Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout1975-04-08 It t MINUTES OF TFIT. ME" E ING .OF THE CROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD t el.d at the Town Hall , Groton , New York Thursday , April. 8 , 1976 - 8 : 20 P qM . PRESENT . lie Fink - Chairman* G . Totman Vice -Chairman% D . Payne* J . Laiacona* Co Twigg%t F . Wilson* R . Gleason J . Bell Recording Clerk* Denotes those present . Mr . Fink called the meeting , to order at 8 : 30 P .M . H . Fink : Just to make : a note- Ori March 28th , I think it was at 2 P .M , the members :- of the • qxaton' 'Town Planning Board reviewed the Town by automobile . ' ::- We <t 4. ook ' in a vast . area of West Groton and also the northeast ,� lcoriier .:of the towna That ' s just for informa- I believe we have . all r' lAd'this , - - George Totman has made a 1; .,. . presentation with reas'6 s " or theories why we ' re discussing this and possibly this isY. domewhat of an answer to the problem . G . Totman : This thing I drew up ,, = A.h hope that I understood it , - - that we , - - the way I drew it up', ,;, :s. ., :the way I felt we left the last meeting and I merely put in. writing what we discussed so it would speed things up for this meet ugo All I did was add to it why we did what we did at ' thq,,,lmeeting and I present it tonight for people to look at , tee,,,with , or maybe make changes , or come up with something , bet°ter�o . . -If not , I think we should move on it because the Town Board=- "are - looking for us to make our presenta- tion to them the first1par' t of May so they will have time to work on it . Once , x&; ,have ;"decided where trailers are going we have to spend some . t iad-'Ate a meeting or two deciding on what conditions are going- " n`",i'hose spots , - -what is going to be allowed for setbacks , skirting '-and . all that sort of thing so don ' t feel we have time to keep talking about where they have to go , - -we have to make a decision . Olt - J . Laiacona : Doesn ' t this problem ; in effect , just allow mobile homes in the southwest corner of Grot n ? G . Totman : Out there , - -Yes , - that ' s right . J . Laiacona : Doesn ' t that exclude them from the northeast corner ? e 1, Tot fil�tl14 Y. c.. 4 , _ - we� l. l :i. t mentions that norkh,cast corner , - _what clidn. ' t show up or). the map is the yellow . C colored those . We were a sug;geSHJI )} ; , as we felt the other night , that would be an. area that they would look at 3:f they felt they needed more rornn than the southwest corner . This would be a possibility over here in. our opinion but , }is a first step , :Celt that that would be the most: logical. place . '11 . Fink : We have to do something; , - -hopefully we ' ll. with the 'Gown Board in the month of April andpresent it . G `„ Totman : I ' d like to sec some discussion on it , maybe someone else has something; better. . •J . Laiacona : The only discussi. oxx .- I• have is that I went to the maps to find out where the land was and I would just like to have a minute to show you . what I found . I got the soil map of the Town of Groton and I went through - - now perhaps someone here can do ~ a. better job than I did . Taking the soil survey for Tompkins County I went through a survey of soils called Table 14 In- terpretation of Engineering Properties ' of Soils and going through all the soils ' t'hat are listed in Tompkins County I found those soils that were -- listed with the engineering properties that I felt were best suited for housing and . I thought that were for building foundations ,:and infiltration systems and then I went through all the ' soils-- and found those that were useable for building foundations- :and useable for septic tanks which is what you would want to h4ye` wl ere you would put' your house obviously and I found out of7;Tl�Oonit know how many soils were listed , - - I found 12 soil types that ,.. in one way or another are suitable for housing . They are' not ,:all. exactly the same but they are basically - - - - - - - - - - kinds o soils with an acceptable water level and that drain fairly quicklys o ' that your septic tank will work and is the . kind you can dig int6_'; And also that has grades that are permissible to build on so thaV, rules out any of your very , very steep hills and then I came up w tIh the - - - - - you go to the map finding those 12 soil types in the tr:_Town of Groton and I did this and outlined them in green . Those;` �gjreen areas are the soils that are best suited for building :'hptries and mobile homes on . This is the Cayuga County Line , Lansin& hle , Peruville- Lansing , this is the east side and this is the. west side of the Town . 