Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout1976-04-22 GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD AND GROTON TOWN BOARD MEETING Held at the Town Hall , Groton , New York Thursday - April 22 , 1976 - 7 : 40 P . M . PRESENT : H . Fink - Chairman* H . Dow - Town Supervisor* G . Totman - Vice- Chairman* L . Baker - Town Clerk* F . Wilson* Be Bucko - Town Attorney* J . Laiacona* Be Walpole - Town Justice* R . Gleason* A . Heffron - Town Justice* C . Twigg V . Rankin - Town Councilman* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* D . Snell - Zoning Enforcement Officer* * - Denotes those present . H . Dow ; Well , folks , will start our meeting tonight . How do you want to start ? Do you want to give each person a copy of this ? H . Fink : Yes . Mr . Dow passed out copies of the proposed suggestions of the Planning Board re . mobile home placement . H . Dow : Would someone like to read this aloud ? H . Fink : I think we should take a few minutes and let everyone read it . If you have read the proposal , you will notice on the map there is one particular area that is proposed as an alter- native in the event of overcrowding elsewhere . It ' s taken a long time for the Planning Board to come to some kind of an agreement on how we would work this . At the last meeting we finally agreed , - - the majority agreed , - - to present this to the Town Board . To enlighten you a little bit , I set up a committee of 2 to look into a , little bit greater detail and they met with Ex- tension people and professors at Cornell University . Now that group , - -will take us from 3 - 5 years to come up with any solution - - I attended their meeting and while they are unusually smart people they admit there is no one answer and it seems each town , - - the people that live here , - -we have to solve it the way we feel is best . They can give us all kinds of suggestions and ideas but , again , we know essentially how the growth is occurring , - - local problem areas , - - growth conditions , etc . We are presenting this plan to you for your approval . If you have any questions I think that ' s where to start . Do - 1 - H . Fink : any other members of the Planning Board have anything to add to that ? Joe , - -Fred - - F . Wilson : I don ' t know if we indicated in the proposal , - -but we had talked about existing regulations and perhaps even some changes . I don ' t know if that should be something we would talk about right now . We do feel very strontly , as a body , that we need stronger enforcement . B . Walpole : What you are indicating tonight , - - this is your final draft I take it ? I was under the impression when the moratorium went into effect you were going to work with the Town Board . H . Dow : It ' s subject to our study and changes , isn ' t it , Fred ? We ' re here to discuss this and put input into this thing and then if it needs tailoring it can be tailored . F . Wilson : Some of us felt we should meet with the Town Board a number of times before we came up with this , and others thought we should do it this way and recommend it to you and let you do with it whatever you wanted to do . My impression was this is what we are going to propose to you and hope you would accept or modify it , - -however you want to do it . H . Dow : You were talking about stricter enforcement and changes in our ordinance - - that ' s for units outside this area . You are assuming if this is adopted the ordinance would have to be rebuilt . G . Totman : Even with this , there will be rules and regulations as to how they can be placed on these individual lots . H . Dow : There ' s just one thing . As I read it and studied the maps , there ' s one thing I wanted to ask about and that is how does the 1 , 000 ft . setback operate? How does it operate ? G . Totman : You mean from 38 and Sovocool Hill Road ? H . Dow : Yes , those on 222 and the rest of them . G . Totman : On the 222 area , - - that was only for an alternate . That wasn ' t our prime area , - - that was our second choice , - -but the 1 , 000 fte was for the purpose of not having that type of placement along 38 leading into the Village of Groton . If they are set back at least 1 , 000 fto it would allow them to come in from another road as long as it didn ' t extend within 1 , 000 ft . of say the Sovocool Hill Road . H . Dow : So , - - in other words , - - anything coming in Sovocool Hill Road would have to cut off 1 , 000 ft . before , - - G . Totman : Right . R . Walpole : That means a 1 , 000 ft . driveway . G . Totman : If he wanted to put a trailer on Sovocool Hill Road . - 2 - J . Laiacona : You have to make your limits some place , - - if you make limits in the middle of the road you ' ll have mobile homes on one side of the street and conventional homes on the other side . That means that