HomeMy WebLinkAbout04-22-1997 Hearing - Harrison Junk Yard PUBLIC HEARING & SPECIAL MEETING GROTON TOWN BOARD
Tuesday;22 April 1997
Town Hoard,Ids_ (*present) Others-Present
"Teresa Robinson,Supervisor Francis Casullo,Town Attorney
'George VanBenschoten Carol Marks,Deputy Town Clerk
•Ellard Sovocool Arland Heffron,Justice
*Dan Carey George Totman,Planning Bd. Chairman
*Donald Palmer Margaret Palmer, Court Clerk
Joan Fitch,Recording Secretary
George Senter,Code Enforcement Officer
Arthur"Dewey'Dawson,Town Constable
PW Ug Present
Abe Congdon, DeForest Hall, Morrison Smith, Ward & Sue Harrison, Todd lwigg, David
Christofferson,James Virgadamo
T.Robinson: We're going to have the hearing.
Supervisor Robinson reads the Public Notice as pitilshed:
Please take notice that a public hearing will beheld at the Town Hall, 101 Conger
Boulevard Groton, New York, by the Town Board of the Town of Groton on Tuesday,
April 22, 1997, at 7:00 p.m, ton consider the application for a Junk Yard License
submitted by Ward Harrison to be located at 575 West Groton Road
All persons interested shalt be heard
Dateck April 9, 1997 Colleen D. Pierson
Town Clerk
T.Robinson: Now, first of all, there are going to be some rules. One of them is that we stand
and give your name and then continue. I declare the hearing open. Anybody have anything to say?
Anybody at all have anything to say?
M.Palmer: Can we have a presentation of what is being proposed?
T.Robinson: Pardon?
M.Palmer: Can we have a presentation of what is being proposed?
T.Robinson: I just told you.
M.Palmer. Okay. [
T.Robinson: Yes. ;r
D.Christofferson: I'm David Christofferson and I live up in the neighborhood, and I have for all of
my life,but I feel we live in an area where everybody has a car and sooner or later they are going to be
junk. And If the guy will take them off our hands,I see no problem in having him do it. He's trying to
make a living like everybody else.
T.Robinson: Thank you. Anybody else? There's no objection? Any more in favor,please?
A.Congdon: I'm Abe Congdon and I live next to it We've had pollution there before, quite
awhile ago and I've got quite a few questions to ask. What do you consider Junk? How far away from `
the stream of water that goes through it are they going to park these junk cars, and who's going to
oversee it to see that only junk cars go in there and not any other stuff?
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PnMio Hearing&special Meatiu;-Groton Town Bogard ' April22,I 9
W.Harrison: I'm Ward Harrison. George has asked me on that, and everything has to be -
evacuated. No fluids are going to be in the cars. It's about 6D feet to the creek.The DEC is involved in
everything I'm doing,so it's a pretty safe bet that we're not going to have any pollution around there.
The DEC won't allow it. So that's about what I got to say about it. I don't know what he means by any
other stuff. What are you talking about?
A.Congdon: Well,I'm talking about--they could bring asbestos--
W.Harrison: No,no,no--
A.Congdon: Are you connected with Ithaca Junk yet?
W.Harrison: We deal with metal. That's it. I don't take any asbestos or nothing like that. No
a scrap paper. No cardboard. Nothing. Just scrap iron and cars.
A.Congdon: Yeah. Another thing,you said 60 feet from the stream. Our well is less than that
from the stream. And, also, I talked with an environmentalist this afternoon and he said if they're
going to put junk cars in,they should be at least 200 feet from the stream. He couldn't get here tonight
because he had a big meeting in Syracuse.
W.Harrison: That's where we stand.
T.Robinson: Okay. Thank you. Anybody else?
D.Hall: Well,I'm DeForest Hall and I'm on the opposite side of town so it probably won't
make any difference what I say. I'm wondering why the gentlemen isn't having it to his place where
he's already at instead of over to somebody else's territory?
W.Harrison: I've got one there,too.
D.HaM It would be nicer if you kept it all in one spot.
W.Harrison: It's landlocked. And the building's there. And it's already fenced. And I can't
buy any more land from Jim Decker.
T.Robinson: Do I understand this right--all of this land--you're buying the whole property?
W.Harrison: No.just part of it--four acres.
T.Robinson: You're not buying the house?
W.Harrison: No.
D.Carey: How many acres are you buying?
W.Harrison: About three acres.
D.Carey: How many acres does Twigg own? a
W.Harrison: I think it's a 36-acre parcel.
T.Robinson: Are there any more questions or remarks?
A.Congdow. He's telling there's only three acres that they'll be able to park cars on. If they use
that space,they're going to need all of that and they wont be parking 60 feet from the stream,they'll be
parking on the stream.
L' T.Robinson: Well,I believe he's going to be moving these in and out.
A.Congdon: Well,maybe they are. j
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PabW Hearing&Special Meeting Greton Town Soard April 22,1997
T.Robinson: I'm just assuming that is that right?
W.Harrison: That's right.
T.Tula Well I'm Todd Twigg. I own the property now. The parcel I propose to sell to Ward
is 250 feet from the center of the road,which is about the back boundary will be about 60 feet from
the creek. And as far as parking cars,you can't get anywheres near that at this point. There's trees
there. It will probably be a good hundred feet from the creek anyways.
D.Carey: Who will own the creek?
T.Tww I will.
D.Carey: You will own the creek?
T.TWIW
Yes. t(l
G.Van Benschoten: What is the process of—you've mentioned draining. Would you enlighten us on
that? Is there a time period there? is the oil drained before they're moved?
W.Harrison: When they come in the yard,thats the first thing we do is evacuate --engine oil,
transmission oil, antifreeze, brake fluid, washer solvent - that's all done at my facility on Cobb
Street. Then well move them up there basically for dismantling the parts off of. But they will all be
evacuated before they go there. Your ordinance says I've got to keep a log of all that. I've got the log up
to date. George checks it every year. The State says we got to run a clean operation; and that's what
we're doing.
A.Congdon: How many vehicles do you figure you can park in there at one time?
D.Hall: That's just what I was going to ask--how many?
W.Harrison: Who knows what my business is going to do in the next year.
A.Congdon: What are you going to do with all this oil,the batteries,and all this other stufPl
W.Harrlsoa: It all gets recycled.
A.Congdon: Where?
