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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1978-03-07 e TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD MEETING Held at Town Hall , Groton , N . Y . at 8 * 00 PM Tuesday - March 7 , 1978 PRESENT : G . Totman - Chairman* T . Robinson - Groton Town Supervisor* Do Payne* J . MacNeil* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* L . Raymond* M . Adams Co Twigg R . Gleason* * - Denotes those present G . Totman ; 0 . K . We have 5 out of 7 members here . I have to apologize I had the minutes of the last meeting all laid out along with everything but forgot to bring then . But I did bring everything else . I think what we ' ll do is start out tonight and have Lyle tell us about the meeting he went to in Auburn . L . Raymonds :. Alright , - - I brought back a pile of paper like everybody else does that go to those meetings . (Mr . Raymond passed out xeroxed copies of articles regarding the Water Shed meeting to all present . He also passed out copies of various other papers he had picked up while there . L . Raymond : They had all kinds of stuff and some of it was on Skaneateles Lake Water Shed and they were using that as a _kind of a guide for the Owasco Valley Water Shed . What it boils down to is in the newspaper items . They have passed a law in the City of Auburn to safeguard what they consider is the quality of the water in Owasco Lake that is being used for the water supply for the City of Auburn . Without going to the newspaper articles per se my part in it was I got to the meeting a bit late because it was a snowy , nasty night and the meeting had already started when I arrived . They spent a lot of time talking about the - - - - - - - - - - - hostory apparently of the water shed controls and the Skaneateles Lake Water Shed and had people there from Skaneateles which is the water supply for the City of Syracuse and they were indicating that these controls had worked very well over the years and the people in the Skaneateles Lake Water Shed had learned to live with these and that they don ' t foresee any particular difficulties based on the - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - in the Skaneateles Water Shed if had similar rules and controls in the Owasco Lake Water Shed . That was the message they were conveying at the meeting in Auburn that night . I listened in on this and heard discussions taking place . There were people there ( as mentioned in the newspaper article I passed out ) from the Village of Groton mainly that were concerned with the sewage treatment plant . Also there were people there from Moravia . I gather from the questions that were asked that they were also concerned about the Moravia Sewage Treatment Plant . L . Raymond : About three- quarters of the way , or 80% of the way through the meeting I decided to ask a few questions and that is how the newspaper remarks came about . I had heard mostly discussion about the possible regulations . Throughout the meeting a number of people were concerned over possible controls of land use as it might affect farmers and land use in the water shed . As I recall that was the principal point I heard discussed , otherwise just village concerns on sewage treatment plants . They spent quite a little time indicating that even though Cayuga County , which includes the lake itself in its entirety , should go along with the City of Auburn through their Health Department and pass the regulations that this would not affect the portions of the 2 other counties that form part of the Owasco Water Shed unless the health departments of Tompkins County and Onondaga County also adopted similar regulations and any violations of the lake would be dealt with by the health department in the respective county involved . In other words one of the bones of contention was if somebody from Cayuga County Health Department might come to Groton to tell them what to do and the answer was absolutely not , it would be the responsibility of the agency from each county . The State Health Department , under their sanitary code , has a procedure whereby water shed used as water supply for more than one county can adopt regulations and the State Health Commissioner on being satisfied all the jurisdictions involved are in agreement will then issue his proclamation incorporating it within the State sanitation code and then any complaints about violations go to the local health department so , in effect , they become State Health Regulations but the County health departments would be the ones to enforce them unless the violation was persistent and repeated calls didn ' t bring any remedial action then it could be taken to the State Health Department which would then , I understand , go to the Courts but they put heavy reliance on the local health departments so spent quite a lot of time on that particular aspect . The newspaper report that included my name came about because as I said about 80% through the meeting listening to the discussions I became quite concerned about what they were passing regulations for . I asked questions merely to clarify things . They had had other meetings and I needed it clarified as I only picked up bits and pieces from what I thought I had heard . Mainly I began by asking if the purpose of the purported regulations were solely to protect the water supply for the City of Auburn and not for any other purpose and I was told that was correct . I then asked from some other remarks I had heard if I had understood correctly the quality of the water in Owasco Lake presently met all of the minimum State requirements for a water supply and I was told again that that was correct so then I asked the obvious question what was the problem they were addressing in proposing the regulations . I was given an answer which I will give in consolidated form - - there had been several studies of the lake in recent years - - Professor Greer of Auburn Community College , Professor Miller of Eisenhower College and emphasis was put upon one by Professor Ray Oglesby of Cornell