Sovocool Hill Road would then be a road with mobile homes on it so if that was the case you might as well put them on both sides of the road . But rather than this you put them on neither side of the road by putting them 1 , 000 ft . south . R . Walople : Don ' t we already have a mobile home park in the Champlin Road area? What if they want to expand? G . Totman : This is dealing with individual mobile homes , - -not parks . V . Rankin ; The only point is , - MI don ' t think you ' re giving them much space to put mobile homes . G . Totman : We were asked to draw up a suggestive ordinance , - -now the Town Board votes on it and if they don ' t like what we draw up they can add to or draw from it . H . Dow : I guess we have to consider where the land is available . G . Totman : What land is not available today , might be available tomorrow . You have to go by where the land is . R . Walpole : What is the growth pattern for the next 10 years ? G . Totman : Who knows . R . Walpole : How much money did we spend on that report 10 years ago ? That guy was way off . All of these hearings in the different parts of the township , - - was any report ever devised from these hearings ? I was under the impression we would get a report back on these . H . Dow : There was a questionnaire , - -how did that come out? F . Wilson : If that was the impression you got , - - 1 don ' t know where you got it . B . Bucko : I think those hearings were for them to formulate this opinion . Some discussion was held on this by R . Walpole , H . Dow , G . Totman and others . A . Heffron : This shaded area up around Clark Street and Old Stage Road , - - in other words no permits would be granted in that area until the other area was filled ? G . Totman : Or until the Town Board deemed it necessary or would pick another area . A . Heffron : Supposing a fellow came in and wanted to put a trailer on it and he worked in Cortland , - - if he was aware that this area might eventually be open to trailers and wanted to locate there , 3 - A . Heffron : lot closer for him than on Cobb Street because it ' s closer to Cortland , - -would this be considered at the time of the application ? B . Bucko : Not if this was restricted . In fact if we had a revision of the ordinance this area would not even be mentioned . G . Totman : The only reason that was put in there was something for the Town Board to ponder and consider . Some discussion was held on this by all . R . Walpole : Roughly in that area for development , - -how many areas for development for mobile homes would be available in the next 4- 5 years ? H . Fink : That could be a problem , too . R . Walpole : There was a Cornell man just bought some from Barnes up there . V . Rankin : What ' s he buying it for ? Something else? R . Walpole : Yes . J . Laiacona : The question you are asking is really impossible to answer because it depends specifically on the present land owners in that section . No matter in which section of the town you pick land is not for sale unless the person that owns it wants to sell it . R . Walpole : That ' s what I wanted to hear you say . If we are going to restrict it in certain areas and nobody sells we have a problem . B . Bucko : I think everybody ' s got ideas because nobody has the right answers . I think what both the Planning Board and the Town Board , - - the Planning Board has looked at it and now they are throwing it to the Town Board as a suggestion . There are a number of questions I think you have to look at . First , - -do you think trailers have become a problem? Secondly do you want to restrict them? If you do why do you want to ? Because of tax base , orderly planning and so forth ? I think these questions have been looked at and they are saying yes there ' s a problem and we want to restrict them and secondly we have to have a place for them . H . Dow : The law so decrees . B . Bucko : Right . In reaching that decision and from what their observa - tions are they are saying this is where we are going to have them because this is where the growth is not going to be as far as residential development is concerned and this is where we can say they belong or can develop and leave the rest of the town for potential growth in subdivisions which I think are going to come . Does that sum up what you people have talked about ? - 4 - H . Fink : Another thought , - -we have talked about , - - some of our members have , - - some ideas they have had . Some people who want to live in mobile homes or to live in a particular spot , - - if you can only put mobile homes say in West Groton , - - they are not going to move there just to put a mobile home in unless they are transient people . There are 2 sides to that coin , - - they ' ll either put a modular in or just won ' t move here . In fact that happened 3 