W.Harrison: I can have Hazelton Oil come and get it-any licensed DEC remover comes and
gets it. There won't be any fluids up there.
A.Congdon: You mean up on the'ltvigg property?
W.Harrison: Correct.
A.Congdon: It will be all clean and all W.Harrison: It's all done at my place.
A.Congdon: done at your place on Cobb Street.
D.Hall: Now you'll be buying not only local cars,but you'll be buying from junkyards?
W.Harrison: It's possible, but not probable. This is pretty much an off-the-street business.
People will be bringing them to me, or I'll be picking them up. I'm not going to go in and buy a whole
salvage yard.
D.Hall: With three acres you really haven't got much room to start to do that.
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Publics Hearing&Special Meeting•Groton Town Board April 22,1997
�- W.Harrison: Well,we moved in a press today so we can press them and keep them contained. i
D.Hall: How long will that be there?
W.Harrison: The press?
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D.Halb, The press.
W.Harrison: 1 bought that yesterday morning,so Its going to be onsite all the time.
T.Robinson: Any other questions?
A.Congdon: How late a night or how long a day are you going to be operating that press?
W.Harrison: I like to get done at 5 o'clock.
A.Congdon: I know. But I've had others that are not very far from there making big noise <
until late at night.
W.Harrison: Well, you won't hear that press operate because it will never be up there. The
press is going to stay stationary at the Cobb Street location.
D.Hall:- You're saying once you dismantle them then you'll take them back to Cobb
Street?
W.Harrison: They will go back and we'll press them on Cobb Street.
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T.Robinson: Any other questions or statements? Okay,I declare the hearing closed.
A.Congdon: I'd like to ask one more question,Teresa, When will this gel—and know for sure
when it's going into effect?
T.Robinson: They have to have a permit and -I don't know. You'll have to ask George.
George,when will this go into effect if it was passed? {{{
G.Seater: You mean is there any waiting period on this?
T.Robinson: Yes. There's none is there?
G.Seater:. No.
T.Robinson: No. 1 didn't think.so. Does that answer your question?
F.Castillo: Teresa, before you close the public hearing, do you have the SEAR file up there?
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We've got to go through that. I'll do it and have you guys answer the questions.
T.Robinson: Have them answer them?
I,
i F.Casullo: Yes.
1,
T.Robinson: Yes.
I F.Casullo: Before you close the hearing, we should let the public know what you're going to
do — the SEQR - State Environmental Quality Review form - you're going to do a short-form
Environmental Assessment Form.-Mr.Harrison has completed some parts of it and the Town needs to
complete the rest. The applicant sponsor was Ward Harrison. The project name they put in was
Country Auto Sales. The project location was in the Town of Groton,County of Tompkins. The precise
location is 575 West Groton Road in the Town of Groton. The proposed action is checked
{ modification/alteration. That's okay. Thais fine. Describe the project briefly — to store and
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Publics Hearing&Special Meeting-Groton Town Board: April 22,IM
dismantle motor vehicles. The amount of land affected initially will be five acres I'm assuming it's
going to be ultimately five acres as well. Will the proposed action comply with existing zoning or
other existing land use restrictions--Its boxed yes. What is the present land use in the vicinity of the
project — its boxed agriculture. Does the action involve a permit approval or funding now or
ultimately from any other government agency,Federal.State, or local? Its marked no,but actually I
think it should be marked yes because it's going to need a junkyard license/approval from the Town.
So that should be corrected. Do you see what I'm saying?
W.Harrison: Sure.
F.Casullo: Okay. Does any aspect of the action have a permanently valid permit of
approval? It does, it's marked yes. As a result of proposed action, will existing permit approval
require modification? It's marked no,but that should probably be marked yes because he's going to be
--if approved--he's going to be getting a new junkyard license. Okay. So I'll just make little checks
around 10 and 12 and well handle that later. Then it's signed Country Auto Sales by Ward Harrison
and it's dated March 26, 1997. This is the part that the Town Board needs to listen to:
Town Attorney Castillo then reads aloud Parts I and 11 of the Short Environmental Assessment
Form Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part H.
F.Casullo; What I'll do Teresa is tomorrow I'll come up and fill out the rest. Mr. Harrison, If
you can,afterwards,If it's approved,will you stop up here so we can make a couple changes on those
boxes?
W.Harrison: Yes.
F.Casullo: At this paint,do you want to close the public hearing? f
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T.Robinson: Well,I prematurely closed it.
F.Casullo:- If there's any questions,they certainly can ask them now.
T.Robinson: Do you have any questions now?
A.Congdon: Yes. He mentioned five acres,and they mention three acres. Now which is it?
W.Harrison: Well, since we submitted that form, we decided to move 150 feet back so we can
take the fence and run it down there--that's why the change in the acreage.
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A.Congdon: So it's five acres then instead of three?
W.Harrison: No, it's three acres instead of five. Because we took a couple acres to move the
fence so,there will be a 150-foot strip between Bud and the yard.
T.Twigg: This will give Bud McFall a buffer zone.
T.Robinson: My understanding is, then, that you're moving the fence so it will be there
between you two besides the area of 150 feet.
W.Harrison: The fence is going to be there. And there's going to be 150-foot section from Bud's
line to my fence.
T.Robinson: Okay. Any other questions? Speak now.
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D.Hall: He'd have to get another hearing if he expanded,right?
D.Palmer: Yes.
D.Hall: He couldn't just expand between Mr.Twigg and Mr.Harrison.
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D.Palmer. That's right.
`J J.Fitch. You need a motion to declare a negative dec.
F.C.asnno: I understand that. What want to do is have people make all their comments,
close the public hearing,then,after everyone's made their comments,because I don't want--I want all
the comments to happen first--then once all the comments have been made,I'd like to close the public
hearing. Then the Town will have all the information where they can make their motion on a
negative declaration. I'd rather keep the public hearing to get the people after we went through this to
have an opportunity to make some comments before we close the hearing, and before I have the Board
make a resolution to make a negative declaration. I'm well aware of it.
T.Robinson: Any more comments? Yes.
D.Hall: You keep answering no to this environmental issue. How do you know there isn't
going to be an environmental situation?
W.Harrison: I've got to submit to DEC about what I'm doing, how I'm doing, so they're
controlling me every minute. You really don't have anything to worry about. They're involved in my
business more than anyone else in the world.
