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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1976-07-01 t GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD PUBLIC HEARING Held at the Town Hall Groton , New York Thursday - July 1 , 1976 - 8 : 00 P . M . PRESENT : H . Fink - Chairman* D . Snell - Zoning Enforcement G . Totman - Vice Chairman* Officer* D . Payne* M . Walker* C . Twigg* P . Dorsey* Attorney for Mr . Camp* r.,& . Gleason* D . Camp* F . Wilson* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* Approximately 10 members of the general public also attended this hearing . * - Denotes those present . H . Fink : It ' s 3 minutes past 8 and I will now read the notice of this public hearing aloud which was published in the Journal and Courier on June 23 , 1976 . (Mr . Fink read the notice aloud a copy of which is on file in the Town Clerk ' s Office . ) H . Fink : I ' ll pass around a pad and pen and if you would please sign your names . I ' ve had some phone calls today on what was going on there and will give you a brief rundown and if you have any questions will go into that . Mr . Camp owns this tract here and what he has done'. is - - when you sell 2 or more parcels off tax map it becomes a minor subdivision up to 4 parcels . He has sold 4 parcels and is now here for a minor subdivision . (Mr . Fink pointed out on the map where the pieces were sold . Myron Walkers , the piece Mr . Camp reserved for himself , Mr . Marcello ' s and Mr . Ryan ' s . ) H . Fink : Are there any particular questions in anybody ' s mind you would care to have us answer ? One thing - - water rights , - - would you explain that on the map Mr . Camp ? D . Camp : You mean show where they are ? H . Fink : Yes , please . D . Camp : The water rights are right here and go down to Mrs . Adams ' , which is across the road and goes down somewheres across the road . I ' m not acquainted with where it goes down across the road . It ' s marked in the corner there where the spring is . H . Fink : It runs into your property about 100 ft . ? - 1 - D . Camp : No , into Marcello ' s . Be Lucey : Into Marcello ' s property . H . Fink : There ' s no other structure besides the spring house on that land ? Be Lucey : No , not now . (Mr . Lucey read aloud a description of where the spring is located . ) Be Lucey : This was dated and is recorded in Ithaca on the loth day of August , 1944 at 2 * 40 PM Book 271 of Deeds , page 483 . This was a deed Mary Adams conveyed to me for easement to go across my property to take water out of that which is jointly owned . H . Fink : If Mr . Marcello is the owner , - - Be Lucey : Is he here ? H . Fink : I don ' t believe so . Be Lucey : Unless Mr . Camp notified him of it then he ' s in a legal hazzle . I can show you . From this corner here it comes back to about the edge of this meadow or hay field , - - there was a fence line there and it curves out to here and all the way down to the road . There ' s approximately 5 acres up in here but I don ' t believe there ' s more than 3 really so that constitutes the wetland and since it con- stitutes more than 2 acres of land it comes under the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation as permanent wetlands . H . Fink : That will be a legal problem between Mr . Camp , Mr . Marcello and possibly yourself . We are supposed to know about any right of ways or easements in there which we did not have any prior knowledge of except we knew there was a spring which gave water rights to Mrs . Adams . P . Dorset : I ' d like to know how he thinks it ' s 2 - 1 /2 acres . Be Lucey : 2 = 1 / 2 acres constitutes that knob of scrub brush . P . Dorset : She doesn ' t have 2 - 1 / 2 acres . Be Lucey : I have the deed . She bought it from John and May Green and conveyed it to me , - -all she has is an easement across my property . P . Dorset : Can I ask you when she conveyed it to you . Be Lucey : Yes , it ' s dated in the deed . H . Fink : It has no bearing on this hearing and since there are other people here would rather not make this a legal problem at this hearing . If you would get together with Mr . Lucey and resolve these problems and let us know . I don ' t think this is the place for it . We ' re here , - - in that case that land is already sold . Be Lucey : Did the seller Mr . Camp tell the buyer about the water rights ? H . Fink : Again , that is not our business . - 2 - D . Camp : It has nothing to do with tonight . B . Lucey : It hays a lot to do with it concerning sewer towards the watershed . P . Dorset : You would reach that problem when they applied for a building permit , right ? That has nothing to do with - this particular thing tonight . H . Fink : That ' s a good question , - - that ' s a legal question . G . Totman : It ' s part of the Planning Board ' s concern , - in the subdivisi- on regulations to look at water drainage and run off and what it would do to the land surrounding it . This is something new that the Planning Board hasn ' t looked at yet . The application is for a subdivision so we have to assume there is going to be building on that land that is being subdivided . P . Dorset : Anybody that builds on these acreages has got to come before you anyways and at that time would take the problem up as to where they are going to put their house . B . Lucey : That ' s not necessarily so , - -on my property I have a flowing spring on it which is almost on the top of the ground and it supplies 3 dwellings besidex my own . Now this sewage problem would be a major problem in this subdivision and I believe it also concerns Mr . - - - - - - - - - - - - p- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - his drainage towards the Fouts farm and also takes water out of a corner of that top chunk of land . H . Fink : Is Mr . Marcello aware of the water rights on that land ? P . Dorset : Yes . B . Lucey : Is he aware of the scope of it? H . Fink : At this time we will take into consideration the water rights . Not having enough information from both parties , we will go on as a normal subdivision without this problem but before we make any decision will have to consider these rights and also the points Mr . Lucey read from his deed there . Are there any other questions ? P . Dorset : When was this deed recorded ? B . Lucey : The deed was given to me on September 14 , 1943 and recorded on August loth 1944 at 2 * 40 PM . B . F . Tobey , deputy clerk and the party that drew up the deed was Robert Sloan . P . Dorset : We have been talking with Mrs . Adams and as far as she is concerned she still owns the water rights . B . Lucey : She owns a part of them and so do I . P . Dorset : I can show you an abstract of title . B . Lucey : I have one too that goes back to 1833 . D . Camp : I would like to have Mrs . Adams come down . 3 - B . Lucey : She asked me to come down . She can ' t see too well or hear too well . Actually , gentlemen , on this property - - it concerns this property that you have conveyed to somebody from New York City that takes in the spring lines . H . Fink : We ' ll take that into consideration , - -but at this time , - - B . Lucey : And part of the lands he is holding in reserve . P . Dorset : Of course you know he reserves rights in the spring himself ? B . Lucey : Oh , yes . The owners of the property have rights to it . You can sell the land , nobody - - - - - : - - - - that , - - it ' s just simply that they should understand what is entailed concerning this watershed . H . Fink : Right , - -we ' ll see that that is taken care of . Are there any other questions ? A . Mulvihill : Do they have intentions of building any homes along Elm Street extension ? H . Fink : There will be one that I know of . A . Mulvihill : The one up near the corner . They have already dug in there - - - - - - off Wood Road . Any more intention of putting - - - - - - down here ? M . Walker : I only own the wood frontage . A . Mulvihill : Is someone else going to build there . M . Walker : Not that I know of . H . Fink : I had a phone call from Mr . Jackson and he said through local gossip he heard there was something about a trailer park too , - -he couldn ' t imagine what was going on , - - to clear his mind , as far as the Town is concerned , no one has asked for one and we wHl not give approval for mobile home park . Mr . Walters , this young fellow here , wants to build a home and he bought that tract of land from Mr . Camp and went to get a building permit and Mr . Camp did not have his subdivision at that time which prevented Mr . Walters from building his home and he can ' t get a permit til this is passed . A . Mulvihill : Why weren ' t people notified before it was sold to him . H . Fink : There ' s no law that says he can ' t sell his property to anyone and no law that says who you have to sell it to . A . Mulvihill : But you do have regulations that a person can ' t do this or that without permission . ;.t', fput a trailer on my property - - had one there and then I bought another one and I had to get a permit to put it there because I had one there before . That ain ' t right . I put a bigger trailer there and yet I had to get a permit . H . Fink : It was the same way with you , - -your neighbors weren ' t notified that you were going to put a dwelling there . - 4 - A . Mulvihill : They knew . B . Lucey : Mr . Camp , - - on that corner lot , - - did you restructure that , - - didn ' t you sell it to a policeman from New York originally , - - the house and barn ? D . Camp : Yes . It ' s the way it is on the map right there . B . Lucey : He still has the property ? D . Camp : He didn ' t sell it , - -his kids moved over there . H . Fink : Any other questions ? ? ? ? : What this involves is he wants to get permission to build a house ? Does it have anything to do with the rest of the land? H .:Fink- It does because you have to apply for a subdivision if you sell more than - - - - tracts of land . I believe there ' s around 30 acres that he bought . A . Mulvihill : What ' s going on the other three parcels . H . Fink : One he ' s retained for himself , - - one is - s a present dwelling , and the other - - - B . Lucey : He bought the farm house . The only lot that is of any question is that irregular - - - - - - - - - - - piece of land in which the water rights are . As far as the subdivision is concerned he can go right ahead with it as far as I ' m concerned . H . Fink : Any further questions ? Lorne Akins : I ' m one of the interested persons in that water , - - I do draw water out of that same spring and it will affect me if anything is done anywheres near that water , as well as 3 other families or dwellings . Will