HomeMy WebLinkAbout1978-02-07 L
GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING
Held at the Town Hall
Groton , N . Y .
Tuesday - February 7 , 1978 - 8 PM
PRESENT : G . Totman - Chairman*
L . Raymond*
R . Gleason*
J . McNeil
C . Twigg
M . Adams
D . Payne
J . Bell - Recording Clerk*
* - Denotes those present .
G . Totman ; We have to have 4 members present to hold an official meeting - -
why don ' t we just start . We ' ll have Jo take notes just like
at a regular meeting .
(Mr . Totman handed out copies of the minutes of the
last meeting and the following corrections were
made : Page 7 bottom line changed to G . ' Totman from
L . Raymond and should come after L . Raymond ' s question
at the top of page 8 . Also throughout the minutes
G . Worga should be changed to G . Wargo . )
G . Totman ; I ' ve made some notes of the things we talked about at the in-
formation meeting we had with the Town Board . Both of you
were at that meeting , the rest of the Planning Board members
were not , so there isn ' t much sense going over those notes so
will wait and see if anyone comes before going over them .
Now here are some things that might be of interest . You
were talking about environmental charts , - - they ' re having a
meeting in Auburn on the Owasco Lake Water Shed Study Group
on February 22nd at 7 : 30 PM at the Cayuga County office build -
ing . Lyle , would you be interested in going to that ?
L . Raymond ; Yes . I don ' t live in the Owasco Lake Water Shed ,
G . Totman : But you do live in the Town of Groton . The reason that the Town
Supervisor won ' t be going , or any other representatives of the
Town , is that they will be going to New York City at that time .
L . Raymond : So you would like me to go to represent the Town Planning Board
and take notes ?
G . Totman : Yes .
L . Raymond : I ' ll be glad to .
G . Totman ; And get us some notes so we can give them in our monthly report .
I have one other thing that might be interesting . There ' s a
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G . Totman : meeting this coming Saturday in Binghamton called the Coopera-
tive Extension Second Annual Mobile Home Conference sponsored by
the New York Mfg . Housing Association and the U . S . Small Busi -
ness Association of the New York - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - and the
Association of Towns and Counties .
They really have quite an agenda . It ' s all about investment
and return on mobile home parks and I suppose they will get
into rules and regulations of park owners and how they re-
late back to others and our County Health Commissioner is going
to be the speaker on health and Garth Jackson of the Dryden Bank
will speak on the availability of capital and programs they have
for that type of thing . So if anybody wants to go to it , that ' s
that .
L . Raymond : It ' s all relating to mobile home parks ?
R . Gleason : It ' s also for people who are involved in planning .
L . Raymond ; Mobile Home Parks - - you look at a rural town like Groton and
mobile home parks are not Groton ' s main problem . Most of the
trailers going in here are on single lots . I suppose it ' s a
problem in larger cities like Ithaca - -
G . Totman : You can change that by going to some of those meetings and com-
plain about it . I went to a meeting in Binghamton about 10
years ago put on by the New York Association of Cemeteries because
I wanted to learn about cemeteries and the whole thing was
directed towards cemeteries for profit and yet they encouraged
everybody to go . They passed out a sheet for comments and in-
stead of using it I wrote them a letter and explained my reason
for going and the following spring they had a seminar for small
cemeteries . I got a very nice letter back from the secretary
and as I said the following spring they did have another one on
small cemeteries and I felt quite proud of that .
L . Raymond : I think that an awful lot of the time though there ' s a bias .
They are looking for the greatest number of people they can
attract and you end up with orientation programs for larger
or urban towns and the small rural towns have problems some -
what similar but just a little different and they are overlooked .
R . Gleason : . Maybe it should be sent back with a note that we cannot attend but
would be interested in other seminars .