A.Congdon: Well,I don't know about that. I ve been three days,and this afternoon about 2:30
1 got ahold of one of the environmentalists for the first time. I've been three days on the phone trying
to call somebody to find out about this.
T.Robinson: He's probably been out working.
D.Hall: Do you have inspections as well as from George--is that what you're saying?
j W.Harrison: The DEC Just comes to-inspect--they pop in anytime. They can run me off, they
can do anything they want. And George inspects me once a year- he stops up to see me,too.
T.Robinson: Any more comments? If not, I'll close the hearing. This is final. (The time is
7:30 p.m.)
F.Casullo: Now, based upon the information presented and the information that you
answered--the Short-Form Envirorunental Assessment Form —you need to make a motion to the
best of your knowledge,based on the information presented,that if you award Mr.Harrison a permit it
will not have a negative impact on the environment.
D.Palmer: I move that we declare a negative declaration environmental assessment on this.
E.SOVOcooi: I second that motion. a
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T.Robinson: All those in favor? (All Town Board members indicated they were in favor.)
Okay. Now do we have the right to state what we want in this?
F.Casullo: At this point you should have a discussion as to how(1)whether or not you want
to grant a license,if at all.
T.Robinson: We'll have discussion.
E.Sovocooh I see no problem and the only complaint we had was from Bud on the fence line
and they're going to take care of that.
T.Robinson: I think that should be stated in the permit though that it's there. ( j
E.Sovoeoob And there's no oil or anything in the cars when they come there so it's not going
to hurt the creek any.
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public Hearing 8c Special Meeting-Groton Town Board: Agri!22,39si1
T.Robinson: George?
G.Seater; You might want to maybe discuss the hours of operation with Ward.
T.Robinson: Ward?
W.Harrison: I close at 5 o'clock.
F
Z.Sovoeool: What time do you start?
W.Harrison: Eight o'clock.
G.Seater. So you might want to include that.
A.Congdon. How are you going to put that in there?
T.Robinson: What do you mean,how are we going to put that In there?
A.won: How are you going to put the time element in there?
T.Robinson; 'That's what.we are just talking about. Eight to five?
E.Sovoc:oob Monday thru Saturday?
W.Harrison: Yes.
T.Robinson.,: And there will be fencing between you and the McFall property, and a footage
barrier--open space.
W.Harrison: Yes,there will be 150 feet between Bud's and my yard.
T.Robinson: Now whatkind of a fence are you going to put it?
W,Harrison: The fence that's existing there—we're going to take 150 feet for the buffer zone
and run it north and south. It will be the same fence,only we're just going to bend it around.
T.Rabinson: So it will go back 150 feet,approximately?
W.Harrison: Approximately. Bud will not be able to see it from his house. He possibly could
walk in back of his property and look in there,but his living quarters will not be able to see the area.
T.Robinson: Anybody got any questions on that? On the fence-
D.Palmer. I would move that we move forward on the application for the junkyard in
standard compliance with the license regulations already in place.
F.Casuilo: Just one thing --Just a housekeeping thing —its no big deal. If you look at his
application,it mentions that the applicant/sponsor is Country Auto Sales. I think you would want to
give a junkyard license to Ward Harrison. if you're not a d/b/a. I'd rather that you give it to Ward
Harrison because if there's some confusion,I'd rather do it that way.
T.Robinson: Is that okay with you,Ward?
S.Harrison: No. It should be as a d/b/a.
T.Robinson: As a d/b/a?
F.Casullo; I don't care if you use Ward Harrison,d/b/a-- that's fine. But it can't be Country
Auto Sales. if you want to do Ward Harrison,d/b/a Country Auto Sales,that's absolutely fine.
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PubUe Hearing&Special Meeting.Groton Town Board April 22,lli
T.Robinson: As long as it's all in--no problem. Ready to go? I'll have a motion.
D.Palmer: I made the motion.
G.van Benselwten: I'll second Don's motion.
T.Robinson: All those in favor? (All Town Board members indicated they were in favor.)
M&portion of the meeting ended at 7:37 p.ma
T.Robinson: We are now going to be taking action on the establishment of fees to be paid by
the Town to the Town Constable for his/her services. Is there any comment from the audience at this
time? Yes?
D.Halk It was my understanding that you already established a Town Constable. You
must have a fee already set--
T.Robinson: No we didn't. No.we didn't have a fee set.
. D.Haile You didn't have a fee set? You have a Town Constable?
T.Robinson: Yes,we have had a Town Constable.
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D.Halk But you haven't paid him? Why would you have to establish a fee?
T.Robinson: We have a new Town Constable. Things change over the years, and last year I
don't think we even used one. All right,not let's have any talk inside. Is there some other discussion?
A.Dawson: Do you have anything that you want to propose?
�.
T.Robinson: Yes,1 do. But lwant to hear what anybody in the audience has to say.
J.Fitch: What's your name?
A.Dawson: I'm sorry. I'm Arthur Dawson and I'm the Town Constable,
J.Fitch: Thank you.
A.Dawson: I saw the thing in the paper about the meeting tonight,or else I probably wouldn't
have been here.
T.Robinson: Good. Anybody else?
D,gall: How often does this take place--what's his tour of duty--two years?four years?
T.Robinson: No. We appoint one every year.
D.Hall, Every year?
T.Robinson: Yes. And he's only used when called upon.
D.Hail: Called upon to do what?
T.Robinson: To deliver summonses,or,as I understand it now from the Judge, people have to
have somebody sit in court when they have trials.
E.sovoc;ook And any lay person could do this. It doesn't necessarily have to be a peace officer.
Anybody could be a constable.
T.Robinson: They have to be 18.
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Puiilio Hearing&Special Meeting•Groton Town Board April 2%IM
D.Halk He's saying the general public--he doesn't have to have a degree.
A.Dawson: It would seem that you would want somebody to,but technically you don't have
to.
T.Robinson: What it is is to keep the jury from talking about the case, and escorting them to
the rooms,and keep order. I called down to the County and found out that the only township that has a
fee was Lansing and their's was$15 an hour. I think that's pretty steep, myself. When we've had an
occasion here to use the deputies--twice now--I don't know what the one yesterday was,but—was it a
Town one or a Village one?
M.Palmer; Village, yesterday.