11 . rink : This would be McLean , w ld J . Laiacona : That ' s McLean . D . Payne : I don ' t think you ° re talking mobile homes , as much as homes . Y . J . Laiacona : But they do require , septic • systems . Do Payne : All homes require septic systems but mostly sand filtersare required . J . Laiacona : According to this , these grounds will take septic systems . ^. 2 . G . Totman : Yes , - - but the laws have changed ., - -when - was - that book put out ? You ' re looking at the ideal conditions ., - •« if you 're looking at the patterns of growth it hasn ' t followed the ideal conditions . J . Laiacona : George , - - take the book home and find soils to put mobile homes on I went down the . list , Some discussion wars held on this , by: .G . _ Totman , J . Laiacona anal others ; H . Fink : Before we go any. further , - - Roger dia you read this here ? And Cecil have you ? G . Totman : I think what Joe . has done is great because this is what we are always talking about , = -we don 't have these overlays and we should take these ' and put them on • myloc but I don ' t really believe that at this particular time we have time now to go pick over the soils and this kind of thing tomake : our decision on the mobile homes . For ', one. thing , people aren ' t looking at that sort of thing , - - they are buying where they can get the land but this is what we ' lhneed when we gopover . the overall ordinance because once we get °the mobile home • situation out of our hands and into the Town ' 'Board ' s- hands then we have to go back and study the whole ordinance , • which the Town Board asked us to do over a year ago and these are the sort. of things we ' ll need for that . ; ; . . But now they are Aooking for us to come up with a written pre - pared proposal byxthe first of May so they can discuss it at their meeting , ,, r w , . . •. J . Laiacona : I guess the only ,recommendation that I had to make after doing this , - - is perhaps' '�there are some soils I left out so this area could be increase ..'; • I '.,don ' t think so , - - I tried to be very liberal in picking =,- soifs but have to admit I have to cast a dissenting vote as . .the :area we picked for mobile homes will be more concentrated �,,and , therefore has to be a better area to withstand larger population for septic and sewer systems so , therefore , it shouldf'L be on soils that are for that and to put them out here ,-or. :° 'over here is basically unrealistic - - the land will not takeitk � L + G . Totman : Fine . F . Wilson : What you are doing'; P=certainly we can ' t put them right around here and there ' s _v'Oo,t 'enough area in this corner to do it and if you ' re proposing %we put them over here that will take the best land we have : iri the -township , D , Payne : Which is already heavily populated . G , Totman : You want to preserve •• that . J , Laiacona : You want to preserve it for housing for two reasons , - - it ' s , best able _ .. G , Totman : I agree but what kind of population ? J . Laiacona : And it ' s going to be - closest to acne , , to public highways so J . .Laiacona : they can move to wherever they want- to go , } F . Wilson : What you are proposing is to . allow people with low tax -base to live there and take away the good tax. base . J . Laiacona : Obviously this is suitable . We . are all living on it * Tt ' s suitable because of the low density of population which - - - - My 12 acres will handle one septic tank so , therefore , can. put one house on it. with lots of land .around it which is basically what is happening and that , to me , if what you are talking about ; - - - conventional homes , - s.ny land can handle that but when you are talking about taking one section and putting all your mobile homes there then you . are going to have problems and- II ' m saying if we are going to take a section unsuitable for population and put all mobile homes there we should just eliminate them entirely . G . Totman : We ' re not trying . to encourage mobile homes , - -we ' re trying to discourage them a little bit and if you take your prime land you are defeating your purpose in the first place . J . Laiacona : But what you are doing is , - -you ' re telling people they have a place to put mobile ° homes when it ' s not the place to put