HomeMy WebLinkAbout1976-02-12 ss--
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GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD PUBLIC HEARING
Held in the Town Hall , Groton ,
New York as February 12 , 1976
8 : 00 P . M .
PRESENT : H . Fink - Chairman* R . Gleason*
G . Totman K . Pierce*
F . Wilson* A . Clark - Ithaca Journal*
D . Payne*
C . Twigg* Members of the General Public :
J . Laiacona Dorothea Long*
Richard and Yolonda Mestler*
D . Snell - Zoning Enforcement Officer* Helen Stevens*
J . Bell - Recording Clerk* Mr . and Mrs . Douglas Fitzpatrick*
* - Denotes those present .
Mr . Fink read the Notice of Public Hearing for the Subdivision
of Roger Gleason aloud which was published in the Journal and
Courier on February 4 , 1976 . (A copy of which is filed in the
Town Clerk ' s Office ) .
H . Fink : Are there any questions on Mr . Gleason ' s subdivision ?
A . Clark : What are you doing , Roger ?
R . Gleason : I traded some land for that hunk of land .
A . Clark : And that constitutes a subdivision ?
R . Gleason : That ' s what I ' m told .
H . Fink : What about the statement regarding sanitation ?
R . Gleason : I never gave it a thought because its farmland .
H . Fink : There ' s no problem just have it put on there .
R . Gleason : I understand what you want .
H . Fink : Are there any questions ?
A . Clark : I still haven ' t figured it out .
F . Wilson : Mr . Clark would like to know what ' s going on .
Mr . Fink explained that the subdivision is required when sell
individual lots on a tract .
D . Payne : He sold one lot originally and this is a second lot .
A . Clark : 0 . K .
H . Fink : Seeing there are no further questions I will close this public hearing
- 1 -
H . Fink : at 10 after 8 P . M .
H . Fink : Roger , if you just get that notation on that map I will notify you
within 45 days of the Board ' s decision .
R . Gleason : Alright .
H . Fink : Mr . Pierce ' s subdivision is not until 8 * 30 P .M . so we ' ll wait for 20
minutes before holding it .
Mr . Fink read aloud the Notice of Public Hearing on Keith
and Alice Pierce ' s request for subdivision which was pub -
lished in the Journal and Courier on February 4 , 1976 . (A
copy of which is on file in the Groton Town Clerk ' s Office . )
H . Fink : Good evening , ladies and gentlemen , if you would like to speak would
you please give your name and Mrs . Bell is taking minutes and will
copy down what you have to say .
If there are any questions we have the map that Mr . Pierce has sub -
mitted to us if you would like to see it or ask any other questions .
R . Mestler : What is your definition of a subdivision ?
H . Fink : The Town Ordinance calls for one when you sell the second or more pieces
of land from one parcel , - - that ' s considered a subdivision . There doesn ' t
have to be a building or any kind of development , it ' s the sale of land .
R . Mestler : What other requirements besides the sale of land would you have to meet ?
H . Fink : Specifications he would have to meet , - -would be coming in front of us
with a survey of land he is proposing to sell , - - am I answering your
question?
R . Mestler : Sort of but if a building contractor wanted to buy a piece of land and
wanted to build houses on the land he has to go through the same
application , doesn ' t he ?
H . Fink : Yes , he would in this case say the buyer was going to develop x many
acres , if he was a developer he would have to come back in to us and
request a major subdivision which is 5 or more parcels of land being
subdivided so the developer would come in , - -Mr . Pierce in this case .
To clarify this , the land he is selling , - -I think Mr . Woernley is buying
a piece and Roger Gleason is buying the rest on that map . Would be glad
to show it to you if you like .
R . Mestler : We ' ve seen the small one but the definition of subdivision , - - you can ' t
tell if the contractor is looking at the land or a farmer is looking
at the land .
H . Fink : In this case , it ' s agricultural but if a developer is going to come in
and buy it he would have to lay out roads , recreation areas , depending
on how many homes he proposed to build , - -whether sewer is applicable and
then he would need Tompkins County Health Department approval .
R . Mestler : Well , this application we are here for tonight is just for agricultural
purposes ?