T.Robinson: The Village uses the police officer that's there,I believe,on duty,whatever. They
have submitted a$15 an hour fee each time and it's more than we had put into our budget because we
weren't informed that this was going to be happening. It was not put in the budget, so it's something to
consider. And $15 an hour is more money than most of us in there work and get anyway. So, for
sitting around something like stx hours.I don't think it's necessary.
s —Teresa's absolutely right -- there's
The town constable in all the townships ^
A.Dawson: p
only one that has an established fee for the constable,and that's the Town of Lansing. And it's$15 an
hour for--but they have budgeted$15,O00 a year for their constables over there because they do a lot
more. They patrol parks and stuff like that from Memorial Day through Labor Day. They have five
constables, and each constable works ten hours a week during the summer patrolling the parks and
stuff like that. Obviously,we're not looking at that for the Town of Groton. What we're looking at is
coverage that's needed that heretofore was handled a in different way that's not going to happen
anymore and that's by way of the Village is not going to pick up the cost of the Town trials. But they
will for Village trials. The other thing is, the Town of Dryden has court officers that are not town
constables, but their court officers. And the court officers in Dryden get$20 an hour to set in their
court and do nothing--as Teresa like's to think that it is. The--
T.Robinson: I don t need that. I don't think that was called for.
A.Dawson: Okay. And,as a matter of fact,when we get to talking about the fee structure and !
stuff like that I have a presentation that I would like to present, and I have copies to give the Board
members if this might be an appropriate time to do it.
k
T.Robinson: I think it is. For somebody who wasn't prepared--
(Mr.Dawson hands out a"Proposed free Schedule,"dated 22 April 1997,
a copy e[which Is appended to these minutes for record purposes.)
A.Dawson: You were supposed to get ahold of me and find out what I was going to propose and
you never did. Am I right in assuming that you never contacted me about the meeting?
T.Robinson: No. You're right.
A.Dawson: As you can see by this proposal, there's more than just the hourly rate situation
involved. There's serving of papers for the court. Things such as criminal summonses and other types
of civil process,rather than an hourly rate. It's a service-per-paper rate which shows$15 plus 28¢per
mile. And that's one trip up and back to wherever it has to be served. Like,if I have to take ten trips to
go to the end of Sovocool Hill Road to find somebody and give them a paper,and I don't get them until
later, the mileage can only be for one round trip --it can't be for every time that I go up. This is In
accordance with the CPLR and the same kind of rules that are governing sheriffs departments for
serving papers. The other three items that are there are service of bench and arrest warrants.
Presently,I have three bench warrants;I've already served one. So I've already had four warrants and
some civil papers to do since taking office last month. Certainly, if this thing'continues, I can see me
being required to give a report to the Town Board every month as well as any other department. And
I'd have no problem with that. But if I'm going to have to go up and arrest a person, take an arrest
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Pul lin Hearing&Special Meeting-G.W.Town Board April22,im
record,secure some bail money,that will ultimately be used for fine money or whatever, I have a price
of$20 per warrant on that. if there's a bench warrant where I have to take a person into actual
physical custody and bring him before the judge, and the judge releases him here, there's a$25 fee
because it's a hands-on situation. And if 1 have to take the person to jail because they don't pay their
fine, and the judge puts them in jail, that:s a little bit more. That's $30. Now these things are
reasonable. According to the laws of the State of New York, the sheriffs department can charge for
processing prisoners that come into the facility, and things like that. All this is is a processing fee,
pretty much,for these people. Its not like a bounty or anything like that; I don't control how many
people have warrants and things like that. Presently,the warrants that f have from the judges are for
violation of the Dog Ordinance --unleashed dogs, unidentified dogs -- and these are all people that
have failed to pay their fine after having been duly notified.
T.Robinson., Is there some other manner of notifying these people?
A.Dawson: I understand that before a warrant is issued, they're sent letters and everything
else. And sometimes I've tried to call a couple people that I've had the warrants and the papers for and
either you can't find the phone number or they're transient and you have to hunt them down. It's a
{ situation that somebody's going to have to be doing this,and the police agencies don't have time, quite
1 frankly,to handle the minor dog warrants and stuff like that for the townships. They won't do it.
E.l9ov0e00l: Why not--that's what they're hired for.
M.Palmer: Not on Town ordinances.
E.Sov0000i. why? The Town Ordinance covers the Village,too,as far as dogs go.
M.Palmer: The Village PD doesn't have jurisdiction out in the Town.
E.Sov0000l: That's right.
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M.Palmer: The Sheriffs Department or State Police won't handle bench warrants or civil
summonses for Town ordinances.
E.6ovoeook The Sheriffs Department out to.
M.Palmer: Not for Town ordinances.
E.Savocook Why not?
M.Palmer: They won't handle it.
A.Dawson: They're understaffed. >
M.Palmer: They won't do Town ordinances. That's why you have a Town Constable -- to f
handle Town ordinances. R
E.Sovocoob I think they ought to. Hadn't they.George?
G.Totman: Get them out of the coffee shop.
M.Palmer: On what's done before warrants are issued--when somebody comes in --whether
Ws by mail or in person and are issued a fine,if they don't pay the fine within the time period they are
given,a letter goes out to remind them to pay the fine. We usually give them about three weeks. If they
haven't paid it then, a second letter goes out stating that if they don't pay the fine, then a bench
warrant will be issued. So they are given three notices before a bench warrant is issued And on
criminal summonses--that's when they don't answer the information the SPCA files with the court--
if they don't come the day the SPCA tells them to,we write them a letter and give them another date. I f
j they don't come on that new date,we mail them a criminal summons. If they don't come on that date,
## we have the summons served in person. And that seems that brings them in when they have a person
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c Pullilc Hearing&Special Meeting-Groton Town Board April 22,1907
serve that criminal summons. So there is steps taken before the final criminal summons and
warrants are served by the Town Constable.
D.Halk What you're saying, Margaret, is the SPCA can only issue the first ticket, and
then the Constable or officer has to do the bench warrants.
A.Dawson: They can't do warrants. They can't arrest anyone.
A.Heffron: When it comes to sending a Town Constable after a dog violation--when a person
comes in and pays the fine, the fine is quite generally a little more than the minimum. And that
money comes back to the Town. You spend$25 for a Town Constable, and the fine is$25,you haven't
lost anything. Because that money comes back to the Town 100%.