there be any more information given to us . H . Fink : Well , - -our Town Attorney will look into it with Mr . Camp ' s attorney with respect to what Mr . Lucey has said . Do you have water rights to that spring ? L . Akins : I have rights to the spring , - -I bought the land from Mr . Lucey . P . Dorset : There ' s nothing on record except for Mrs . Adams having a right to that spring . B . Lucey : You ' d better go back to Watkins , - - they must have overlooked one very important piece of your title abstract . P . Dorset : You had better go back to Mrs . Adams , - - it was made to Mrs . Adams and her alone . H . Fink : Another thing , - -we will look into this with our attorney and also Mr . Camp ' s attorney . We have no way to feed back to you what we find out . This will be your individual responsibility , - - not through us but through your own attorneys , - - I would look into it if I was a land owner . on 5 - L .: Akins : I don ' t want to get up some morning and turn the spigot on and get a cloud of dust ! H .' Fink : I sympathize with you but this is a problem you have to resolve yourselves . B . Lucey : All I know is if they start building in that water area I ' ll get an injunction and stop it . G . Totman : If you have some connection with that piece of land it ' s high time you look into it . If we didn ' t hold public hearings nobody would know what is happening . H .' Fink : All we ' re aware of is the water rights to Mrs . Adams . Are there any other questions ? If not I ' ll close this public hearing at 8 * 30 PM . If you have any connections with these water rights , look into them and I ' ll see that our Town Attorney looks into it . The hearing adjourned at 8 * 30 PM and the Town Planning Board held a meeting with all members present which started at 8 * 45 P .M . H . Fink : I ' ll turn the meeting over to you , Roger . R . Gleason : I would like to introduce Glenn Klines , County Extension Agent and Ken Cobb who are going to explain to us about a possible housing survey they have worked up . I guess that ' s it . K . Cobb : Glenn and I met earlier before we came over here and almost missed the fireworks you had here tonight . So we kind of divided this up , - - what I would like to cover is the current status of the survey , - - how to implement it , what we are going to do with the results and then Glenn will pretest it on your members who are here tonight . I guess everybody is aware that we met with Roger and some faculty at Cornell University and this came out of that meeting . In fact this is the second one we developed , - - the first one wasn ' t very compatible for computer so we went back to Bill Reader and he helped develop this survey which is changed quite considerably from the one we originally thought of and that I worked on and this sur - vey is in the shape it is in because we can computerize it and the results from it can be compared to the 1970 census . I would like to emphasize too , and I think we need to , that there is nothing sacred about this , - - can tear it apart and take parts out , - - it won ' t hurt it that much . That is something you all have to decide . It originally started out to be a mobile home survey but we thought it ought to be a housing survey since you are going to ask people in the community what they felt about the housing situation so that ' s why it ' s kind of in 3 sections , - - one section strictly on housing and questions dealing with residences and a section on information about yourself , your age , your sex , your martial status and things like that and then the last section of the survey deals with mobile homes and what people feel about mobile homes . It , was developed so that everyone can take it and be part of the 6 - K . Cobb ; community and will give you a pretty good idea about what people feel about it . I felt in the implementation there are 2 good ways , - - one is a ' hand - out , pick up type of implementation where either you , as members of the Board , or we have involved in the past: youth $•,such as 4-H , girl scouts , boy scouts,, taking a map and assigning different sections of the town and going out and actually handing the survey to a person and telling them who is sponsoring the survey , what you would like them to do and when you will be back to pick it up . You get a much higher return doing it that way . Another way is a mail- out with a return envelope and if this does not have a cover letter with it telling what you are going to do with the information we have set up here and I don ' t know if this was ever decided upon but I took the liberty to say it is being sponsored by the Cooperative Extension and the Groton Town Planning Board . Number two , you an use their francing and it won ' t cost you an arm and a leg . On a mailing survey you can use a telephone directory , - - say pick out every tenth person in it . K . Cobb ; To go over to the results , - - as I said it ' s set up now so that the information can be taken directly from this and put on a computer card and put into the computer and we can get back some information but that won ' t be any good unless we can get someone to interpret the results so I have a promise from Bruce Brown in Rural Sociology and he said he would be glad to help us interpret the results and that would provide you