Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout1976-04-08 w MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD Held at the Town Hall , Groton , New York Thursday , April 8 , 1976 - 8 * 20 P .M . PRESENT : H . Fink - Chairman* G . Totman - Vice -Chairman* D . Payne* J . Laiacona* Co Twigg* F . Wilson* R . Gleason* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* * - Denotes those present . Mr . Fink called the meeting to order at 8 * 30 P .M . H . Fink : Just to make a note- - On March 28th , I think it was at 2 P .M . the membersr• of the Groton Town Planning Board reviewed the Town by automobile . We took in a vast area of West Groton and also the northeast corner of the town . That ' s just for informa- tion . I believe we have all read this , - - George Totman has made a presentation with reasons or theories why we ' re discussing this and possibly this is somewhat of an answer to the problem . G . Totman : This thing I drew up , - - I hope that I understood it , - - that we , - - the way I drew it up is the way I felt we left the last meeting and I merely put in writing what we discussed so it would speed things up for this meeting . All I did was add to it why we did what we did at the meeting and I present it tonight for people to look at , agree with , or maybe make changes , or come up with something better . If not , I think we should move on it . because the Town Board are looking for us to make our presenta- tion to them the first part of May so they will have time to work on it . Once we have decided where trailers are going we have to spend some time at a meeting or two deciding on what conditions are going in those spots , - -what is going to be allowed for setbacks , skirting and all that sort of thing so don ' t feel we have time to keep talking about where they have to go , - -we have to make a decision . J . Laiacona : Doesn ' t this problem , in effect , just allow mobile homes in the southwest corner of Groton ? G . Totman : Out there , - -Yes ; - - that ' s right . J . Laiacona : Doesn ' t that exclude them from the northeast corner ? - 1 - G . Totman : Yes , - - well it mentions that northeast corner , - -what didn ' t show up on the map is the yellow . I colored those . We were ' suggesting , as we felt the other night , that would be an area that they would look at if they felt they needed more room than the southwest corner . This would be a possibility over here in our opinion but , as a first step , felt that thag would be the most logical place . H . Fink : We have to do something , - -hopefully we ' ll meet with the Town Board in the month of April andpresent it . G . Totman : I ' d like to see some discussion on it , - -maybe someone else has something better . J . Laiacona : The only discussion I have is that I went to the maps to find out where the land was and I would just like to have a minute to show you what I found . I got the soil map of the Town of Groton and I went through - - now perhaps someone here can do a better job than I did . Taking the soil survey for Tompkins County I went through a survey of soils called Table 14 In- terpretation of Engineering Properties of Soils and going through all the soils that are listed in Tompkins County I found those soils that were listed with the engineering properties that I felt were best suited for housing and I thought that were for building foundations and infiltration systems and then I went through all the soils and found those that were useable for building foundations and useable for septic tanks which is what you would want to have where you would put your house obviously and I found out ofTlod-on ' t know how many soils were listed , - - I found 12 soil types that in one way or another are suitable for housing . They are not all exactly the same but they are basically - - - - - - - - - - kinds of soils with an acceptable water level and that drain fairly quickly so that your septic tank will work and is the kind you can dig into and also that has grades that are permissible to build on so that rules out any of your very , very steep hills and then I came up with the - - - - - you go to the map finding those 12 soil types in the Town of Groton and I did this and outlined them in green . Those green areas are the soils that are best suited for building homes and mobile homes on . This is the Cayuga County Line , Lansingville , Peruville-Lansing , this is the east side and this is the west side of the Town . H . Fink : This would be McLean . J . Laiacona : That ' s McLean . D . Payne : I don ' t think you ' re talking mobile homes , as much as homes . J . Laiacona : But they do require septic systems . D . Payne : All homes require septic systems but mostly - sand- filters are required . J . Laiacona : According to this , these grounds will take septic systems . - 2 - G . Totman : Yes , - -but the laws have changed , - -when was that book put out ? You ' re looking at the ideal conditions , - - if you ' re looking at the patterns of growth it hasn ' t followed the ideal conditions . J . Laiacona : George , - - take the book home and find soils to put mobile homes on . I went down the list . