HomeMy WebLinkAbout1976-03-11 w
GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING
Held at the Town Hall
Groton , New York
Thursday - March 11 , 1976
8 : 00 P . M .
H . Fink - Chairman*
G . Totman - Vice - Chairman* D . Snell - Zoning Enforcement
F . Wilson* Officer*
R . Gleason*
C . Twigg# J . Bell - Recording Clerk*
J . Laiacona#
# - Denotes those present .
Before the meeting was called to order Mr . Snell .- and members of
the Planning Board held the following discussions :
D . Snell : I ' m wondering what Lockwood was trying to do , - - there
was Lockwood ' s subdivision ( showing Gdorge and Harvey
a map ) - - now see what he is doing . This Wood is still
over there - - a trailer - - this one here is this one .
G . Totman : The acreage has changed . 3 . 7T here and 8 . 4 here . Here
you had Lockwood to Kelly but that didn ' t materialize ,
the whole darned thing is different .
D . Snell : Here , - - this is Wood right off here .
H . Fink : Where would Wood be here ?
G . Totman : That little place there .
D . Snell : What lie has done , 0 guess is - - now you see there ' s
4 and 59 there ' s 950 - 955 say . I don ' t know what
he ' s doing . He ' s deeding that to Fisher and he ' s
deeding this to Fisher . 40 . 1 and 40 . 3 .
H . Fink : 40 . 1 and 40 . 3 .
G . Totman : That ' s Wood ' s , - - this could be because Woods was on a
land contract , - -maybe Woodd didn ' t pay it off so now
he ' s selling it to somebody else . That ' s how these
people make money on contracts .
D . Snell : Yes , - - but see how he ' s splitting that up .
G . Totman : He ' s made a major subdivision out of it so he has to
cited .
D . Snell : It isn ' t up to me now . You ' re the Planning Board , - -
G . Totman : Yes , but you ' re the Enforcement Officer so there ' s
an enforcement application there , - - we haven ' t anything
to do with that .
- 1 -
D . Snell : I wouldn ' t know about this if I hadn ' t looked at
it when it came from Ithaca .
G . Totman : Now the Town Board should have Ben Bucko cite him for
not coming in and getting an application for a major
subdivision .
H . Fink : And he knows better , there ' s no doubt about that .
G . Totman : I think what we should do is bring it up at the next
Town Board meeting and talk to Hicks . By law we have
no power for enforcement except to bring it to some -
body ' s attention .
H . Fink : If we tell Fred about that , - - he ' ll be jumping up and
down on this one .
D . Snell : Now , - - Russ DeMond owns this , - - he sold this , - - what is
he keeping this 110 ft . strip for ?
G . Totman : Maybe to get over to this land over here ?
D . Snell : He doesn ' t own this over here . This is what he owns
here .
G . Totman : That ' s his bueiness . He only sold one piece of land ?
D . Snell : Just one .
G . Totman : It has nothing to do with us , then .
( At this point Mr . Wilson arrived . )
G . Totman : The major thing Dana is bring up to us Fred is Lock -
wood came to us for a subdivision.11ast year and we
approved it the way it is here but now a pink slip
is coming through where he changed all these
boundary lines and moved them over .
F . Wilson : You caught this ?
G . Totman : Dana did .
F . Wilson : Good ,
G . Totman : Here he had 550 ft , and now he has 955 , - - here he had
400 and now 555 and here he had 350 and now its 175 .
And over here this lot didn ' t change . But what he ' s
done he ' s sold 2 more pieces of land which would put
him into a major subdivisi
apply for one , on and he didn ' t come in and
As I see it we should report this to the Town Board and
have Bucko write him a letter saying he is in violation .
F . Wilson : It ' s good you caught it , though .
G . Totman : Yes , very good .
2 -
D . Snell : Now , - - Albert Karn , - - this was the main land , - - see
where the house was and he sold it and reserved evi -
dently this much and onlW has 115 fte that he reserved
frontage .
G . Totman : What he ' s reserved is not legal to put anything on .
D . Snell : No , that ' s right .
H . Fink : Has he sold something off here ?
D . Snell : That was sold a long time ago .
F . Wilson : Then he shouldn ' t have sold this ?
H . Fink : He sold that before , - - doesn ' t give any dimensions of
the lot but the thing he did was get himself in
trouble by only reserving 115 ft . - - there ' s a lot
that isn ' t worth a darn .
