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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1975-07-22 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD PUBLIC HEARING Held at the Town Hall Groton , N . Y . Tuesday - July 22 , 1975 - 8 : 00 P . M . PRESENT : H . Fink* - Chairman D . Snell - Zoning Enforcement Officer* G . Totman* - Vice - Chairman B . Bucko - Town Attorney* J . Laiacona* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* Co Twigg* C . Stanley Riese* R . Gleason* F . Wilson D . Payne - Denotes those present . H . Fink called the hearing at 8 P . M . and read aloud the Notice of Public Hearing on the application of C . Stanley Riese which was published in the Journal and Courier on July 16 , 1975 and a copy of which is attached hereto and made a part of these official minutes . H . Fink : Seeing no members of the general public are present I will call this hearing to a close at 8 : 10 P . M . REGULAR MEETING OF THE GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD WAS CONVENED AT 8 * 10 PM TUESDAY JULY 22 , 1975 PRESENT : H . Fink - Chairman* D . Snell - Zoning Enforcement Officer* G . Totman - Vice - Chairman'; B . Bucko - Town Attorney* J . Laiacona* C . Stanley Riese* C . Twigg* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* R . Gleason* D . Payne F . Wilson * - Denotes those present . H . Fink : There ' s one change on Mr . Riese ' s map , - -he is in the process of selling his home and when he spoke about the agreement to the purchasing people he said an acre , more or less . Now the last map we had showed . 7 acre so he had Mr . Green come back in and resurvey the lot to make it come to 1 . 01 acres . I couldn ' t see any problem , - -he got hold of me - - so thought I ' d just bring it to your attention . Are there any further questions of Mr . Riese ? J . Laiacona : None here . G . Totman : I don ' t see any problems . D . Snell : He can ' t sell another lot now . H . Fink : He can sell his home and then he can sell parcel 3 and 4 if this is approved . - 1 - D . Snell : You sold your other lot up there where you did live so that ' s one . Now you ' re selling where you live . H . Fink : That ' s 2 and he can go to 4 . G . Totman : After this is approved . H . Fink : For the record he has not sold his home but has a buyer as soon as this is approved but , Stan , I believe - - I - could be wrong , - - I ' d have to write Frank Liguori a letter because it borders on Route 222 and will have to notify them but I don ' t foresee any problems with the County Planning Board at all but to be safe will drop them a line this week and we should hear from them immediately and I will then notify you of our decision . Is that alright ? C . Riese : Alright , H . Fink : We ' ll vote on this at a later time . Co Riese : You ' ll notify me , then ? H . Fink : I ' ll notify you in writing , - - I hope within 7 - 10 days . C . Riese : How long do I have to wait ? H . Fink : As soon as I notify you . By law we have 45 days to decide but it will be sooner than that . C . Riese : 0 . K . , - - thank you very much . (Mr . Riese left the meeting at this time ) H . Fink : For the record , I received from the Environmental Conservation people a letter regarding Grace LePage ' s subdivision , - - the letter came from Syracuse of their approval so that ' s in her file . I think at this time we ought to open this meeting up for discussion , - - well , before we start , we asked Dana at the last meeting to give us a few facts , - - the facts he has on the number of mobile homes that have moved into the Town of Groton over the last few years . D . Snell : We had 22 new mobile homes in 1974 , 12 - 13 in 1973 - - J . Laiacona : Do you have the same statistics for permanent dwellings ? H . Fink : Yes , R . Gleason : We started in 1972 , do you go back there ? D . Snell : 5 in 1975 so far . These were all new ones but we did have some replacements besides . R . Gleason : Do you have the figures for 1972 ? H . Fink : 1972 wasn ' t a full year . B . Bucko : Harvey asked me to come here this evening , - - it ' s your decision what you do about the moratorium , I just want to make an observation . This is 2 - B . Bucko : the Planning Board and you are to be planning for the Town and I don ' t think there ' s anybody here , per se , against mobile homes as such but you people , as a Planning Board , have to look at what this Town is going to be in 10 years time and how you are going to plan it because the Town Board relies on you to help with the planning and whether there are too many mobile homes on individual lots , whether it is growing to be out of proportion , this is your decision . I ' m not going to say anything or try to influence you because all I am is the legal advisor to the Planning Board and to the Town but you have to take an overall concept of what is good for the Town , where it is going , if it is growing or going in a certain direction , - - lwhat . you should do about it , - -what you would recommend the Town Board to do about it and then make your decision . Growth is going to come to