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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1975-10-23 SPECIAL MEETING OF THE GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD Held at the Town Hall Groton , N . Y . Thursday - October 23rd , 1975 7 * 40 PM an 10 : 00 PM PRESENT : H . Fink - Chairman* H . Dows as Town Supervisor* G . Totman - Vice- Chairman* D . Snell - Zoning Enforcement Officer* J . Laiacona* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* C . Twigg* F . Wilson* Rodney Sellen an Chairman - Homer Planning Board* D . Payne* Dave Kryger - Chairman as Virgil Planning Board* R . Gleason Barbara Caldwell an Chairman - Dryden Planning Bd . * Mort Webb an Dryden Town Councilman* Sid Stewart - Dryden Zoning Enforcement Officer* Don Fowler - Cortlandville Zoning Enforcement Officer* * - Denotes those present . Mr . Totman welcomed everyone and said how pleased he was that they came . G . Totman : What we ' re looking for is , - - we have put a moratorium on the Town of Groton regarding mobile homes and the Town Board have asked us to redraw our mobile home regulations and come up with an ordinance be- fore the year is up and we ' re a little at a loss as to what to do and thought if we could get you all together and talk about what other towns are doing and what their influx of mobile homes is and how they are handling it , it might be beneficial to them , as well as to u s . We ' re having Josephine record what we are saying and if you would like I ' ll send each one of you a copy of the minutes of the meeting rather than trying to remember everything that is going on . To start it off with , - - I ' m quite interested , - -maybe we should start off with what we are doing in Groton but I think we would like to start off with Homer , - - they have the jump on it and are away ahead . But they , as I understand it , don ' t allow any mobile homes unless they are in parks and I don ' t really feel that the Town of Groton is look- ing in quite that direction but I think it would be good if we could get Mr . Sellen to tell us how this is working . R . Sellen : 0 . K . - - the big gun in the whole process of controlling mobile homes is the zoning ordinance . We do 'have a trailer park ordinance and we have adopted a comprehensive plan , which we developed ourselves ,it wasn ' t done under the 701 Plan , we developed it ourselves . The one single thing that does more for us is the zoning ordinance itself . The zoning ordinance was adopted in 1958 and has subsequently been revised and we are about ready to revise it again but the way it works , basically , em 1 We R . Sellen : is - - in the general provisions of our zoning ordinance there is a section entitled "Building - - - - - - - - - - Area and Trailers . " At that time everybody called them trailers , if we revised it , I ' m sure we ' d call them mobile homes . It says : "No dwelling in any district shall be erected or altered so as to provide for less than 625 fte enclosed ground . . . . . . . . . area . Trailers can be permitted in trailer camps duly licensed by the Town Board or otherwise authorized . . . . . . . " That ' s the reference to where they can be . In the ordinance we permit trailer parks in business districts only . And this , in itself , was another control because if someone wants to develop a trailer park in an agricultural or residential zone it means that a zoning change will have to take place and , of course , a public hearing and you always have a lot of people out to those . (At this point Don Payne came in . ) R . Sellen : So the process is that we will get a request from time to time , al - though never any more do they feel that they have much chance . The Appeals Board has repeatedly refused to grant any permits which would be an exception to the zoning ordinance . They have granted them only on a temporary basis for say a house trailer when somebody is constructing a permanent building and has to have , for some reason or other , a temporary residence on the site . I think they grant it for only 3 to 6 months . We also permit visiting families to tempor - arily park a mobile home while visiting in the Town but these are the only exceptions that we have ever permitted . The trailer park ordinance itself is pretty much the way that you would like to have trailer parks be laid out . Its , - - in recent years I think we ' ve had 3 - 4 requests for new trailer parks and as yet none of them have decided to develop and so we really have had very little chance to apply this because there hasn ' t been a new trailer park in the Town of Homer in the last almost 15 years . G . Totman : That ' s different from most towns . H . Fink : Back in 1958 , I ' m sure the growth trend , - - I didn ' t live around here at that time , - -were there as many mobile homes say in the surrounding areas in 1958 as in the late 1960 ' s or early 1970 ' s ? You didn ' t have too many people that lived in mobile homes giving you , - - you had to go through a hearing I guess , - - did you have much opposition from the people ? R . Sellen : Not too much . When we developed that ordinance we had probably ten different hearings in all - - not all - of - them required public hearings but did it to get the bugs out of everything and by the time we had gotten through with the tenth one there was little opposition . Of course any one that had one at the time could continue to have one under non- conforming use . As of today , I don ' t think there ' s only 2 or 3 still taking advantage of the non- conforming use . D • Kryger : Do they have to apply for a special permit in an agricultural area ? R . Sellen : That ' s right . D • kryger : What reasons do you give them for turning them down ? It ' s working for you . The only thing I ' m questioning is when you come to a public hearing and you say no , do you have to give some kind of reason ? 