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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1974-10-17 !qrolon _town Planning (/gourd EST APRIL 1968 TOWN OF GROTON COUNTY OF TOMPKINS STATE OF NEW YORK 13073 On October 17 , 1974 , the Town of Groton Planning Board met for the purpose of making a recommendation as required in Article 16 of the Town of Groton Zoning Ordinance . The recommendation for the zoning change was accepted by a 3 to 2 vote , The following are the reasons for the affirmative vote . 1 . The land does not appear to be usable for residential or agricultural use due to topography of the land and soil conditions . 2 . The Town Board has asked the Planning Board to study the ordinance and make recommendations to expand the medium intensity zone . 3 . Land is available in this area for industrial use . 4 . The area is not being used extensively as a residential section of the town , 5 . Helps broaden the Town of Groton tax base . The following are reasons for the negative vote . 1 . Zoning is a major change and extensive study should be completed before a final decision is made . 2 . What is the feasibility of industry locating in the area ? For further details as to our feelings , please feel free to read the minutes of the October 17 , 1974 , meeting . George Totman Chairman SPECIAL MEETING OF THE GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD Held at the Town Hall , Groton , N . Y . Tuesday , October 17th , 1974 7 : 30 P . M . - 9 : 40 P . M . G . Totman - Chairman* Arthur Clark - Ithaca Journal* D . Payne - Vice -Chairman* J . Wargo - Chairman BZA* Z . Kane - Secretary He Fink* D . Chase* F . Scheffler* R . Gleason Josephine Bell - Recording Clerk* * - Denotes those present . G . Totman : Here are the minutes of our August 13th meeting and the minutes of our last meeting which was held on October 8th . Would you like a few minutes to read them over ? Has everybody read the minutes ? H . Fink moved that the minutes for both meetings be accepted as printed and D . Payne seconded the motion and the motion was carried . G . Totman : Now our purpose for this special meeting tonight is to act either for or against or make a recommendation to the Town Board as it relates to the proposed zone change in the north end of Town . D . Chase : Is that a choice of three things , George , act for or against or make a report ? G . Totman : A choice of two things , I guess . We are supposed to make a recommendation to the Town Board as to whether we feel the pro - posed change would lend itself to the type of land use that the request was made for and if we rule in favor of , or against , we are supposed to state in some detail as to how we regaahed that decision , as I understand it . Now the minutes are too long to read them verbatim , - - the minutes of our last meeting . We agreed at that meeting to meet tonight to discuss it and make that type of decision . I ' m not sure how all of you feel about it but since the last meeting Harvey Fink , Don Payne and myself spent a Sunday afternoon up there on that land and , just for information , from what we observed , and Don and Harvey can make their own comments after I ' m through , the land itself , in my opinion , doesn ' t lend itself for much of anything . The majority of the land in and near the vicinity of the construction that is going on there now is , vet , so wet , you couldn ' t even drive a car over it . The rest of the land - 1 - G . Totman : has a creek running through it and is all wooded . To the north of the land there is some viable farm land but in the petition that is the land owned by the people that signed the petition requesting that it be changed to commercial and medium intensity zone so , according to the ordinance , when a request like that is made the Planning Board has to make a recommendation back to the Town Board as to the way they see how the use of the land should be used . 0 . K . , Don or Harvey , do either one , or both of you , want to comment on what you saw in looking that land over ? D . Payne : I kind of agree with George , it doesn ' t lend itself to be useful for anything . I would rather hesitate to think any contractor would try to put homes in , or any farmer try to cultivate it for any purpose . The only section that appeared to be useful at all is the section currently being built on by Lewbro . H . Fink : I ' m in agreement with Don . I say that the land where Lewbro is now definitely isn ' t sutthble for anything much and the other land that they are talking about being rezoned , - - additional 50 acres approximately , is also marsh land , maybe could be used for wildlife but it isn ' t , - -wouldn ' t lend itself for anything in in or home development . G . Totman : Now , there ' s some land north of there that is in that same re - quest though that could be used for something . A lot of it north of there is being used somewhat for farm land . H . Fink : To the north would be along Locke Road , D . Payne : I think north of where Lewbro is now . H . Fink : That would be East , George , G . Totman : 0 . K . H . Fink : There ' s a building up there of some sorts , - - a barn . D . Payne : That is a home . Whose farm is that ? G . Totman : Brown ' s . H . Fink : Julian Brown ' s , - - o . k . there ' s some land that has some industrial possibilities , also . It ' s level and looks dry in that area . Another thing on that zoning , does that include all of Julian Brown ' s property in that zone or is that just Lewbro ' s property ? G . Totman : As I understand it , it includes about half of Julian Brown ' s farm . Mr . Totman went to the map and pointed out Lewbro ' s and Julian Brown ' s properties and where they are located . G . Totman : As we drove up by Magro ' s , - - H . Fink : Magro is back south of that . G . Totman : Evans is up there . What we are talking about is No . 