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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1977-07-05 ' I r f GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING Held at the Town Hall Groton , N . Y . ' Tuesday - July 5 , 1977 7 * 30 PM PRESENT : G . Totman* D . Payne C . Twigg* R . Gleason* H . Fink* M . Adams* J . Bell an Recording Clerk* G . Hoy* D . . VanBenSchoten* - Denotes those present . Mr . Totman passed out copies of the minutes of the , June 7 ; 1977 meeting . R . Gleason made a motion that the minutes be approved as written which was seconded by H . Fink and motion carried . G . Totman : I ' m glad Gordon ' s here - - I had a guy come to me the other day — We J . Arthur Williams - an about a piece of land on the Pleasant Valley Road and he wants to sell it - - it only has 175 ft . road frontage and doesn ' t comply with the ordinance . I understand he went to the Board of Appeals for a variance and didn ' t get it , is that correct ? G . Hoy : That ' s right . H . Fink : Can I add something to this , by the way . Mr . Williams came to me approximately 2 years ago in violation of subdivision and the reason he has that frontage is he subdivided wrong - - he owned over 1 , 000 ft . at a guess of road frontage and he divided it wrong . He came to my place and I wentto his place and he came back to mine and he never filed . I went over the map with him and showed him what to do and he completely ignored it . G . Totman : I told him there isn ' t anything the Planning Board can do about it . The Planning Board has sole responsibility for subdivisions but for anything else variances and so on it ' s up to the Town Board , or the Board of Appeals but apparently one of the Town Board members told him to see the Planning Board and he was convinced we could say O . K . - alright to go ahead , but he didn ' t tell me he had been before the Board of Appeals . G . Hoy : Have you studied the lot at all ? G . Totman : No , because when I found out he had been in front of the Board of Appeals - - G . Hoy : It was an unanimous decision . G . Totman : I don ' t know what he ' s looking for . - 1 - Y G . Hoy : He has plenty of land back of the lot but the frontage isn ' t enough and the land all slopes towards the road and if ever any sewage problems would go right out onto the road . I think when he deeded that lot on the other side , he ' s asking us to approve a small lot in the center besides shrinking his own lot smaller than the requirements . H . Fink : I agree with them , - - if he had done it right in the first place he wouldn ' t have had that problem but he would not apply for a subdivision . I did everything to try to explain everything to him . This was 2 years ago . R . Gleason ; Let ' s see - - Pleasant Valley Road - - from Peruville - - then it goes west On - up on the top there - - O . K . H . Fink : He brought it upon himself , I feel . G . Hoy : We went over everything and just decided - - the minutes are in the file if you want to see them . G . Totman : 0 . K . , - - there ' s not much we can do . I ' ll call him back . H . Fink : Ask him why he didn ' t apply for a subdivision . G . Totman : Once he ' s been turned down by the Board of Appeals , his only other route is through the Courts or get some land back from his daughter . Some discussion was held on this by G . Hoy , G . Totman , R . Gleason and others . G . Totman : 0 . K . , - - the only other thing is Dutch called me the othernight . and he has a taailer park on the hill and part of the land in the park is annexed to the Village but he has a garage at the entrance to this lot which is in the Town and he would like to have a display , for the purpose of selling mobile homes . He already has a business on the lot but this would make it a new business . I told Dutch that I have looked it up , and I didn ' t call Ben , but I think you have to go to the Board of Appeals and get a variance even though there is a business there . From what I read , the business there is legal because it was there when you started and is a non- conforming use but according to the ordinance you can ' t add another non- conforming business . H . Fink : That ' s correct . G . Totman : Selling trailers there isn ' t any more offensive than having the garage but I can ' t read the ordinance any other way so I think it would be in order to fill out the paper work requesting a variance . D . VanBenSchoten ; We don ' t anticipate any building . G . Totma.n : I realize that . We don ' t make that decision anyways , Dutch . G . Hoy : The permit though , - - is for a building , - - a building permit . 