2 - R . Sellen : It doesn ' t have to get to the public hearing stage . D . You simply say it ' s not allowed and you ' re getting away with that ? R . Sellen : It has been challenged in court . A farmer wanted to set up a trailer for his son , - - D . Kryger : Was that in an agricultural district? R . Sellen : Yes . He was the one that took us to court on it and we were upheld . He ended up building it without a permit . B . Caldwell : How long ago was this ? R . Sellen : Probably about 8 years ago . ( J . Laiacona and C . Twigg came in at this point . ) H . Fink : Normally we have an 8 PM meeting and I found out that George had called you folks for 7 : 30 PM so called some of the members so that ' s one reason - - they are not actually late , - - they ' re early . Mr . Fink introduced Mr . Laiacona and Mr . Twigg to all present . He also explained to them that Mr . Sellen had just explained the Homer ordinance . D . Kryger : In Virgil we allow it under special permit and have a list of require- ments that have to be met in order to put it in . We have more problems and I ' m wondering how they get away with it . G . Totman : This fellow told me they are allowed all over except in the center of Virgil . D . Kryger : They are allowed in agricultural , - -we ' re trying to get a rezoning map . Will maybe have center of the village as residential and less agricultural and they will not be allowed in business or residential . G . Totman : Supposing in agricultural zone there are two dwellings 1 , 000 ft . apart and somebody wants to buy in between them for a mobile home , can they ? D . Kryger : We have a public hearing for every trailer that is put in individually . And then , of course , they have , - - I think then in our case , - - this is why I was questioning Homer , - -we have a little problem on it , - - I think it becomes the duty of the Board of Appeals to be a little bit more hard - nosed about it than what they are being in the Town of Virgil . I think they are saying : well , O . K . we hate to take a dwelling away from somebody . D • Kryger ; This is why I was questioning , - - if maybe , - - if we changed this and toughened it up it might help them . It might help you . If we try to make it lenient you really haven ' t stopped anything . Before applying for a permit " said house trailer or mobile home . . . . . . " You either have to be hard - nosed about it and have people move them out if they don ' t come in for a permit . G . Totman : What you ' re saying is they move the trailer in before they ask? D • Kryger : That ' s the first thing they do , haul the trailer in and someone says what - 3 - D . Kryger : are you doing with that trailer ? You have to have a special permit . By us setting it up this way it ' s causing problems unless you have it very , very strict and are willing to say , - - it wouldn ' t take more than once or twice , - - you haul it out . That would stop it but by letting it go you sort of lose the whole meaning of the whole thing . You should either have it and stick strictly to it or go the way Homer did and say none at all . H . Fink : Do you feel you have a need for a more stringent mobile home ordinance ? D . Kryger : They are starting right down Route 90 going right down the line . In fact we have one in there - - one of our provisions is 30 , 000 sq . ft . and this one was bought several years ago with the intention of putting a trailer on it but something happened but now they came in and have a trailer on the lot smaller than 30 , 000 sq . ft . which is wrong . H . Fink : Do you feel you have the support of your Town Board or the citizens in that , - - you know - - for tightening your ordinance , - - do you feel that you have support for this ? ( F . Wilson came in at this time - 8 * 05 PM) D . Kryger : I think one of the biggest things that I feel is that can either make it or break it and that is the Board of Appeals and they have to be tough on them and if you are going to draw anything even as tough as ours you are going to have to stick to it or you aren ' t going to accomplish anything . G . Totman : They can make or break any ordinance . Homer doesn ' t allow them at all . You allow them anywhere in the business district and Dryden has areas where they are allowed and also areas where they aren ' t allowed . B . Caldwell : 33% of our year round residents are mobile homes , that ' s including parks and I think we had a lot of mobile homes before we had land use controls so we had a problem built in and I think one of the questions , - - I don ' t know whether any of you have come up against it , - - it ' s increasingly difficult to draw the line between mobile homes and modulars . In fact I ' ve been through plants on the West Coast on land use tours where they are turning out mobile homes and modulars in the same factories and all the difference was how they were brought to the site , so I think this is going to be a question that is really going to be difficult to pin down . I think we have many of the same questions about mobile homes that you obviously have . I think we also have perhaps a different population composition because of the University and about 1 /3 of our work force commutes to the County and :the question comes up do we have alternative housing for that particular segment of the population and is it up UD the Town of Dryden to provide it . I ' m here to listen as much as anything else . M . Webb : What one town sets up will affect all the towns around it and the most lenient is going to be the one where all the trailers will be . They are going to move where they can move and where it ' s easiest to and where it ' s cheapest and we are all the while fighting this pattern . Some say we are not furnishing enough , some say we ' re furnishing too much , let Groton or Virgil have them , we ' re getting it from all sides . - 4 - B . Caldwell : It ' s very interesting , - - sometime if you have a chance , - - to see the maps prepared by the State which show the areas in the State with the highest percentage of mobile homes as year- round dwellings and in bright , bright red are the Towns of Dryden and Newfield . We still also have the question of the individual lot ones and there are all sorts of problems . D . Kryger : You do allow them on individual lots ? B . Caldwell : In certain areas . D . Kryger : Do you have special zoning for that ? B . Caldwell : No , I ' d say they are allowed in everything but RB , is that correct , Sid ? S . Stewart : RB and a couple of other small areas . Ig . Webb : We are far too small in the area we restrict . B . Caldwell : There originally was a RA area which the Planning Board in the original zoning proposal hoped for and that was going to be no year- round dwellings at all , that was for a true agricultural and recreational area , but basically , we have a RB area , just outside the Village of Dryden and then we have the large RB area which comprises Ellis Hollow and Slaterville Roads . G . Totman : In that area what