6 , that - 2 - G . Totman : land that is for sale . F . Scheffler : It says in the minutes , a lot somebody sold to somebody from New York city . G . Totman : That ' s Lot No . 2 . H . Fink : You didn ' t get that map from Ben Bucko , did you ? G . Totman : Don tried two or three times but never got Ben home . What they are talking about , Don , is when we went into the Lew- bro property right in here somewheres - -pine trees all around the house - - this way from Evans ' house , there ' s a gravel driveway and a dwelling up in there . H . Fink : That would be quite a bit farther in on that map . That ' s not where the building is . D . Payne : No , it isn ' t . H . Fink : The place they marked on the map is where Lewbro ' s is supposed to go . G . Totman : Yes . So , anyway that is about the way the land looked to those of us who went up to look it over and we didn ' t just look at Lewbro ' s land , we drove around the whole tract up to the Locke line and back again and got out of the car more than once and walked on some of the land . We are supposed to review it and recommend to the Town Board our findings according to the ordinance and in our recommenda - tion they are asking us to recommend it in detail as near as possible . So , what are your opinions , one way or the other ? F . Scheffler : How close is Lewbro ' s driveway to that No . 5 lot ? It says in here 30 ft . H . Fink : That ' s not true . G . Totman : Assuming the map is drawn to scale , the driveway would be near here . The driveway you are talking about , 30 ft . , is the drive - way going up to the other house that is already there . They used that to get over to their property until they got the other road built . F . Scheffler : Is the driveway across from the guy ' s house in that Lot 20 ? Not near anybody ' s house ? G . Totman : No . H . Fink : Let me explain one thing . The thing being there Sunday showed me that Evans ' house is close to where the plant is going to be . The driveway doesn ' t seem to be that close to affect him but the plant , itself , is . Where the driveway comes out there ' s nothing across from . the driveway but at the hearing someone said house was across from the driveway . - 3 - G . Totman : They were talking about the first driveway . H . Fink : 0 . K. but there ' s no house across from that driveway . G . Totman : Frank , from looking at the situation , the driveway is farther away from any houses than the actual plant . The plant is up in back of Mr . Evans ' house . In looking at it , Mr . Evans would be the only one directly closely connected to the business . F . Scheffler : How close ? G . Totman : I ' d say about 500 ft . D . Payne : A couple of hundred yards . H . Fink : It isn ' t quite that far I don ' t think , Frank , it ' s approximately 300 to 400 ft , away . G . Totman : Also what we have got to be thinking of here is there is more than one parcel of land involved . We are not just talking about the Lewbro parcel because there is more than one land owner involved , that is what makes it legal to do it because there is more than one parcel of land . F . Scheffler : How does the rest of this land lend itself to other industries ? G . Totman : Frank , I really couldn ' t tell you about other kinds of industries because have no idea of the other type of industries that might want to locate up there . The land I saw that could lend itself to farming , northeast of where Lewbro is , would be fairly level and not too bad . F . Scheffler : We ' re not considering that land right now , - -you ' re considering this , this and this . D . Payne : We ' re considering the rezoning of the area , Frank . F . Scheffler : Doesn ' t that go uphill ? G . Totman : On that Bishop land there ' s quite a bit of level land there . F . Scheffler : You ' re not considering the land on the south side , just to the left of Jensen ? G . Totman : That wasn ' t in the petition , as I remember . F . Scheffler : Is that available , does anybody know ? G . Totman ; I don ' t know . The way I look at this , to start it off , you have land that ' s not , - - that doesn ' t lend itself to housing development or agricultural , which is the way it is zoned today . You are looking for planning of the future of the Town and you are also , when you are doing this , I feel you have to take into considera - tion what is best for the Town over the years and its economy