University . According to what I was told the conclusions from these studies were that even though the lake was still of a high enough quality to meet minimum State standards for water supplies that a deterioration in the quality of the water had been detected and the 2 - L . Raymond : purpose of the proposed regulations was mostly to preserve the existing quality of the water rather than to correct some deficiency in the water . I therefore followed this up with another question , since I felt I had been given a general answer in that the quality of the water in the lake was deteriorating from some step in the past which they didn ' t specify , then I asked what specific contamination or chemical substance were responsible for the deterioration . I asked this from personal knowledge that you can ' t say it ' s deteriorat - ing unless there is some chemical substance responsible for this . I did not receive a satisfactory answer . They mainly referred to these studies again and the fact that the general quality of the lake should be preserved so I suggested one to them based on knowledge I had . I knew that phosphorous was the leading culprit , that is mentioned in studies of lakes in this area , and this is the primary substance res - ponsible for deterioration of lake water quality and they allowed yes that this was probably a factor . They qualified their answer . I then followed up with one more statement . I said that I had understood that phosphorous indeed was the culprit but is not harmful to human health . They admitted that that was so . I might add that my questions had caused some consternation on the faces of those holding the meeting so I felt I had gone far enough and suggested that I was not trying to belabor the proposal for regulations but that I was trying to find out in more precise terms what the cause and effect relationship might be between the regula- tions and contaminants that might be affecting the water . I called Teresa the next morning , right after the meeting , because I found out that after I had made these remarks and created a lot of attention a man sidled up to me and said he was from the Ithaca Journal . He wanted to know who I was and who I represented and the results of the information I gave him is in this article . In relating this I don ' t have a verbatim transcript of what I said so am giving you an interpreted rendition the best I can . G . Totman : It sounds like we picked a very good person to go up there and represent us , wouldn ' t you say so , Teresa ? T . Robinson : I know we did . Mr . Raymond spoke further on water sheds and materials he has on hand regarding Owasco Lake situation and that he doesn ' t think the quality of the water in Owasco Lake has changed to any great extent in the last 60 years . G . Totman : Did you register your name so you will be notified of their future meetings ? L . Raymond : Yes , as I recall , I did . I see in the follow-up article of the newspaper , apparently they are going to invite somebody from the Tompkins County Health Department to work with their committee in putting together some sort of regulations if I understand the newspaper article correctly . - 3 - G . Totman : 0 . K . , - -Teresa , it ' s your intent to have us have Lyle follow through on these meetings and represent the Town ? T . Robinson : I think it ' s something we will have to deal with sooner or later and we might better keep him on it . G . Totman : I detect from your feelings that you don ' t think the lake is bad enough to warrant restrictions now on the studies that have been made ? L . Raymond : I would go along with what I think Professor Oglesby mentioned to me . He said that any problems that he foresaw affecting the future quality of Owasco Lake should be taken care of properly by some very simple actions . Actions that most of us could think of without too much trouble . One was to keep development off steep slopes in the immediate vicinity of the lakes where the towns come down to the water ' s edge and also to spend a little time working with septic tank systems that are used in the immediate vicinity of the lake . That ` s my phraseology on it , - -activities in the immediate vicinity s of the lake shore . G . Totman : That ' s the point I was going to get at , - -more and more will see activities nearer the lake . They can be trailer parks right at the side of the lake and you can very quickly see where sewage problems can get to be a real hazard . L . Raymond ; I guess I would add that in the proposals they were talking about at the meeting , - - enforcement would be through a system of water shed inspectors such as they have in the Skaneateles Lake water shed . They would be hired and compensated primarily by the City of Auburn since it ' s their water supply and these inspectors would spend their time going around trying to identify pollution problems that would affect the lake . I think another factor we should consider that was mentioned at the meeting and that is who pays for the cost of preserving the quality of Owasco Lake in the direction we are going in . Costs to the City of Auburn and costs to everybody in the water shed depending on how you cut the pie . It was indicated that the City of Auburn feels if the lake should deteriorate through unwise development and land use might well have to add a treatment facility beyond what they have already and they figure it would be cheaper to hire inspectors rather than build another treatment plant . That ' s fine for them but it would put the cost on all those in the water shed . Maybe there are other benefits involved and it ' s a valid approach but nevertheless I don ' t think it belies - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - that it ' s cheaper to hire inspectors than to build another facility . There are a lot of factors involved . G . Totman : We appreciate your thorough report and I ' m sure we ' ll hear more if you get notified there are other meetings and will go to them . L . Raymond ; I suspect it looks like they will come up with recommendations