do you allow? B . Caldwell : It ' s basically prime residential area . M . Webb : It ' s related to industry , like gas stations and so on by special permit . B . Caldwell : Not in Ellis Hollow , G . Totman : Only home- related businesses in Ellis Hollow area and residential ? M . Webb : And garden farming . B . Caldwell : But they couldn ' t go in there and start up a farm , could they ? M . Webb : Yes , J . Laiacona : Do you have any specifications on what kind of dwellings are put in RB ? M . Webb : You are talking about money? J . Laiacona : No . B . Caldwell : Actually the land cost in those areas would be a limiting factor . G . Totman : Is that why more expensive homes are going into that area ? B . Caldwell : No question about it , - -because I have heard people come in and say I took someone to see a lot and had to drive by a mobile home and they didn ' t want that particular area because there was a mobile home in the area , which is unfortunate . - 5 - F . Wilson : How do you draw the line on a modular home ? Does it have to be on a foundation ? How do they qualify in your area? B . Caldwell : That ' s a good question . I have had the opportunity on some of these land use sessions to see triple - length mobile homes that don ' t look like mobile homes but are qualified that way . H . Dow : But they were on permanent foundations . B . Caldwell : Not necessarily . H . Dow : When you say triple you mean 314 ' s ? B . Caldwell : 312 ' s and larger - - I have also seen mobile homes that didn ' t look like mobile homes and of course part of the reason for this is when it reaches to that 141 width it becomes greater than the heighth and I think it is a question of how you control these situations . Does anyone here know about the building standards between mobile homes and modulars ? Is this going to make a difference , perhaps ? H . Dow : What I have read of it , I don ' t think it is . G . Totman : Isn ' t the modular home going to be something you buy and add on to , - - an add - a- room type of thing . Don ' t you think it will become a future sort of thing . I was down in New York 2 years ago and there were a couple of sessions on modular homes where when you ' re first married you can only afford say a kitchen , living room and maybe one bedroom but they are so constructed that you can add a room to make it look more like a permanent dwelling , - - add say one or two more bedrooms . B . Caldwell : Ideally this is the way it is but the only ones in the true�modular market right now , - - so many of these other groups have gone out of business financially , and the modulars for the most part are being put out by firms using basic mobile home technology „ with all its pros and cons . Carrierro at Cornell has done a project on the buildings you add on to . G . Totman : A lot of people say you can ' t phase poor people out and young people that can ' t afford to buy a $ 30 , 000 home so mobile homes is the only answer . This modular seems to me to be the answer as they won ' t deteriorate like mobile homes do . I think this might solve our problem if they were here today : B . Caldwell : Eventually I think they will but in the meantime we have a set of problems . The only other solution for low income or starting families or retiring families is probably going to be the condominium type of living but not all our ordinances allow for it . H . Fink : If your limited zone were expanded , do you think that would help you as far as influx of mobile homes ? In the Town of Groton we actually have no limitations as far as where the placement is in the Town . You have B . Caldwell : I live in Ellis Hollow . How do you feel about it , Mort ? M . Webb : Where I live , - - our area can do anything- -we can say definitely the con- struction of new homes has been where our most restrictive zoning has been . No question about it . All you have to do is look where they are - 6 - M . Webb : building and it ' s in our most restrictive zone all the time . B . Caldwell : And it isn ' t that we have made it difficult to approve subdivisions in another area . In all areas of the township I know where the buildings have gone up and they have really all intended to go up in the RB zone . I ' d say probably the deciding factor is we are still technically with- in bicycling distance of the campus and I think this has been one thing but I think other areas outside the village once they got the RB designation and property values probably did tend to go up there . M . Webb : We have a development , - - Riverside Manor , - -which is moving very slow , - - mobile homes could go against them , and it ' s moving much slower than homes in Ellis Hollow where they can ' t do this . F . Wilson : What is the tax structure on the home on a foundation as opposed to one that isn ' t ? Is there a difference there ? M . Webb : We don ' t have anything to say in Tompkins County on assessment . B . Caldwell : If it ' s on a permanent foundation they do it as a standard home , as a conventionally built home . When it ' s on a - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - it would be considered as a mobile home . H . Dow : We ' re going to have to accept the principle that a modular , - - 2 sections of 212 or 214 , on a permanent foundation on a 30 , 000 ft . standard lot , if all those are put together the modular , with or without a basement on a regularly sized lot in areas not restricted specifically are we not going to have to accept them as the equivalent to any permanent residence ? B . Caldwell : If they meet New York State ' s modular code , which is basically the building code , rather than the mobile home code , I would say yes . R . Sellen : We do , we consider them conventional homes . G . Totman : Has the Town of Dryden accepted the State Building Code ? B . Caldwell : I don ' t think so . Some discussion was held on this between R . Sellen and H . Dow . Homer has adopted the State Code , G . Totman : Could you briefly describe what you know about the State Building Code - - what can you do with it that you couldn ' t do without it ? R . Sellen : Basically it ' s , - - it provides for , - - I guess they are pretty much con- sidered minimum stands for safety and fire resistance . G . Totman : That ' s what I was thinking of . Doesn ' t it help the fire department ? It gives them the authority to make inspections which you didn ' t have before . R . Sellen : I don ' t know . D . Kryger : I don ' t think they can unless it ' s a multiple dwelling . R . Sellen : A public building comes under the State Building and Construction Codes or whatever it is that applies . 