is always a main concern for a Town and in the original request for us to look over the entire zoning ordinance for the Town Board the reason was to try to find more commercial land available in the . Town . You might say , in this case , somebody else found it - 4 - G . Totman : and we didn ' t but here is a business going in there that is going to be worth many thousands of dollarq ,more than a residential unit anyways , if one could be built there , which it can ' t be , and so as I look at it for the future of the Town I think its a good way to use some land that will never yield any tax dollars from anything else , and for the type of usage being proposed for it , it doesn ' t put any more kids in the school district and doesn ' t require that much more dollars out of the Town to keep it going like some developments would . D . Payne : This particular section is a small section that we are talking about rezoning but yet , from our observations when we were out there , I would say that really the land use itselfccould be industrial , really no use for it , - - no particular use it could be put to so far as building homes , - - I don ' t know , - - I wouldn ' t really see any oid ections to rezoning in that particular area . As I said , it ' s a small area and I would hope we wouldn ' t be setting a precedent of rezoning small areas if industries should want to move in . G . Totman : I think a lot depends on where you are when you are talking about it , - -when you are talking rezoning in a village or a city some - times they rezone a block which might not be over 3 acres . Where 70 acres may seem small to us to rezone they might rezone what might be only an acre of land they might see fit to rezone a certain area or take it out of one zone and put it in another zone . The size of the zone depends on where it is , as I see it . D . Payne : I don ' t really see how it would affect the master plan , as far as being objectional to it . It would be definitely having , or con- tinuing to have , some tax base in the Town from a business that is already here that want to relocate and expand . G . Totman : Don Chase , is there anything you would like to add ? D . Chase : Are we supposed to vote , or express our opinion , or what ? G . Totman : I think what we are doing is expressing our opinion and I think you could learn from other people ' s opinions and when we are through we have to make some kind of a recommendation and sit down and agree on what we will write to present to the Town Board . Once we make a decision then I would like to write it out and everybody agree to what is written out before it is typed up , otherwise I would have to call everybody back before we present it to the Town Board , D . Chase : I ' m of the opinion same as I was last week . I don ' t feel that I am knowledgable enough , and I ' m not sure that anybody on this Board is , - - 'I ' m not questioning anybody ' s total knowledge but I don ' t think that from anything I have been involved in , or read , I would have to know more about what commercial zoning would do for the Town , what could go in there and , as you indicate , that land doesn ' t lend itself to building houses or whatever , but I ' m not sure that we are qualified to say that . I ' m sure there are a lot of houses that don ' t require cellars , - -mobile homes , - - that probably could go down there if it was studied long enough . I - 5 - D . Chase : don ' t think I ' m qualified to make that kind of decision . I ' m also concerned as to why we are asked , - - that hurried up business of rezoning . I ' m concerned about this question of spot zoning and havd been told by our Town Attorney we can ' t spot zone that I t ' s against the law to spot zone , - - it looks to me like we are by considering this . There are a lot of questions in my own mind that would have to be answered , that would require a study of what zoning would do to the Town , - - of the medium intensity zoning really is and what ramifications will it have if we say yes because I think it might set a precedent for rezoning and I hate to think that we would get anybody in this Town in that kind of a situation . If we ' re changing the property that is in question as saying that it ' s marshy and wet and so forth , are we saying , in essence , then that nothing in the Town that is only that kind of land could be zoned medium intensity ? G . Totman : No , I wouldn ' t say that . D . Chase : These are the questions I would like answered before I feel I would be qualified to make any kind of a decision and if you want a recommendation for the Board , I would recommend that we not decide on it . Again , I think we are being pressured to make a decision on things we are not qualified to make and for reasons that are unclear to me also . G . Totman : Frank ? F . Scheffler : It looks to me like we are not considering - - we shouldn ' t consider this whole 70 acres in this deal , - - only the Lewbro property alone , - - right ? A . Clark : Bishop fronts on the other side . G . Totman : No , we can ' t do that . F . Scheffler : The way , - -you look at this map , - - that Lot 3 is pretty much blocked off as to entrance for anybody else as it is drawn out there . Who could go in there ? No access road to it . G . Totman : I assume that ' s part of Bishop ' s land . H . Fink : It ' s not . F . Scheffler : Lot 2 cut into there right to the corner and is owned by somebody else . H . Fink ; I could be wrong on this , but just to take a guess there - No . 