R . Gleason : That ' s on Lick Street ?
G . Totman : He did this guy a favor so he can ' t put anything on
it so the guy can buy it cheap .
F . Wilson : There isn ' t any way for having notification sent to
somebody to tell them when it ' s put in ,
H . Fink : It ' s already done .
G . Totman : When you get this it ' s done .
F . Wilson : But prior to that ?
H . Fink : There ' s no way you can check . This is after recording .
He ' s legal as long as he doesn ' t try to put something
on there .
D . Snell : Percy Howe has sold this off and now he ' s selling
around him , - - that makes him two .
H . Fink : That ' s a subdivision . There ' s another violation right
there .
G . Totman : Are you taking notes on that so you can see Hicks on
it ?
H . Fink : No , but I ' ll take their names down .
D . Snell : Now , - - Harold Williams , - - I don ' t know what ' s happening
with him .
H . Fink : How many did he sell off there ?
D . Snell : I don ' t know . -
H . Fink : Acc ording to that map there ' s 4 of them .
D . Snell : It isn ' t even assessed to Williams - - tree lots .
- 3 -
R . Gleason : That ' s still more than 2 . I ' m trying to figure out
where this is . This is Pleasant Valley Road ?
D . Snell : No rth west .
R . Gleason : Peruville is here , - - the bridge is here , - - O . K . up
at the top of the hill .
D . Snell : Do you know where Francis Brockway lives ?
F . Wilson : This is 2 . 9 acres in this particular one , - - that one
right there . This is 7 . 5 acres and it ' s this one .
These 2 are sold at the left .
R . Gleason : There ' s a trailer here and a house here .
H . Fink : According to this , it ' s three .
F . Wilson : I don ' t know .
H . Fink : 0 . K . so we have 3 violations that we know of and one
who has a lot frontage of 115 ft . I ' ll get hold of
Hicks tomorrow .
F . Wilson : 0 . K . but the road frontage of 115 ft . is not a
violation , - - just a bad condition .
H . Fink : A lot of people still don ' t realise it takes 150 ft .
F . Wilson : That ' s not a corner lot ?
R . Gleason : No .
H . Fink : Of the 3 the main ones are Lockwood and Williams .
( Mr . Fink thanked Mr . Snell for his help
and Mr . Snell left at 10 to 9 P . M . at
which point Mr . Fink called the Planning
Board meeting to order . )
Mr . Fink passed out copies of the minutes of
the prior Planning Board meeting to all the
members and Mr . Totman moved that the minutes
of January 27th and February 12 meetings be
approved as written and Mr . Wilson seconded the
motion , - - motion carried unanimously .
H . Fink : The next order of business , - - we have this moratorium
and tonight being the llth of March I think it ' s
about time we came down to the final ideas that we
have on the ordinance for mobile homes . George has
made a previous presentation , - - Joe has and so has Fred
Wilson . At this time let ' s open up for general dis -
cussion and see where we want to go from here . Before
I forget I want somebody to remind me of this that in
the mobile home ordinance it calls for mobile home sub -
division with no definition and whatever ordinance we
entertain to the Town Board there should be a definition
or clarification of a mobile home subdivision .
- 4 -
H . Fink : We have to put that in too . So at least it ' s in the
minutes and should remind me . There ' s no clarifica -
tion of mobile home subdivisions .
0 . K . now let ' s open this up .
F . Wilson : Not to belabor that point but what would be the
difference between a mobile home subdivision and
a conventional home subdivision ?
H . Fink : There ' s a contradiction in the ordinance I believe , - -
2 or more mobile homes on the same lot calls for a
trailer park - - there ' s no definition , - - it doesn ' t give
any so it should be clarified that a mobile home sub -
division would be a trailer park or something to that
effect .
R . Gleason : Isn ' t there some definition on mobile homes on an
individual lot being treated as a single family
dwelling?
H . Fink : Yes , but Grace LePage got us on the law on mobile home
subdivision definition . They found that loophole so
what she did is she bought a lot of land and put mobile
homes on yet retained ownership on all of them .
F . Wilson : I remember that now .
H . Fink : She gave the land to her daughters and her son . We
just need legal terminology for the mobile home ordin -
ance . This is what started off this whole mobile home
- - - - - and Ben Bucko does have one made up that he ' ll
give use So much for that . Let ' s get back on the
mobile homes . I ' d like to add that on mobile homes
they are all to be put on a cement foundation . That
would changes the tax structure of the mobile home , - -
it wouldn ' t be a mobile home any more and wouldn ' t be
taxed as one any more .