7 - G . Totman : I was referring more to private dwellings . There are a lot of areas in the town and I think the village of Groton has some where people shouldn ' t even be living in them and without some kind of a code or enforceable ordinance isn ' t much you can do about it . B . Caldwell : A building code isn ' t your answer , a housing code is probably what you need . I raised the question , - - a new law went into effect about a month ago called warrant of habitability . In other words it used to be when a tenant , - - say the plumbing didn ' t work or the roof leaked you still had to pay the rent , there was nothing in the law that said he could cease paying rent although there might be some implied protections for him so under one of the tenants ' rights bill this is no longer just implied it is now that in rented property every landlord has to warrant that property will remain livable unless , of course , the damage is caused by the tenant himself . So I raised the question to the County Planning , - - O . K . what are we towns going to do , - - do we have to enforce this , do we have to have a housing code with all it implies and inspect because it ' s very expensive so Frank Liguori had a meeting with Don Gaffney of the County Health Department and apparently only the City of Ithaca in Tompkins County has a housing code with provisions so many square feet per person . However there is a section of the State Sanitary Code which the County may accept if it so desires . Tompkins County has never formally adopted this particular section and Dr . Gaffney says because of the cost of enforcement he doesn ' t feel the County is about to . Apparently they had some public hearings on it two or three years ago so the County Planning Department feels this won ' t need much enforcement because of the cost except as an individual tenant complains through the Court , in which case they will use the provision they have adopted as probably the standard . G . Totman : There are a lot of mobile homes that people have put in and then moved out later into homes and rented the mobile homes to other people . We have some in the West Groton area that I ' m sure you wouldn ' t want to walk into , let alone live in . That ' s why I was interested . D . Kryger : That ' s one provision we have that you are not allowed to rent mobile homes because it ' s the same thing you were just talking about . We found the minute you start renting a mobile home they start deteriorating . There ' s one right now that we might allow a man who was injured and has to go back to school , - - we might give him a special permit but if we do it will be a limited one that within 2 years can no longer rent . It ' s a set period of time . G . Totman : How about the farmer that puts in a mobile home for his hired man ? D . Kryger : It probably would be acceptable as long as he didn ' t sell the farm and his stock and wouldn ' t need a mobile home then , - - in that case he would have to sell it . If they rent it , it ' s bad news . H . Fink : Don , we haven ' t heard from you . How about in Cortlandville ? D . Fowler : With our present zoning , mobile homes can only have a permit for agricultural zoning and has to be a full acre with 150 ft . road frontage , 65 foot front yard - - however they can appeal and apply , - - G . Totman : What you ' re saying is the Board of Appeals can make or break any of those ordinances . D . Fowler : That ' s right . 8 - D . Fowler : Town Board has said they will not approve any more at the present time . M . Webb : I always wonder about the legal angle , - - you are going to allow them on individual lots ? Is this legal ? D . Fowler : I don ' t say forever but they would frown on giving permission for new parks right now . G . Totman : I like Homer ' s ruling that they have to be in the business area and not in agricultural area . Take what Dryden did awhile back in relation to how it effected people in the Town of Groton , - - they allowed mobile home parks in agricultural district so in the farthest corner of the town allowed a mobile home park to go in . But in the Town of Groton , in one of the largest hamlets , which is McLean , they have to handle all these people , the kids , - - find activities for them - - all the kids in the park are in our town , I think they should have stayed in the business district . Seriously if you are involved in the community at all you know of our young children now the largest percentage of them are from the park which isn ' t even in our town . The County suggested plan is to keep that type of growth centrally located . Now that park in the Town of Dryden has its own sewer system and is looking fine now but they are so far away and have a potential of 96 trailers at the present time , if they ever do have a problem they ' re a long way from any sewer or water systems . (Mr . V . Rankin came in at 20 to 9 PM) . R . Sellen : In putting them in the business zone , in most cases the owner of the park wanted to sell mobile homes . Logically , it doesn ' t seem you would want it in a residential area . I think most of the requests we have had for parks have been for way out and , in most cases , they have been willing to develop package plans for large scale , - - one was done under a planned unit development in which the developer had in mind several different levels of housing . Expensive up on top and as you progressed downhill trailers were at the bottom . As it turned out is a beautiful proposal with recreation areas and so on . The biggest opposition at the public hearing was from neighbors from miles away objecting to : the trailers and the developer , after the public hearing , withdrew his application and it would have been a good one . G . Totman : Just the idea that he was going to allow trailers there . D . Kryger : It seems to me that a lot of the feelings of the people in Homer , - - they don ' t want trailers , - - the people that are living there now . G . Totman : I think Homer is unique though . They put this in in 1958 but if you tried to do it here in the Town of Groton now you would be blown off the map . All the trailer owners would come in and more then fill our Town Hall , whereas the people who live in conventional homes aren ' t too concerned . The difference between mobile homes and modulars was discussed By H . Dow , B . Caldwell and M . Webb . G . Totman : Sid , how do you handle this situation where people come in with mobile homes and don ' t get permits or anything and are just there ? S . Stewart : We haven ' t run into that . Nobody has ever refused to get one if it was brought to their attention . 