weeks ago , - -Dana got a call , - - I got a phone call and a lady wanted to put a trailer up in West Groton and called me to see if she could and I said no . She said her son was getting married and wanted to do it now and asked if she could do it in September . I told her I didn ' t know so she said she was going to buy a trailer but she ended up buying a modular instead . She wouldn ' t tell me what she paid for it but when she shopped for a mobile home she told me that dollarwise she found buying a modular a savings compared to buying the mobile home . H . Dow : I have been talking to Garth Jackson at Dryden , and Sanford Green in McLean and also to people at Marine Midland in Cortland and I raised that question - - how can we help our young people and they agreed on 2 - 3 points . No . 1 the banks frown on mobile homes and I said you don ' t call them mobile homes when they ' re double 12 ' s or 14 ' s and they said they did but modular homes they like and they will finance modular homes for 207. down for 20 years but mobile homes they frown on financing more than 12 years . That fits back into the picture of depreciation so therefore could say to all young people that their best investment is the modular home . B . Bucko : The Planning Board has looked at it but I say it ' s the Town Board ' s responsibility now and unless mobile homes are re- stricted in some manner in order for the town to grow , - - they are saying this is the area for trailers to grow . R . Walpole : Why isn ' t this area going to grow? H . Fink : I think we came up with the idea that growth will border on the Ithaca corridor . It depends on how 13 runs into - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - from Cortland . The growth trend is from Cortland . R . Walpole : How many homes in construction ? I think there are 2 new homes being built in the last 9 - 10 months , - - quite a lot of construction coming this way . G . Totman explained to all present why the Planning Board came up with the proposal they presented this evening with regards to mobile home placement . R . Walpole : How many property owners are there in this area ? H . Dow : It wouldn ' t take forever to find out . I could name almost all of them on this road . A . . Heffron : I don ' t think we can expect much future growth in areas like Stauber Road , Lick Street and that particular area over there in the eastern part of town . I think the idea is good but I ' d like to see an area on both sides of the town opened up . 5 - B . Bucko : Stauber Road , - - there ' s a guy already building a subdivision there . G . Totman : Bob Wright is down in that end of town , too , and one of his strong requests is can something be done to assure people buying those homes that there will. not be trailers across the road from them . H . Dow : How much of this reserve area is in the Waterworks , - - there wouldn ' t be any of it , would there ? G . Totman : I think there ' s a little of it . Some discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , H . Dow , V . Rankin and others . F . Wilson : The area we have shown and recommended to you may be large enough to hold trailers for say 10 years but maybe not that long depending on how many are put in there . R . Walpole : What happens if we restrict them all together ? B . Bucko : And just put them in mobile home parks ? G . Totman : Good , - - I ' m all for it . L . Baker : Just try that ! ! Some discussion was held on this by all . B . Bucko : You cannot restrict mobile homes per se but you can restrict them in mobile home parks . H . Dow : Well if we can restrict them in mobile home parks we can also restrict them to certain areas . ( a) Mobile home parks must be located in agricultural areas with a special permit according to our present mobile home ordinance . (b ) Other then in agricultural areas , mobile homes may be located in designated areas , - - single mobile homes may be located in designated mobile home areas . B . Bucko : If you make it part of your planning . H . Dow : This is assuming that this becomes part of our planning . B . Bucko : Right . H . Dow : I suppose that ' s the framework around what everything else evolves . F . Wilson : Is that a special permit or proper permit ? H . Fink : Special permit . - 6 - B . Bucko : Because they have to lay out their park , roads -, sewer and everything so many per acre . G . Totman : Would have to have a public hearing to give people in the area a chance to express their views . H . Fink : Another thing I would like to bring out is whatever is proposed the Planning Board has not got into the other regulations yet such as changing things like where oil tanks and so on may be located . We are willing to work on regulations as far as locating propane cylinders and so on . H . Dow : Every time I read that , I