3 is Whatman ' s and would extend into Locke and we wouldn ' t have a true picture of what we are seeing but I ' m sure their land runs into Locke . D . Payne : There is another parcel there that isn ' t marked . H . Fink : That belongs to Julian Brown . G . Totman : Joe , did you- come down to listen , or would you like to give us - 6 G . Totman : some words of wisdom ? Joe is the chairman of the Zoning Board of Appeals . J . Wargo : Just to listen . G . Totman : Well , what should we do ? F . Scheffler : So , in essence , it ' s a spot zone deal really , - - G . Totman : This is Don Chase ' s question , too . I can only tell you what I have heard . Ben Bucko explained to the Town Board that because it ' s more than one parcel of land it is not spot zoning . That is one of the reasons I asked Ben to come to our last meeting because I knew that question would come up and Ben also told our Board that because it ' s more than one parcel of land that it is not spot zoning . Since the meeting I ' ve asked some people , in some other towns , what their interpretation of it was , they have been involved in the same type of :thing., and they told me the same thing that Ben did . If you are including the property owners around the parcel of land in question and they all agree then , supposedly , it is not spot zoning . So I have to believe them until something proves differently . D . Chase : Some of the questions that come to my mind , so far as zoning is concerned , to me there would be more than just the use of the land . How about the neighbors and how would they accept this kind of thing and so forth . I think there is more involved in rezoning than just looking at the property and saying how it can be used . If you are talking about the - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -of the master plan , looking at itjit was set so there would be a minimum of medium intensity zoning which would also lead me to believe there were some pretty firm decisions made , they wanted to keep the majority of the property in the Town agricultural and low intensity and to rezone this would change the master plan quite a bit as opposed to an exception to a land use activity . G . Totman : At the time the zoning ordinance was enacted , Don , as I remember , I was there when it was done , the strong emphasis was put at that time that the major growth in Groton , looking at past developments , would be along route 222 towards Cortland . The planner that we hired to help us draft the ordinance was very strong in his feelings that this was the area for growth and we should continue it that way and that is one of the reasons that that was set up that way . We did talk about it at the time we put it in that there would have to be changes made and there would be areas where we would find later on would be best suited for something else and that is why these clauses were put in there . I might ask Art Clark , as long as he ' s here , if I explained it as near right as possible , because Art sat in at all the meetings and was a member of the Village Planning Board and the 701 Committee , A . Clark : Well , - -yeah - - our discussions for both town and village all centered around the idea that Groton is essentially going to be a bedroom community and we are talking now about the overall picture of Groton over 20 years . There was the feeling that commercial develop - ment would be along route 222 and somewhat along route 38 and major highly travelled roads so the emphasis on zoning ordinance was in - 7 - A . Clark : preserving agricultural use as much as possible by allowing the residential community to grow with minimum emphasis on the com- mercial community and perhaps at this point , and even at that time , I felt too little emphasis was placed on the commercial community . I still feel that route 38 from border to border and route 222 from the village line to the town line should be commercial all the way . F . Scheffler : You look at it from right now , - - if you want to conserve agricul - tural property , the best of your agricultural is out on route 222 , that ' s the best there is . Some discussion was held on this by A . Clark , F . Scheffler , G . Totman and others . G . Totman : We started working on the ordinance in 1967 and at that particular time the figures showed that Groton over the last 50 years had almost a negligible growth and from that picture the ordinance was drawn . A lot has happened since we have done that . It has grown more in the last 5 years than it has in the last 20 so we really have to take another look and update our ordinance . We talked at the time that we drew up the ordinance that we should perhaps update it every 5 years . A . Clark : It changes as the desires of the