them , R . Gleason : But you ' re saying on large lots . _ The point Joe is making , there ' s people who . need low cost housing and are we providing an area for low cost housing . If not we have to provide something else . G . Totman : At the last meeting `, rbefore we went home , made motion on the land we are going . ,to . set aside and now we ' re starting all over again and if we go� �ihis route will leave tonight with nothing solid and can study- it for the next 3 months and the moratorium is going to be off :: in September . F . Wilson : It ' s a fact that .you could have as many mobile homes in this area if you put the. proper type of septic system in . There ' s no doubt about that� and it ' s a fact can put modulars in there , tone e Some discussion -..' a'A_i`,:hild on this by all present , l H . Fink : Before we go any ' fuither , I tend to agree with George a little bite I think we ,Have „ the pros and cons and . possibly 7 ideas . but I think - - - - - - - are pushing conventional homes �'and , in my opinion , we would possibly want the majority or large, growth of people living here to go to live in conventional .homes in the better soils of the town be cause whether it ! s. �a , mobile home , modular , or conventional home , it still requires aseptic system but I think we have to take issue , - - - the meeting so far sounds like the last . 3 or 4 meetings to me and I would ' like to see our board come to some decision to - night where we wanttto place them . G . Totman : We already have a motion passed on that . - 4 - I inlc : And p.1g ed unanimotasly . I ' think : everybody was here . 00 K . ; Geor.. ge has made a. proposal which covers ibis . oG . Totman : I. think I wrote it up to follow that motion , F . Wilson : There has been one change , -we were going to use the northeast corner , George . D . Payne * Right , We specified two areas at that time . G . Totman : 0 . K . . but there y4s some thought thAt it could be a possible alternative so that ' s. how I wrote it up . F . Wilson : I think- we should , commend Joe on what he did on this . G . Totman : Yes , that is great, D . Payne : I think it can be used in more than . one situation . G . Totman : We should go . to - the Town Board and . get them to let us spend some money to . put these on the right kind of overlays so we can keep them ,. • 1 _ H . Fink : I agree . Co Twigg : They allowed us-,u$ 1 , 000 , didn ' t they ? _ H . Fink : That was for the moratorium . Ik G . Totman : They have • other. money set aside , C . Twigg : How much would ; this ' cost ? G . Totman : He did this , •and;:.others , that would help us greatly when we are working on `�tii'' whole ordinance . F . Wilson : I would like tli6� iiext order of business to be whether or not we are going to : exclude that corner . H . Fink : Any discussion . ,. ;'George ' s proposal ? F . Wilson : Yes , - - I would " lake ; to , - - I ' m sure , - -with all due respect to George , - - I think `,*', ought to present this as promptly as possible and • George."might have to change some thoughts here . In the second paragraph , something puzzles me there , - - "Not only was • tliere . a large influx of . . . . . . . . " . . I don ' t , understand what - yov - are saying . G . 'Totman : I ' m talking ab8u' t" the whole town now . What I ' m saying is we are getting; = -;the percentage of the two is greater in mobile homes and"..because of this Dana is having a hard time enforcing - the rules we have . They are ambiguous in places , - - - - - - - - - - - - they can go : anywheres if they meet certain requirements and there ' s no - 5 - ,.iP .t4 ti . ar. . f. . i .r, AY twY r t r, r�S C�r .r. 'i( ' f �. ., w.:. r. .,:,k;. .. . > ' It, xp 7� G . Totman : way of controlling where they are going so the Town Board looked at it and decided to stop them from coming in until { we could redo the ordinance . That was what I was saying in that one sentence . ' F F . Wilson : You ' re relating your remarks as it pertains to mobile homes ? "i G . Totman : Yes , - - everything referenced in here is referenced for mobile r homes , F . Wilson : On page 2 you say "Therefore it is recommended . . . . . . . " and then you have something about 1040 feet , I don ' t think we Nil agreed to that ? R . Gleason : That whole thing , - - ,. w F . Wilson : I ' m talking about square footage but how did we get 1000 ft . east of Route 38 ? H . Fink : Because it ' s low intensity all the way through . R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - - if anybody just reading this who didn ' t know that , - - there ought to be some references . D . Payne : This is for presentation to the Town Board only . f F . Wilson : I think that might be 500 ft . as it stands. now I ' m not sure . G . Totman : Let ' s change that , then , - - you ' re right , there ' s something wrong with that . Some discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , J . Laiacona , H . Fink , C . Twigg , F . Wilson and G . Totman on the footage . J . Laiacona : Why are you allowing mobile homes in commercial areas ? F . Wilson : That regulation may exclude them , - - does anybody know ? D . Payne : Yes , J . Laiacona : It says : " all areas east of . . . . . . " G . Totman : Does the regular ordinance allow mobile homes in commercial areas ? . H . Fink : Yes , G . Totman : I don ' t care , - - just word it so we can do it the way we made the motion . More discussion was held on this by all present . F . Wilson : 0 . K . , - - so how do you want to word it , George? G . Totman : Therefore it is recommended that mobile homes will not be allowed in areas east of Route 38 in the Town of Groton . 6 - C t7 �" Tk ° . �F` 'f6„ roAf. •"._. . _: e •• :Li i. . ,. _ .. .J .. r . ._...._ :i :. . — L., .....,.. a..tt, . il4.,.t. ,.u,t.:. w i r 4 Put on the last page what you ' re saying H . Fink : We ' ll get this done id and that we ' ll be studying the whole ordinance for the whole tom , - - all phases of it and will come back with recommendations ' within 12 or 24 months . G . Totman : They are expecting us to come up with something . k . H . Fink : You can put on there , George , that we will look at the whole ordinance again . R . Gleason : We need professional help and need to do the thing , - - « a j H . Fink : We can do something like that but let ' s finish this up . Either we agree to it or we don ' t . R F . Wilson : Shall we eliminate that paragraph , George ? The second paragraph on page 2 ? i ! G . Totman : Yes . • F . Wilson : Are we all done with page 2 and on page 3 now? H . Fink : Continue Fred , F . Wilson : 0 . K . the second paragraph on page 3 is repetitious . R . Gleason : Excuse me , - - did you decide to leave that paragraph on Lick Street in ? There ' s another ambiguity there , . . . - -how far north of 222 ? F . Wilson : It must be right up to it . R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - -but what about Lick Street ? G . Totman : Should be 1000 ft . north of Route 222 . Further discussion was held on this by F . Wilson , R . Gleason , G . Totman and others . F . Wilson : On page 3 , the second paragraph , - - I think we have eliminated the need for that when we said we are only going to have mobile homes in this one certain area , - - O . K . ? J . Laiacona : On the bottom of page 2 it says : "The above described land being rural in nature lends itself . . . . . " I think that , according to the soil , that statement is erroneous and I want to go on record as saying that . G . Totman : I ' m not saying the soil is right or anything else , - - that ' s where they are putting them . J . Laiacona : But I think , as a town planner , you sliould take that into considera - tion . C . Twigg : I do , too . R . Gleason : If we go to a public hearing and someone is smart and hires a law- yer , I don ' t think we have a leg to stand on . - 7 - _ . . . - -a: ..ar..nn ,:rv;.=,.. • . . a rc n r i ak l �s �41w � i y . I'. ' I r rr ) y" w41..r`iad' r +iR ri r is4 .. t a ?wT . . W r . ! , i &w xY7}wE, a... c .. ..... ..,C .. ....,..Fl S,_t,..�.. _. .� ...,.. _. . < .`.�:.i.to•v� *� ,ti ..Y.7't? '; An.3k s: k r ' G . Totman ; We can eliminate them completely if we want to . , . J . Laiacona : Alright , then , do that . Some discussion was held on this by all . =i G . Totman ; The whole thing , behind this whole thing , is that we are getting too many mobile homes and now you ' re saying let ' s make it avail - able for mobile homes and we ' re getting away from the whole point . H . Fink ; Would it be alright with everybody if we said : "The above des - cribed land . . . , . " , - -would you be willing to delete that sentence ? .f { C . Twigg : I think that George is right , in a way , the above described land tY being rural in nature appears to be the place to have this kind jof dwelling because that is what is there - - - but it certainly can t , - - - there are dense population , - -but that is not what George is saying