Regardless of the areas , - - Al A2 - - I still believe
they should be on a foundation . That ' s just my
opinion .
C . Twigg : What would you consider a foundation , - - a slab ?
H . Fink : No . It would have to be poured concrete with a - - - - - -
We would have to get - -
G . Totman : That ' s what a slab is .
H . Fink : A slab could be just a ' flat base with the trailer set
on it , - - I don ' t mean that .
R . Gleason : I guess there ' s a problem , - - there ' s - - I had a nice
booklet on it and thought it was in that package but
it isn ' t . I had a thing on siding of mobile homes
and in it it shows how a mobile home can be placed on
- 5 -
R . Gleason : a foundation and that would take care of the require -
ments of skirting and everything . I guess Harvey we
could say on a foundation , - - there could be one like
that .
Some discussion was held on this by all .
H . Fink : We have to get down to what road we ' re going to go on .
I think it would also help to realize that they just
can ' t pull in , unhook and there they are .
G . Totman : We have to come to some things , - - first we talked about
where we are going to put them and then what we are
going to do when they are put there and we really
aren ' t getting anywhere .
R . Gleason : We talked about these things , - - we have some proposals
and they have some merits but it seems to me why don ' t
we just get up on a sheet of paper some things we can
agree on , - - what the problems are , - - and possible
solutions and keep working from that ?
H . Fink : 0 . K . maybe we can start off Roger with this . George
has made a proposal and I ' m sure you ' re all familiar
with it .
F . Wilson : Page 5 , - - is that the one ? - - January 27th9
H . Finks Yes . If you want to read it again we ' ll take the time
to do so .
Some discussion followed as to where mobile
homes would be allowed .
G . Totman : The Al zone will be located that part of Peruville
Lansing Road , down Lansing Road to - - - - - - - - - -Road
500 ft . north of - - - - - - - - - Road and up that road
to Peruville Road to 38 following 500 ft . down through
here , - - all in that area is the Al .
Let ' s make a motion we agree that there will be some
areas of the Town where mobile homes will not be
allowed .
J . Laiacona : I second the motion .
H . Fink : I ' ll call for a vote .
F . Wilson : I ' m not inclined to go along with that . I think we
have to go back another step myself , - - I don ' t think
we have pinpointed exactly what the problem is .
G . Totman : You have to start somewheres .
, C . Twigg : What the problem is - - one of them is the tax base , - -
we ' re trying to protect the tax base and another thing
we are trying to protect property values , - - individuals
property values , - - say if a guy comes in and pays
- 6 -
C . Twigg : $ 30 , 000 for a home and real estate people tell us a
trailer can depreciate this by $10 , 000 , I think we
owe these people some protection as well as protecting
our tax base . Now how are we going to do that , - - what
are we going to come up with , - -we want to protect these
individuals .
R . Gleason : Right , we have to protect the investment , - - yet under
present laws that is not the whole picture any more
and so you have to look at social values , too .
H . Fink : Not to cut y➢ou short , Roger , but when you say social
values we ' re giving them a place to go . 0 . K .
F . Wilson : My feeling at this point in time , and I ' m still not sure
what my final feeling would be on it , - - I would like to
see the ordinance as it stands now enforced to the
extent where there would be an incentative for a per -
son to develop a mobile home trailer park or parks
and that restrictions be put on prospective mobile
home owner that he would prefer to be in a park .
G . Totman : I agree with your thoughts but it just won ' t work in
our Town because they won ' t enforce it .
F . Wilson : Then we are penalizing people because the Town Board
won ' t enforce it .
More discussion was held on this by all .
H . Fink : I think our minds are made up and further discussion
would delay things so if you would like to vote on
the motion , - -
Roll call vote was as follows :
C . Twigg - Yes F . Wilson - No . R . Gleason - Yes
J . Laiacona - Yes G . Totman - Yes H . Fink - Yes .
J . Laiacona : Now I ' d like to know how are we going to restrict ?
Fred brought one point up and that is building code
- - I think that 6ecil ' s been thinking about
restrictions in terms of lot size . Mine says
prohibition . Those are the 3 things I thought of
for how . I haven ' t thought of any other ways of
how we can restrict but those are 3 ways we can talk
about .