see pertinent things I never noticed before . Now Dana has been enforcing the location of oil tanks . D . Snell : I think if they are at the side of the ,lot , if they put a lattice work around them , they are 0 . K . H . Fink : There are many other things we should cover . Another point that came up if you restrict mobile homes to certain parts of the Town we agreed that we would allow a mobile home to be located anywhere in town for a period of time if whoever it was planned to build a home and wanted the mobile home for temporary housing . We agreed upon a year . We talked about a year or 2 but I think if you go over that and your intention was to build a house and it isn ' t built within a year or 2 you aren ' t going to build it . . One of the things if you asked for a permit to put a mobile home in you would have to get a building permit and show plans for building a home . B . Bucko : If you did that , you ' re going to have problems . He ' ll pay $ 12 , 000 to put in a mobile home with septic and sewer systems and all of a sudden runs out of money and you have to kick him out . H . Fink : This is what we discussed . How do you get him to leave ? H . Dow : You ' re defeated right off the bat . Some discussion was held on this by all . G . Totman showed R . Walpole a copy of the survey taken at the 4 special meetings and explained that the Planning Board found they weren ' t getting a true sample of the Town as a whole because the same people , mostly mobile home owners , came to all 4 meetings and completed the questionnaires at each . H . Dow : I ' m going to take this position with the Planning Board . I know they met many times and have given this an awful lot of thought . Maybe I was aware of what was going on and I ' ve gone to some of those sectional meetings and I don ' t think there ' s any way humanly possible to meet with everyone in the area and I don ' t think we would have gotten any more representative opinion than we did . - 7 - R . Walpole : I asked the question at the January and February meetings as to when we would be getting information and here it is April . B . Bucko : They were the ones to get the information and after they formulated their opinion based on that information they were to come and present it to the Town Board , R . Walpole : I agree but I thought we would have . some jam sessions ahead of time to see how they were coming . H . Dow : I think we got to bring this thing to the table and if we want to use it 0 . K . and if we don ' t we don ' t , - - that ' s what they have set up for us . A . Heffron : Is there any movement underway that anyone knows of to locate a trailer park in this area in the Eastern section ? G . Totman : Not that I know of . R . Walpole : I think the cost factor is too high . B . Bucko : No , - -but the people up there , - - at least one developer doesn ' t want trailers up there because the people that have come up to talk to him about the land don ' t want them . H . Fink : He had that sold and when he found it was for a mobile home he reneged on the deal . G . Totman : You ' re talking about someone else . Steinhauer sold B . Bucko : The idea there was to be no mobile homes in there and when he found out he couldn ' t put a mobile home in there he wouldn ' t sell to him . J . Laiacona : There ' s a point Mr .Walpole has been bringing up , I would like to take a moment to speak to the idea of us conferring with the Town Board as we went along . There was a question as to when we should go to the Town Board with what we are thinking and how our plans were developing and we had , - -how can I say it , - -we had such an amount of discussion and so many various ideas that we thought the best thing we could do was to make one solid recommendation and , as it stands now unless there were some significant changes in the Planning Board , I don ' t believe that we could give you another recommendation because we have batted this around for 8 months screaming and hollering and going to every resource we could think of to try and find out what is best and we are saying as far as we see it this is where it goes . Now it ' s up to the Town Board to have the wisdom Town fathers are supposed to have , - -you know- - I could say that we could do better but that ' s because each one of us has a better plan individually but collectively we don ' t and can ' t agree on anything but this and even this is because the majority ruled . H . Dow : If we have any more wisdom , here ' s the time for us to prove it . A . Heffron : I don ' t really understand this 1 , 000 ft . setback , - - it seems excessive . 