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , J . Laiacona and others . H . Fink : Before we go any further , - -Roger did you read this here ? And Cecil have you? G . Totman : I think what Joe has done is great because this is what we are always talking about , - -we don ' t have these overlays and we should take these and put them on myloc but I don ' t really believe that at this particular time we have time now to go pick over the soils and this kind of thing tomake our decision on the mobile homes . For one thing , people aren ' t looking at that sort of thing , - - they are buying where they can get the land but this is what we ' ll need when we go over the overall ordinance because once we get the mobile home situation out of our hands and into the Town Board ' s hands then we have to go back and study the whole ordinance , which the Town Board asked us to do over a year ago and these are the sort of things we ' ll need for that . But now they are looking for us to come up with a written pre- pared proposal by the first of May so they can discuss it at their meeting . J . Laiacona : I guess the only recommendation that I had to make after doing this , - - is perhaps there are some soils I left out so this area could be increased . I don ' t think so , - - I tried to be very liberal in picking soils but have to admit I have to cast a dissenting vote as the area we picked for mobile homes will be more concentrated and therefore has to be a better area to withstand larger population for septic and sewer systems so , therefore , it should be on soils that are for that and to put them out here or over here is basically unrealistic - - the land will not take it . G . Totman : Fine . F . Wilson ; What you are doing , - - certainly we can ' t put them right around here and there ' s not enough area in this corner to do it and if you ' re proposing we put them over here that will take the best land we have in the township . D . Payne : Which is already heavily populated . G . Totman : You want to preserve that . J . Laiacona : You want to preserve it for housing for two reasons , - - it ' s best able- - G . Totman : I agree but what kind of population ? J . Laiacona : And it ' s going to be closest to access to public highways so - 3 - J . Laiacona : they can move to wherever they want to go . t F . Wilson : What you are proposing is to allow people with low tax-base to live there and take away the good tax base . J . Laiacona : Obviously this is suitable . We are all living on it . It ' s suitable because of the low density of population which- - - - - - - - - - - - -up . My 12 acres will handle one septic tank so , therefore , can put one house on it with lots of land around it which is basically what is happening and that , to me , if what you are talking about , - - conventional homes , - - any land can handle that but when you are talking about taking one section and putting all your mobile homes there then you are going to have problems and I ' m saying if we are going to take a section unsuitable for population and put all mobile homes there we should just eliminate them entirely . G . Totman : We ' re not trying to encourage mobile homes , - -we ' re trying to discourage them a little bit and if you take your prime land you are defeating your purpose in the first place . J . Laiacona : But what you are doing is , - -you ' re telling people they have a place to put mobile homes when it ' s not the place to put them . R . Gleason : But you ' re saying on large lots . The point Joe is making , - - there ' s people who need low cost housing and are we providing an area for low cost housing . If not we have to provide something else . G . Totman : At the last meeting , before we went home , made motion on the land we are going to set aside and now we ' re starting all over again and if we go this route will leave tonight with nothing solid and can study it for the next 3 months and the moratorium is going to be off in September . F . Wilson : It ' s a fact that you could have as many mobile homes in this area if you put the proper type of septic system in . There ' s no doubt about that and it ' s a fact can put modulars in there , too . Some discussion was held on this by all present . H . Fink : Before we go any further , I tend to agree with George a little bit . I think we have the pros and cons and possibly 7 ideas but I think - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - are pushing conventional homes and , in my opinion , we would possibly want the majority or large growth of people living here to go to live in conventional homes in the better soils of the town be cause whether it ' s a mobile home , modular , or conventional home , it still requires a septic system but I think we have to take issue , - -- the meeting so far sounds like the last 3 or 4 meetings to me and I would like to see our board come to some decision to - night where we want to place them . G . Totman : We already have a motion passed on that . - 4 - H . Fink : And passed unanimously . I think everybody was here . 