10 - D . Kryger : You don ' t have that much problem with it , do you . In your situation the price of the lot would drive them over to Virgil . D . Fowler : That ' s the idea , yes . Agricultural land doesn ' t come cheap . D . Kryger : I know it would have to be the price of the lot . It would be two to four times better than in the Town of Virgil . D . Fowler : And for mobile homes , - -have been starting out with a six-month permit that has to be approved by the Town Board and then they appeal for another 6 months and after that it goes - on ' the permanent tax roll so it ' s $ 12 . 00 for the year . H . Dow : What control does that 6 -month period provide you ? If they violate the rules of the game they will not get a renewal at the end of the 6 months ? If they don ' t skirt it and so on after 6 months it ' s over ? D . Fowler : The County Health Department would be checking to see that the sanitary conditions remain good . H . Fink : Is that the basis of the 6 months before they come on the permanent tax roll , is that why you did it in that stage ? D . Fowler : That ' s the general idea . The Town Board knows it is being done properly or they can deny it . H . Fink : They would consider mobile homes undesirable in some spots ? D . Fowler : I wasn ' t in on it from the beginning , I ' ve only been on it 6 months . H . Fink : It seems hard to move someone after 6 months . D. . Fowler : Well they are apt to move in and out at will but now the Town Board has instructed me if it does go on a permanent foundation in some situations I can start them right out with a building permit . G . Totman : This means a permanent foundation , not skirting ? D . Fowler : Right , with or without a cellar . We have a few problems with trailer parks and it ' s common knowledge I guess and there won ' t be any more at least for awhile . H . Dow : Could you and Rod reconcile this point . One allows them in commercial only and the other in agricultural . G . Totman : Homer doesn ' t allow them at all . H . Dow : Are your parks in agricultural ? D . Fowler : No . H . Dow : And yours are in commercial ? R . Sellen : Yes , only in commercial . M . Webb : You said wouldn ' t allow mobile home parks , what do you mean? D . Fowler : They would have to apply to the Town Board to set up a park and the - 9 - G . Totman : They haven ' t been penalized for not doing it originally? S . Stewart : No , if you have a trailer move into an area without a variance , you would know about it before they even got it on the lot . G . Totman : Do you have that in Cortlandville at all? D . Fowler : No , not to any extent . If it has happened they might move it in but come in the same day and get their permit . H . Dow : You have a zoning sign at the entrance to your town ? D . Fowler : That ' s right . H . Dow : Do you have one , Dave ? D . Kryger : Yes , D . Fowler : And I ' d say , George , in regard to this question of modulars , which are usually put up on a permanent foundation , we treat them as a regular residence . D . Kryger : Some of them look as good on permanent foundations . G . Totman : I think the people that go that route are the kind that are interested in having a nice home . D . Fowler : They are more expensive . C . Twigg : Why are they more expensive ? B . Caldwell : The difference in distance between framings and so on . D . Kryger : The wiring is different on them too , isn ' t it ? B . Caldwell : I ' m not sure . Some discussion was held on this subject by D . Fowler , B . Caldwell , G . Totman and others . F . Wilson : My daughter happens to live in one of these homes and the way it is constructed is to have some kind of a basement which houses the plumbing and everything is down there . You would have to have some kind of a permanent foundation on it . M . Webb : Did you say you have your mobile homes on special permit only ? D . Kryger : Special permits . It goes to the Board of Appeals and public hearing route . M . Webb : This is for every mobile home ? D . Kryger : So I think the regulations are there . It ' s just a matter of , - - I think people feel it ' s a lot of red tape they have to go through . This is my personal feeling that somewhere along the line someone has to , - - in the case of some of these that are taken in and put on blocks before they get the special permit and some are put on lots smaller than the regulations allow , - - somewhere they have to say wait a minute because otherwise people are bringing them in because 11 - D . Kryger : they feel it ' s only red tape and try to sneak by and then if they get caught they say O . K . I ' ll go through the red tape , because no one has ever been turned down . M . Webb : This is why we stayed away from the special permit , don ' t like the idea because if you don ' t ever turn them down you might as well tell your zoning officer to go ahead . We feel that in Dryden , as big as we are , would be at public hearings four to five nights a week . D . Kryger : We ' re drawing up our new zoning map and are going to restrict it more . D . Fowler : I feel it ' s coming with the County Planning Department coming out with a master plan . You have yours already , don ' t you Dave ? D . Kryger : We ' re working on it . G . Totman : You ' re just starting to form a Planning Federation . How does that differ from County Planning Board ? D . Fowler : It ' s made up of some of our environmental people , planning board , zoning board for suggestions of keeping the county the way we want it . Do they want it agricultural , do we want to keep it quaint the way it is , you know , and they are going to come up with suggestions . D . Kryger : It ' s also for information like we ' re doing here tonight . B . Caldwell : That ' s really the way the Tompkins County Board works . We have representatives from all the boards on it and so on . G . Totman : On the County Planning Board ? B . Caldwell : Yes . Apparently they can be formed in two ways , - - the way it is in Tompkins County , this coalition sort of thing with recommending powers only or a planning board of