2 - G . Totman : Yes , - - it ' s too bad Ben didn ' t come tonight . R . Gleason : Isn ' t there a list of allowable businesses ? H . Fink : That ' s an agricultural zone and low intensity . G . Totman : Low intensity don ' t allow it , - - see . R . Gleason : I never liked that low intensity thing . H . Fink : I think you have to have it , Rog , if you ' re going to have a district for homes . G . Totman : I thought Ben would be here tonight so he could clear it up but he hasn ' t showed up yet . R . Gleason : It ' s almost the same position as Lewbro ' s . C . Twigg : No . H . Fink : They went through a variance and became legal . R . Gleason : He asked for a permit . G . Totman : Did you ask for one? D . VanBenSchoten : Yes , but Bob sent me down here because he didn ' t know . Colleen didn ' t know what we wanted and Ben was in Court and then Colleen was taken sick when I came down to check on it so , - - there we are . We feel we ' re missing quite a lot of good advertising by not having units on the road on display as well as what we have in the park itself . We ' d still like to have 4- 5 units on the road . CO Twigg : Where is that park? Is that all up on the hill out of sight ? D . VanBenSchoten : Yes , you can see it from Walpole Road , R . Gleason : I think the best thing to do is get Ben ' s opinion on it and then he has to submit an application and it ' s approved or disapproved by Bob Brown . D . VanBenSchoten : Have you got something more recent than this ? G . Totman : That ' s the old one , I think . I don ' t know if I have the new one here or not . D . VanBenSchoten : The Village reads the same except the Board of Appeals has the final say . on page 22 , George , paragraph 18 - variances . . H . Fink : There ' s Bucko . G . Totman : Ben , do you have a minute before you go in there ? Are you familiar where Dutch ' s garage is . That ' s in low intensity zone and has a non- conforming business there before the ordinance went through which is legal but he would like to have a display of mobile homes . - 3 - B . Bucko : A display , - -when Colleen talked to me she said just a sales office . D . VanBenSchoten : No , - - we want a sales and display area . B . Bucko : You ' re going to have trailers there for sale? D . VanBenSchoten : Right , but no building . G . Totman : The question is , he doesn ' t need a building permit because he ' s not going to put up another building . B . Bucko : If it was a non- concorming use before , - -now it ' s not a non- conforming use because he ' s going to have trailers there for sale . G . . Totman : I thought it best he go before the Board of Appeals but they don ' t know what to do with it . B . Bucko : When Colleen talked to me , she said you were going to build a sales office and not going to have any trailers for sale or anything else , so I said go ahead and issue him a permit for building . D . VanBenSchoten : She didn ' t understand me . B . Bucko : So now you ' re going to have a building that was there , - - the garage ? D . VanBenSchoten : We want a sales and display area period . The office will be in the trailer park or in the trailer we will be selling . B . Bucko : Alright . I want to understand exactly what you ' re going to have . You ' re going to have it in the Town and use the present building you have and have maintenance and so forth . D . VanBenSchoten : Right , B . Bucko : And then you ' re going to have trailers for sale right there ? D . VanBenSchoten : Right . G . Totman : The only difference to the area is he ' s adding trailers that will be visible from the road . B . Bucko : It becomes a matter for the zoning ordinance , whether you comply with it . He would have to get , if mobile home sales is not agricul - tural and in low intensity , - - will have to get a variance but I ' m trying to figure out on what grounds they could give you a variance . It would have to be under the zoning ordinance and my offhand opinion is you have not grounds for a variance by the Board of Appeals . There are only 3 reasons , - - topography , - - - - - and hardship . R . Gleason : But in low intensity , - - no new businesses , - - just what previously existed . B . Bucko : Right , - - the only other way to go is for a zone change . R . Gleason : Anything in residential - - there ' s something in our zoning - 4 - R . Gleason : ordinance about special unit development or something - - - B . Bucko ; That ' s planned unit development . Some discussion was held on why Mr . VanBenSchoten wants this by M . Adams , G . Totman and others . B . Bucko : I don ' t find anything that you can fit your situation in without a zone change . G . Totman : Now Dutch asked about this paragraph I showed you on page 22 . B . Bucko : That ' s for where unusual circumstances come up on a mobile home or mobile home park . R . Gleason : That ' s almost the same as the special permit deal , - - covers the same contingencies . B . Bucko : It says strict compliance with - - he ' s creating the situation - - that isn ' t compliance . G . Totman : Where is the Village line in your area there ? D . VanBenSchoten : That end of the road is not in the Village . Doug didn ' t have his land in the Village . His house and lot there and some of my land were annexed . B . Bucko : I don ' t see anything under here that would help . If you go for a variance they have to deny it because they don ' t have the authority under the law to grant it because you are creating the situation . It ' s not something that existed . This doesn ' t help you , I know , but - - - C . Twigg : What ' s the zone change ? B . Bucko : That ' s spot zoning . If he just takes that parcel - - that means he would have to have the whole neighborhood join him and then it ' s got to come back to the Planning Board and the Town Board and I ' m sure the Town Board would turn It right back to the Planning Board for recommendations and that means the Stevens property - - - G . Hoy : Does the Zoning Board discuss other areas , besides 222 , for commercial areas ? When Lewbro ' s went in out there , we granted them a variance and then they