with one copy of the results and it would be your responsibility then to do whatever you wanted to do with it . Say do news items or pass it out . Those are other things we can talk about when we get the results back and I think Glenn and I can help you with that . We would be glad to help in every step of the way . That leads to your part of the survey Glenn if there are no questions . G . Klines : One of our interests is the fact that this just isn ' t a Groton problem , - -other towns are facing similar problems and the informa- tion we would get out of it would be helpful for our work with other boards , too . As Ken said , this isn ' t finished project , - - there isn ' t anything sacred about it . If you don ' t mind I think the best way is to go down through and fill it out yourselves . Take a few minutes to do that and then I think after you have had a chance , - - this may raise some questions - - the way it is worded - - you may want to change some after you go through what is in here . Mr . Klines passed out the survey questionnairs to everyone and they filled them out . F . Wilson : I think 15a should be moved back up there with number 9 and question 21 could be very aunfusing . K . Cobb : Do you feel it would be easier if you answered question 22 first ? F . Wilson : I don ' t mean the question , - - I mean the way it is structured there . K . Cobb : 0 . K . we need directions on that , - - say write or circle one that is appropriate , - -O . K . F . Wilson : Glenn , I think you had a point that these ought to have line drawn across the center . - 7 - K . Cobb : Either double space or draw a line . A line would probably be easier . F . Wilson : What would be your reaction in mailing it out and notifying people that someone would be there to pick them up ? K . Cobb : Or you could do it vice versa . G . Totman : That would be better . I ' d rather ask them to mail it back . K . Cobb : We never had any problems with it really . We have done it with students and others going out and handing it out and picking it back up . R . Gleason : Maybe you could say you were handling it and all we would get would be the results . Some discussion was held on this by H . Fink , K . Cobb and others . H . Fink : Maybe we should ask about whether or not they would like to keep the town rural . Maybe that should be a question , - - some- thing on the rural characteristics of the Town . G . KIi_nes : Wasn ' t there something on that F- - - - - - - - - town about that ? K . Cobb : It was all about that . Most of them came back we like the fresh air , open spaces , closeness to work and so on . F . Wilson : Could you relate that question to question 7 ? Are you satisfied with the size of the lot ? K . Cobb : We could . Co Twigg0 These people if they want a rural community , - - someone has got to pay the taxes to maintain it otherwise more welfare , schools , and so on . To have this privilege you have to pay taxes for living in that type of community but then did the same thing here , - -we said alright put trailers in a section of the Town of Groton but the Town Board said you can ' t do that we ' ll have one trailer section and a large section and that really isn ' t too good either because you get , - - I don ' t know , --you get about so many in one section and nobody likes it , - - they don ' t like it themselves . Nobody can stand it . But if they get mixed up around the whole town then everyone has to - - there ' s a question in there as to where we would like trailers - an all in large parks , small parks or in sections of the Town which is kind of - - K . Cobb : Maybe we ought to leave it open , - - say add Other - if they have some other preference . F . Wilson : Can I ask you the reason for large or small ? K . Cobb : Well small parks are more palatable than the large ones . Maybe it ought to be defined say 6 or 127 G . Klines : Yes , it ought to be defined . - 8 - G . Totman : A small park can be , by law , anywheres in the Town but if you hold it to large parks they have to be near sewage and water . F . Wilson : I was thinking about as to whether or not would like to have some parks regardless of size . I ' d rather have them in parks than scattered around the town . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , G . Klines , K . Cobb , R . Gleason , C . Twigg and others . F . Wilson : How much time would it take to implement the survey and get the data? G . Klines : You mean summarized ? F . Wilson : To complete the survey . K . Cobb : If you want to pass :. it out would take about a week and then another week to collect them and then we take it to Cornell and if they are backed up will take it to BOES but say it would take another week to get it put on the cards and then the analysis of it , - -we could sit down here and you could analyse it with Bruce Brown , - -maybe a month . F . Wilson : I was wondering if we could get some feedback before our deadline . K . Cobb : When is it ? G . Totman : September 21st , - - the Town Board have to make their decision before that . F . Wilson : In order for this information to be useful to us we would have to have it by the 1st of August . C . Twigg : It ' s not going to be useful to us for that , - -we could still - - - - - - - - - - it to the Town Board , R . Gleason : Yes , even if they make their