a very limited number of people and apparently the Board of Representatives felt that at least for now the coalition form seems to be functioning . G . Totman : In your County Planning Federation , how is the chairman picked ? D . Fowler : We ' ve only had one meeting with - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - chairman . R . Sellen : They will use their staff for anything the group wants but they won ' t have any real authority to do anything other than just act as H . Dow : An advisory body ? R . Sellen : More or less . It will be an avenue that the towns and subdivisions can find out what is going on which otherwise through the regular County Planning Board , which doesn ' t have a representative say from each of the subdivisions and planning board necessarily . D . Fowler : They have their advisory committee , - - citizens ' one . R . Sellen : Yes , which gives some input from the outside , too , but I don ' t know what the value of the Federation will be . G . Totman : Dave , a person applies for a trailer permit to put on an individual home site and you have a public hearing , have you been to any of 12 - G . Totman : these public hearings ? D . Kryger : One , G . Totman : My question is if they have this public hearing and there are land owners , one on one side and one across the road that don ' t want it , are they still passing these ? D . Kryger : The one I was to , they did , and they had a very good out on that one as there was less than 30 , 000 ft . which was too small but they still passed it . D . Fowler : Are your variances based on hardship ? D . Kryger ; Yes . R . Sellen : Our Appeals Board is meeting next week for the first time in 2 years . We decided to hire a full- time or a part- time man , he ' s there every day and virtually every problem the , Appeals Board meets for has been resolved by the enforcement officer . G . Totman : He eliminated the problems ? R . Sellen : Almost entirely . D . Fowler : How did he do that ? R . Sellen : They say no . D . Fowler : I ' m at some kind of a meeting like that almost every night , - - in fact have 2 or 3 for next Monday night and I , frankly , - - I try to avoid a variance that involves the County Planning Board because that holds things up 6 weeks if it ' s within so many feet of a State highway . Sometimes it takes 3 - 4 months before they are satisfied and we have to have own meeting and the results of the County Planning Board has to be read at our own hearing and if I can avoid going through them I certain .. y do . D . Kryger : We jumped them about that because that ' s ridiculous because in our case were working with a developer - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -well , Greek Peak is a good example . They weren ' t able to start building until August and they started in March before the snow had left and it was the same thing back to the County and back again . Some discussion was held on this by D . Kryger , D . Fowler , B . Caldwell and others . H . Fink : Do we have any other questions ? J . Laiacona : I ' d like to find out , - - I lean towards the idea of designating areas as Dryden has done . Do I get the idea that you think you didn ' t designate enough area ? B . Caldwell : I think it would be difficult for us to spread it too much more be - cause mobile homes are already in most of the areas in the Town . Can you see an RB area in , let ' s say , the Western part of the Town at all ? 13 - M . Webb : I think it could be . It depends on how you ' re thinking and I ' m in the school of thought that it wasn ' t big enough to start with and the reason it wasn ' t was because you people weren ' t used to zoning and were against everything to start with . I think we ' re working towards stiffer , - - I think Homer has the ideal setup . G . Totman : Did you hear what he said , that their Board of Appeals hasn ' t met for 2 years ? M . Webb : Yes , but how do we get to that point ? I can see Groton ' s point , I think you are in worse shape than we are and how do you get to that point ? D . Kryger : Unless you get a lot of backing from the town people , - - B . Caldwell : Yes , the town as a whole . G . Totman : You have to sell it to them firzt . D . Kryger : Your best bet is to jump to Homer ' s situation if you can sell it . But the best thing otherwise is restricted areas . Restrict as many as the town people will allow . J . Laiacona : I have a question about that . Is there any possibility or likelihood or is it legal or whatever to have local referendums . I mean local interms of - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - but that this lot wants this and that lot wants that and find out what the various neighborhoods are going to vote for ? B . Caldwell : I think you have . a danger there . You might find noone wants them and the Courts will throw that out . J . Laicona : How did Homer get by then ? B . Caldwell : Because they allowed them in parks . D . Kryger : You have a great deal of control over a park because it ' s owned by one person so they are not permanent dwellings if they don ' t pay their rent he kicks them out . Some discussion was held on mobile home parks by D . Kryger , B . Caldwell and others . H . Dow : I would like to say something , - - I have thought about this for a long time and I ' d like to say it before a group like this . Number one , it seems to be inherent in most people ' s thinking that they want to own a piece of land and in a town structured like Groton that we restrict parks , mobile home parks , to agricultural areas . Now there ' s our Town up there ( pointing to map ) and on that upper map we have an agricultural district made up of 56% of town aid 18 , 000 acres , - - I ' m assuming these acres are owned by farmers , who wouldn ' t like to sell them to a developer to develop a mobile home park or condominium , a plan where the developer puts in roadways and so on and sells the units to people who want a mobile home . Now they would own their own lot and have their own land , would be in a communal situation with sanitation and playgrounds for kids and near to work and so on and it would seem to me this plan where we could find a developer who would see a profit in it , this could be a way of getting at this problem , - - still giving 14 - H . Dow : people the privilege of owning their own land but being restricted to area designated as mobile home area and that sort of thing I feel might appeal