E.Sovoeool: But that money can only be spent on dogs, right? The money coming back into
1 the Town can't go into the General Fluid. It goes into the dog control.
A.Dawson: Any warrants that are issued are usually for dog ordinances. So that would go to
the dogs.
E.sovoccook We wouldn't pay the constable out of the dog fund.
A.Heff' m: You shouldn't pay them out of the court budget either,There should be a separate
budget for the Town Constable.
T.Robinson: We do- a very minimal amount.
E.sovocook We've never had one that's what we're--
T.Robinson: We have one. We do have one,but its a very minimal amount of$100.
A.Hef 0n: It really doesn't make any difference to the court how much you pay a Town
Constable--its whatever you decide upon. It is necessary,on occasion,that we have the services of the
Town Constable. Whatever agreement you make with the Town Constable as far as the fees are
concerned is entirely none of the courCs business. And the court is not going to get involved in it But
there are times when the court must have the services of a court officer, whether you call him a Town
Constable,or a Tom,Dick,or Joe. If we have a trial, somebody wants to became court officer to guard
the,jury. That's not the Town of Groton courts idea, that's the law. And how much you pay him, I
could care less. Or even if you don't pay him. In the past,the Village has picked up the tab on it and
they will no longer do it. We had a trial here yesterday that lasted.for over ten hours. It was a Village
trial and it didn't cost the Town anything. Two weeks ago,we had a Town case, a Town trial. And we
had a court officer,and the Town is responsible to pay that officer whatever you agree to pay him.
A.Dawson: There is an alternative,too. You could,because you're a municipality, you could
contract with the Sheriffs Department to cover the trials with an officer. But I think the going rate for
that is like$35 an hour,because they charge for a car and fringes and time and a half for the highest
employee.
T.Robinson: Any more questions? Answers?
D.Palmer: I have a question for the Constable. Is it necessary to be licensed to carry a
sidearm in order to hold that position?
A.Dawson: You have to have a pistol permit in order to carry a sidearm, and while Mr.
Sovocoors right regarding anybody can be a Town Constable, I would certainly think that the Town
Attorney might want to look into the situation of having minimum requirements eventually drawn
up and placed on fate for the Town Constable which would include peace officer or police officer
training so as to keep people out of a bind when it comes to certain things like who can affect arrests
and what you have to do and things like that. Is that a reasonable suggestion,sir?
11
Public Hearing&Special Meeting-Groton Town Board April 4 ..
F.Cesultot Yes, it's reasonable. But my instructions, unfortunately, come from the Town
Board. If they want to make that decision,that's up to them. I do what they tell me to do.
E.SoVo0001: 1 can't see us sending anybody out after a dangerous person. I mean, I can't see
why we'd be doing it. Somebody that hasn't paid a dog license fee or bought a dog license,that's M.Palmer. Have you ever talked to them on the phone?
E.$ovocooi: Yes,I can be that way myself.
D.Carey: George,George Totman,would you know what the other towns here--Lansing has
a set fee;what's the Town of Newfield or some of the other townships?
G.Totman: I think Dryden has a$20 fee,and I know Lansing's is$15.
D.Carey: You don't know about the other towns in the County?
G.Totman: No,I could have checked.but I didn't.
A.Dawson: I think most of them just let them the in the dead letter file and just never collect
the fines. They don't enforce the laws and stuff like that.
F.Casulto: I'd like to just ask you a question. Does Lansing contract with the Sheriffs
Department or use a constable?
G.Totman: They use a constable.
F.Casullo: I mean to serve arrest and bench warrants and everything? t
G.Totman: As far as I know,yes. You asked about Newfield and Enfield and they don't even
have Town ordinances. They are just beginning to get into that. There's no zoning in Caroline.
A.Dawson: Actually,what the Town Constable does is you're getting a police officer at a lot
less rate that you would pay a police officer,in the long run.
D.Carey: Why can't the Sheriffs Department--
T.Robinson: He said they can,but they've got to pay them.
D.Carer. You have to go out and get somebody because that's not part of the Sheriffs
Department's duties? '
A.Dawson: Not those things —not for the local ordinances like that, unless they were the
arresting agency or something. And they are very seldom the arresting agency on an ag and markets
situation.
G.Totman: I'm not for or con this thing, but we used to, for McLean Firemen's Field Days,
hire off-duty deputies and pay them whatever we could agree on. And since about seven or eight years
ago,we were required to hire them through the Sheriffs Department as a contract, and then we had to
pay them the prevailing rate which is,I think now,about$40 an hour and we have to hire two of them.
We can't hire just one. When our carnival's on, it's $40'an_hour for each deputy. The Sheriffs
Department can't even let them work on their own time anymore,for us. I think it's crazy.
T.Twim Does anybody have a budget figure as to what this constable's going to cost over
the period of a year? An estimation?
T.Robinson: We might have used one three or four times this year, and then we might never
have them again. And like we haven't had anybody in the last-wimple years. We budgeted for$100, and
�,..i
they weren't getting$15 an hour either.
i
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Public Hearing&Special Meeting-Groton Town Board April 22,1997
A.Heffron: That's because the Village has been paying them for the most part.
T.Robinson: Well,they were paying them because they were officers on--
M.Palmer. We were getting a Village officer for our Town trials when we've had them in the
last few years. The Village was paying them.
F.Casullo: What were they paying them?
M.Palmer. Their salary. II
T.Robinson: You mean what they got every day?
M.Palmer: What their regular salary rate was,
E,sovocook So instead of patrolling the road they were setting in the courthouse.
M.Palmer: No,there was someone patrolling the road,too. It was an off-duty police officer.
T.Robinson: How come they didn't bill us? How come we didn't know this was occurring?
M.Palmer: Because the Police Department said that they would provide it. He said that
instead of billing the Town they would do it in the police budget. So they did it through the police
budget.
T.Robinson: But they never told us.
M.Palmer. They didn't need to tell you.
T.Robinson: No,I know they didn't. But,I mean,all of a sudden--
M.Palmer: Now the Village police officer cannot be valid in the Town court in the Town
trials.
T.Robinson: It would have been nice if we'd known this.
M.Palmer: We didn't know until we needed a bailiff.
A.Heffron: Just within the last three or four weeks was when we found out about it, that the
Village could no longer pick up the tab.
M.Palmer, See,last year we didn't have any Town trials--,lust Village trials. This year,as of
May 1st we'll have two Village trials and two Town trials. That's four and its only May 1st.