property owners change too . The other thing about those figures is they are long range predictions and don ' t take into account a peak at any given year . The pre - dictions aren ' t really that far off over the long run . G . Totman : Is there anything more you think we should discuss on this before we move on the question of the form or recommendation we should make back to the Town Board ? Don , - -Frank , - - Harvey , - - Don ? D . Chase : I would just like us to discuss , rather openly , how does each one see this , knowing not only what we have said about rezoning and how it affects the master plan and so forth , but knowing what we will do about some of the problems we have in that specific area , - - how are people going to accept it , how is the Town going to accept it if the zoning is approved and then discuss it from the other side , - - how it will affect people if the answer is no . G . Totman : The way I look at it is , - - first one thing , - - looking at the people in the area . We already know that there Lt a - certain element of people who have petitioned the Town Board against the proposed re - quest for a variance and also petitioned to the Supreme Court to overrule the Board of Appeals ' ruling . That is all public know - ledge . It is also public knowledge that the Town Board has scheduled a public hearing to change the zone . Now I think these things have to be taken into account . In looking at the people involved up there , and after looking the property over , I really and truly have sympathy for Mr . Evans . I feel that Mr . Evans in that area or total area requested in the zone change is the one that would be hurt the most . I look at the land , like I said earlier , as looking into the future of Groton and I think , from the comments I have had from people , a lot have called me and talked to me , if I rule the other way I will be more wrong than ruling in favor of it . This is my feeling from - 8 - G . Totman : talking to people in the area and watching the people respond . I also look at the idea if you . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a11 land use and activities in this world as to what a few people might like or appreciate , or it might hurt one or two people , then there wouldn ' t be much progress . I looked at the business they have got going up there , - -cement mixing operation and also look at a very similar type operation , right near where I work , in the dead center of Cortland , - -an operation that when it went in there was opposition from all the people in the area . The city let it go in and changed rules to allow it and I don ' t hear anything more about itsso apparently it isn ' t as dusty and noisy as one might think it might be . D . Chase : What you are saying bothers me in that we all circle back to this one situation as the apparent reason why we are rezoning . Now are we saying , in theory , that business will be jeopardized if we don ' t re - zone ? I gathered it sounded that way . A. Clark : That would be a consideration . G . Totman : The benefit of the individual business shouldn ' t be a consideration but the benefit of what it can do for the Town should be taken into consideration . D . Chase : I ' m wondering how much of the decision making that business is going in the rezoning . Would that business be jeopardized if the answer is no ? Why are we rezoning and if the answer is yes , then why are we rezoning ? G . Totman : After somebody has spent $40 , 000 , I don ' t know the exact figure , and find they can ' t use what they spent the money for , and the decisions have been changed that allowed them to start and have to cease operations , naturally it would jeopardized looking at it that way , but I think as I said earlier you have to look at future use , what it does for the Town , that ' s the way I look at it . Don Payne ? D . Payne : As I said before I still feel that the area itself would not be suitable for , from what I saw , much of anything- - agricultural , housing or industrial . If there is any possibility that industries might come in and make some use of that land , I , myself , would be all for it . G . Totman : Well Don asked for opinions on some other faucets of that same thing . About the people involved in that area . D . Payne : So far as the people involved , we have heard from some of them at previous meetings and public hearings . I don ' t know how many would really be directly affected by industry going in there . It would depend on the type of industry . H . Fink : Don ' t you think , wherever they might be located , anybody next to them would oppose anything ? It ' s just human nature I believe that people are going to oppose anything that moves next door to them . F . Scheffler : If you are going to rezone this now , it has to benefit other than - 9 - F . Scheffler : Lewbro , - - someone else and , as I see it , right now I don ' t know who else is going to benefit . Some discussion was held on this by A . Clark , T . Totman , F . Scheffler , D . Payne and others . G . Totman : Mr . Dow , the Town Supervisor , said that the Town of Locke , which borders this