for regulations . G . Totman : If this goes on it might be beneficial to have Lyle make the report - 4 - G . Totman : to the Town Board so they will know what is going on . L . Raymond : The Town of Dryden is also involved , or at least a little bit of it . Some discussion was held by L . Raymond , J . MacNeil , G . Totman and others on this . G . Totman : At the last meeting we had , we discussed briefly , because we didn ' t really have a quorum , the problem we have , and the Town has , on the unplanned growth of small businesses in the Town which have been let go by regardless of what restrictions there are in our ordinance and now we have got to take a look at the ordinance and see what we can do to change it to permit some small home- town businesses in our Town and /or I guess I should say make what has been happening in the last couple of years legal so we can go from there if that is the right way to do it . The 3 of us that were at the last meeting left with the idea that we would come tonight with some ideas and suggestions that we could put together and maybe talk over with the Town Board . At the last meeting there was Roger , myself and Lyle and I made Don aware of what we talked about and he told Jim about it so we all came tonight with the idea that we would talk about this problem that we have . D . Payne : Where is the Town Attorney? G . Totman : I talked to him on Friday but he has a previous commitment . So , basically , just to bring us up to date , - -what we are talking about is in the agricultural zone it does not permit small businesses like body repair shops , car repairs and things of that nature . What criteraa was used when we left those out of the agricultural zone I don ' t remember and when Roger and I talked about it neither one of us could remember why it wasn ' t in there . That would have solved our problems . It does have to do with restrictions which if you allowed in agricul - tural zone would have junkyards and so on so what we have to do is come up with something to change the present ordinance which will ' stand up in the Courts which will make people in the Town happy and which the Town Board can see as feasible to make into law and I think in making these suggestions and proposals we have to bear in mind that a lot of people moved into an area because they liked the way that area was zoned and didn ' t want something like that next door to them . It ' s surprising to me the number of people who have real estate agents check to see what is there before they buy and I can see some - one very unhappy who has bought there and the ordinance is changed and it ' s made legal . So I think what we should do first of all is listen to some ideas the five of us make and Josephine will write them down so everyone can read them and I really believe we should have another meeting in a couple of weeks to go back over it so before the next Town Board meeting we can present them with some kind of suggestions from the Planning Board to help them alleviate the problem the Town has . Do you have any comments on that , Teresa? T . Robinson : The only thing is you are going to have to deal with the junkyard ordinance too because that is something there are a lot of violations on . 5 - 'tt G . Totman ; What do you think the Planning Board can do on the violations if the enforcement officer doesn ' t press charges on the people who are in violation ? T . Robinson : I ' m not exactly sure . I had a couple of things presented to me . But you have some businesses that are in violation and also small individuals in violation . It encompasses from the top to the bottom and you can ' t hit one and not hit them all . I don ' t think it ' s fair . There has to be something - - some kind of a - - a lot of the bigger businesses are the ones we are getting tax monies from , - - actually bring more tax money into the Town than any other organiza- tions we have so we don ' t want to cut them out . G . Totman : You want to make it fair for everybody? T . Robinson : Right . I know it ' s a definite problem and we have to . come up with some kind of a solution . It ' s ridiculous , -- either we ' re going to have one or not . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , T . Robinson , R . Gleason and others , and a beautification project was also discussed which might possibly be an answer . G . Totman : The problem we have before you go after these people too strongly because they are a good tax base , - -you have to make sure the enforcement officer is doing his job in the rest of the Town . T . Robinson : Right now I haven ' t seen him recently . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , T . Robinson and others . G . Totman : I think what we ' re really supposed to be doing tonight is talking about the businesses that are in the town . We have some people that want to start a business in Town and are waiting patiently to be able to apply for a permit when they know full well others are doing it without one . There is one guy , whose name is Hank Bush , who has been waiting for over a year to start a small repair business in an agricultural zone and a half a mile away from him is the same type of business operating with the sanction of the Town Board without even a permit . So I can ' t imagine why he didn ' t just start it up but he ' s waiting to have the law changed so he can do it legally . But , maybe , he ' s waiting to challenge this so Town Board has asked us to make suggestions back to them as to how the ordinance can be changed to somehow let more small businesses in the Town yet not devaluate properties already there . So we were supposed to bring ideas tonight . I have one but would like to hear everyone else ' s first . Don ? D . Payne : I don ' t know . There ' s a problem and that is you have some people that we know are running small businesses illegally and doing it intentionally and whatever you do you ' re letting them off the hook . J . MacNeil ; What kind can you have there ? - 6 - R . Gleason : Farm repair is 0 . K . D . Payne : But automobile