F.Casullo: Were they helping you out too,Peggy,as far as serving things? t
M.Palmer: They would serve Town papers too. But then the Police Department had a
problem and they were sued. That's when the Village Board and the Police Commissioners said no
more service--jurisdiction is not in the Town.
T.TWIW What does the Village pay?
A.Dawson: I think its around $10.25 an hour or something like that. And if they're
providing an officer for the court,they're providing two officers so you'd have to double that.
A.Heffron: The Town has the right, as far as I know and you may correct me on this, the
Town has the right to set a fee that you're willing to pay. If you can't find one constable who will work
for that amount of money,you can look for another. t
T.Robinson: That was my understanding.
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Public Hearing&Special Meeting-Groton Town Board, i' s
F.casullo: There's a section in the Town Laws perhaps Section 20,that authorizes the Town
Board to set toe compensation for the Town Constable.
T.Robinson: Okay. Arty more questions or whatever? The amount that was mentioned was
$7.50. Do I have any comment?
M.Palmer: As an hourly rate?
T.Robinson: Yes.
M.Palmer. How about the service of papers?
T.Robinson: We hadn't--I guess that was the price,the going price. For the service of papers--
it's with mileage and everything,right? I'm talking about sitting for$7.50. And I'm talking about the ,
other plus mileage always.
E.Sovocook What's our mileage rate,28 cents?
k T.Robinson: I believe it is.
G.Totman: I'd like to ask a question. Has the Board talked to anybody to see, other than Mr.
Dawson,as to what they could get somebody to work for?
T.Robinson: What they could get somebody to work for?
G.Totman: Does the Board have anybody in mind they could hire for less than, say, $15 an
hour?
�- T.Robinson: We weren't looking for people,we were looking for price.
G.Totman: You can set a$5 an hour rate, but you can't get anybody to work for$5 an hour.
That's very conservative. We pay our cemetery help more than that.
M.Palmer. I know that the Town of Locke has used a Town Constable for serving papers and
such;I don't know what their fee is,but they pay a Town Constable.
W.Harrison: You don't have any idea what the Village has paid for this person to sit?
T.Robinson: They pay them$10----
W.Harrison: It's a catch-22--somebody s going to have to do it and somebody's going to have r
to pay.
S.Harrison: I think you guys are overlooking the responsibility of this person,whether it be
Dewey or somebody else, Anything could happen at any given moment. What if somebody goes
berserk while this person is serving papers at their home? He's still taking on a responsibility just
like a normal police officer.
W.Harrison: What is your liability sending an 18-year old out there and paying him $5 an
hour to arrest someone.
S.Harrison: As long as he has a gun permit,that's okay?
T.Robinson, I don't believe he has a gun permit. We aren't sending people out like that.
A.He>Yrorit I might add that the court has the right to request a court officer be present every
time eourt`s in session.
14 ##�
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Pu>Alic+Hearing&c Special Meeting.Groton Town Board April 22,1997
.w F.Castillo: Let me just say that its my understanding that at least the initial concern, and
you can correct me if I'm wrong,but the concern initially was making sure we had a constable to be in
the courtroom during the Town's trials or proceedings, or whatever. That's what we talked about. I
think that issue needs to get resolved as soon as possible, because very understandably, you should
have somebody in there at a Town trial. There's no question about that. I think the issues that can
stay on the back burner, if you want to do a little bit more background, about having your Town
Constable serve the various papers and what you want to pay for those services. I'm not saying its a
bad idea, but it seems to me that the last time we met to set up this Special Meeting, that wasn't the
Issue. We weren't talking about serving papers. We were very concerned about making sure we had
someone present in court and trial. You can correct me if I'm wrong. but that's my thought on the
genesis of this whole thing with the Town Constable.
D.Palmer: My recall was that we needed to have someone fill the Town Constable position.
I'm not sure we got into a lot of discussion of what that involved,because I don't think we knew at that
time. But I think there is now, as I understand it, there's now a County job description that fits the
Town Constable position--
T.Robinson: There always has been.
D.Palmer: Okay. That was not available when we spoke before. If that's available, and I r
think were now seeing also from this presentation, that there's a larger scope involved than we may
have understood before.
T.Robinson: I think if we'd know this before,and I think it's regrettable that it wasn't brought
up before,this could have been budgeted for. We do not have and did not have the money for this. When
you got$100 and the first bill comes in and it's a hundred-and-something, why it's a little —it wakes
you up pretty fast. And most of this has been with dogs. I don't think we've had real vicious people
that we've been dealing with. And I think that when it comes to that time, they will be sending out
other officers than what we might have. I hope they would be.
A.liefdron: Does the Village still contract with the Town for the Dog Ordinance? C
i
T.Robinson: The Village--yes,it does. Yes,they do.
A.Heffion: Does the Village reimburse the Town for that?
T.Robinson: No. The dog cases are automatically under the Town. The towns are the only
ones that have the dogs no matter where you are,except the city.
M.Palmer The Village does write a dog ticket under the Village Ordinance. The Village uses
the SPCA.
T.Robinson: The SPCA does it--acts on them--on complaints and things in the Village.
M.Palmer: The Village Police do respond to calls.
T.Robinson: Yes,but they're not-- right. Any other questions?
F.Castillo: The one thing I think you should clear up tonight is the fact that—do what you
want,but I think it would be in your best interests,and the court's.best interest,to at least set whatever
fee you're going to set as compensation for a Town Constable to be in the court, at trial, or when you
have a court proceeding. Because by right you have a right to have somebody there. 'What I'm saying is
I think at least if it's brought to our attention because it was brought up that we didn't have somebody
for a Town trial,or we got billed,I think you want at least to take care of that issue. Then on the other,
quite frankly,we could hold until the Board checks about the various service fees. That is something
1 you could hold in abeyance if you want. If you want to add it on tonight,that's fine. If you want to hold
9 ; that in abeyance until maybe you could do a little bit more checking around—but I think this will get
the ball rolling for the role of the Town Constable-- his fee of service,now that we've begun this whole j
thing--we can do some more research or whatever the Town wants to do on the service fees.
G
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s:
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Public Hearing&Special Meeting•Groton Town Board April 22,1997
M.Palmer: But we will not have anybody to serve papers.
F.Castillo: Well,what's happened in the past?