G . Totman : If you ' re interested I have notes on the Tompkins County Planning
Board meetings . Many of their problems are centered around the
City of• Ithaca . Of course their new Route 13 is a little
different and they are supposed to have a report on the� lasto
meetings - the'y have had with the County Council at their meeting
tomorrow night . Unfortunately , the Town of Groton doesn ' t have
a member on the Board of the Route 13 Committee . The new Route
13 has a great bearing on the Town of Groton and how close it
will come to the Town . So I called Teresa yesterday and asked
her if they didn ' t have anybody to pick somebody from the Planning
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G . Totman : Board so someone would have some input for the Town of Groton but
I didn ' t hear anything at their meeting last night on this so what
they did , I don ' t know .
If anybody is interested in this Binghamton meeting I ' ll xerox it
and you can take it home and look at it .
If our full board had been here tonight I thought maybe we could
work on some of the problems that were brought up at the joint
Town Board and Planning Board meeting . I got the feeling from
them that they wanted us to make some recommendations as to
clarifications and changes in the zoning ordinance as they relate
to small business shops in the Town and updating the zoning map .
That really is the responsibility of the Planning Board although
the Town Board has done it in the past and they have the map made
up . The map ' s a little out of date now and should be done by a
professional if they want it done right .
In the mobile home ordinance the Enforcement Officer is having a
problem clarifying what is the right type of footing and as it
reads in there I guess if you remember what he was saying - - it
was recommended by most of us that were here that night that if you
changed it to read "permanent type of footing " and let him use his
discretion . His question was that people had requested him to make
a decision on what they wanted to put in - railroad type instead of
concrete which , in my book , would be stronger than the pad .
R . Gleason : That was what I wanted to add in the first place - - more or less a
discretionary thing and the description drawn up by an engineer .
G . Totman : It ' s got to be so thick and so far into the ground . It ' s no good
if it ' s sitting on top of ther,ground .
R . Gleason : A floating slip is alright if it ' s done properly but just to pour
a bunch of concrete on the ground isn ' t doing it properly .
L . Raymond : What we ' re talking about here , - - it appears to me , - - is the
difference between an absolutely spelled out standard everybody
has to meet and something called a performance standard in which
case there isn ' t any explicit defined type of stand but whatever
you put in has to meet certain performance type standards which
is the crux of what we ' re talking about here . I brought the
ordinance along with me tonight having attended the discussion
meeting and I quote here " . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
In my opinion the wording of the present ordinance is sort of a com-
promise between performance standard and one that says explicitly
what you should have . It says : "a mobile home should be of dur -
able material , "- -but it doesn ' t say what the material should be .
Some discussion was held on this by all present .
L . Raymond ; If you listened to the man at the last meeting who I understand was
having some difficulty on the spot when he comes up against these
decisions I wonder whether he should have some engineering assist -
ance on that at times ? It says here " . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . " but
maybe it might be wise in certain cases - - maybe for the first time
he encounterers the problem of the use of some type of material or
design he hasn ' t run into before , - -maybe you could take him off the
hook by saying have an engineer who is familiar with this give an
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L . Raymond : opinion on the matter to guide our officer and then he would
have that guide and I presume the engineer wouldn ' t have to do
that again .
R . Gleason : The State has a standard , I believe , for mobile home siting .
L . Raymond ; I would assume siting means what type of terrain , soil con-
ditions and so on .
R . Gleason : But it also includes the type of foundations .
L . Raymond : Possibly . That could be ferreted out .
R . Gleason : I may even have that book at home .
L . Raymond : I was only suggesting that , - - I put myself in the shoes of the
man who has to go out and OK the guy says I am going to do
this and want to do it this way , - - something new that he hasn ' t
had experience with before . It looks alright but how does he
know and this way we could take him off the hook .
R . Gleason : I think you have a point . The way it is now somebody can go
and level off a spot and throw a little concrete in and meet
this and this isn ' t permanent .
L . Raymond ; Where I got the idea from , - - I worked with Federal Flood Plan
Standards and I know that they have gone in the direction of
saying where there is a question on the standards the opinion
of a qualified engineer or architect will be considered and
we could do the same here locally . Seems like someone here
could provide that kind of opinion to guide our enforcement
officer on this and take him off the hook on some of those
decisions because I think he would find them difficult .
R . Gleason : Right , and he ' s in a position where he could be in trouble .