is not . L . Raymond ; If the guy does both ? R . Gleason : Actually that ' s a good question . D . Payne : The thing to do is probably have some type of situation where you would make certain businesses - - we would have to do a lot more talking about that , too - - make certain businesses legal in the agricultural zone but make it by special permit only with a public hearing and this , of course , would let the people in the area voice their opinions as to whether that is the type of business they would want in their neighborhood but , again , the problem is what about the existing businesses and I think it ' s really a shame to let some of these people that are running them and know there are doing it illegally completely off the hook . R . Gleason : Maybe though we ' re stumbling over an ant hill and not looking at the whole mountain and maybe can solve the other one . What I ' m saying is 0 . K . , - - there are some violations - - I don ' t know what we can do about them , - -maybe you can let them off the hook , maybe not , - -but the problem is to my way of thinking we need these because they are good for the community up to a certain point and we should not penalize the ones that should do it right , - -maybe this will let some off the hook but let ' s look at the whole thing , - -maybe it will fall into place later . G . Totman : Jim , do you have any ideas ? J . MacNeil : Not really , but maybe there ' s a long - - - - - - - - - - - - - answer , - - maybe eventually the business would change hands and could enforce the ordinance then . G . Totman : What would happen if you made , - - for example , - take Hawns on the road you live on , - -Lafayette Road . They would be they are there now and you change the ordinance so a new business like that would become legal upon public hearing by the Town Board and a vote by the Town Board can make it legal or illegal and these people are already there , - - an existing business before the Town Board made this ruling , - - they would be a nonconforming use and in order to add to those or expand to them would also need a public hearing , - - they could remain where they are but couldn ' t expand without a public hearing and those businesses that are already there would have to abide by the rules and regulations set for new ones , - - set up with a special permit . That would be the way I would look at it . Lyle ? L . Raymond ; I haven ' t given it much thought , yet . I have to the water , though . I guess Roger did give me a thought - - they - - most of these violations are in the agricultural zone , are they ? 7 - G . Totman : Yes , - - the ones we ' re talking about now are . L . Raymond : The purpose of the agricultural zone is for agriculture obviously , - - are theae businesses hurting agriculture ? I guess that would be the point I would be thinking of . If that is the purpose of the zoning for that area , what activities would hurt agriculture in the area , - - which ones would hurt it , - - are they hurting it in the same way it would if breaking up farms to too many houses ? Is this a factor ? I ' m going back to basics rather than individual violations . G . Totman : 0 . K . , --Roger , any other thoughts on it ? R . Gleason : What is the basis of our original zoning ? What reason under the comprehensive plan did we have ? What are the objectives ? To preserve agriculture and also it was insthere somewhere to keep that area attractive for rural residences . L . Raymond : That was what I was asking . R . Gleason : I think that would have to be included in there . Before we have always talked about this and Bucko says if we did anything it ' s spot zoning and we can ' t do it . D . Payne : I think he ' s talking about if you allow one business in a certain section of the Town . R . Gleason : I understood him to say if we went to work and added it to the list of things that we couldn ' t do it . G . Totman : At the meetings I went to in New York , -- I suppose we would have to get another attorney to listen to it , - -you put in that land use regulation and certain things for certain areas but a public hearing from the Town Board they can add to or subtract from that . If you follow what is happening in the City of Cortland , what we aredoing is - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - . Dryden changes their ordinance 2 - 3 times a year . Some discussion was held on this by all . D . Payne : This goes back long before I was chairman of the planning board . Junkyards were in violation and small businesses that weren ' t approved , all that was going on then and now . If changes were made in the zoning ordinance , would we be assured that these changes would be legally upheld in the Town? T . Robinson : There ' s no sense in doing this if we ' re not going to follow through . This is what we had the meeting for the other day to discuss what I want and I ' m sure the Town Board does too - - the policies and regulations that we have if they are violated we will follow through on them . In that way it ' s not that we want to be hard on people but should be rules and regulations and the people should conform to them . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , T . Robinson and others . G . Totman : Basically I think we ' re all pretty much in agreement , - -what we are thinking about , - -what we are going to suggest . - 8 - G . Totman : I don ' t see that we can do too much with what is there . Some were told by public officials it was O . K . to go there which is not right but they are there and put money into the place and started businesses . Some are nice and good to have in the neighborhood , - - other ones aren ' t . Nevertheless if you have an ordinance at all you have to enforce it . Going by what Teresa says if they are going to - - I went to the Town Board meeting last night to just get an idea mainly what the Town is thinking and doing and what they are going to do about these problems and usually you can plan on about an hour but at this Town Board meeting jt lasted until about a quarter of eleven and they