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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1975-06-11 GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD HEARING HELD AT THE TOWN HALL , GROTON , NEW YORK , WEDNESDAY , JUKE 11 , 1975 - - 8 : 30 P . M . Present : H . Fink - Chairman* OTHERS PRESENT : G . Totman - Vice -Chairman* D . Chase* R . Wright* D . Payne* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* R . Gleason* Be Bucko* - Town Attorney D . Snell - Zoning Officer* - Denotes those present . Mr . Fink read aloud the Notice of the Public Hearing for Robert Wright ' s minor subdivision which was pub - lished in the Journal and Courier on June 2 , 1975 , a copy of which is attached hereto and made a part of these minutes . H . Fink : Seeing that we have no members of the general public here whatsoever , - 4 - 4 H . Fink : I think we should hear from our members . Do you have any questions to ask Bob ? Be Bucko : That shaded part is your second map , right ? B . Wright : Yes , we are applying for 1 , 2 and 3 . Be Bucko : These 3 are not included in that . G . Totman : Our concern is just 1 , 2 and 3 . Be Bucko : And 4 because it was sold . Be Wright : 4 is off the map . R . Gleason : 0 . K. , - - this is the question I brought up last time . On another one we had it in . Be Bucko : The other maps that you had had that in there . On the Stinehours you are including the one that was sold plus the one he is going to sell and the other 2 are not included . On this one he includes Tichenor ' s lot with the 3 lots he is proposing now . R . , Gleason : It isn ' t here . Be Bucko : It was on the other map , wasn ' t it ? Be Wright : I wasn ' t aware that that one had to be included . Be Bucko : It ' s on the same tract . D . Payne : When was it sold ? Be Wright : About a year ago . G . Totman : Where is that in relation to the lot down below ? Be Bucko : Wait a minute , - - that ' s Tichenor ' s you ' re including it in this parcel so it has to be included , - - it has to be included , - - it gives you the maximum of 4 . H . Fink : Did you survey that lot when you sold it . Be Wright : Yes , Be Bucko : Make a condition he bring in survey of that lot and show it on this one . In other words break it like that and show it . G . Totman : Let me ask a question . As long as we have to go by the book and have that included in there . After all deliberations tonight , except for that '- lot not being on the map and after everybody asks all the questions they want to and we are ready to make a decision , can we approve it on the condition that this be added to this map or do we have to have another public hearing ? B : Bucko : In other words you can say you have asked all your questions but he ' s failed to meet one requirement and any approval is on condition that he correct the map , - - - 5 - G . Totman : And we make approval subject to correction of the map . Be Bucko : If you notice the notice on this hearing says on the east is Gleason so Tichener is over there and this is Gleason:. .oVer here , - -you can condition . G . Totman : That makes more sense , - - so long as there ' s nothing . creating a problem . Be Bucko : The problem would be if the notice says on the east Tichenor , - - G . Totman : Then it would be 0 . K . Be Bucko : When I drew up the notice I was under the impression that Tichenor ' s lot was going to be in it so I took your easterly boundary here including Tichenor so he has to put Tichenor ' s lot on there which is no problem and approval can be conditioned on that . G . Totman : May I see the application . Be Bucko : The only question I have is everybody , including Bob , clear on that right of way ? That right of way is for your own private use . Be Wright : Yes , for the private use of the land behind . G . Totman : It can be used for nothing else . H . Fink : Any health department problems on this , Ben ? Be Bucko : No , he has ' the layouts . It ' s all approved then . Be Wright : All 6 lots are approved . H . Fink : 0 . K. , any further questions ? G . Totman : I don ' t really see any problems at all except for not having that sketch map there . We have discussed this with Bob before . Be Wright : Should I bring it back to you or Harvey ? Be Bucko : Either way , Harvey will be in to see me . Be Wright ; How many copies ? Be Bucko : Five . Be Wright : Thank you very much . Mr . Fink closed this hearing at 8 : 45 P . M. H . Fink : Now back to our regular meeting . Mrs . LePage is here and we asked her many questions at our last meeting . I have talked to Ben since our last meeting and he informs me that in the mobile home ordinance , mobile home subdivision is not defined in the zoning ordinance so even with the placement of a mobile home has no bearing on the subdivision itself so we have to look at this as a minor subdivision . Now at Me 6 - H . Fink : this time :.