Groton , - - it ' s already here and , in fact , I was in on the original 701 planning and they didn ' t believe - we % were going to grow at all . They thought we were a hick town and would stay out in the sticks and not grow but in the last year we have grown more and more and you have had subdivisions to pass on , - - everything is happening . The ordinances we have are not perfect , everybody did the best they could at the time they passed them but I have come as a citizen of the Town and I want to know where it is going to go and what can be done or how to plan it and what should be done . I have no solutions but I ' m concerned about everything , not just mobile homes , in general , and in 10 years from now who knows what Groton will be like and what our taxes will be like - - - we will have to provide more services and if it isn ' t an orderly growth it will be one hell of a mess . You read cases on zoning and Board of Appeals and Planning , - - it ' s all around those items and , gentlemen , you have a job to do . H . Fink : Thank you , Ben . B . Bucko.: Let me make one further comment , - -no matter what you do you ' re going to be unpopular but . if you are on the Planning Board you might have to do things that are unpopular and you have to do it for progress and you have to stand by your convictions . If you don ' t then - your efforts will be wasted . H . Fink : Very well put . (Mr . Totman handed out copies of the minutes of the last Planning Board meeting ) J . Laiacona : I would like to make some corrections in the minutes of the last meeting - - on page 2 I said : "Are we going to the Town Board to speak on the moratorium and do we have any plans as to what we are going to say . " Later on in that paragraph I said : "maybe we could have a chart . . . " On page three " on the tax rolls and next year $ 97 , 000 and in 15 years it will be half that amount . . . . " H . Fink : Are there any other corrections to the minutes ? G . Totman moved the minutes be accepted , as corrected , and R . Gleason seconded the motion , - -Motion carried . H . Fink : George , we asked you at the last meeting to see if you could get some information from the County and possibly from outlying towns so tell 3 - H . Fink : us if you have accomplished this ? Did you do some homework ? G . Totman : Well , I didn ' t get as much as I wanted to get . Homer is sending me some information in the mail but it hasn ' t got here yet but it ' s not a good one to follow because they don ' t allow mobile homes outside of parks but they are sending us their ordinance and rules and regulations so we can look at them . The Town of Cortlandville - - I have to tell you just what the guy told me . I told him we were having a problem with mobile homes and are looking for any information he could give us and I can quote him almost verbatim , - -he said I under - stand your problem , - - all you have to do is drive from Cortland to Groton and you can tell by the number of trailers you see . I talked to the Town Assessor in Cortland and their Enforcement Officer , - - I didn ' t get much from the Enforcement Officer as he has only been in the job 4 months . So far this year they have had 4 requests in the Town of Cortlandville , - - I think there are about 15 mobile homes in the Town of Cortlandville which is bigger than our Town and they have now put a moratorium on new parks in Cortlandville . They do require 1 acre of land for any mobile home in the Town of Cortlandville , which is one reason why they are not getting any more because the value of the land there is much greater ' than it is in the Town of Groton so it makes it almost prolAibitive for them to buy there . They also require front of trailer to be 60 ft . from the highway . Frank Liguori doesn ' t have an up - to - date chart on mobile homes but I got a book here Housing Inventory of Tompkins County but it ' s 1971 but I think it ' s interesting to note in it that in 1971 when they took this survey , and this was before a lot of towns started tighten- ing down , - - the Town of Groton had more mobile homes on individual lots than any other town in the County and since then its mushroomed - - at that time had 119 mobile homes on individual lots . The two towns that came closest to Groton were Dryden and Lansing . Anyway Frank said he would work on it and see what he could get for us . R . Gleason : Dryden has a lot of them in parks , - - 630 . H . Fink : On another table you showed me a few minutes ago , George , - -how recent is that table ? You just showed me something about Tompkins County . G . Totman : This is also in 1970 , - - that was when the census was taken , - - Cortland had 728 mobile homes . H . Fink : That ' s the County of Cortland ? G . . Totman : County of Tompkins had 1588 , - -more than twice the number of Cortland . It just gives you something to go on as to what is happening . H . Fink : Anything else , George ? G . Totman : I have done a lot of reading on taxing and so forth and more or less it ' s the same thing over and over again . When you read about the taxation and