whole parcel , that is being requested to be rezoned , have expressed their approval , which has to be given for the zone change , or , I guess , he said they didn ' t express any disapproval , that ' s the way he put it . F . Scheffler : Say that again . Did they express approval or what ? G . Totman : The way I understand it , they were asked and didn ' t have any negative action for the request for zone change . H . Fink : Which would show an approval if you don ' t disapprove , I guess . F . Scheffler : Not necessarily , - - they may not disapprove at the moment but - - - G . Totman : Once we reach a decision it will take some time to put it in writing so , I think , unless somebody else has got more questions they would like to ask , we ought to be thinking about what we are going to do . Harvey asked what alternatives we have , - - it strictly says in there that we have ,got to make a recommendation . H . Fink : My personal opinion , or I think it is - as far as this cement plant as it fits in with what I saw goisn ' t out of line . The other parcel of land north of that is a possibility for industrial use but the land itself doesn ' t lend itself for anything and this is where I have second thoughts on the whole parcel of land . A . Clark : How about the land to the East ? H . Fink : The land to the East , - - there ' s some good land there . This is the map we are going by and it isn ' t very good . There ' s land to the East towards Bishop ' s , - - the road I drove on , - - I don ' t know whose land it ' s on . G . Totman : I ' d say that was on Brown ' s land . Some discussion was held on this by A . Clark , H . Fink , G . Totman and others . G . Totman : Now we have had all our personal feelings heard , does anybody want to make a recommendation ? D . Payne : I want to make a couple of more comments first . At our meeting of August 13th I requested from the people at our meeting to answer a question that I asked . It was as follows : "Mr . Magro says he wants no industries in the area , none at all , does every - body feel this way ? " Everybody from the public at our meeting that night felt the same way . I also think people were asked at that meeting if they would have any objections to chicken farms or pig farms in the area and they all had no objections . Now , I may be wrong but to me at certain times of the year farms are very noisy operations . 10 - G . Totman : I think you have to take another thing into consideration regard - ing the people that were at that particular meeting . All of our meetings are public but the people that were here at that meeting that night all were here for one particular reason , - - against any industry . There was nobody else here that night . They were a select group of people . D . Payne : And I think they also asked that it be left residential , which it is not now . G . Totman : The strip along the road is , Don , for 500 feet back . H . Fink : Just to mention it , at the public hearing that I was at when the question was asked there were more in favor of industry in the Town with only a few against it . Some discussion was held on this by all present . G . Totman : Are there any more personal opinions that anybody would like to present ? Hearing none , - - does anybody want to start , zM fhe form of making a recommendation to the Town Board ? D . Chase : I already recommended the way I felt and how I would vote and what I would recommend the Planning Board do and that is my recommenda - tion to the Town Board , G . Totman : Briefly , what you are recommending is that we do nothing ? D . Chase : I ' m recommending to the Town Board that I feel we need more knowledge about the subject and the results of rezoning , what it would do to the master plan) or the Town of Groton . G . Totman : Does anybody else want to make a recommendation ? Correct me , if I ' m wrong , these are recommendations that we are throwing out and when we hear them all , we ' ll recommend what we are going to do and one way or another will have to vote on whose recommendation we will recommend to the Town Board and either accept or reject it and look for another recommendation . Which way would you like to do this ? H . Fink : Let ' s see how many recommendations we get first . G . Totman : Don ? Frank ? H . Fink : Well , I ' m not in disfavor , - - this wouldn ' t be called a recommendation . It ' s not spot zoning reading through the general development plan for the Town and Village of Groton . There ' s one thing in there about business already situated in the Village or Town of Groton . Now , this may not be right but I can ' t help it , Lewbro is on my mind , and it says in there this Town doesn ' t have any industries and perhaps wouldn ' t attract any but it does say that any industry that is al - ready established should make it attractive if they have to relocate in this Town and , to me , it seems like maybe we have to help some - body . We have to put them somewhere and regardless of where we put them somebody is going to object . Here there are a minimum amount of houses , the land isn ' t suited for much , it would take a man who