - let ' s let those guys go . R . Walpole : You can ' t do it . Some discussion was held on this by Be Bucko , V . Rankin , R . Walpole and others . - 4 - R . Gleason : I would guess that the Town would vote - - obviously they are using these repair shops so I guess they would vote - - you have here something that is a necessity - - in -effect they have to try to resolve it . We can spend all night talking about it but it ' s water under the dam . At 8 : 45 PM, Mr . Payne is coming to discuss the new assessments . B . Bucko : I would like to discuss what the Planning Board has done and set up guidelines for the Appeals Board to use once they get a request for this type of permit and to put in there the people that are already there conform with stricter rules like what they can have outside , what kind of �car&.� they can store and so forth . T . Robinson : As we have said , - - if you ' ll set up these guidelines , - - V . Rankin : How are we going to enforce these things ? Have never been able to enforce them yet ! B . Bucko : I have been in Court a few times and if you want to go into Court you can . R . Gleason : Let ' s go on and see if we can get to some of these conditions . Really we are going back because if the guy is already here and doesn ' t meet these conditions it automatically puts him out . What I thought , too - - we have some people here tonight - - maybe what we should do is throw out some things and let them bounce back and see if they can live with them and we can live with them . Num- ber one - - Off- Street Parking - for every bay area - - have X amount of parking space . I don ' t know what exactly it should be , - - this can be worked out . Say there ' s room for 2 - 3 cars: . for each area . Mr . Haughn : About 3 for every bay . G . Totman : You ' re talking about minimum standards now? R . Gleason : Minimum standards , - - room for 3 cars for each bay . 0 . K . , - -now this one is going to be one I 11 throw out - - a junkyard has to have an eight foot fence . I don ' t know whether we want to go into that - - maybe some type of landscaping that sort of camouflages it ? Mr . Haughn : I had planned to put pine trees up around my parking area . B . Bucko : The one I would like to get some wording on if we can is that in order to operate this type of business you have to be working on a registered car or :cars, delivered by dealers . D . Payne : What about all unlicensed vehicles should be in running or saleable condition ? Mr . Haughn : A lot of times they aren ' t when they are brought over . T . Robinson : I don ' t quite see that . - 5 - Be Bucko : You cannot accumulate or store cars for the removal of parts . Mr . Haughn : Right . R . Walpole : What about wrecked cars ? R . Gleason : There ' s a problem . For instance some repair shops have wrecker service . Obviously sometimes they can ' t immediately take them to junkyards - - have to wait for insurance agencies and so forth . Will have to have some provision for storage for that sort of thing . Be Bucko : These aren ' t the type of people that are going to get cars like that . We ' re talking about used cars and repair shops not wrecker service . Mr . Haughn : But body shops come under this law - - will have to have something in there for them too because they have them for a month or so waiting for insurance adjusters . Be Bucko : But that car is registered - - if they take the plates off will have to get the car out of there . Some discussion was held on this by C . Twigg , Be Bucko and others . a Mr . Bush : How are we getting off on this junkyard business ? Be Bucko : We ' re trying to prevent it , - -we ' re talking about guidelines for the Board so you don ' t accumulate junk cars and take the parts out . Mr . Bush : I understand that , - - right . Now do you set a limit on the number of cars ? C . Twigg : We decided according to the size of the facility , - - in other words I f he has one bay than can have 3 cars but he has 2 bays can have 6 cars . R . Gleason : That ' s for parking though . s Be Bucko : We don ' t want them stored there . They could be stored there 6 - 7 months and he could say he was waiting for insurance company to give him a settlement . C . Twigg : That isn ' t a real problem . If he has a parking lot and cars are parked there - - what ' s unsightly is if they are upside down or out in a field but if cars are lined up , - - if there ' s some kind of order to it even with a junkyard you expect to see junk cars , - - that ' s what you expect to see - - if you go by a garage you expect to see cars but not piles of junk . B . Bucko : If you don ' t control it and you don ' t get the right wording every Tom , Dick and Harry in the agricultural area will say I ' m going to start up a used car shop and just as a hobby and will end up with 10 cars and his neighbor won ' t like that . Some discussion was held on this by Mr . Bush , R . Walpole , Be Bucko and others . 