the different effects that mobile homes have on property values and so on . C . Twigg : This was the information that we were quite interested in , - -what - 4 - C . Twigg : effect mobile homes have on our tax base or - - wasn ' t someone going to look up that information ? G . Totman : It ' s a little difficult to get . B . Bucko : The County Assessor can give you how they assess the property and the percentage that it is supposed to be depreciated for over a 10 - year period I believe and I think it ' s about 3% every year until it gets down to 50% valuation . The comment that the County Assessor made to me is that that is the pro - cedure that they are to follow but because of the work load in the County Assessor ' s Department they are not fully en - forcing that procedure but when they catch up on the work they are going to start doing it so if they do it then all the mobile homes that have been here for 10 years , if they follow their formula , the assessment will go to 50% on them and all they will do then is assess the land and 50% of the trailer . You have to realize , of course , if they have a trailer for 5 years and replace it with a brand new trailer then of course the assessment is going to go back up . H . Fink : Tom told me very few are being retaxed as new trailers because people will put a new one in and say nothing so they have no way of telling so keep it as to what they have on unless in the case where a few might contact Dana , otherwise they are not informed of them . He says the majority , - -he doesn ' t know about . R . Gleason : Is that necessarily true ? Today the assessor was at my house - - they will visit every piece of property , won ' t they ? B . Bucko : Not necessarily , - - if Groton is the one will do all of them . G . Totman : They haven ' t done this in 5 years . R . Gleason : You ' re saying trailers will be assessed at decreasing amount each year , - -how do they assess other buildings ? B . Bucko : The individual trailer , - - is assessed as they see it , - - the year and so forth . They do the same thing on homes , - - in other -words if you have a building that is 40 x 40 they will look at it , will include improvements and so forth and make an evaluation on it and put assessment on it , - -will do the same thing on a trailer - - however if they follow the formula it ' s automatic that every year trailer will decrease whereas a residence will not until they come back and reassess it . D . Snell : May I say something ? Every addition to a new house or trailer Ihave - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - R . Gleason : What I ' m trying to get at is , - - O . K . , - -residences , trailers , - -what about other property ? B . Bucko : They assess them as such . R . Gleason : Do they decrease them ? B . Bucko : No , - - no , just the trailers , - . = 5 = R . Gleason : I have bins , - - they decrease in value . B . Bucko : They depreciate but not as far as assessment is concerned . R . Gleason : The last reassessment was in 1966 or 1965 . They have been changed since then . B . Bucko : The only time that a home , or building , - -when I say home I mean a frame house , - - the only time that they will depreciate is if it is deteriorating . R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - - on a home . B . Bucko : But on a mobile home it ' s automatic . C . Twigg : Whether he ' s repainted it or not , it still decreases in value . G . Totman : It says in this book - - " probably due to the fact that . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . " It explains why they go down in value each year . R . Gleason : What I was trying to get at - - I ' m saying maybe there ' s no formula for other buildings to go down due to obsolescence and so on but they have been decreased in value , - - I ' m talking about buildings other than a home' . B . Bucko : This is true , - - I ' m not disagreeing with you . Your bins because they may have been 20 years old and are not being used , - -you have depreciated them to the extent where they will be replaced with a new type of bin - -might say the assessment shouldn ' t be as high now as before but the difference between a conventional frame home my understanding is the value does not go down unless the home de - teriorates . R . Gleason : I understand , - - O . K . On the basis for what we are talking about , - - basically what we are talking about is property values in the Town of Groton and so there ' s housing as one , some manufacturing plants , farms , farm buildings , any physical structure or whatever so we have picked out mobile homes as a fall guy for a possible decrease in value in the Town yet what I ' m trying to bring out is there could be other types of buildings that would depreciate as - well as mobile homes . B . Bucko : Your point is well taken and only the County Assessor can tell you what they have done with buildings , - - in other words since they are doing assessment now could very - well tell you whether they are using any formula for decreasing other types of buildings but I have to take exception to