C . Twigg : Actually we ' re only discussing the A and B areas .
You kind of hateto set up a living standard for
somebody else but if you don ' t you automatically
the rest of the people have to live by the
living standard that these people set forth . In
other words if we - - if you get a junk heap do both
sides of you that ' s the neighborhood you ' re living in
and not by your choice but because of someone else ' s
choice so actually if we don ' t take some steps
like this we ' re going to be infringing on the rights
- 7 -
C . Twigg : of people , too . If we don ' t set up some standards
will be infringing on some people ' s rights .
So we ' re going to discuss the how rather than the where
first ? You think the how comes before the where ?
J . Laiacona : Yes because we may decide on different kinds of
restrictions in different kinds of places .
R . Gleason : We might allow them in this area but not in some
other areas where it would be more restrictive .
J . Laiacona : You could delineate placement of mobile homes without
even having an ordinance - - could break it up into
lot size of 150 - 200 and others of 5 acres minimum .
G . Totman : That ' s the way Homer got around the ordinance . In
their ordinancd the zoning ordinance doesn ' t mention
mobile homes per se at all but in their mobile home
ordinance it says that no house trailer shall be
parked or located on any land in the town other than
an approved trailer park unless permitted in . . . . . . .
F . Wilson : Cortland has done what Joe has just mentioned . You ' ve
hit on something , - I would be inclined to be happy
with that .
J . Laiacona : There would have to be the same requirements for
conventional homes .
F . Wilson : Would there be any merit in this idea , - - to exclude
trailers from the area around the Village of Groton?
J . Laiacona : My only comment on that is , - - we ' re talking about
where again not how . We can ' t figure out where
we ' re going to do it until we decide how we ' re going
to do it .
R . Gle ason : Really what we should be looking at is sewer and
water and so on .
F . Wilson : What are your thoughts on this , - -not have any mobile
homes in this area unless they are in a trailer park .
Over to Pleasant Valley Road and Old Salt Road .
R . Gleason : How would it be , - - you have a proposal Fred , - - George
has a proposal , - - I still think we ' re basically
thinking about trailers but again we would be think -
ing about what do we want and how do we encourage
that .
G . Totmat : I ' ll agree with your idea ou re talking
, - - ' about
Y
this road and this road up to there if you ' in -
clude this area here also .
R . Gleason : Supposing we took Fred ' s idea - - no mobile homes
except for parks then you have your idea that we
would encourage mobile homes in certain areas , - -
O . K . so we write it in such a way that we would
encourage people coming in to buy and develop
mobile homes in the areas you outlined before and
8 -
R . Gleason : then set up regulations in such a way so that we
don ' t - - in some areas they are not prohibited
but there are restrictions to the point that it
discourages them .
G . Totman : My provisions said this way to 38 no mobile homes , - -
you ' re saying basically the same thing right out to
here .
F . Wilson : 0 . K . do you want to go from this point to here , - -
can have mobile homes there from here to here ?
G . Totman : That would be agreeable to me but you have 7 members
on the Board .
F . Wilson : You ' re protecting the growth in the McLean area .
G . Totman : What you said is fine with me but you have 2 members
on the Board that live here and don ' t want trailers
but that shouldn ' t be a criteria . But the area that
you and I are talking about Fred are the areas we are
living in .
F . Wilson : I ' d like to think we can make a decision that ' s
fair to everybody .
R . Gleason : Why couldn ' t we , - - say maybe we would have a park here
could it be maybe next to the one that ' s being
developed , - - is there any other place that it could be ?
G . Totman : You can put a park anywheres .
C . Twigg : We decided it ' s not wise to put one in where there
are no facilities .
F . Wilson : Is there any reason why we would have to have all
this allowable , - - could we go from Spring Street to
here and here and have everything else with mobile
homes ? How large an area do we need for mobile homes ?
G . Totman : Fine , - - I ' ll buy that .
C . Twigg : Yes , I ' ll buy that .
!�• Laiacona : You ' ll buy ' . ar�ything ® . _George .
G . Totman : You ' ll buy that , too .
We have to have sound reasoning behind it . My feeling
is the bulk of the growth between Ithaca and Cortland
will go through here . It ' s an established fact .
That ' s going to be the fastest growing area in
central New York State . That ' s why I say let ' s now
before it happens preserve that land . That ' s my reason
for making that area restrictive .