2 -
H . Fink : This is the intended purpose now but let ' s say Mr . Gleason , ten years
from now , would want to build homes , he could build one on there with
Health Department approval .
D . Snell : le could sell one lot .
H . Fink : He could sell one lot off of there .
D . Fitzgerald : Aren ' t they divided off into lots ?
H . Fink : In this case , no . What is the biggest piece that is being sold ?
R . Gleason : One is 13 . 557 acres and the other is 1 . 8 acres .
H . Fink : One is 13 . 557 and one 1 . 8 , - - that ' s how they are being subdivided now .
In this case Woernley is adding on to the lot he owns now . He ' s on
Lick Street ,
D . Payne : I adjoin Mr . Pierce ' s land .
D . Fitzgerald : Is that on the same side ?
K . Pierce : Yes ,
H . Fink : He lives in a mobile home , - -
K . Pierce : He ' s just adding right on .
D . Long : He ' s not in a mobile home , - -
K . Pierce : No , it ' s a little house .
D . Fitzpatrick : Is it true that Keith wants a right of way through Mrs . Mestler ' s
property or lot ?
Y . Mestler : He did want it but not now .
H . Fink : He has made provisions with Mr . Gleason and this is not our business .
It ' s a 30 ft . right of way .
R . Gleason : Right up here next to Bennetts .
H . Fink : Between Bennetts and Pierce ' s land which in the future will be Mr .
Gleason ' s but if someone was to build homes they would have to come in
with a subdivision layout , health department approval and New York
State Health Department approval and if there ' s a stream through there
they would need Environmental Department approval .
D . Fitzpatrick : What is really the purpose of us being here ?
H . Fink : Two things , - - the town ordinance is written this way and maybe in one
way it ' s absurd but it ' s the ordinance that was enforced back in 1969
and possibly there ' s some foresight in this , - -We might see something
the buyer or seller doesn ' t see . If everybody could sell everything
it would be nice but might hurt themselves by selling something on a
back lot that nobody could use as it would block off exits or something
like that . " Unfortunately there are not very many people who know
there is an ordinance in the Town of Groton and that the selling of 2
or more parcels of land requires a subdivision .
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D . Fitzpatrick : Why do they call it a subdivision for housing ? Why not for land ?
H . Fink : It didn ' t say housing , it just says subdivision .
D . Fitzpatrick : But actually division of subdivision is housing .
D . Payne : No subdivision can be strictly for land .
H . Fink : Actually it ' s the division of land .
D . Fitzpatrick : But it could be for housing ?
H . Fink : It could be .
D . Fitzpatrick : But in this case it is not .
D . Long : But if they want to build on it later they would be annexed to the
Village .
H . Fink : I hope not .
D . Long : So do I , - - that ' s why I moved out of the Village . None of those homes
on Elm Street were there when I moved up there . It was just wonderful
being out in the country but I haven ' t got any country any more .
H . Fink : The Village is sort of coming to you .
K . Pierce : Still and all you can still out - - - - - - - - - - they voted down from Mitch
Peter ' s and right up through , - -voted out of the Village and they were
very sorry about it afterwards which is none of my business but they
divided the Village right there , didn ' t they?
D . Fitzpatrick : Wasn ' t the Village sign , at one time , down towards the school , - - then
they built houses and moved the sign up ? What would stop the Village
from saying we are going to move this sign out to Lick Street ?
A . Clark : What happened is the private system failed up there by Metzgars so
they petitioned to come into the Village .
D . Long : They only went into the sewer system last year , - - it ' s been there a
long time .
K . Pierce : The other side belonged to the Village .
H . Fink : There has to be an agreement between the two boards , the Village and
Town Boards .
D . Payne : I think public hearings are required on that , too .
H . Fink : But still the word comes from the Town Board . Are there any further
questions ?
R . Mestler : A little more , - -Roger could build a structure and if he wanted to
it wouldn ' t have to be a house but something else ?
H . Fink : Right .
D . Long : No chicken houses up there , - - I can ' t stand the smell !
- 4 ON
H . Fink : I don ' t think he ' d do that up there but there ' s no law that says he
can ' t within reason if Mr . Snell says he can build . Any further
questions ?