your statement regarding mobile homes because of the tax base I think the Planning Board when they passed that resolution and you were here , I think , that was only one of the factors and the biggest factor which - we keep overlooking is that you are the Planning Board and you have to start looking at - what is happening to this Town and mobile homes may be one of the factors . Seme discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , B . Bucko , G . Totman and others . H . Fink : I think - what Roger is trying to say is possibly we look , - -well , actually Frank Liguori ' s sprawl , plan does fall back on the 701 6 - H . Fink : Plan , doesn ' t it ? And I think what Roger is trying to say is don ' t pick out mobile homes as the scapegoat , - -planning is the thing and this is one of the things to consider , zoning is another thing to consider and the Liguori plans , - -whether you adopt his sprawl plan , cluster plan or so forth , - - it ' s all intertwined but I personally feel you have to declare a moratorium on mobile homes because if you don ' t you aren ' t going to have any planning to do because it will already be done for you . Possibly you have to grab the bull by the horns and single out one item and start on the first rung of the ladder . In 1973 there were 9 new homes built in the Town of Groton and 10 in 1974 . R . Gleason : How many homes in 1975 , do you have that ? B . Bucko : One other thing , - - I don ' t have the statistics with me to back this up but the average family in number for a conventional home was 2 and for a mobile home was 3 to 4 , - -now this is also going to have an effect on the school system . G . Totman : Les Graves is a good man to talk on that , - - I ' ve heard him talk on this many times . C . Twigg : I think it ' s a little bit like Mr . Bucko says , - - if we don ' t do something we won ' t have a need for planning anyways . B . Bucko : Roger is right , - -when you go in to the Town Board , when they have their meeting , your comment is " ladies and gentlemen , we are not personally against mobile homes , - -we are concerned with the planning of the Town . Here are the facts and figures and we are concerned about this planning and would like to go ahead and work with the County Planning Board for the development of this Town and would like to have a moratorium declared on mobile homes so we can regroup and come up with a proposal for you . " R . Gleason : That ' s what I ' m trying to say . B . Bucko : But if you are asking for a moratorium you have to have facts and figures . Further discussion was held on this by all present . B . Bucko : What amazed me , - - of all people to say it , - -was Grace LePage . She was in here asking for a subdivision to put three trailers on her property and she made the comment , and it ' s on record , that if she had someone building them across from her place on Lick Street she would be in here fighting against it . And the only reason she got her subdivision approved was because there was a loophole in the zoning ordinance and I ' m going to the Town Board for a resolution to amend this to prohibit it from happening again , but that ' s only a stop gap measure . More discussion was held on this by all present . H . Fink : There were 2 new homes in 1975 . - 7 - G . Totman : I think what we should be doing tonight is putting information together so whoever talks to the Town Board , - -personally I think the group should all be there , - - so the Town Board will know this is the general opinion of the Planning Board as a group , - - and then we go back and try to look at all the problems . R . Gleason : I agree with you George but what I ' m trying to get across is I still think perhaps we have not done enough home work because if someone comes in we have to convince them . How many are in the whole Town of Groton , including the Village ? G . Totman : The Village has passed a law that they can ' t put any more in the Village . H . Fink : Dana , thank you for coming tonight , - - goodnight . D . Snell : 0 . K . , - - goodnight . H . Fink : People have called me on the telephone and cornered me at the Fire Station , - - and the people that have really cornered me are mobile home owners and they say if you enforce this the next move will be to eliminate mobile homes in the Town of Groton and I told them no that ' s not our purpose at all . The biggest problem the people I talked to worry about is that young folks can ' t afford to buy a home so do they live in an apartment or buy a mobile home on signature , or buy a piece of land and move on it . The next thing is that heat and electricity - - minimum for a year is probably $ 100 to heat and they couldn ' t afford to pay a mortgage and upkeep a home as against a mobile home . Taxation was another point . Generally , the average tax is just over $ 100 . $ 100 to $ 150 is the average . G . Totman : And their kids will get the same privileges as yours do . H . Fink : I did talk to a few that were higher . I ' d say 10 people have cornered me on this and also in the other light and I ' m surprised