wants to put a plant there , - -would have to fill and drain and at least somebody going in there is willing to put some money in there and improve the land because it has no value to the Town in tax values . - 11 - H . Fink : I would have a revision on some of the land but I think , person- ally , I would have to recommend to the Town that we would be in favor of a zone change . Some discussion was held on this by D . Chase , H . Fink , G . Totman and others . G . Totman : Don , what I meant was , - - the comment you made earlier about not feeling qualified . I understand how you feel about that and I don ' t think I ' m any more qualified than you are , or Harvey or Don , but looking at the Board of Appeals , for example , they are asked to make decisions and they have so many days to act on it and they have to act on it and they are people just like you and me that don ' t have any more expertise than you or me , - -we ' re all in the same boat . We ' re not making decisions , we ' re making a recommendation . They are making decisions and there ' s a big differ - ence . So I think there ' s a difference and in the way we look at it . We ' re really not making the decision , we ' re making a recommend - ation . F . Scheffler : This thing , - -when you talk about zoning change , - - say tomorrow some - body wanted to locate out on route 38 we would have to go through this same procedure again and then again and again so why can ' t we s1t down and look at the whole deal , - - the whole thing , - - and loosen it or something ? You don ' t have to be pinned down to a specific thing constantly , D . Payne : The thing is , Frank , by law we are bound to answer this request . D . Chase : I don ' t think we have to . F . Scheffler : I don ' t think so either . D . Chase : As far as I ' m concerned , we don ' t have to make a recommendation if we don ' t have to . D . Payne : 0 . K . If we don ' t it would be assumed that we are in favor of it . I don ' t think I ' d like it that way . G . Totman : In reading the Ithaca Journal almost every night of the week one of the towns around us , or in the county , are going through the same thing . I think Dryden mostly , - - they are going through this every week almost - - for special permits , requests for zone changes and all sorts of things like that . F . Scheffler : You ' re making a decision counteracting a decision that was made prior to this ? G . Totman : Right , that is what a zone change is . J . Wargo : Any zoning ordinance , the way I look at it , has to be changed . It ' s got to be changed . I think Groton is just starting the way Dryden has . New people come in , they are going to make new de - mands which may be a little hard to swallow and you have to get used to making changes . G . Totman : 0 . K. FranV , if you are going to recommend in favor of the zone change , then we have to do so in writing . Whatever we recommend we have to recommend in writing to the Town Board . 12 - F . Scheffler : I understand that but are we working for the majority or not ? The Judge wouldn ' t make a decision until he had all the facts from both sides and I think you should have the public hearing first . G . Totman : We ' re basing our decision on land use , - - the Town Board has to base their decision on the people . D . Payne : As far as land use goes , I would have to go along with Harvey ' s recommendation to the Town Board , G . Totman : So far we have two proposed recommendations to the Town Board , do you want to make one ? D . Chase : You have 3 , mine and Don Payne ' s and Harvey ' s . G . Totman : Two different ones , I mean . The other alternative is do you want to make a recommendation pro or con so we can decide which one we are going to answer ? D . Chase : You said they are asking us to give detailed reasons as to why we are recommending one way or the other ? Some discussion was held on this by all members . D . Chase : If it ' s rejected , how soon could they ask for another rezoning ? A . Clark : The next day . G . Totman : They can keep right on asking . D . Chase : Let ' s say we say yes , what will the chances of it getting rezoned back the way it was be ? The chances are pretty remote , aren ' t they ? All I ' m trying to say is if you are a little bit undecided about something you should always see what ' s on this side if the answer is yes and what ' s on this side if the answer is no and what ' s the outcome for each . What I ' m saying is if it ' s approved you ' re stuck with it forever , the chances of it being rezoned back to agricultural are very remote , is that a true statement ? G . Totman : I don ' t know how to answer that . D . Chase : 0 . K . What would you say if it was turned down ? G . Totman ; What do I think would happen ? D . Chase : Yes , you would always have a way out , right , - - they could always ask for another zone change ? G . Totman : Right . D . Chase : Well , what if it ' s approved ? G . Totman : I say you are looking to the future and years from now other land uses may have changed and other uses would be made of it then . The whole nature of the area would have changed so