- do the members have any questions for Mrs . LePage . D . Chase : Did you request her to come back tonight ? H . Fink : It ' s mutual , - - she wants an answer , - - last time we kind of left her up in the air . She made an application for a minor subdivision and we postponed her until tonight . B . Bucko : She is entitled to a public hearing . D . Chase : Which this is not , I understand ? H . Fink : No , but through this tonight we ' ll set a date for a public hearing . B . Bucko : You ' re not being treated special , - - everybody has to have a public hearing . G . LePage : I know that but you don ' t hold one if the Board doesn ' t approve it . H . Fink : We don ' t approve or disapprove it until after the public hearing . It - would be after the public hearing , - -within 45 days of that hearing we would have to notify you of our decision . B . Bucko : I think it was left that I was going to talk with her attorney and I have discussed it with her attorney and she is entitled to a hearing and the Board listens to all the facts and also any objections from neighbors which have to be taken into considera- tion and then the Board makes their decision after that . H . Fink : This is the timeinEor Board members to bring up anything further they might want to ask that we didn ' t ask Mrs . LePage before and after this we ' ll set a date for the public hearing and go on from there . D . Chase : We can assume that after the last meeting and tonight ' s no changes have been made in her maps . B . Bucko : Is that correct ? G . LePage : Your definition of mobile home subdivision says " . . . . . . for sale to the public . . . . . " - - mine will not be - - they will be gifts to my children , - - they are not for sale to the public , - - that ' s your definition . D . Chase : We can assume they might sell them to the public . G . LePage : No , - - it will be in the deeds that they will not . G . Totman : What happens if you should die - - then they can do what they want with them? G . LePage : Yes , B . Bucko : But as long as you ' re alive they cannot sell them to anybody else . G . LePage : That ' s right . B . Bucko : Let ' s say that , - - I ' m talking hypothetically , - -what if one of them decides not to live there any more , - - you ' re going to continue with the mobile home ? 7 - G . LePage : I ' ll buy back from that child . B . Bucko : And thenlIt will be rented out ? G . LePage : No , I don ' t think so . B . Bucko : Make sure it ' s in the deed if it ' s going to be approved , that should be a condition of it . G . LePage : I think it should still be available as a subdivision but I wouldn ' t want to convert it to a trailer park . B . Bucko : As far as a minor subdivision is concerned , that ' s all they are go - ing to be concerned about but they can make it a condition of grant - ing that subdivision on the conditions you put in . Do you follow me ? G . LePage : Yes . D . Chase : Can - we take one more look at those maps , Harvey ? H . Fink : Sure . B . Bucko : Do you want Lot No . 4 approved too or do you want just the 3 ? G . LePage : It ' s already there , - - I don ' t know what your policy would be . G . Totman : This is automatically , - -parcel 4 comes with that . That ' s where she is going to live . D . Chase : Do we need Board of Health approval on these ? H . Fink : Being on a State highway we have to go to the county before we give approval . B . Bucko : When you get the public notice for this hearing , send one to Frank Liguori and also the State Environmental Protection people . H . Fink : If they don ' t give negative or positive that gives their approval . B . Bucko : The County Planning Board has 30 days to approve or disapprove , - - you don ' t have to take their recommendation though you can still approve it . D . Chase : Don ' t we have to have Board of Health approval like on - the others ? R . Gleason : Didn ' t you say you had these ? G . LePage : He should have sent them to Harvey before now . H . Fink : He hasn ' t sent them to me . G . LePage : He said he would just send you the results of the perc tests . B . Bucko : They have taken the position they won ' t do anything on minor sub - divisions and as long as - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -will have to comply with the - - - - - - - - - - - H . Fink : 0 . K . - 8 - G . Totman : They have already done it for her . H . Fink : But the map does not show it , - -we have to have a statement from someone . On the map we take engineer sl but on this particular map it doesn ' t show anything . Some discussion was held on this by all present . G . Totman : On page 32 , paragraph c , 521c "all . . . . . . . . . shall be stated on the plat and signed by a licensed engineer . . . . . " H . Fink : That ' s what we ' re missing . G . LePage : I ' ll call him in the morning . G . Totman : But he has taken them ? G . LePage : Yes . They hesitate to recommend what kind of septic systems , - -will give results but don ' t give recommendations as to septic systems any more so he told me . B . Bucko : Is this Fisher you talked to ? G . LePage : Yes . D . Chase : I was under the impression that they set guidelines and rules as to what type of septic systems you use . G . Totman : She said they told her would have to have a dry well ; and septic tank on this one , - - if it hadn ' t come out right she would have had to put in sand filters . D . Snell : Does she have to have perc test on each one ? B . Bucko : Yes . If she came inihere without testing those and the Board approved 4 lots and she sold them and person applied for permit and it didn ' t meet specifications she ' s stuck and has to come back with new maps . That ' s what they have to do . H . Fink : Does she have to get another test on this third lot ? G . LePage : Not until my daughter wants to move there . B . Bucko : That ' s right and if she asks for approval of the lots in those dimensions and then she goes and applies for sewer system from the Health Department and lot is not big enough she ' s stuck . D . Chase : Did I understand that the third lot has not had perc test on it ? G . LePage : No , it did not . B . Bucko : Your requirement is that the Health Department regulations are to be met but it ' s not up to you to determine whether they are met at this present time . It ' s up to the land owner to check his land and his soil to see if it is suitable for the size lots that he wants and if you approve the map and he ' s stuck that ' s too bad . It ' s nothing that you did . You told him to go out and get perc tests . G . Totman : What you ' re saying is if we approve this after the public hearing - 9 - G . Totman : and she doesn ' t have perc test here and later she wants to sell this • third one she has to comply with the Health Department regulations so that if we approve it the way it ' s being presented it ' s up to Mrs . LePage to go to the Health Department , or whoever buys the land , and get their approval and if it doesn ' t comply they ' ll be stuck . D . Chase : I can ' t understand , - -how we can approve a subdivision if all the lots do not meet requirements . G . LePage : It doesn ' t say that each lot has to have individual perc test . D . Chase : I thought we established each one individually had to have one . G . LePage : No , just the perc test on subdivision . D . Chase : If that ' s all , - -no problems at all . B . Bucko : On major subdivisions you have to . . D . Payne : That ' s a different story . D . Chase : If the Health Department worked from the same map we ' re looking at , - - that ' s all we have to be concerned with? H . Fink : As long as Ben has clarified us on .this point we ' re just missing a letter from the Health Department . G . LePage : I ' ll call him in the morning . I wish I ' d known he hadn ' t complied . H . Fink : Any further questions ? 0 . K. Mrs . LePage I think we should set a date for the public hearing for you and also one for Mr . and Mrs . Stinehour who were here earlier this evening and hold them like the ones tonight two in one evening . How about 2 weeks from tonight June 25th ? B . Bucko : I ' ll have the notices prepared for you . G . Totman : One minute now , - -we only have a 5 member board so better make sure enough come to have a quorum because I can ' t make it that night . B . Bucko : Better make it for Thursday June 26th 8 P . M . for Mrs . LePage and 8 : 30 P . M . for Mr . and Mrs . Stinehour , G . LePage : At that hearing if there are no objections , you would then give me an answer ? H . Fink : Within 45 days , - - in your case we have to send notice to the County and the Environmental people so if they give me an answer by then , then we could vote on it . G . LePage : Do you have to hold the public hearing first ? B . Bucko : No they just give them notice . H . Fink : So 30 days from today would have to go by that , - -we could as a board if everything came back with the stamp of approval and we sat down afterwards and voted on it , - -we could notify you that night or the next day . - 10 - r GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD PUBLIC HEARING Held at the Town Hall , Groton , N . Y . Wednesday , June 11 , 1975 8 * 03 PM PRESENT : H . Fink - Chairman* OTHERS PRESENT : G . Totman - Vice -Chairman* D . Payne* R . Gleason* D . Chase* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* E . Stinehour* B . Bucko* - Town Attorney* J . Stinehour* D . Snell - Zoning Officer* * - Denotes those present . Mr . Fink read aloud the Notice of the Public Hearing for Roger Gleason for a minor subdivision which was published in the r Journal and Courier on June 2 , 1975 , a copy of which is attached and made a part of these minutes . H . Fink : Are there any questions from the floor on Mr . Gleason ' s subdivision application ? Hearing none , do the members of the Board have any questions for Roger ? D . Chase : No . D . Payne : No . H . Fink : We ' ve covered this at a previous meeting but just thought there might be some 1ast . minute questions . G . Totman : I think when Roger presented it at our last Board meeting , the answers were given by Roger and this public hearing is for the public - - anything for or against . H . Fink : Alright , I will now close this hearing . B . Bucko : You should develop the record , - - you accepted the plans and the plans are part of the hearing . H . Fink : We did accept the plans at a previous meeting . B . Bucko : I think it should show that the plans are considered here . H . Fink : Have you got that down , Josephine ? J . Bell : . Yes , H . Fink : 0 . K . , - - Mr . Gleason we will notify you within. 45 days . ( The hearing closed at 8 : 08 PM) H . Fink : The next public hearing is scheduled for 8 : 30 PM so until then may - be we could hear what Mr . and Mrs . Stinehour have to say . - 1 - B . Bucko : Ernie Stinehour here has dropped off all these plans . Ernie , do you have your $ 20 . 