4
M.Palmer: We've given them to the Town Constable and he served them and hasn't billed the
Town. It's not our problem he hasn't billed the Town- rve didn't know that.
F.Casullo: To tell you the truth, Peggy. I think this is an issue and the next Town Board
meeting is May 13th, so you're talking here less than three weeks. The service problem could be
resolved on May 13th. You're not talking a whole lot of'time. You're talking probably less than 21
days.
A.Heffron: The fact I%we have another Town trial coming up within the next--
M.Palmer: Next Thursday. That's not saying he can't serve them. Then worry about the
compensation schedule later.
A.Dawson: It could be an hourly rate.
T.Robinson: Any input?
A.Heffron: I haven't gotten to the point where Pm scared of the defendants yet. Although it's
perfectly within the judge's right to have a court officer present anytime there's a court proceeding.
T.Robinson: These other courts are very active,both Dryden and Lansing--they're very active
courts. I don't think that, necessarily, the prices that they get are something that we have to put up
with,or what we have to do either.
E.Sovocoob Well,I think I'd be inclined to go along with the$10.25 that they were getting.
D.fey: That was the Village rate?
E.sovocook That was the Village rate. Since we are going to this and since we don't have
anything budgeted. In another year were going to have to think hard.
T.Robinson: And then we'd probably have something decided But as it is now D.Grey. So you're saying$10.25 for court time?
# E.sovoeook It's what it costs per hour right now,as it stands,plus mileage.
A.Dawson: There's no mileage involved in court.
E.sovocook Right,there is none in court.
T.Robinaon: So,$10.25 is what you want?
D.Carey: Starting point.
G.Van BenwJoten: I know that's better than$7.50.
T.Robinson: Now is this going to have to—one of the other things to decide later on then is
what this covers. I mean, we're gust talking about court trials now, and,lust covering serving of
summons, right?
M.Palmer: Service by the hour? p f
T.Robinson: No. I'm talking about the hour is$10.25 for court, right? Now I want to know
what else we're covering.
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Public Hearing&Special Meeting.Groton Town Board April22,1997
B.Sovocoob I'd say serving summonses,too--for right now.
T.Robinson: Which would be$10.25.
A.Dawson: I think you might want to re-think that. Because it's going to cost you a lot more
money if you pay it by the hour. I've probably got two hours already —on trying to get one service.
Where,normally,I'd charge$15,plus mileage. i might add that that's cheaper than the last guys that
were serving. They were getting 25 bucks.
T.Robinson: So you're saying that the$10.25 would cover--
A.Dawson: in-court duty.
T.Robinson: In-court duty?
A.Dawson: whether it be a trial or whether it be necessary for any other court proceedings.
T.Robinson: And for serving a summons?
A.Dawson: $15.plus mileage.
T.Robinson: To go one time--say you get$7 for one time,do you get$14 for the second trip?
A.Dawson: $15, no matter how many trips it takes to serve the paper. Now that's not
warrants,though. I think wan-ants will have to be negotiated.
F.Casullo: What he's talking about is the hourly rate,the$10.25, for court duty instead of
the$15. Thenjump down to the last item for the service of other process—criminal summons, civil
notices,etc.--$15 plus mileage- and what you're saying is the others would have to be negotiated at a
later date when we get more information.
A.Dawson: And I just want to make it know that it's not my idea of$10.25.
D.Palmer: We realize that. You've been appointed to the position, and you're now given a
rate that wasn't presented before--would you be receptive to less than a$15 rate?
A.Dawson: No.
D.Palmer: I think we need to know that up front.
A.Dawson: I don't think that's unreasonable when a court officer in Dryden is getting$20 an
hour.
T.Robinson: Okay. So do you want to go with the 10.25 for the sitting or whatever they call it
court officer? I notice this says here,assist the SPCA or other agencies. What does that entail?
A.Dawson: The SPCA is the first one that comes to mind because of the dog situation and
stuff like that. Many times they have a situation when they want to go out and check a place out and
they don't want to go alone. Sometimes they call the Sheriff, and if there's no Sheriff available,
sometimes they get a trooper, and if there's nobody available, they don't go—they Just won't go. So
this is one more resource for them to use as well. Again, it's a situation —it's real tough when you
have two troopers working in a County this size,and three deputies on the road. You have five people
for 100,000 people,and they just don't have time to do the stuff with the SPCA and the townships and
stuff like that.
T.Robinson: Okay. Any other comments?
D.Palmer: I guess the situation I'm uncomfortable with is that we made the arrangements
and hired the Constable without arranging a fee structure up front. And he's performed services. I
17
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Public Hearing 8c Special Meeting•Groton Town Board April 22,1997
think it's a little bit awkward,at this point,to come in and negotiate a lower rate without any advance
warning.
E.Sovoeook There wasn't a rate to start with.
D.Palmer: Well, there was a rate charged and we approved to pay that rate for the service
performed.
T.Robinson: We did pay it.
D.Palmer: That's my point. That there was no rate established before the position was
offered.
T.Robinson: Well,we didn't know that we were going to be doing this kind of business either.
D.Carey: Can we set the rates now and advertise for a Town Constable? }
E.Sovoeook We can do whatever we want to if Dewey doesn't want to stay. Or if he wants to !
stay and take what we propose--
D.Palmer: What happens if the Town is without a Constable and the need is there for
services? What does the court do?
T.Robinson: Call the Sheriff, or call the--
A.Heffron: Most likely we would hire another agency to provide security. We could hire a
part-time Groton Police officer,but it would be the responsibility of the Town to pay him whatever the
going rate is. In the absence of a Constable at the time of a trial, it's the court's responsibility to have
somebody here--whoever we can find. !,
E.Sovocook Well,if it comes to that-you could hire arrybody off the street, right? Get Marvie
to come in and set and pay him,right?
i
A.Heffron: I don't know about that. You have to refer that to your attorney. I know as far as
the Board is concerned we could hire somebody off the street.
E. Sovocool: The only thing they've got to be is a high school graduate or equivalent.
A.Dawson: If that's what you want,that's probably what you can get.
A.Heffron: In answer to Mr.Palmer s question, if we had no Town Constable, and it became
necessary to have one,it would be the responsibility of the court to get somebody here. 1
T.Robinson: And that's what happened this time. Right? A
M.Palmer: We used the Town Constable. f
T.Robinson: No,the time before. j
i
M.Palmer: We used the Town Constable for the Town trial. He was appointed Town j
Constable. f
A.Heffron: We don't necessarily need a person designated as a Town Constable to be present
at a Town trial.