maybe you would want to do something else with that land for a different type of use . If you look downstream anything could happen . It ' s hard to predict that far ahead . - 13 - G . Totman : Let ' s get back to our , - -Frank , I assume from your quietness that you ' re not going to say anything ? F . Scheffler : You have enough recommendations , one for and two against , right ? G . Totman : We have five people here and two recommendations , - - shall we vote on one or the other or vote to accept one or the other . It would be my preference to have a motion on the floor - - yes you will accept the recommendation Harvey made or let ' s say now we would have a majority of the feelings for - - D . Chase : Put them both in there . What ' s wrong with putting them both in there ? Put them in as we find them . If you ' re going to say that the Planning Board recommends certain things that ' s worth reading G . Totman : I ' m going to take a vote for our recommendation to the Board of the recommendation of the majority of the members and how they feel and if any feel differently will put their feelings in the letter as a footnote , is that fair ? Yes or no ? Don , (Payne ) are you listening ? Some discussion was held on this by D . Chase , G . Totman and the rest of the members . D . Payne : I think the best way to handle this is have .;&, vote , give our re - commendation that it was approved or accepted by the majority and then as a footnote put the other points that were made also . D . Chase : I ' m suggesting you ask them to read the minutes before they make their decision , as well as reading our recommendation . I want that put into the recommendation . G . Totman : We are going to make a recommendation based on the vote that we take and after the recommendation is written say the affirmative action was taken taking the following into consideration and the negative action to the vote was that way because the following people felt this way - - D . Payne : I think you would get more that way than having them read the minutes . G . Totman : What we are going to vote on is , - - do we make a recommendation to the Town Board that for the following reasons we recommend that the zone change be passed or if a no vote we don ' t make a recommend - ation to the Town Board to pass it for the following reasons . So a yes vote - - if you vote yes , then we make a recommendation to the Town Board saying we are going on record as favoring the zone change for the following reasons and if we vote no that means we will not make a recommendation for the following reasons . D . Chase : Wa& t a minute , - - I didn ' t say that ,- - I said we recommend to them that they don ' t decide on zoning change right now . That ' s what I ' m recommending to this Board and the Planning Board . G . Totman : The Yes vote will be on what Harvey recommended , the no vote will be on Don Chase ' s recommendation , now all those with a Yes vote ? All those that want to vote for the recommendation that Harvey made ? 14 - It was decided to take a separate vote on each recommendation . On the recommendation that Mr . Fink made the vote was as follows : Don Payne - Yes H . Fink - Yes G . Totman - Yes F . Scheffler - No D . Chase - No . On the recommendation that Mr . Chase made the vote was as follows : Don Payne - No H . Fink - No G . Totman - No F . Scheffler - Yes D . Chase - Yes . G . Totman : The action now , that we have taken , is three out of the five members here tonight recommend to the Town Board that for the reasons stated above by the members that voted in the affirmative that we recom- mend to the Town Board that that particular request for a zone change be approved . Also the members that voted against the recommendation and their feelings have also been so stated in tonight ' s minutes . Now that we have that settled , has anybody got anything else they would like to discuss tonight ? As long as nobody has anything to bring up , I ' ll talk . At the last meeting , we somewhat discussed some of the activities that this committee has been working on , looking at the ordinance and the suggested changes that should be made . I would like to schedule our next meeting and pick that back up and the Board our - selves go over that and see where we want to go with the suggest - ions our committee of three have made . We should bear in mind that this is what we are going to do at our next meeting and look , be - tween now and then , at our master plan , the intent of the ordinance and look at what some of the suggestions would do for the good or bad of the Town and see if we want to respond on the recommenda - tions or accept them as they are or whatever . A lot of it can ' t be individual decisions , it has to be what the whole general tone should be and we should decide tonight when we should have our next meeting . It was decided to hold the next meeting at 8 P . M . on Tuesday , November 12 , 1974 . H . Fink made a motion that the meeting adjourn . This was seconded by D . Chase and , on motion , carried . The meeting adjourned at 20 to 10 P . M . ReJephine ctfully submi ted , aaosl�ez J Bell - 15 -