8 - H . Fink : The main reason is not to allow them on one side of the road and not the other . Some discussion was held on this by A . Heffron , H . Fink and others . G . Totman : Another thought that was passed around was suppose that this was passed and you have other areas here with people living in mobile homes , - - I ' m looking ahead a year - - and this is in effect and Joe Blow on Bossard Road has a mobile home , - - how long can he keep that or how many times can he replace it ? Do we want to eventually eliminate the mobile homes . 0 . K . We could put it in the proposal that they could be replaced twice but no more . R . Walpole * Now for example , - - say Dryden allows them in this area and Lansing allows them in this area and we have Cayuga County to the north where there is no zoning at all , - -what happens if everything west of Route 38 property owners can have one or two mobile homes and after that it ' s rezoned ? B . Bucko : He would have to come in for a mobile home park if there were 2 or more . H . Fink : If they deeded them separately it wouldn ' t be a park , Ben . B . Bucko : That ' s the loophole that has to be changed . Some discussion was held on this by B . Bucko , R . Walpole , H . Fink and others . H . Fink : I have another recommendation , ymI went back to the studies that were done in the late ' 60 ' s and how far wrong they were ! I think all ordinances should be reviewed periodi - cally , - - say within every 5 years at least . You should keep checking to see how the growth area is in the different years . R . Walpole : I do feel , - - for example take Schefflers , - - I do feel they should have some place to put their help if they have to hire a hired man . J . Laiacona : We thought about that possibility and that ' s why we suggested the placement of temporary mobile homes for one year . H . Fink : I ' m a farmer but if we did that we would have the people who live in single conventional homes very upset . You can get into a problem with that , too . R . Walpole : I do ,agree that we need a lot stronger enforcement . A . Heffron : I find no fault with this plan basically but if the Board things this Old Stage Rd . area will be eventually suitable for mobile homes why isn ' t it suitable right now ? I ' d like to see something in that end of the township closer to the Cortland area than what we have . 9 - � A � ��� i� A . Heffron : I realize there ' s a trailer park on the .-Sla:gsteiii� toad , - - is that full ? H . Fink : I think there are 2 empty lots . A . Heffron : So that can ' t grow substantially . H . Fink : They could if they wanted to but they probably won ' t . G . Totman : We ' re only suggesting that area in case this other area gets overcrowded . A . Heffron : If it ' s suitable 5 years from now why isn ' t it suitable now ? G . Totman : We felt it wasn ' t needed now . There are people that would rather not see them in that area . Some discussion was had on this by B . Bucko , A . Heffron and others . R . Gleason : I ' d hate to be the person who has land in this area . Some discussion was held on what restrictions should be made re . mobile homes like block foundations , set backs and so forth . s H . Fink : Very shortly you ' ll see minimum lot sizes of an acre . The County Planning is trying to push the Health Department in- to doing that . J . Laiacona : I have a strong recommendation and I hope you don ' t think I ' m saying this to torture you all but Josephine has kept very good minutes of all of our meetings and it would take you several evenings to read them and go over them but we have studied a lot of alternatives and came in with maps and studies of growth and recommendations with everything on soil and roads and I would recommend that you take some of that information . G . Totman : The minutes are all on file here . J . Laiacona : I know that but what I ' m saying is that the report is not hastily drawn . It ' s a very large circle and we can keep going round and round and the problem is the line has to be drawn somewheres . H . Dow : Bob , and Arland , and Verl , do you think on the basis of what we have here , - - as a Town Board we can go ahead with Ben ' s help and make a judgment ? R . Walpole : I want to study it more . H . Dow : I would like to do two things , with respect to the Planning Board , - - first of all to thank them for what they have done and ask them to stand by right through the moratorium as 1 0 - H . Dow : resource people so we can come up with something we can defend . When it comes to defending this at a public hearing would need a spokesman or two from the Planning Board to defend our stand . H . Fink : The only problem is at the public hearing you ' re going to have the same thing as we have here . It always seems when it comes to a hearing only the people directly affected turn up . L . Baker : Your home owners are affected too . H . . Fink : But they never come . B . Bucko : You have to give a story out as to why it ' s recommended and how it affects the home owners in this Town . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , V . Rankin , H . Dow that some home owners had been present at the special meetings but did not speak up because of their neighbors . G . Totman : In reference to what Joe has been talking about , - -we feel that once the Town Board has acted upon something for mobile homes then this program that we have started , and Joe has been doing most of the work on - - making maps with plastic overlays , -- - then we should go back to the regular ordinance and start to work on it with some good basic background and sit down and discuss it and then we can get this outside help that Joe and Roger have been talking about at Cornell but there isn ' t enough time to do that type of thing with this but we feel we should do this in a year or two and will probably have recommended changes for this . R . Walpole : When you were working on this was there any input on what Cayuga County ' s program is going to be ? R . Gleason : No . We did have a phone call from a member in Lansing who would like to get together with us . Some discussion was held on what the position of the Town of Dryden , Homer and so on is with respect to mobile homes . Harvey Fink said the biggest problem that the Town of Virgil has is their Board of Appeals who give permission for anything they are asked for . They have never turned down any request in 5 years so consequently their ordin- ance is useless . I saw him in January and he told me that after the meeting with us last fall they recommended that the Town of Homer ' s ordinance which allows no mobile homes at all . H . Dow : I know we are grateful for all that you ' ve done and if you ' ll stand by until September our next move is to get some Town Board focusing on this . - 11 - G . Totman : Basically what we wanted to do tonight was give this to you and let you take it and discuss it . F . Wilson : You can look at that and maybe think we got it together in 5 minutes and came up with an idea . It looks simple on paper but it ' s not . H . Dow : Alright then , - - I think in the ensuing weeks , as soon as we can , will ask Ben to give some serious thought as to the aspects we have to consider . In other words you ' re saying the subdivision should be restructured ? G . Totman : What we ' re saying is there ' s a provision in the mobile home ordinance that mentions subdivisions . H . Dow : Pick out what you ' re referring to and I ' ll make a pencilled notation in there . We have new copies from the zoning ordinance . Does anyone on the Planning Board need a copy of the land subdivision regulations ? Joe , do you have one ? J . Laiacona : I don ' t think so . H . Dow : If you can make use of it , - - there it is . H . Fink : This is it , - - if we eliminated that we would be better off . H . Dow : This paragraph ? H . Fink : I think we said what we came here for and it ' s up to the Town Board to meet and decide what you think . Hicks , - - is there anything else you think we should discuss ? The meeting is now officially closed at 9 : 30 P .M . However the Planning Board will reconvene for about two minutes . Mr . Fink handed Mrs . Bell his letter of resignation as chairman of the Planning Board and asked that it be attached and made a part of these minutes . G . Totman : Has everybody read Harvey ' s letter ? He ' s requesting us to accept his letter of resignation as chairman . J . Laiacona made a motion that it be accepted which was seconded by Roger Gleason and roll call vote was as follows : R . Gleason - Yes J . Laiacona - Yes - G . Totman - No F . Wilson - No . G . Totman : We would like to have time until the next meeting to discuss who will replace you and would like you to stay on until after the next meeting . 12 - G . Totman : We have accepted your resignation but I make a motion asking you to carry on through the next meeting as an interim chairman . R . Gleason : I second the motion . Motion carried and Mr . Fink agreed to do so . H . Fink : The next meeting will be at 8 P .M . on May 13th . J . Laiacona made the motion that the meeting be adjourned which was seconded by R . Gleason and motion carried . The meeting adjourned at 9 * 45 P .M . Respectfully submitted, � . 400C t ✓ Jos Ohine Bell 13 - ( Letter of Resignation attached ( as page 14 of these minutes . ) April 22 , I976 Dear planning Board Members = As some of you might know I have been elected Chief of the McLean Fire Department . In this capacity I feel it will take alot of my time , so I would like to resign as Chairman of the planning Board . I ° ve enjoyed worfing with you as Chairman , but I feel the time has come for me to let someone else reign as Chairman . I will try to participate as much as before , and I will extend my help. to who ever is Chairman_ . Thank You , Harvey A. .. Fink - 14 -