J . Laiacona : But your restrictions make it for low growth .
G . Totman : No , I ' m saying only for low tax base , I want high tax
- 9 -
G . Totman : base .
Some discussion was held on this by R .
Gleason , G . Totman , J . Laiacona and
others .
H . Totman : Once we get the mobile home ordinance done I envision
- - the Town Board has already asked us to look at our
low intensity areas again and make more land available
for commercial use .
J . Laiacona : The most feasible way of determining both uses
and where we ' re not restricting mobile homes is
first to do what Roger says to do and that is to
determine what growth patterns we ' re going to have
in the Town of Groton and it seems to me there are
4 types of area to consider , - - first heavy residential
the kinds you have in the village and the suburbs only
with conventional homes .
C . Twigg : And municipal .
J . Laiacona : Also heavy residential which is mobile homes , - - there ' s
a third category we haven ' t considered yet and that
is low residential , - - I don ' t know as much about farms
as most people in the Town of Groton but do know some
areas that are really good for farming and then perhaps
we should say we should protect those areas so that the
farmer there can still farm .
G . Totman : He determines that by not selling the land .
H . Fink : You also have agricultural districts which prohibit
heavy growth .
G . Totman : Our whole Town of Groton now is practically in
agricultural district .
R . Gleason : Except for Cobb Street ,
J . Laiacona : And then have fourth area , commercial industrial type
area and I think here we ' re talking about this area and
that area but we ' re not considering planning for what
is the best use for those areas and that , to me , really
should be our next consideration . Instead of dividing
this up into mobile homes and conventional homes , I
think we should divide it up into residential areas ,
commercial areas , low intensity areas and high in -
tensity areas . That ' s what I think is the next thing
we have to do .
R . Gleason : That fits into the concept that Liguori is proposing .
G . Totman : Nobody could argue with what you ' re saying , Joe , but
let me finish , with a proposal planner and 7 members
of the Planning Board it took 5 years to develop the
planning you are talking about and that ' s the plan
you ' re talking about right here and now we only have
a matter of 2 - 3 months to finish one segment of
zoning which is mobile homes , - - can ' t revamp all that
0n that time . _ 10 -
J . Laiacona : I ' m not saying we should but we should take into
consideration the land we are going to restrict and
I don ' t think we ' re doing that .
G . Totman : You can ' t do it that quick .
Some discussion followed by R . Gleason ,
J . Laiacona and others .
H . Fink : We ' re not going to solve anything tonight . Well ,
Roger had an idea that might be beneficial ree
overlaying these maps , - - could we get 2 or 3 to work
on something like that .
J . Laiacona : A graphic - - - - - - - - - - could overlay the maps in about
an hour .
H . Fink : I don ' t think you ' ll get a full picture from that .
R . Gleason : I ' m not saying it ' s a - - - - - - - proof system but it
does give you something to go on .
F . Wilson : I propose Area A right down the middle .
R . Gleason : I think you have a pretty good place .
G . Totman : You won ' t get the Town Board to go along with you .
R . Gleason : I ' d like to make a motion that the chairman appoint
a committee of 2 - 3 members to draft a proposal based
on the various suggestions tonight with a possible
alternate one and submit them at a future date , - -
maybe a month from now or lessx_
H . Fink : I think it would have to be our next meeting March
25th . There ' s a motion on the floor - -
G . Totman : The only trouble with what you ' re saying is we have
2 - 3 proposals already and can ' t get together on
them .
R. . Gleason : We take the proposals and try to draw some kind of
map with some ideas involved with them .
F . Wilson : I second the motion .
Roll Call was as follows :
C . Twigg - Yes ; F . Wilson - Yes ; G . Totman - No ; J . Laiacona - No ;
R . Gleason - Yes ; H . Fink - Yes .
H . Fink : Roger , I think the smaller the crew the better , - - it
might be I ' ll pick Roger and Fred to get together .
F . Wilson : It would be impossible for me to do .
H . Fink : 0 . K . Roger and Cecil .
- 11 -
' V
Co Twigg : No .
J . Laiacona : 0 . K . I ' ll get together with Roger .
G . Totman made the motion that the
meeting be adjourned which was
seconded by Roger Gleason and the
motion carried .
The meeting adjourned at 10 * 30 P . M .
Res ectfully submitted ,
VC��v
Jose hine Bell
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