6 00 B . Bucko : You have to put the entire thing together so it can be written that way then if you do turn it down because it doesn ' t meet this or that requirement then you have something to hang your hat on when you make that decision and if you don ' t will be paying me money to go into Court and as Bob said will fall flat . How far are we going to go with this thing ? R . Gleason : The question - - I guess - - is what the needs are of the people for having something neat and tidy and what the needs of the people are in having some availability of used parts and each garage operates a little differently and for an example I have seen the time when it was very nice that you could get parts out of a used car and I had 2 trucks and made 1 out of them and really in this day and age it ' s an economic necessity to have the availability of used parts but that doesn ' t resolve the problem of how to control it and Ben has a point as to having specifications in the ordinance he can stand on and what really we ' re talking about is to get the two together . We have said three parking spaces for each bay . Supposing we said there will be no junk "carts; that can be in view . If we were to say there would be - - if the area was large enough - - what I 'm thinking of is kind of a mini Junkyard . That isn ' t really what I ' m saying . But would it. be possible to allow :- some cars to be used in that way though they need a criteria of having space and having them screened and that sort of thing ? C . Twigg : We have junkyards if they want to buy used parts that ' s what we have junkyards for . R . Walpole : Are there any guidelines the State or County recommend ? R . Gleason : Only some material I received that I haven ' t had time to go through . The Danby ordinance has some in which they are giving guidelines for lot size - - in other words the bigger the area the further from other things the more lenient they are . R . Walpole : Do you have any with you tonight ? R . Gleason * I have some material here which I only received this afternoon . Mr . Lewis : I don ' t think that will contain the guidelines . B . Bucko : I ' m talking about Mr . Haughn and Mr . Bush - - could you live with the fact that someone brings car in that ' s totalled the provision would be no junk cars stored there for the purpose of taking parts out ? Mr . Haughn : I could . Mr . Bush : Certainly , I could . I could take what I want out of it in a day and get rid of it . It doesn ' t matter . B . Bucko : But there ' s to be no storage of junk cars or abandoned cars or what - ever wording we put in there and also a provision if the car is in- volved in an accident . Mr . Bush : If it ' s totalled and I ' m not going to fix it , it goes right out . - 7 - R . Gleason : You said you could take parts off . What would you do with them then ? Be Bucko : They would go inside . R . Gleason : So what it really amounts to - - could have a storage shed to store used parts . V . Rankin : Would have to have a building permit . R . Gleason : , Again this would depend on the lot size . C . Twigg : If they have room enough . F . Pierson : Haven ' t you got a clause in there if it ' s non- conforming can ' t build on ? G . Totman : They are non- conforming now but once they make the changes can go on if they meet the regulations . Be Bucko : But , Frank , this is specialized for this area , - - it doesn ' t mean that all of the other non- conforming uses can do what these people are doing . F . - Pierson : I know , - -we ' ll get into that next . Mr . Haughn : Rules are not hard to live with if they are enforced . I ' m used to living by rules . I lived in an area where they were tough . We lived by the rules . I went to Board meetings for months and months and months , - - I ' m used to it . If you just set the rules and enforce them . Be Bucko : As far as additional buildings are concerned , - - if they comply with the zoning ordinance in regard to guidelines they can have it . T . Robinson : This is what we ' re here mainly to do , - - to set up rules and have them enforced and something we can live with and for people to make a living because in this area we ' re losing big business and individuals have to make their own livings and this is to help our Town . R . Gleason : Is that satisfactory to everybody anyways about junk cars ? There will have to be a public hearing afterwards anyways . Do you have anything else , Ben ? Be Bucko : You ' re going to have to give the Board some guidelines . R . Gleason : 0 . K . what sort of types of ? B . Bucko ; Another thing = have to have everybody three lots from you and across from you approve it . R . Gleason : I don ' t go for that . V . Rankin : I do . T . Robinson : That isn ' t practical . R . Gleason : What sort of landscaping ? - 8 - Mr . Haughn : Natural , I think , like pine trees . I plan to do that anyways but have to earn a little money first in order to do it . Mr . Bush : In my case you can see the peak of my garage from certain spots . B . Bucko : I ' m not so sure you have to worry about the screening . Mr . Bush : That ' s my home . G . Totman : If it complies with the ordinance , you don ' t need the screening . R . Gleason : What about minimum lot size . Do we want to put something in on that ? B . Bucko : I don ' t see how you can do that because people have their lots now . If there are any new applications could do that for those people . How about fines ? R . Gleason : Right , - - that ' s the other one . Mr . Haughn : You have that in there already and I think it ' s good . T . Robinson : Do you think we can write that up now and then proceed to have the public hearing and at that time there will still be time to make changes ? B . Bucko : How about the amount for the Special Permit - - the fee ? V . Rankin : $ 500 ! T . Robinson : How long is this permit to last ? B . Bucko : One year and renewable . The time limitation on the permit is a year and have to renew it the next year , - - very nominal fee as long as you continue to comply with the ordinance , - - like say $ 5 for renewal . D . Payne : What ' s the fee for a building permit ? B . Bucko : $ 10 . C . Twigg : What ' s the criteria for charging this fee ? Does it cover the Enforcement Officer ' s expenses and for the public hearing and so on , - - in other words - - these permit fees - - what costs do they cover ? B . Bucko : The fee can be enough to cover the cost of the public hearing and the enforcement officer ' s salary and so forth but I don ' t think you ' ll find that ' s a fact because we don ' t get enough to cover these costs . C . Twigg ; That ought to be taken into consideration for the cost