L . Raymond : We could add that in here on mobile home standards saying
where there is a question as to whether the proposed type
of stand would be constructed so will meet these requirements
then the opinion of a professional engineer or architect
will be sought .
R . Gleason : I think you have a point . May I look at that for a second ?
L . Raymond : Sure , - - I brought it to use for discussion .
R . Gleason : Actually the way this reads , - - it says durable material , - - it
doesn ' t say concrete .
L . Raymond : I ' m not sure you should spell it out , - - I ' m agreeable to
the word durable but he needs some guidance on interpreting
that and I have a feeling - - how many alternate types of
stands would you expect to run into , - -maybe half a dozen ?
G . Totmant What page is that on ?
L . Raymond : Page 10 and if we go to the expense of having an engineer ' s
opinion wouldn ' t have to more than 2 or 3 times and after
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L . Raymond : that you would have it and it would provide him and the Town with
some backing . As I said I have a feeling it would only have to be
done once for each particular design .
R . Gleason ; You could even go a little farther than that and have some suggested
designs . That wouldn ' t limit it but , again , would give Brown some
criteria , wouldn ' t it ?
G . Totman : It doesn ' t say pad , - -
R . Gleason : It just says durable .
Some discussion was held on this by all present .
R . Gleason ; Do we have the minutes of the information meeting ?
J . Bell ; No , I gave them to the Town Board .
G . Totman ; Teresa said she would give me a copy of them and I forgot to
ask her for it .
L . Raymond : Maybe it ' s not critical to our discussion at the moment . I
would suggest that if we did that we wouldn ' t have to change
this language at all , -- just add 2 or 3 sentences about
qualified engineer .
G . Totman ; The Town Board would have to decide that . This is one of the
reasons why the State said it should be a person with en� ineer -
ing background to be the zoning enforcement officer . This is
why they had trouble appointing him because he doesn ' t have any
background at all . The way that reads now I wouldn ' t have the
questions he had .
L . Raymond ; It says "durable " . That could be a word that could be taken to
court . Maybe what we should do is add a time period as to what
we mean by durable , - - some might mean 5 , 102 25 or 50 and that
way if you need to consult an engineer saying our ordinance
says should be durable material that should last 20 years and
the enforcement officer isn ' t sure it would last he could ask
the engineer for his opinion . Then he would give him his
opinion and he could go back and show it to the person who
wanted the mobile home that way and he would have something
to stand up if they should wantto take it to court .
R . Gleason : Does this ordinance follow the State ordinance ?
G . Totman ; The Town hired Tom Niederkorn and he did it pretty much around
the State standards .
You ' re going to New York next week , right ? They usually have
those pamphlets out relating to mobile homes and maybe there
will be somebody there we can ask and they can send us a memo
on it .
L . Raymond ; Now this other wording " . . .. . . . . . . capable of supporting a mobile
home " - - that could be modified too as to how many pounds or
tons you mean . I think this should be expected of any ordinance
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L . Raymond : you have that you take from the State - - have to change it to adjust
to local uses - - to what people in the Town want and the conditions
that are here .
G . Totman : They talked a lot about parked cars along the highway . It ' s strictly
the Sheriff ' s job - - I know of no towns that get involved in that .
It ' s strictly up to the police department because the law says cars
have to be parked three feet off the highway . It ' s a matter of
someone calling up the State Police or Sheriff ' s Department but
when you do , you have to give your name , and people just don ' t like
to do that . Personally I don ' t think you should have to . If what
they are doing is against the law all you should have to do is
to alert the proper agency about -it and they should take care of it .
There were two on the McLean Road for .eges and they just plow around
them . It ' s a pain in the neck trying to get through up there .
L . Raymond : It ' s really chronic violators we ' re after . I would hate to see
someone who normally parks their cars where they should and say
are caught in a storm for a day or two or say someone due to
sickness like old people who can ' t shovel snow very well and
their car gets caught there should be some leeway on that between
chronic violator who does it week after week through the winter , - -
that ' s something else .
G . Totman : The biggest problem we have now is the situation of all these
small businesses popping up over the countryside . They are in
violation of the ordinance . Apparently the Town Board are wait -
ing for us to make suggestions before changing the ordinance .