rezoned it , - - why wasn ' t there more concern in rezoning the whole thing out that road like on 2229 All you have for com- mercial is up 222 and none of that land is available so what have you got ? B . Bucko : The area on 38 where Jennings lives and everything else that ' s all residential right now . They had so many people that lived by Lewbro ' s that complained but it was the northwest corner east of 38 that went right up to Chipman ' s Corners Road that they zoned as industrial but you know you get - - - - - - - - and Brown ' s and C . B . Jennings and all those people around there , - - that ' s all residential and that ' s why they 2Dned it medium intensity . They 5 - B . Bucko : wanted to keep it that way and at the time I think the Groton Development Corporation were thinking of developing a residential thing out there . G . Totman : The Town Board and the Planning Board over the past few years have recognized that problem and that land up there is not for sale but when they looked at Route 38 those people want theirs kept residential too , - - they didn ' t want a zoning ordinance in the first place but now that it ' s there they don ' t want it changed so you have a problem both ways . Something has to be done but can ' t look for a change every time a good business comes in . B . Bucko : When you take past the church , the only thing that is business is the Roman Village . That ' s the reason they kept it residential but I don ' t see any- thing here Dutch that can help you unless you rezone it agricultural and then you will have to have a public hearing . D . Gleason : It would be possible to do that including Stevens tract on Old Stage Road . H . Fink : Agricultural would be alright . B . Bucko : Stay east of Chipman ' s Corners , R . Gleason : You could get a big enough tract , - -you could make it legal . That would be the only way you can do it and get away with it . D . VanBenSchoten : Yours is low intensity , too . R . Gleason : Yes , on both sides up to Clark Street . Some discussion was held on agricultural zoning by R . Gleason , B . Bucko and others . C . Twigg : It seems as though there should be a provision somewheres where if you had the consent of the people in the neighborhood - - if the people in the neighborhood said alright you could do it . Why wouldn ' t that be - - this is what zoning is for . In other words the Planning Board sees no problem in his setting trailers up there and there is no sewage involved - - it ' s not a permanent deal and I can ' t see why you can ' t get a variance to put them there but when and if you changed hands or sold the property the deal would be off and it would be back just the way it is now . G . Totman : What Dutch is trying to do would make the area look better than it is right now . I would think that the Town Board - - C . Twigg : Seems as though there would be a provision somewheres that would make it simpler . R . Gleason : You could change the definitions in the medium intensity zone - there are 2 things you can do - - change to agricultural or change definitions . 6 - G . Totman0 What he ' s saying is the Town Board would have to call a public hearing if they agree . R . Gleason ; And then you have to talk to all the people . H . Fink ; You have to have the people approve it . R . Gleason ; They don ' t have to agree but they have a right to input . D . VanBenSchoten ; On the original proposal , does that have to be unanimous ? I understand it would only have to be my property , R- - - - -but about 6 or 7 . G . Totman ; That ' s for a variance . R . Gleason ; Legally they can ' t allow the variance . There are no legal grounds they can allow it on . More discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , H . Fink , D . VanBenSchoten and others . B . Bucko ; It ' s actually planning it and showing it on paper - - what you plan to do . It ' s got to be changed to agricultural -only place where you can have office for trailers . R . Gleason ; Up on 222 you can ' t . H . Fink ; You can ' t . R . Gleason ; What about Dave ' s ? B . Bucko ; They are legal , - - it ' s a repair shop . C . Twiggs ; What about Adams? B . Bucko ; Read the ordinance on mobile home parks and - - - - - - - - - - - only in agricultural with a special permit - - no other place . D . VanBenSchoten ; Define this 500 ft . set back you just went through Roger . R . Gleason ; Here ' s the low intensity and here you are right down here and there ' s a spot here in the Village where the park is . You could take - - have it changed to agricultural - - all of the area or could come up here to Stevens ' and then up past these houses . Now on Stage Road here you have 4 houses . So you can leave 500 feet on Clark Street and in that way wouldn ' t have to worry about those people having theirs changed and then you could cut it off further down there and it doesn ' t matter . D . VanBenSchoten ; But I feel they definitely should be approached and made aware of the situation . R . Gleason ; Right , but they could be left in low intensity . D . VanBenSchoten ; In reality then Neville ' s house and Lewbro Corporation would be the only ones . 