went through every part of this Town and it was quite interesting be- cause for the first time I saw people really talking and disagree- ing on things , - -not a rubber stamp affair . I think it ' s very health , - - at least it shows that they are sitting there with some thoughts of the people they are representing . They talked about zoning and enforcement and lack of activity of enforcement and they have another problem , - - dogs , - - can ' t get anyone to enforce their leash law but still I ' m brining this up to say I was en- couraged when I went home . When 9 PM came nobody stood up and said they had to leave to go bowling , etc . They stayed to the end and I never saw that happen before but they are waiting for us and would like us to make recommendations in writing so these people who are trying to be legal and waiting can do something this spring and after we make our recommendations they have to approve them , change them or make modifications and then hold a public hearing which will take about 2 months or so sottbe time is here and now so guess what I ' m saying is we ' re going to have to have another meeting , sit down and draft what we will present to the Town Board . If we discuss it thoroughly tonight should be able to do this in a couple of weeks . Hopefully will have the lawyer here , --may have to show it to him but then let him show us the legal way he thinks it should be done . Lots of times we can draw our own opinions , - -we can listen to the legal opinion but can still use our own . The only solution I see is to adding in the agricultural zone some- thing in the nature of a small business and in so stating it would have to define what we call a small business . What are we going to call a small business ? And in doing so stating that this will be permissible with a special permit and in order to get the special permit the application , in my opinion , would have to go through the Town Board under this special permit . The Town Board would be required to call a public hearing and notify all the land owners adjacent to that property on both sides of the road and after that the Town Board could make their decision . I think that way it would give the people that moved into the area that don ' t want this sort of thing a chance to voice their opinions . I think we have to make some sort of statement in here if it ' s not already covered in the ordinance . What is there , up to this point , is there but from this point on the rules and regulations that are set forth for these proposed small businesses should specify how far from the road , how many unlicensed cars can they have without having to license them , and I don ' t think it should all be directed towards repair shops . The general remarks that are made would apply to - 9 - i C G . Totman : everybody and they would have to comply with them . L . Raymond ; You mean in all zones ? G . Totman : I ' m talking about the businesses there now that are not quite legal . We ' re talking about the agricultural zone . L . Raymond ; Not for all . G . Totman : Right . R . Gleason : I would think you would have to be fair and look at some of the criteria in the commercial zone . I think you should take a look at that , - - it would not be as restrictive in a commercial zone as in an agricultural zone . G . Totman : Once we get this done the Town Board has also asked us to look at the rest of the Town and , of course , when we make recommendations have to have something to back you up as to why you are doing this but to make recommendations for a proposed change in the zoning ordinance to allow more commercial zoning activities for potential new businesses , like for example to go to the original ordinance from the Village line out 222 to any point and said this is going to be commercial and stopped it right there . Put a little commercial spot in the Village of McLean but from the village going out this way could very well go towards 38 , towards Peru` ville Road , - - could very well put a commercial zone or something the other way and they want us to look at that after they get this problem solved . But when making changes . and adding to commercial zoning by rules and regulations in there then I think we could address ourselves to that problem up there . R . Gleason : I think since we do have this problem , -- should get right at it , - - but , - -O .K . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , D . Payne , L . Raymond and others . - G . Totman : In the meantime back to our other problem . We can sit here and ponder on it tonight . It ' s 9 * 30 or we can come and address our next meeting just to that , - - if we all agree here tonight 5 out of 7 on the Board basically what everyone of us has said about how to change this thing to make it legal is basically the same . So if we can come to the next meeting and have that the only thing on the agenda and put it in writing I think then it would look like we ' re doing something more businesslike . Let ' s work on this for the next couple of weeks and get it finished up say in 2 weeks meet again , - - is the 21st alright ? Some discussion was held on how to write it up and pre- sent the changes and that it might be best to just write it up without the Town attorney coming to the meeting if he couldn ' t and present what was decided on to the Town Board who could then have the attorney look it over for any necessary changes . Mr . Totman discussed SEQRA briefly and said the Planning 10 Board should study this and be aware of all the implica- tions and also the Environmental Impact Studies . He also said he thought it would be helpful to have a meet - ing with other Planning Boards to go over this and to bring any written material they have on it that will make it more easily understandable . Some discussion was held on these subjects by all . D . Payne made the motion that the meeting adjourn which was seconded by J . MacNeil and carried . The next meeting will be Tuesday March 21 , 1978 . The meeting adjourned at 10 PM Respectfully submitted , n p Jo ephine Bell - 11 -