What I think probably would be a good idea for us to do is - -
and I ' ll call the other members of our Board - -. is to look at
the ordinance and make notes and come back with some definite
ideas on how we can change the ordinance to either make the
ones that are there already legal and not have any more come in
- - just make them non- conforming or throw the whole ordinance
out and make a new one or something - - some way to get around
the problem because the way the situation is at present many of
them that are in were told it was O . K . by a Town official which ,
of course , it wasn ' t and now somebody else comes in and they say
no and they say so and so has one and so on so somewhere have to
put a stop to it or you don ' t need a Planning Board or ordinance
either .
There are always some things we don ' t like but they have to be
enforced or changed or the whole thing is meaningless .
R . Gleason : We had a committee , when Harvey Fink was Chairman , with 3 people
on it and they came up in essense with a proposal to allow
about anything .
G . Totman : That was thrown out completely .
R . Gleason : I know it was but I ' m pointing it out to show the kind of problem
it is when you try to rewrite it .
G . Totman : We would have been alright if the whole thing had been enforced
in the first place .
R . Gleason : I don ' t quite agree with that . The problem , as I see it , is in the
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R . Gleason : way perhaps it was written . I have to go on this principle , - -
there ' s a need for small automotive repair businesses and where
are they going to be ?
Go Totman : Right , but instead of letting them go in all over the Town they
should have taken the requests that were made and let them come
in as legal instead of trying to do so after they got in . That
would have made it much simpler .
L . Raymond : I would agree with that . What would be wrong with using the same
thing we were talking about for the mobile home ordinance , - - that
type of thing - - like performance standards . I guess you
wouldn ' t tell anyone they couldn ' t have - - say an auto repair
shop anywhere in the Town but if you are going to say locate in a
residential area you would be expected to meet performance
standards like say fencing and what not - - much stricter than say
when locating in an agricultural area . There was the problem Mr .
Pierson was talking about , - -O . K . just take that as a thing , - - as I
recall some of the fragments of the conversation he was talking
about building a place to have saws etc . 0 . K . they are in a
residential area , you would expect that the noise would be greatly
reduced over what is allowed in an agricultural area . The same
thing in an auto repair shop , - - they would have to meet local
standards in that area so it wouldn ' t offend anyone greatly . I
wonder if something like that would work out ?
R . Gleason : I would buy that but I ' m not sure can do it according to what Ben
Bucko said .
G . Totman : I would say if we plan to have that at our next meeting we ' ll have
Ben come to the meeting and he could agree or disagree as to what
is legal or not .
Some discussion was held on this by all .
. Go Totman : I don ' t think there ' s that much more we can discuss tonight , - - if
you ' ll just take that and read it and I ' ll ask Ben to come to the
next meeting and will call our other board members and tell them
what we plan to do and see if we can ' t devote that meeting to
this - - we have to get something done before summer comes and
everybody has a repair shop in his backyard ! I ' m sorry I don ' t
have a - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - for Mr . Pierson . He is in a residential
area . You can ' t make an ordinance for one person .
L . Raymond ; I agree .
. G . Totman : And many people buy homes to go to the area the way it is and I
don ' t think it ' s right to change it to allow noisy repair shops
or gas stations there when they have moved there for peace and
quiet .
R . Gleason : That particular spot in West Groton is zoned residential but it
isn ' t the same as the type up on Clark Street say .
G . Totman : Right .
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L . Raymond : We could take performance standards - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = - - - - - - - - - -
that in certain areas low density and so on , - -maybe not - in
high , - - and forbid it in certain areas outright but in other
areas you might permit it but require certain standards but
in some areas traffic would be involved and might require
regular parking road with fenced- in area - - that would be the
type of difference . I ' m just kind of eyeballing the thing here .
The reason I say that is it bothers me , maybe because I ' m in a
small business myself , to see somebody that owns a piece of
land and sees an opportunity to do this - - I think it ' s a good
old American attribute and to be told you can ' t bothers me .
Some discussion was held on this by all .
The next meeting will be held at 8 PM Tuesday , March 7 , 1978 .
Respectfully submitted ,
Josephine Bell
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