of the permit . T . Robinson : If you had to go for a permit , - - the initial permit would have to have a hearing for the first time but for the second time it doesn ' t seem it would be necessary as long as you ' re conforming to the ordinance , - - it would just be a renewal . - 9 - R . Gleason : The first time a higher fee and after that a lesser one . C . Twigg : Right , because the first time would be when work would be done . B . Haughn : Is this only automotive businesses ? C . Twigg : Yes , this is what we ' re talking about now . G . Totman : Every permit has to have a fee . B . Haughn : What about other businesses ? B . Bucko : What other kind ? B . Haughn : You have wood shops , carpenters , builders and all that . Are they paying for permits and fees ? C . Twigg : You guys were the ones that were hurting , - - that ' s what we figured the other night and we wanted to concentrate on all of these but it will take more time and you guys are the ones that have been hurting worst for the longest time which is why we ' re taking just this one up for now . B . Haughn : But you intend to do it? R . Gleason : Right , but it will take a long time . B . Bucko : Junkyards have to pay a fee , too . My recommendation to the Board would be the initial fee of $ 10 and renewal fee of $ 5 because the Zoning Officer is going to have to go out and check every year . B . Haughn : The State license is 2 years for the $ 100 . B . Bucko : We ' re a little different `from the State because we want to be sure you comply with the zoning ordinance . Some discussion was held on this by B . Bucko , B . Haughn and others . R . Gleason : Are there any other things we have to cover ? Mr . Lewis is here from the County Planning Office - - Mr . Lewis do you have any comments ? D . Lewis : I think the primary concern here is the total plan you have for the Town . You have an agricultural district and it was made that for a reason - - you wanted low intensity so to speak , - - so the whole thing we ' re trying to do is allow for an activity that wasn ' t anticipated but at the same time 'completely - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - of what we want to have the Town look and function like . So with a special permit like someone mentioned when you ' re talking about signs , setback and so on - - that ' s all taken care of . All that special permit is going to do is allow certain type of activity that wasn ' t allowed there previously and so when deciding on what restrictions to include the only thing you have to worry about are additional things that aren ' t covered in the agricultural area and think of anything you can ` anticipate completely unique to this business like you have been talking about that would change the atmosphere and that ' s O . K . and it Sounds like you ' re doing fine . By September lst will have to make changes 1 0 - D . Lewis : anyways because will have to be in compliance with the State ' s Environmental Quality Review Act so if anyone is coming in with a business they have a Type I Section list of impact might have on the environment and will have to have a way of reviewing that and , another thing , flood hazard around creeks - - will have to check that out , too . But if you want something to function just keep in mind what you want in the district and how it can fit in . You have it mostly taken care of with your setback and signs and so forth . R . Gleason : 0 . K . D . Lewis : One other comment , if it ' s not enforced then the people who are obeying the law are losing out on the competitive market - - you have to have enforcement . T . Robinson : That ' s what we ' re here for . R . Gleason : Do you have something you want to say , Frank ? F . Pierson : No . R . Gleason : Anything else? Be Bucko : May 1st is the Town Board Meeting . I ' ll try to get some guidelines to pass around to be considered and the Board can set up a hearing date with 10 days ' notice . T . Robinson : 0 . K . Be Bucko : I ' ll try to get it to the Planning Board , too , so if they want to come to the meeting the first . Some discussion was held on this by B . Bucko , C . Twigg , R . Gleason and others . R . Gleason : It looks like , - -we ' re going to have to , - - as Mr . Lewis mentioned , - - these new things coming up , - - are going to require some writing . C . Pierson : How much help can you give us ? We have adopted SEQUR Regulations and what we say is anything in Part I have to have an impact state - ment , - -anything- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - in this Town may have to have an impact statement but it ' s the agency that decides it so we have already had that but nobody has been enforcing it . R . Gleason : That ' s all we need to do . D . Lewis : You just need an amendment put in there . B . Bucko : Right . The Zoning Board of Appeals - '�- if somebody comes in with an application they must abide by SEQUR Regulations too so the Zoning Board of Appeals may ask the applicant to give them an environmental impact statement . D . Lewis : You can ask for an impact statement any time . R . Gleason : What about guidelines for writing them? - 11 - r D . Lewis ; We ' re busy right now - - the best way to do it would be to request Mr . Liguori for help on it and he can get you help . B . Bucko ; You ' re talking about the SEQUR requirements ? D . Lewis ; Right and flood zones and anything else . B . Bucko ; I think we should send you a copy of our resolution . D . Lewis ; I also need a new copy of your ordinance , - - I have a 1972 one . B . Bucko ; It says 1972 but the amendments are all in there . T . Robinson ; If this is all we have for now we ' ll adjourn and go into an executive session on' the assessment . The meeting adjourned at 8 : 45 P . M . Respectfully submitted , 'Josephine Bell 12 -