some of them weren ' t here tonight , - - one of them was a little up - set about this subdivision and I told him the time and place to come was tonight at 8 PM but didn ' t turn up . Home owners have also cornered me and offered support at the Town Board meeting if we need it in favor of the moratorium in search of an . answer that they feel is needed so you look at it in any - body ' s light , - -mobile home owners feelsthey are being persecuted and frame dwelling owner feels -he isn ' t getting a fair shake either . More discussion was held on this by H . Fink , C . Twigg , G . Totman and others . C . Twigg In other words we don ' t have what you would call a natural , - - it ' s not natural growth , - - in other words because of rules and regulations that our neighbors have got it ' s affecting us and we ' re getting an influx of trailers that is heavier than - what we normally would have . G . Totman : That might be hard to prove . H . Fink : It ' s the same as if someone wanted to open a junkyard or any other kind of business here , - - it could happen . I ' m not trying to say H . Fink : that mobile homes are in the same category but can - eliminate it and put anything else in there and if you have no regulations will get a fall - off from somewhere else . C . Twigg : In other words , the need for planning is greater now than it has been in past years . H . Fink : The evidence shows it in subdivisions . The Town is definitely growing and if we don ' t lay this out how is it going to be in 10 years from now ? C . Twigg : I like these mobile home parks , Jesse Jacobs ' is a nice park . I don ' t know how they stack up on tax roll , G . Totman : Do better on parks than on individual ones . They tax the park as worth so much money . H . Fink : If we do get involved with this we should give it serious thought and also have professional planners come in to help us . This is going to : put a burden on our backs if it does go through and probably your phone will ring like mine and as I know George ' s has and everywhere you go mobile home owners will think you are trying to remove them from the face of the earth and you try to explain to them that you aren ' t but it will be tough because people will be nasty to you . G . Totman : I think the Ithaca Journal overemphasized what I said that night but if anybody was going to be criticized it ought to be me . I work part time in . a place where I meet hundreds of people . C . Twigg : They aren ' t all sober , though . G . Totman : I haven ' t heard one bit of flak from any of those people and I have only received one phone call telling me that it was bad what we proposed and that guy is already in violation of the present ordinance we have . Some discussion - was held on the moratorium by all present . J . Laiacona : What are we going to do on the 4th ? H . Fink : Now we ' re going to the Town Board meeting on the 4th , With George ' s relationship with the Town Board I make the suggestion that George present it to the Town Board if that ' s agreeable with everyone else , J . Laiacona : I second that motion , G . Totman : Let - me clarify what you ' re saying . I have already presented it to the Town Board , H . Fink : Let me clarify this now , - -present to the Town Board some facts and possibly some visual aids , - - poster or diagram on what we thought of to substantiate the claims we have made , 9 - G . Totman : What Dana gave us tonight , - - 9 homes - 13 mobile homes ; 10 homes - 22 mobile homes , - - I might be able to get some figures like that out of Cortland , Dryden before the 4th . R . Gleason : May I make a suggestion ? You mentioned Liguori , - - one thing you could get out of him is the sprawl map and say look - - here ' s our problem right here , - - this is what we ' re talking about . H . Fink : 0 . K . - - I go along with that . I think at the Town Board meeting - - this has been discussed by George and myself to the Town Board . I ' m not sure what they have thought in between , - - they have tabled it at their last meeting to this August 4th meeting and what you ' re saying George is we go and sit there and if questions are asked we answer them? G . Totman : 0 . K „ - - you want one person to answer the questions if he can , - - 0 . K . H . Fink ; The same fellow that called George also called me and he will be here with bells on with some other mobile home owners and the chances are that some questions will be fired at the Town Board but I ' m not sure they will be recognized , - - - J . Laiacona ; I would suggest George that you , acting as spokesman , - - that maybe you would want to field some of the questions or comments to the other members of the Planning Board . G . Totman ; To make sure everybody is in general consensus ? J . Laiacona : Not only that but that in orderly fashion more than - one voice is heard . I can imagine how the meeting might go , - - some of the questions might be very redundant and if you answer it and I answer it and Cecil answers it , all giving the same answer , it would give the answer a little more weight , G . Totman : It ' s hard to tell what might come up . C . Twigg : I don ' t know though that we need 3 because most of these people that are going to come , - - there;: isn ' t�;anything they can do about it , really . They could influence the Town Board but what they are going to do for the most part is get it off their chest . Some of them , and most of them aren ' t going to have legitimate questions like the guy you said that called you - - he was already in viola - tion , anyway so he was trying to cover up for something where he was in the wrong so really it isn ' t going to make too much difference what answer you give these people , it won ' t satisfy them anyway . So as far as trying to satisfy them that night you aren ' t going to do it . R . Gleason ; I . agree with you on that but I think Joe ' s point is well taken . But it goes back to the article in the Ithaca Journal where George ' s name was mentioned 8 times , - - this way you might have 8 different names mentioned instead , G . Totman ; Like I could answer it and then say is there somebody else on the Planning Board that would like to make a comment . C . Twigg : George is far better equipped to answer these questions than I am . I . don ' t want somebody pointing a finger at me , - . 10 - G . Totman : I could just give someone else the opportunity to do so if they wanted to do it . Some discussion was held on this by all present . H . Fink : The next problem that could happen , - - let ' s say the room is full and people are hanging through windows and coming out of the ceiling , - - you might know the answer , - - it could happen to George , - - and all of a sudden a question hits him that he knows the answer to but gets tongue - tied and you try to answer it and put your foot in your mouth before you get the right words out . When I was at the last Town Board meeting I sat here and George made a point I didn ' t agree with - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - said something that wasn ' t true as far as Planning Board was concerned and I inter - vened , C . Twigg : This is what I mean , - - if we have something to say and George is the spokesman it should be on George ' s O . K . J . Laiacona : The Town Board has the say . G . Totman : If Hicks Dow runs this in the proper form - - - it ' s a Town Board meeting rather than a public hearing , - - they have an agenda and they follow that . A regular Town Board meeting is not held to hear all these people . If people come , fine but they don ' t have to be recognized . H . Fink : So we ' re all in agreement on that . We ' ll let that go until August 4th . If you have any further suggestions get hold of me before the meeting . J . Laiacona : I have some suggestions right now . Two things I .would like to suggest , - - first is that one of the purposes of the moratorium might be to give the Planning Board time to ascertain what the citizenship of Groton wants to do concerning home dwellings . H . Fink : I thought about that same question and sometimes when you ' re out in the public the answer will be it ' s mobile homes , - - is that the kind of question you want ? sections J . Laiacona : We ' re talking about planning/ for the Town of Groton , - -O , K , you can take the section up on top of Sovocool Hill where I live or Peruville Road , Locke Road or 222 , - -O . K , now I have a hunch that my neighbors , who are generally the larger farms in the area from what I can figure out - - I think that to a man my neighbors want to keep it big farms , no subdivisions or trailers in their neighbor - hood , - -O . K , and they have their reasons as farmers and businessmen why it should be that way . Perhaps people in Peruville recognize having a smaller community and don ' t care if it ' s subdivided - - if we can somehow find out where some of these preferences are that may help us plan - - that this area is going to be expensive homes , - - this is going to be trailer parks , - - this is going to be medium in- tensity and so on . G . Totman : You have a good point there , H . Fink : There ' s a point there but you say where you live they don ' t - want ' H Fink : any subdivisions but they are not the population of the Town , but now let ' s say you live on Peruville Road , - - now Mrs . Grace LePage won ' t - want more in there . Some discussion was held on this by all present . C . Twigg made a motion that the meeting be adjourned which was seconded by J . Laiacona and the motion was carried . The meeting adjourned at 10 to 10 P . M , R pectfully submitted , Jo ephine Bell An envelope was left at the Town Hall with the following notation on it : "J . Bell ( spelled Ball ) please add these to the minutes of the meetings . Thank you . J . Laiacona 898 - 5789 " - the envelope contained the following hand - - written notations : reconvened at 10 : 30 RG moved to accept Mr . Riese ' s subdivision . CT ' seconded . Unanamous vote of approval . HF to send County Planner a map + will notify Mr . Riese of our decision . at that time . RG moved to adjourn , GT seconded Meeting adjourned at 10 # 35 PM J . LAIACONA - 12 -