and I don ' t think there will be dense population and I think that is why he says it ' s for trailers because they are there now . Not that the land itself is particularly adapted to } it , 7 H . Fink : Oe K . , - - then the second sentence explains it , then . i t F . Wilson : Do you want to take the first sentence out ? t G . Totman : I don ' t care . More discussion was held on this by all present . F . Wilson : I ' ll make a motion that we recommend to the Town Board that mobile homes be allowed in the area described on page 2 , last paragraph , of George ' s proposal and I further make a motion that we accept George ' s presentation in concept . D . Payne ; I second the motion . H . Fink ; Any discussion ? All in favor ? D . Payne - Aye - C . Twigg - Aye - F . Wilson - Aye G . Totman - Aye - R . Gleason - Nay J . Laiacona - Nay . H . Fink : So voted . O . K . , - - I wish we could have all be in agreement but we ' re not . G . Totmane We have a lot to discuss . H . Fink : Cecil , would you like to ask your question ? Co Twigg : It ' s regarding temporary housing , - - say like there ' s a fire or sometimes a farmer takes on a hired man and is going to build a house for him the next summer or a guy buys a plot of land and wants to move on it and buys a $ 1 , 000 trailer to move into while he is building his house . This is for temporary housing , - - not necessarily disaster- type housing but a lot of people like to build their own houses and i'f they have a well or septic system they could hook a trailer onto it for say a year or 8 - f ': +k .._� : .�. ; .v »o- dPS,`� �,:N4:.7� ;� � . !ra�'�,�"1°..: t,8h�.so 'krl "a ',� i�, ..r . . ri _.._ 1 . P.,rc!. r ..e.- k . ',tiw.a>Prs; �S i? eL �+MtiaP..5 ';',.5.'EQS aet 1 l Y Co Taigg : whatever time it takes them to build their house . Some discussion was held on this point by all . - H . Fink : Could Cecil ' s idea be incorporated ? G , Totman : I don ' t know . I can see the merit in having some energency type housing available and its covered in the regular zoning ordinance for various things that happen in case of fire , - - it ' s also in the present moratorium but I really don ' t comprehend how our Town , from past experiences , can enforce something after say a year and tell them: to move out . Now it is legal and has been done in other areas but not in this Town . I ' m not against what you ' re saying , - - I think it has merit . But once they are in they can come up with 101 reasons why they are going to stay there . Further discussion was held on this by all present . J . Laiacona : I ' d like to make a motion that the placement of mobile homes be allowed on a temporary basis for those people with building permits for building conventional type homes , they have to have their permits first to build conventional home , that they can move in a Ir mobile home for one year only and at the end of the one year it may not be occupied and will have to be removed . H . Fink : There ' s a motion on the floor . Co Twigg ; I ' ll second the motion . H . Fink : Any discussion? F . Wilson : Two points come to my mind and I ' d like to mention both of them before you attack either one . I have two concerns , - - one is the size of the lot and whether or not they will need a variance to put mobile home by conventional home and the second is should have a safeguard for their financial situation , - - is the mortgage approved , - - anyone can get a building permit . Some discussion was held on this by H . Fink , C . Twigg , F . Wilson and others . H . Fink : _ 0 . K . I have a motion seconded , - - those in favor or opposed? Co Twigg - Aye J . Laiacona - Aye R . Gleason - Aye D . Payne - Nay G . Totman - Nay F . Wilson - Nay . H . Fink : I guess I have to vote and I vote Aye , - - the motion is carried . H . Fink : One other thing , - -we vote fora new chairman tonight for the Planning Board , R . Gleason : I move that the present officers continue in their present posts . D . Payne : I second the motion . R . Gleason : I move the polls be closed and �the secretary cast one ballot . G . Totman : I second the motion . 9 - .ty • - II , Fink : Boy , - - if we could vote that fast on everything we would have had the mobile home presentation through long before this , D . Payne made a motion that the meeting be adjourned which was seconded by J . Laiacona and the motion carried , E The meeting adjourned at 10 : 20 Pe M , Respectfully submitted , Josephine Bell s f Y t Y 10 1fi.