I ' m glad you folks came tonight , - - it ' s nice to have you come out and
ask questions and learn something . We do have quite a few of these
hearings and most of them no one shows . My advice is to get out and see
how the Town Board operates too .
D . Long : I just read about it in the paper last Thursday and when I read that I got
scared .
H . Fink : It ' s good to come out and also don ' t, be afraid to attend Town Board meet-
ings , too .
D . Fitzpatrick : How often are they held?
H . Fink : On the first Monday of every month . We appreciate you coming and
I will now close this Public Hearing at 8 : 43 P .M .
Mr . Pierce we will notify you in writing . The law gives us 45 days
but we ' ll notify you long before that but we do have that limit . We ' re
short one member so can ' t take a vote at this moment and I hope he comes
later this evening so we can get on with these sometime tonight .
K . Pierce : Thank you .
H . Fink : Thank you again for coming and any time you want to come we meet the
second and fourth Thursdays of every month and would love to see
people .
(Mr . Twigg came in at 5 to 9 P .M . )
H . Fink : We can now vote on the two subdivisions .
R . Gleason : Do you want me to leave ?
H . Fink : No , you can stay .
F . Wilson : I make a motion that we accept the request for a subdivision for
Roger Gleason with the addition of the .ind}ation on the map for the
sanitation requirement .
D . Payne : I second the motion .
Roll Call was as follows :
F . Wilson as Aye C . Twigg - Aye - D . Payne an Aye H . Fink - Aye .
Motion carried unanimously .
H . Fink : 0 . K . , Roger .
R . Gleason ; I ' ll get back and get that put on .
H . Fink : I ; 11 entertain another motion on Mr . Pierce ' s subdivision .
D . Payne : I make the motion that we accept Mr . Pierce ' s request for a sub -
division with the addition of the notation on the map for the
sanitation requirement .
- 5 No
F . Wilson : I second the motion .
Roll Call was as follows :
F . Wilson - Aye C . Twigg - Aye D . Payne - Aye H . Fink - Aye .
Motion carried unanimously .
R . Gleason : I can get it put on but the problem I have is I didn ' t even think about
it on his . He has it on the lots in front .
D . Payne : That wasn ' t a subdivision at that time , Roger .
R . Gleason : He has to have some money by tomorrow so we can close thing up so if I
call Brady- and get over to your place .
H . Fink : Just see that it ' s on there .
F . Wilson : If he can do it , it might better be done .
R . Gleason : We ' re supposed to close it at 10 : 30 tomorrow .
H . Fink : Roger stated that tomorrow he will see the notations are on the bottom
of the maps .
H . Fink : I ' ll also notify Mr . Pierce . 0 . K . that ' s out of the way .
Is there anything else anyone would like to bring up ? We do have 2
members missing . Roger , are you going to New York?
R . Gleason : I can ' t go now .
H . Fink : Cecil , are you going to take his place ? Go down Monday and go home
Tuesday night ?
C . Twigg : I ' m afraid not .
R . Gleason : There ' s someone going down Monday and coming back Tuesday?
H . Fink : Arland Heffron said he might .
0 . K . We ' re supposed to do a little homework . Has anybody come up
with any proposals ?
F . Wilson : Before we get out of this 'q - -with reference to subdivisions , - -do we
have anything we hand out ?
H . Fink : Yes , we give them a copy of the subdivision regulations .
F . Wilson : Because we had this situation tonight where it really shouldn ' t have
existed - - the motation . If we give somebody a copy of this - -
H . Fink : I don ' t care how many copies you give out , they are going to forget
something . Roger helped write this .
F . Wilson : What if it was a guy that wasn ' t familiar with it ?
Some discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , F . Wilson ,
H . Fink and others .
- 6 -
H . Fink : I wrote to Frank Liguori , who is the County planner , and told him
about Bob Wright ' s subdivision on Old Stage Road and sent him a map
and he liked the idea of 200 ft . lot frontage on the lots and he
stated in his letter that he is trying to talk to the County Health
Department and make their lots 200 x 280 where there is no sewage
and they are hoping this is a long range plan some day that this will
come about . I think maybe that some time in the future we should give
consideration on some subdivisions such as this last major one which
was 150 , which we approved , but he did change it to 200 and I made
comments on that Foto the County planner which made him - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - --by enlarging lots 50 ft . was doing the County a favor .