0 . K . , George has made a proposal which covers this . G . Totman : I think I wrote it up to follow that motion . F . Wilson : There has been one change , - -we were going to use the northeast corner , George . D . Payne : Right . We specified two areas at that time . G . Totman : 0 . K . but there was some thought that it could be a possible alternative so that ' s how I wrote it up . F . Wilson : I think we should commend Joe on what he did on this . G . Totman : Yes , that is great . D . Payne : I think it can be used in more than one situation . G . Totman : We should go to the Town Board and get them to let us spend some money to put these on the right kind of overlays so we can keep them . H . Fink : I agree . CO Twigg : They allowed us $ 1 , 000 , didn ' t they ? H . Fink : That was for the moratorium . G . Totman : They have other money set aside . C . Twigg : How much would this cost ? G . Totman : He did this , and others , that would help us greatly when we are working on the whole ordinance . F . Wilson : I would like the next order of business to be whether or not we are going to exclude that corner . H . Fink : Any discussion on George ' s proposal? F . Wilson : Yes , - - I would like to , - - I ' m sure , - -with all due respect to George , - - I think we ought to present this as promptly as possible and George might have to change some thoughts here . In the second paragraph , something puzzles me there , - - "Not only was there a large influx of . . . . . . . . " . I don ' t understand what you are saying . G . Totman : I ' m talking about the whole town now . What I ' m saying is we are getting , - - the percentage of the two is greater in mobile homes and because of this Dana is having a hard time enforcing the rules we have . They are ambiguous in places , - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - they can go anywheres if they meet certain requirements and there ' s no - 5 - G . Totman : way of controlling where they are going so the Town Board looked at it and decided to stop them from coming in until we could redo the ordinance . That was what I was saying in that one sentence . F . Wilson : You ' re relating your remarks as it pertains to mobile homes ? G . Totman : Yes , - - everything referenced in here is referenced for mobile homes . F . Wilson : On page 2 you say "Therefore it is recommended . . . . . . . " and then you have something about 1040 feet , I don ' t think we agreed to that ? R . Gleason : That whole thing , - - F . Wilson : I ' m talking about square footage but how did we get 1000 ft * east of Route 389 H . Fink : Because it ' s low intensity all the way through . R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - - if anybody just reading this who didn ' t know that , - - there ought to be some references . D . Payne : This is for presentation to the Town Board only . F . Wilson : I think that might be 500 ft . as it stands now I ' m not sure . G . Totman : Let ' s change that , then , - -you ' re right , - - there ' s something wrong with that . Some discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , J . Laiacona , H . Fink , C . Twigg , F . Wilson and G . Totman on the footage . J . Laiacona : Why are you allowing mobile homes in commercial areas ? F . Wilson : That regulation may exclude them , - - does anybody know? D . Payne : Yes . J . Laiacona : It says : "all areas east of . . . . . . " G . Totman : Does the regular ordinance allow mobile homes in commercial areas ? H . Fink : Yes , G . Totman : I don ' t care , - - just word it so we can do it the way we made the motion . More discussion was held on this by all present . F . Wilson : 0 . K . , - - so how do you want to word it , George? G . Totman : Therefore it is recommended that mobile homes will not be allowed in areas east of Route 38 in the Town of Groton . - 6 on f H . Fink : We ' ll get this done and put on the last page what you ' re saying and that we ' ll be studying the whole ordinance for the whole town , - - all phases of it and will come back with recommendations within 12 or 24 months . G . Totman : They are expecting us to come up with something . H . Fink : You can put on there , George , that we will look at the whole ordinance again . R . Gleason : We need professional help and need to do the thing , - - H . Fink : We can do something like that but let ' s finish this up . Either we agree to it or we don ' t . F . Wilson : Shall we eliminate that paragraph , George ? The second paragraph on page 2 ? G . Totman : Yes , F . Wilson : Are we all done with page 2 and on page 3 now? H . Fink : Continue Fred . F . Wilson : 0 . K . the second paragraph on page 3 is repetitious . R . Gleason : Excuse me , - - did you decide to leave that paragraph on Lick Street in ? There ' s another ambiguity there . . . . - -how far north of 2227 F . Wilson : It must be right up to it . R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - -but what about Lick Street ? G . Totman : Should be 1000 ft . north of Route 222 . Further discussion was held on this by F . Wilson , R . Gleason , G . Totman and others . F . Wilson : On page 3 , the second paragraph , - - I think we have eliminated the need for that when we said we are only going to have mobile homes in this one certain area , -- O . K . ? J . Laiacona : On the bottom of page 2 it says : "The above described land being rural in nature lends itself . . . . . " I think that , according to the soil , that statement is erroneous and I want to go on record as saying that . G . Totman : I 'm not saying the soil is right or anything else , -- that ' s where they are putting them . J . Laiacona : But