T.Robinson: Oh,I understand what you're saying.
M.Palmer: But since there was a Town Constable, that's who we used. If it bad been one of
the other ones,we would have used them. The other thing the court won't be able to do is have any
18
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Public Hearing&Special Meeting Groton Town Board April 22,ION
person to serve criminal summonses and the bench warrants. We just have to keep sending letters
out to people trying to get their money.
( D.Carey: I would think since this is all kind of come on us by surprise — and we weren't
aware of this--we should go with the$10.25 for court fee per hour and$15 to serve, phis 280 a mile for
this year. And then next year,if we want to,we can change to a different rate.
A.Herron: At least next year you'll have an experienced--
D.Carey: We'll have the experience,Arland,yes.
T.Robinson: We'll also have a budget. Okay,would you like to put that into a motion?
D.Carey: I'll make a motion that the Town of Groton will pay $10.25 per hour for court
time for the Town Constable,and we'll pay$15 per summons,plus 28c per mile--is that how it should
be stated?
F.Castillo: Are you saying that you're only going to pay$15 for the service of process of like
criminal summons and civil notices, and you're going to leave out service of arrest/bench warrants
X
for subject not taken into physical custody,or taken into physical custody but not transported to jail,
or taken into physical custody and transported to the jail?
D.Carey: Can't we leave that out for the time being?
T.Robinson: We don't have the knowledge of that.
D.Carey: Let's take care of the items,the dog warrants and things like that that have to be
decided right now.
i
A.Dawson: I'll return the warrants that I have already.
T.Robinson: What kind of warrants are you talking of?
A.Dawson: I have three arrest,or bench warrants for people that haven't paid fines. So far
I've collected a fine,I've executed one warrant,and there's no set fee for that.
D.Carey: I wasn't aware that you had those--that you were working on those.
T.Robinson: See, this is--we haven't had this information.
A.Dawson: its not the courts fault and it's certainly not your fault, and it's not my fault.
This is something that has just come about. The Towns been lucky that they've been skating with the
Village coverage,and this just brought these other to a head.
M.Palmer: And the Town Constables that haven't been billing.
F.Casullo: What I think should happen here and, in all fairness to the court, if you want to
set the hourly rate at what you agreed to, that's fine. If you want to set the service of process for
criminal summonses and civil notices at$15,that's fine. You can do that tonight if you so desire. But
I think you want to table possibly until the May 13th meeting the service of the various warrants and
the charges that you're going to pay or compensate the Town Constable to do that. Because, in all
fairness to the court,they need that service: But since this kind of stuff keeps coming on bit by bit, it's
only fair to the Tdwn that's an issue that maybe I could look into and Teresa could look into, or
anyone else on the Board could look into,and see what's the going rate and see how other towns handle
that process so that when we come here on May 13th,we can put It on the agenda, and we can set the
compensation schedule for those things,too. So you're really only out three more weeks on that issue,
but at least you've accomplished tonight the going rate for your court time and the going rate for your
service of criminal summonses and civil notices. l think that's the most fair thing to do right now. I
could be wrong,but--
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.e Hearing&Special Meeting.Groton Town Board April 22,1897
D.Carey: Well,that was my intent.
A.Hermon: You don't have to make up your minds to the whole ball of wax tonight.
G.yen Benechoten: My feeling is,we do that this year and the next year we're into a new budget year
and we can budget for this position and we'll have some experience this year and well draw on that
experience a year from now. i
F.Castillo: So essentially,if you want to do that,you want to set the hourly rate for in-court
time at$10.25, and$15 plus mileage for the service of criminal summonses and civil notices right
now. And you want to table the fees for the warrants to be decided at the May meeting. What I'll do.
Teresa,is I'll put this in writing. Or do you have that?
T.Robinson: She'll have it.
F.Casullo: So that will be Dan's motion,and whoever wants to second it can do so.
T.Robinson: I'll have a second.
E.SovoeooL. I'll second it.
T.Robinson: All those in favor?
Town Board Members Carey, Sovocool,and Van Benschoten all indicated they were in favor.
T.Robinson: Opposed?
Town Board Member Palmer indicated he was opposed.
A.Heffron: What you relate the motion that was passed?
J.Fitch: A motion was made by Dan Carey to pay$10.25 per hour for court time for the
Town Constable,and$15 plus 28t per mile for service of criminal summonses and civil notices, and
table to the May meeting the fees for serving Town arrest/bench warrants.
A.Heffron: Will you send a copy of that resolution to the court?
J.Pitch: Sure.
A.Dawson: May I say something to the Board? I'm tending my resignation and it will be in
l writing tomorrow. Thank you.
T.Robinson: There's only one thing--you won't have a Constable for the trial,right? Unless I
can make arrangements with the police. Right? Isn't that right?
M.Palmer: That's right.
T.Robinson: Okay. Just want to make sure.
M.Palmer: The court will have to find somebody for Thursday,May 1st.
A.Dawson: Quite frankly, its a matter of money for me because I'm scheduled to work my
other part-time job next week and I make 11 bucks an hour there, the day that I would normally be
taking off the work the trial.
T.Robinson: Do you have to stop being a Constable just for that one day?
A.Dawson: I do now.
T.Robinson: I can appoint somebody else for that one day.
P�gblic Hearing Bc Special Meeting•Groton Town Board April 22,1907
M.Palmer. It's up to the court to find a court offices if there's no Town Constable.
T.Robinson: At your discretion, anyplace?
M.Palmer. Maybe ?Alexander can find an officer -- for $10,25 an hour using the Town
Constable rate.
T.Robinson: When will we know when this is?
M.Palmer: When will you know what?
T.Robinson: I mean,are you going to notify us ahead of time--
M.Palmer: If we have somebody for a trial?
T.Robinson: Yes,
M.Palmer: We will have somebody for the trial and you will be notified --I don't know who
It will be.
T.Robinson: That's it? Okay.
E.SovoeooL. That's it?
T.Robinson: Guess so.
E.Sovoeook I motion we adjourn..
v
D.Palmer: Second.
The time was 5:40 p.m.
Respectfully submitted,
I
Joan E.Fitch
Recording Secretary
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