7 - R . Gleason : Yes , they would be directly involved . G . Totman : Sorry , Dutch . D . VanBenSchoten : I think I almost know where to start now , - -what ' s with the Town Board - - what can I do tonight ? G . Totman : They are supposed to have it on their agenda before they start . My best advice to you is - - C . Twigg : Wait til Ben leaves ! G . Totman : Would be to approach Verl tomorrow or whenever and go over the whole thing with him and I think if he under- stands what you are doing he can talk to the Town Board members - - if it was me I would talk to all of them and explain it and I think they would be sympathetic . They have to do what they can do legally but there are a lot of things , if they are in favor of it , they can do . The purpose of having an ordinance is for good reasons but when something would better enhance an area - - M . Adams : Does he need a petition to take to the people? G . Totman ; Normally , if the Town Board agrees the need is there and something should be done they notify all the people in the area when they call a public hearing but , by the same token , once he has his plans on paper or can explain what he plans to do , I would go around to people with a petition asking for their approval . Then the Town Board holds a public hearing . D . VanBenSchoten : Would they sign a petition even if - - we ' re talking about 500 ft . setback - - 5 property owners - - would they be required to sign a petition in favor even though they don ' t want their land annexed ? G . Totman : They would sign the petition approving what you are doing . I ' ll talk to Verle before he goes home tonight , or first thing tomorrow . I ' ll call him so he will know what the Planning Board ' s feelings are . G . Totman : At our last meeting , for those of you who were not here , we set the first Tuesday of every month to hold Planning Board meetings at 8 PM . The Town Board did ask us to start looking at the land and what we can recommend to change in the zoning to make it possible for more businesses to come in - - they did ask us to study it and come back to them and dis - cuss it with them . R . Gleasont I move that the Planning Board is in favor of establishing an agricultural zone in that area we were talking about . G . Totman : What you are saying is we go on record in favor of what - 8 - G . Totman : Dutch is proposing if it could be made legal ? R . Gleason : Yes , G . Totman : That ' s perfectly alright in asking for something that is not illegal , saying what it looks to us if it is possible to do it , we are in favor of it . C . Twigga I second the motion . Motion carried unanimously . R . Gleason : It ' s possible we should look into the possibility of making that whole area on both sides of route 38 in that vicinity open to some types of businesses . G . Totman : I think you would run into a little problem . 0 . K . Now what we have to do is elect a permanent chairman . I have been conducting the meetings in the capacity of vice- chairman . We were supposed to have had our election in April . We never could all get together to do it . So I guess we ' re all here except Don and he told me on the telephone if we elected him chairman he ' d quit ! C . Twigg0 That job takes someone with time and experience and Fink is the only one that fits both categories . H . Fink : No , - - I nominate George Totman . M . Adams ; If Fink don ' t want it , - -I second the nomination for George Totman . G . Totman : Before we go on , - -do you work full time , Mary? M . Adams : No , - - part time - 4 hours a day . G . Totman : Here ' s what I ' m saying . It requires sometimes people from the Planning Board to come in here through the day and get information and see people and have Colleen do something and it also involves someone that can write a letter and do that sort of thing . M . Adams : That I could do but I don ' t want to be chairman . G . Totman : That ' s the only way that I could possibly do it . I don ' t have the time to call people and I forget to sometimes . I have a few things I ' m doing that take quite a bit of time . Being chairman is not an easy thing to do and if anyone wants it I would be glad to give it to them . I don ' t say that I want it . Are there any other nominations ? R . Gleason : I move that the polls be closed and the secretary cast one ballot . H . Fink ; I secnnd the motion . Co Twigg : What you want now is for Mary to be vice - chairman . G . Totman : Wait a minute - on the only thing is if you ' re going to be vice - chairman and the chairman is out of town or sick you would begin charge . M . Adams ; I don ' t want that ! R . Gleason : She could be the secretary . - 9 - G . Totman : That ' s what I think . She could get the minutes and sort them out and things like that . I ' m all in favor of Mary being vice - chairman but want her to understand the position . M . Adams : No , I don ' t want to run for vice- chairman . G . Totman : Is there anybody that wants to be vice- chairman ? R . Gleason : I would be willing to serve as vice- chairman if you people want me to . I don ' t have time to be chairman but could conduct a meeting once in awhile . Co Twigg : That sounds reasonable . I ' ll nominate Roger Gleason for vice - chairman . H . Fink : I second the nomination . G . Totman : Any other nominations ? H . Fink : I move the polls be closed and the secretary cast one ballot . M . Adams : I second the motion . G . Totman : Mary is going to be what we call a corresponding secretary . R . Gleason : I move that Mary Adams be our corresponding secretary . H . Fink : I second the motion . C . Twigg : I move the polls be closed . G . Totman : I second the motion . Motion carried . G . Totman : Incidentally this was never brought up much , - - I represent the Town of Groton on the Tompkins County Planning Board and if I don ' t bring it up remind me of it because recently there was a real explosive issue - - there was this County Youth Bureau deal - - The Tompkins County Planning Board gets involved with everything . They plan and make recommendations for what goes on in the whole county . The guys that run the Planning Department are paid professionals .y A This County F �atN Board was sort of mandated by the State , only 2 counties in the State so far that have gone along with it . Supposedly if you didn ' t go along with it your funds would be cut off but what it does instead of Groton having own Youth Bureau the County puts it up and they tax it out to the towns but B . LWf4y on County Board of Representatives has been pushing this thing like crazy for about 2 years . They had a vote in May but didn ' t tell anybody ahead of time that they were going to vote on it and there weren ' t that many there and the majority abstained but they voted anyways and it passed 6 - 4 but Al Stevens from Dryden and myself and a guy from Caroline got up a petition to have a special meeting and have a new vote and when we had the meeting two weeks ago , it was quite a meeting , but we voted it down but then the County Board of Representatives turned around and voted for it . 10 - G . Totman : If nothing else to be brought up tonight , I don ' t have anything except for the fact that - - we ' re all here tonight but Don and our next meeting date is the first week of the Smith- Corona vacation . M . Adams : I won ' t be here . G . Totman : I don ' t know about Don Payne , he works for Smith- Corona and I ' m going to be away the first 4 days . R . Gleason ; Do we have to have a meeting in August ? G . Totman : The only thing is we have a problem , - -I don ' t think we have one but Colleen Pierson thinks we have one . She gets bombarded with questions because she gets people in asking about changes in zoning ordinance to put in small businesses and there ' s a fellow wants to put one in on the D ='- -- - Road . C . Twigg : That ' s why Hicks wanted to change the ordinance to allow- - - G . Totman : As I explained to Colleen , we can plan things and make suggestions but just because he wants to put one in now we can ' t change the ordinance - - the Town Board has to do it . If we go into it , it will be an eight - year study . R . Gleason ; That ' s spot zoning again . C . Twigg : Not if they change the ordinance . Some discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , C . Twigg , G . Totman and others . G . Totma.n : 0 . K . , - - let ' s scrap the August meeting unless something comes up . H . Fink ; Then we could call a special meeting . G . Totman : We have changed town supervisors and a lot of stuff we were doing was because Hicks talked to us . He ' s not town supervisor any more and anything he asked us they don ' t know about so probably the best thing forme to do is get together with the Town Board members and see what they want us to do . R . Gleason : There ' s a proposal that Hicks made and he gave it to the Town Board , G . Totman : And he told them it was our proposal . R . Gleason : You ' re going to talk to Verl ? G . Totman : Yes , R . Gleason : He may say we got this proposal from you and we kind of think we ' ll implement it or we don ' t like it , - -whatever he says . G . Totman : The Planning Board is the original planner of the zoning ordinance and if you read all your books it says prepared by the Planning Board which means right or wrong we get leaned on . It ' s very frustrating if you have spent lots of time on it . Roger has been on it a long time and may not agree with everything but if you go year after year and have .things put in and then sit back and watch - 11 - G . Totman : things go up all over town that shouldn ' t be allowed to - - it does get very frustrating because there are many , many times I have called the Enforcement Officer and pointed out things to him and I know Harvey has and nothing has been done . Every time you talk to Ben or Hicks about it they say we ' re going to start taking care of it . They have said that 3 - 4 years . I ' IP going to go back to them some day and say if nothing is going to be done there ' s no need for a Planning Board . Some discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , C . Twigg , G . Totman and others . G . Totman : What I ' m building up to is this , we now have a new zoning enforce - ment officer . What I think we should do , either individually or all of us , is call him if we see something that doesn ' t comply with the ordinance , call him and let him know or write it down and bring It to a meeting here and I ' ll take it to him . Also I ' ll try to remember to have Bob Brown come down and sit in on a few of these things . H . Fink : In reality , our main job , technically , is subdivision and we have everybody selling everybody everything and they don ' t even apply for a subdivision . H . Fink moved that the meeting be adjourned , R . Gleason seconded the motion - - motion carried . The meeting adjourned at 20 to 10 PM . Respectfully submitted , Jo ephine Bell 12 -