to a developer where he could build it up and sell it lot by lot and call it a deal . B . Caldwell : Basically what you ' re suggesting is a mobile home subdivision with minimum sized lots where public services could be developed . M . Webb : Your biggest problem , - - the mobile home park owner should be held responsible for maintaining certain grade , you get one in and he doesn ' t meet standards you have a heck of a time getting it out but if you have one man responsible he makes sure it meets standards because of the other tenants H . Dow : In other words , my idea of them owning their own land wouldn ' t work ? Would have to be a landowners association . B . Caldwell : They are difficult to form under New York State law . R . Sellen : You have to convince Albany in the first place that the thing has some chance of survival . H . Dow : It would take a lot of doing , wouldn ' t it ? B . Caldwell : The developer would really have to see the dollars in it , frankly . B . Caldwell : A Planning Board could do this through their Subdivision Regulations . G . Totman : Yes , when the developer applies for subdivision approval the Planning Board could say in one of its requirements that yes this could be approved and you have to have so much recreation area and so forth and you can require through the planning board , as I understand it , you can require these regulations through the planning board and then the Town enforcement officer will see that they are kept up . D . Kryger : I think the Town Board has to make the final - - G . Totman : It depends on whether they have given the planning board plat approval or not . H . Dow : Groton should have a hundred unit one outside the village , - -we have a 28 - acre court designed for 100 units and that should relieve some of our pressure . We have another one on Champlain Road in McLean which has been in operation with 22 units for 3 - 4 years . If we could have some in the agricultural area , where some farmer is will- ing to sell 100 acres there , it could be graded properly and so on , - - probably 3 outfits could take care of the mobile home needs in our town because we only have 5 , 000 people so I just wonder if that would be the way we should head . That ' s up to the Planning Board to come along with but we keep coming back to picking an area in our agricultural area where mobile home parks could reasonably develop . We still have people who say they don ' t want to live in a park , - - I wouldn ' t want to myself , and I guess right in that area is where diplomacy is needed . Mr . Totman mentioned that the Ithaca Journal is running a very good series on mobile home parks and mobile homes this week . 15 - C . Twigg : What are the shortcomings on these 6 - 8 - 10 unit parks ? B . Caldwell : In most cases the guy isn ' t making enough money to take care of the driveways . They usually have to exist with standard wells and septic systems . Probably the owner doesn ' t have enough cushion to provide recreational areas . For instance Jim Ray ' s has provided a spot free for the Cooperative Extension Service to have a trailer so that there ' s a full recreational program going on right in the park because he happens to run that big of an operation but your 8 - trailer outfits just aren ' t able to do that . R . Sellen : The bigger ones are having troubles too , aren ' t they? B . Caldwell : Generally in the parks in Tompkins County runs between 7% and 16% depending on whom you talk to . R . Sellen : All the ones around Cortland are in trouble . C . Twigg : The ones they interviewed in the Ithaca Journal , - -most of them have changed hands every little while . G . Totman : They are , the smaller park owners aren ' t making enough money to keep them so they unload them . Some discussion was held on this and on letting people live in trailers temporarily while they build permanent homes or letting them live in the basement while building the rest of their home as they could afford to . H . Dow : We sure need a lot of wise input on this thing because times are terrible . People are going to go on getting married and going to go on living and if we don ' t want mobile homes we have got to find some kind of relief for them to get started . I feel this very deeply . We just can ' t legislate everything to the tune of an ideal that we think must be it . There are human equations in here , - -what are we going to do about it ? We have to have a solution here which will be reasonably satisfactory and we ' re far from it . B . Caldwell : How does your town feel ? This may not seem related but how does it feel about Liguori ' s selective community plan ? H . Dow : Our Town Board likes it very much - - the corridor plan . G . Totman : His No . 4 plan . H . Dow : We like it very much . B . Caldwell : We ' ve been batting it around in Dryden , - - O . K . love it in theory but how is it going to work? Say somebody comes in with a major sub - division but away out in the middle of nowhere . When the county says recommend that every lot be so many acres the developer might throw up his hands , and say it ' s not economically feasible . We ended up restricting him to 2 plus acre lots , will allow him pro - bably by - - - - - - - - - - - -more than 10 lots but is this a wise use of our land and if so how can we get sufficiently smaller lots with services ? We haven ' t come to true grips with it yet as to how to solve it or if we can . Do you have any ideas ? 16 - G . Totman : Don ' t you think somewheres down the line the State Health Depart - ment , - - doesn ' t Frankls , - - if you adopted his subdivision more than 7 lots would not be allowed out in the country , has to be in this concentrated area . More and more extra people are using water and so on and the health departments are getting involved , - - like in Freeville they are going to have a problem with Fall Creek . This same type of thing can happen in the county and somewhere along the line someone has to make a ruling that if they go out there the developers are going to have to pay for sewers to come out to them . B . Caldwell : Well with 2 acre lots we also require a soil conservation report and really there ' s room enough for even a replacement septic system . G . Totman : True but if somebody else puts one next to it . B . Caldwell : I think what we have to consider is long term school bus service and recreation for kids and I have a batch of grad students work- ing on