decision , it would be useful to them to defend their decision with . Of course , if they make the wrong one hide it under the rug ! C . Twigg : It might be useful to the Town Board at the hearing . Like when we had meetings all we had come were trailer people . If the Town Board had a summary of this they could say this is what the people of the Town who answered the survey felt . K . Cobb : Depending on how elaborate you want the information , I would say we could hand these out and get them back and then you could sit around this table and figure out the percentage . I would say this questionnaire does not have to be computerized to get the information out of it . But you could plug this in and get information back , say within 15 minutes . It ' s getting it put on the cards and getting them into the computer . F . Wilson : How do you figure out - - the problem percentage - - say of mobile homes and so on - - - - - 9 - K . Cobb : You hear a lot of fuss when a mobile home moves next door . F . Wilson : It seems to me we have to have some kind of a safeguard for mobile home owners when we get up to present the findings , we might find that only say 2% that answered were in mobile homes . Some discussion was held on this by Glenn Klines , K . Cobb , F . Wilson and others . H . Fink : You could take a R . D . 2 and R . D . 1 - - R . Gleason : R . D . 1 and R . D . 2 would get a large percentage of the town . The McLean Post Office is all boxes . G . Totman : In McLean you have Groton , Dryden , Freeville and - - - - - - - - - - K . Cobb : If you do random sample they can ' t hit you with that question . R . Gleason : With that directory if we went up and down it wouldn ' t you get random sample ? If you took every fifth one or whatever ? K . Cobb : Another thing , you have to be careful of - - to know what people live in or near the village . G . Klines : Are you concerned with inside the village ? G . Totman : No . R . Gleason : They have their own laws . C . Twigg : It would be just outside the village . G . Totman : What does the Extension :Rervice do with this type of information ? I guess I don ' t understand total involvement of what the Extension Service is . G . Klines : As I said it isn ' t just a problem for Groton . I think information like this - - if we had information on a town another town might take a look at it and see how people look at it differently but at least they have something to see what turns out of a survey . G . Totman : You were saying you can use this information ? What do you use it for? G . Klines : It would be with Planning Boards , - -people who are interested in housing . H . Fink : I think he ' s saying the scope of the Extension Service , G . Totman : Here ' s why I ' m asking . This same type of thing is being done by the County Planning Board and now I ' m hearing the Extension Service is doing the same thing , where do you two come together ? K . Cobb : It ' s not the same thing . G . Kline : For one thing they are taking a look at the whole county rather than individual towns but you have seen what they have come out with in draft form . 10 - K . Cobb : It ' s still in draft form . They don ' t ask most of the questions that we are asking here . Like several other Town Planning Boards throughout the State here you have a specific problem . We have already visited with County Planning and they are very happy to have us help out . We try to help develop information where Planning Boards and local elected officials can make better decisions . We make available to them research and other information . This is one way of doing it . G . Totman : What you are saying is you do this to help other towns out . Do you have information on another town that we can see ? K . Cobb : This will be the first one . Maybe it will be a pilot and then some other town will ask us to help them . Some discussion was held on this by K . Cobb , G . Totman and others . R . Gleason : Whatever the County Planning Board comes up with they can make recommendations but the Town Board is the only one that can implement them so they have got to come back to each town . K . Cobb : If you know this has been done - - we don ' t want to go and do a resurvey . G . Totman : I didn ' t say that . G . Klines : Hopefully what we do supplements what the County Planning Board is doing . We certainly don ' t want to get into competition . C . Twigg : This will certainly be made available to the County Planning Board . They will certainly want to see the results of this . G . Klines : Yes , we talked with them and they expressed quite a lot of interest but they aren ' t planning on going out and getting it in this detail . C . Twigg : In other words you have more of a coordinated effort . You have the machinery that you can do it and can coordinate not only the County but other towns . Other towns will also come to you like we did . You are the source . K . Cobb : For some help if it ' s not available somewhere else maybe we can help them and maybe sometimes will join up with other agencies to help the town . We are in more of a neutral position than any other agency . At 10 P .M . Mrs . Bell left and the Planning Board members and Mr . Cobb and Mr . Klines stayed on to discuss the survey in more detail . Respectfully submitted , ( "t"0 �a Q Josephine Bell - 11 -