R . Gleason : It all ties in with the selective community - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - that
Liguori has and his idea is if we are going to implement this program
have to have incentive and one for rural areas is for large lots and
smaller ones in areas where you have water and sewer . In the case of
Old Stage Road and Bob Wright , I talked to him and he mentioned the
letter . His thought , he voiced to me , was this that he liked the idea
of about an acre and a half lot 200 x 280 .
A . Clark : About 1k .
R . Gleason : The thought is where the subdivision makes large lots and separate it
out but if the subdivision is in an area where you have sewer , or
potential sewer , then they should have the option of having less than
30 , 000 sq . ft . - - the Town Planning Board should look to the option
if there is -an area where there is potential sewer and Stage Road
could be considered that .
H . Fink : 0 . K . , Roger , but that potential , if you read between the lines , is
hopefully a five- year period but realistically won ' t see them out
there in five years . That ' s a low intensity zone . In low intensity
zone in the Town of Groton the lot can be 20 , 000 sq . ft . with 100 ft .
frontage if it ' s in a low intensity zone , - - sewers or no sewers .
R . Gleason : I think it ' s only if it has sewers .
H . Fink : No .
Some discussion was held on this by A . Clark , R . Gleason ,
H . Fink and others .
Mr . Fink read aloud : "A single family home in low intensity
areas . . . . . . " {
More discussion followed by A . Clark , H . Fink , R .
Gleason and others .
H . Fink : Anything else you want to bring up ?
F . Wilson : I would suggest really in the future that we have the maps and any
changes we ask they put down so we can see it was done before we get
to a public hearing and open it up and find it isn ' t there .
H . Fink : Let me explain , - -we are not obligated to take a vote . All we do is
listen to the public and we have 45 days from the hearing to make
our decision and we tell him to straighten it out or will not get
our approval . Technically before the hearing we have to have 5
- 7 -
H . Fink : copies of the map , application and check and these should be turned
in before the hearing . When they come to our meeting either Roger
or his representative come also and it is discussed and if something
is left out or we forget something we have the hearing and then after
that make it right for our approval .
Some discussion was held on this by F . Wilson , D . Payne
and others .
R . Gleason : Back on this trailer business , - - the reason I brought up selective
community development and so on , - - one of the things that I got or
read , - - one of the gripes mobile home owners had was they were
selected out and treated to regulations over and above what a home
would have or a builder would have if putting a house on a lot and
what I was trying to come up with , or figure out , was if there was
some way that we could set up some plans in our regulations that
would essentially do what we want to do as far as trying to direct
development of certain type things in certain areas without coming
right out and specifically limiting this . There are several reasons
for this , - - one - mobile home owners and second it ' s a personal thing
if I , for instance , and I think some of the farmers might feel the
same way , - - if something happened and I got sick and had to hire a man
I might have need for this kind of housing and if the rule said I
couldn ' t put a mobile home in I ' d be up the creek . I feel there
should be some way it could be done .
H . Fink : How can you do that without being prejudiced ?
R . Gleason : As long as you were willing to put the thing on a foundation and
had a big enough lot he should be able to do it .
H . Fink : If you put it on foundation , - - a certain width one , - - it ' s not a mobile
home any more .
R . Gleason : Possibly , - -but the point is , I get up tight about having hard and
fixed rules either , you have to have some exceptions .
A . Clark : The answer there is , - -you can be sold a modular home , - - same thing ,
same price .
R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - -well , this still might , - -maybe that ' s the way you can solve
the problem . I ' m only just thinking out loud in a way .
H . Fink : Time is crawling by at a rapid pace and we have to have something to
turn in and if we don ' t do this right along our year will have gone
by and we won ' t have accomplished anything .