I think , as a town planner , you should take that into considera- tion . C . Twigg : I do , too . R . Gleason : If we go to a public hearing and someone is smart and hires a law- yer , I don ' t think we have a leg to stand on . - 7 - f G . Totman : We can eliminate them completely if we want to . J . Laiacona : Alright , then , do that . Some discussion was held on this by all . G . Totman : The whole thing , behind this whole thing , is that we are getting too many mobile homes and now you ' re saying let ' s make it avail - able for mobile homes and we ' re getting away from the whole point . H . Fink : Would it be alright with everybody if we said : "The above des - cribed land . . . . . " , - -would you be willing to delete that sentence ? CO Twigg : I think that George is right , in a way , the above described land being rural in nature appears to be the place to have this kind of dwelling because that is what is there - - - but it certainly can ' t , - - - there are dense population , - -but that is not what George is saying and I don ' t think there will be dense population and I think that is why he says it ' s for trailers because they are there now . Not that the land itself is particularly adapted to it . H . Fink : 0 . K . , - - then the second sentence explains it , then . F . Wilson : Do you want to take the first sentence out ? G . Totman : I don ' t care . More discussion was held on this by all present . F . Wilson : I ' ll make a motion that we recommend to the Town Board that mobile homes be allowed in the area described on page 2 , last paragraph , of George ' s proposal and I further make a motion that we accept George ' s presentation in concept . D . Payne : I second the motion . H . Fink : Any discussion? All in favor ? D . Payne - Aye - C . Twigg - Aye - F . Wilson - Aye G . Totman - Aye - R . Gleason - Nay J . Laiacona - Nay . H . Fink : So voted . O . K . , - - I wish we could have all be in agreement but we ' re not . G . Totman : We have a lot to discuss . H . Fink : Cecil , would you like to ask your question ? CO Twigg : It ' s regarding temporary housing , -- say like there ' s a fire or sometimes a farmer takes on a hired man and is going to build a house for him the next summer or a guy buys a plot of land and wants to move on it and buys a $ 1 , 000 trailer to move into while he is building his house . This is for temporary housing , - - not necessarily disaster- type housing but a lot of people like to build their own houses and if they have a well or septic system they could hook a trailer onto it for say a year or - 8 - C . Twigg : whatever time it takes them to build their house . Some discussion was held on this point by all . H . . Fink : Could Cecil ' s idea be incorporated ? G . Totman : I don ' t know . I can see the merit in having some energency type housing available and its covered in the regular zoning ordinance for various things that happen in case of fire , - - it ' s also in the present moratorium but I really don ' t comprehend how our Town , from past experiences , can enforce something after say a year and tell them to move out . Now it is legal and has been done in other areas but not in this Town . I 'm not against what you ' re saying , - - I think it has merit . But once they are in they can come up with 101 reasons why they are going to stay there . Further discussion was held on this by all present . J . Laiacona : I ' d like to make a motion that the placement of mobile homes be allowed on a temporary basis for those people with building permits for building conventional type homes , they have to have their permits first to build conventional home , that they can move in a mobile home for one year only and at the end of the one year it may not be occupied and will have to be removed . H . Fink : 'There ' s a motion on the floor . C . Twigg : I ' ll second the motion . H . Fink : Any discussion? F . Wilson : Two points come to my mind and I ' d like to mention both of them before you attack either one . I have two concerns , - -one is the size of the lot and whether or not they will need a variance to put mobile home by conventional home and the second is should have a safeguard for their financial situation , - - is the mortgage approved , - - anyone can get a building permit . Some discussion was held on this by H . Fink , C . Twigg , F . Wilson and others . H . Fink : 0 . K . I have a motion seconded , - - those in favor or opposed? C . Twigg - Aye J . Laiacona - Aye R . Gleason - Aye D . Payne - Nay G . Totman - Nay F . Wilson - Nay . H . Fink : I guess I have to vote and I vote Aye , -- the motion is carried . H . Fink : One other thing , - -we vote for a new chairman tonight for the Planning Board . R . Gleason : I move that the present officers continue in their present posts . D . Payne : I second the motion . R . Gleason : I move the polls be closed and the secretary cast one ballot . G . Totman : I second the motion . - 9 - H . Fink ; Boy , - - if we could vote that fast on everything we would have had the mobile home presentation through long before this . D . Payne made a motion that the meeting be adjourned which was seconded by J . Laiacona and the motion carried . The meeting adjourned at 10 * 20 P . M . Respe tfully submitted , Josephine Bell 10 -