the problem now trying to figure out some of these other problems , - -how much does it cost in long term town tax dollars to maintain so many miles of road and plow services and so forth . I don ' t think anybody has these figures yet . G . Totman : You mentioned tax dollars . This is one of my main concerns . If we hadn ' t down something about the influx of trailers , - -Homer doesn ' t allow them and if they don ' t go to Virgil they come to Groton and the tax base is not as great as on a piece of property and to me if we don ' t do something it will deteriorate the tax base of the whole town eventually and will discourage all other kinds of development . M . Webb : This is why people have moved to trailers to begin with because our taxes keep going up and this pushes people that way all the while and I think our whole land tax structure has got to be changed . D . Kryger : I have a question , too , on depreciation of trailers . Are they that bad ? H . Dow : They have a 12 - year depreciation table and at the end of 12 years the average trailer is assessed at half of its original price so You lose half of your investment in 12 years . G . Totman : I think our legislature did it wrong when they allow trailers to be bought with no down payment but need a down payment for conventional homes . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , B . Caldwell and others . H . Dow : We have to , - -between now and September 20th next , - - come up with a feasible plan for the Town of Groton which is going to have permanency about it . Can ' t just be a temporary solution , it has to have something permanent about it in terms of growth over the next few years so we just have to get busy on this thing and come up with something practical and workable . It seems to me that the Dryden idea with sections for mobile homes is good , - - some of Homer ' s ideas seem to be very good and I think we ' re fortunate in Groton at this 17 - H . Dow ; point to have a Board of Appeals that is oriented towards a rigid control so we can put all that together and come up next spring with something really good if you folks can help us that would be good . D . Kryger : One thing we did on one item , - - a zoning change , - -we went around and did a little talking to people in that area and I was quite sur - prised , - -we talked to several people and out of several I thought would be against it they were not in favor of it but they could see that it was inevitable and that things had to change . There was only one strong opposition and he said you do anything you want to anyways . H . Dow : Beginning in October 1974 we started having sectional meetings in Groton City , McLean , West Groton and at the school . We accepted suggestions and incorporated them in our zoning ordinance here and we never once tried to make people feel they weren ' t part of it and when it came time for our night of actual determination we had 56 people out and 4 dissenting . G . Totman : That wasn ' t in 1974 , Hicks , that was in 1971 . H . Dow : I meant before I was in this position , - -when we adopted it in March 1972 and it came about I ' m sure from bringing the people all to - gether . B . Caldwell : The last few meetings we ' ve had we made a real effort to say we ' re here to listen not to tell you but we ' re all going to play it fair so everybody has a chance to speak and it calms things down , - - some- times . H . Fink : Is there anything else anybody would like to discuss ? I appreciate it Don that you could come . D . Fowler : It ' s a pleasure . H . Fink : And also Sid , Barb , Dave , Rodney . I feel myself personally that I got an awful lot out of it and so far as I ' m concerned you ' ve helped the Town of Groton by coming here tonight and , likewise , I hope you folks got something out of it . In some cases our towns do border and I know some of us have never met before and I ' m glad we met here and if we can help you on anything feel free to call us and I ' ll feel free to call you again if you can help us . Thank you very much . H . Dow : I ' d like to ask one question . Our zoning ordinance is set up in 3 areas , - - agricultural , medium intensity and low intensity . Now agricultural defines itself , - - it ' s that big white area , the lighter gray , the low intensity area is that area right around our village and hamlets - - West Groton , McLean and Village of Groton , and the medium intensity extends along Route 222 towards Cortland I can point it right out to you . Now this right here is our medium in- tensity designated as the area in which we want to encourage in-, dustry into our town . Now this area here is Peru Road , Peruville , and here ' s McLean . Now this agricultural medium intensity , do you think we have the structure here to go on and get moving with this problem here tonight ? Nowhere near as complicated as Dryden , - - you 18 - H . Dow : have five or six , we only have three . We have extended it out here to the Cayuga- Locke line . Do you think - - you ' ve had experience and Homer has , it ' s a way of doing it and Virgil and all of you , would you stick to those 3 zones or would you go to a more sophisticated breakdown ? B . Caldwell : I honestly don ' t know . I think that ' s only a decision you can . make . I ' d use the services of the County Office for advice . H . Fink : I think some of us like the idea of probably a R- 1 and different zones . C . Twigg : We have to get it set up . H . Fink : We ' re not going to be able to answer that in one short session . M . Webb : How much of the town do you want in low intensity and medium , that is more important . I think basically you want to sit down and figure out what you want in the town and how much of what in each area . Some discussion was held on this by D . Kryger , B . Caldwell and others . Mr . Kryger said Virgil was looking into the possibility of going into two agricultural areas and re - quiring 22 acres on one and 5 acres on the other to eliminate taking some of the better farm land and subdividing it . G . Totman : I think we have to plan that we are going to get growth . M . Webb : And if you don ' t do something , you may have growth you don ' t want . H . Fink : If anybody would like a copy of tonight ' s minutes , leave your name and address and I ' ll see that you get a copy . Thanks again for coming . The meeting adjourned at 10 : 00 P . M . Respectfully submitted , . &COOOL Josephine Bell 19 - '