R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - - then maybe we should come up with one of these proposals , - -
I do think we maybe should have lot sizes in the rural areas to be
a little larger , - - this would , in effect , slow down some mobile home
development if it cost more . I think we should make an effort then
if we do come up with something to modify this then we should address
ourselves to this thought of selective community development and
start studying how to write an ordinance to accomplish this if it
is what we want . From an overall point of view it has some good features .
F . Wilson : Who ' s to know what will happen 20 years from now ?
- 8 -
A . Clark : What you ' re doing is saying this is the way it ' s going to go for the
next 20 years .
F . Wilson : Yes , but like he says , is this what you want ?
A . Clark : That ' s what you have to decide .
F . Wilson : Here ' s something that ' s interesting that I read .
(Mr . Wilson read aloud from a booklet on Taxation and Zoning
of Mobile Homes in New York . )
F . Wilson : This does bring back home what we have to do is protect the health ,
safety and morals , amenactually this is the only right we do have .
R . Gleason : Say we say you can only put mobile homes in suggested areas in West
Groton , or whatever , and we allow present lot size to remain . In
some areas because of Health Department will have to be bigger but
anyways we are going to concentrate to develop communities in those
areas .
C . Twigg : I think you ' re right .
R . Gleason : At least that ' s what it looks like to me so if we get too many of
them the next thing that will happen is sewer will be running all
over the place and this will cost somebody a mint of money . So to
just say you can put mobile homes in certain areas if we don ' t
write something else in .
F . Wilson : If you do some of the things that say to be careful about doing ,
- - it ' s discretionary , - - you ' re accomplishing one thing , - - cutting
down the number of new mobile homes .
R . Gleason : So this is why I was getting to the idea of smaller lots close to
the Village and the other thing that ties into it in your low in-
tensity can ' t put mobile home park , - -maybe we should write that .
A . Clark : That ' s where mobile home parks should be , really .
H . Fink : There are two schools of thought . on that . I think your low intensity
was designed for your main development and maybe the people before me ,
who developed this idea in this area , thought that homes would be in
this and why they excluded mobile home parks in that area .
A . Clark : That ' s one feature of this thing . When we were initially getting in-
volved in it , I never understood the reasoning of everybody else be -
cause to me if you are talking about high cost residential housing it
isn ' t going to be in your low intensity zone , it ' s going to be further
out and on larger lots . You ' re not going to get high value housing on
small lots . It isn ' t going to happen . It wasn ' t going to happen when
we wrote that thing but I couldn ' t , - -you know , - -I was alone in my
thoughts then .
F . Wilson : What do you call high price housing ?
A . Clark : $ 60 , 000 and up .
C . Twigg : You could come down lower than that .
- 9 -
`F . Wilson : What ' s Ben Sickles ' selling for?
R . Gleason : $42 , 000 .
A . Clark : If you go and look at it , that ' s still your - - - - - - - - - housing .
That ' s a smaller house .
F . Wilson : How many acres are you talking about for a mobile home park ? 18
acres minimum .
R . Gleason : If you look at the topography of land I ' m just making a suggestion
it still could be over in there and still be pretty much out of
sight and you ' re not too apt to have any other houses built down
in there .
C . Twigg : Where ' s this , Roger ?
R . Gleason : Where Dutch VanBenSchoten is putting one in . That could be extended
further in the future . They might want to expand it if it goes well .
A . Clark : The thing I think , - -when you start talking about mobile home parks , - -
I got half of what I wanted out of the Village on that one , - -was to
get a hold of the State Mobile Home Parks Association and find out
what minimum size it should be to be a viable business and make that
your minimum size mobile home park because when you get them and
they don ' t make money they go downhill and if the owner doesn ' t have
finances to put one in big enough to make a buck forget him , you don ' t
want him .
H . Fink : The only thing I ' m going to say about that is that ' s debatable , Arthur ,
a guy can have a big park and still go under . Those articles in the
Ithaca Journal that girl wrote about some big ones were in poor con-
dition financially .
A . Clark : Yes , but you ' ll find that some of them , - - I don ' t know why , - - -
Don Payne moved the meeting be adjourned and the
motion was seconded by F . Wilson , - -motion carried .
The meeting adjourned at 10 P .M .
Respectfully submitted ,
coaaw0c
Jos phine Bell
10 We