00 ? E . Stinehour : Yes . (Mr . Stinehour gave Mr . Fink the required fee . ) B . Bucko : Harvey came up , after one of your meetings and talked to me about this one . I ' m not representing Ernie but will tell you what he is doing there and that is based on information on what Harvey said and also what ' s in the regulations . He ' s applying for a minor subdivision . This one has already been sold and he wants to sell this one and here is the survey of that particular lot and these two he has laid out for future development if he wants to sell them , - but - those would be the next ones he would sell - - 300 ft . frontage here , here and here and on Salt Road 463 ft . , - - those would be 463 ft , too . G . Totman : What we are looking at tonight , - - is these 2 ? B . Bucko : Actually putting in all 4 under a minor subdivision . G . Totman : Oh , - - O . K . R . Gleason : Is this just informal ? B . Bucko : No , he ' s filing this for you to set up a public hearing . R . Gleason ; One question , - - this has been sold already and is it necessary in setting up a minor subdivision , - -would this have to be included in it or not? B . Bucko : Yes , that makes the fourth lot . R . Gleason : Actually this makes the second , - - these aren ' t sold ? B . Bucko : No , they are in the future - - instead of putting just 2 down and filing _ another one for 2 more to meet his maximum of 4 he put the 4 in now . R . Gleason : This is what we would file with the County , with the lots in it . B . Bucko : Yes . The second one is of cloth , that is what would be filed in the County Clerk ' s office if it ' s approved . D . Payne : Neither one of these lots have been surveyed ? B . Bucko : No , but laid out so they would comply . This would be 300 and that would be 400 so the depth would be the same . D . Chase : Hard to believe , - - this line is going on an angle here . B . Bucko : It varies because there ' s a dirt road so he went through the center line up there , - - Stauber Road is not a straight line . D . Payne : If he sold those lots when would he be required to come back ? B . Bucko : At the hearing , - - public hearing , - - could have these lots surveyed and laid out exactly and then file it . - 2 - G . Totman : It ' s a requirement that all lots of the tract , - - H . Fink : Can ' t do it that way . At the public hearing ? B . Bucko : No before the public hearing . For the time being approve that first lot , then . R . Gleason : I ' m just questioning right now , is all . If he files it that way then he ' ll be assessed for these . G . Totman : He ' s going to sell them . Looking at it from the standpoint of the Town Attorney if we went ahead and approved this without that how can you approve it if it isn ' t surveyed ? B . Bucko : You can approve the 2 . R . Gleason : Then he would come in for another minor ? B . Bucko : When ::he sells those , could come in and have them surveyed now . E . Stinehour : What do we have to do to get the other two ? B . Bucko : File an application . In other words may sell 22 instead of 4 so file another application for another $ 20 and add it to the bill for the cost of the land when you sell it . G . Totman : 0 . K . once we take care of any questions , will have to set up another public hearing date . H . Fink : Any further questions ? G . Totman : We pretty much went over this same thing with Mr . and Mrs . Stine - hour before . H . Finkl I would rather wait on setting the date for the public hearing at this moment until later in the evening because we have another subdivision application coming in this evening and would like to set them both up together . G . Totman : I don ' t really have any more questions , from what we asked before . Everything is in order from what I see right now , for applying for a subdivision for these 2 lots and calling a public hearing for it but not in order to hold one on the other 2 . H . Fink : Have the members seen this application ? There ' s restrictions on the property , - -no trailers and no houses under $ 20 , 000 , B . Bucko : In fact there ' s a guy interested in buying the corner lot Ernie tells me that wants to put up a $40 , 000 to $ 50 , 0000 home : H . Fink : Well Mr . and Mrs . Stinehour you ' re welcome to stay but if you would like to leave I can call you later this evening when we establish the time and date for the Public Hearing . I think the Board is pleased and understands what ' s in front of us . E . Stinehour : I ' d just as soon leave . J . Stinehour : Thank you . YThe Stinehours left at 8 : 20 PM) . 3 - H . Fink : I talked to Dana the other day on Joe Hora . Dana tells me that his parcels - were sold prior to the zoning ordinance . I understand all the permits that were issued were issued before April 1972 . G . Totman : We didn ' t have permits back then , B . Bucko : No building permits but as far as health requirements were concerned and so forth . H . Fink : So if Dana ' s information is correct , we have no problem on that . The previous ones are not our problem , B . Bucko : 00 K . but you want to make sure he is laying it out properly from now on , H . Fink : Last week I attended a seminar at Cornell University on planning and zoning . Ben was supposed to go and I was but he couldn ' t make it ; Ben gave me his tape recorder and I taped just about the whole thing , George and I .went to one in New York City last winter and it was just about the same , - - in fact they were the same people as the ones at Cornell . It was a good program . I picked up a few points that I missed at New York City and Ben suggested since I got it all on tape that we sit down and listen to it some time and we could also invite the Town Board and possibly the Appeals Board . We could set up a date in the future to listen to the tapes , B . Bucko : Get a case of beer and sit around and listen . Let ' s see how they turned out , - -we have a few minutes yet . (Mr . Bucko played the tape briefly and it was quite clear and audible : ) H . Fink : I think we should listen to them some time , They are worthwhile ,