HomeMy WebLinkAbout1986-08-21Town of Dryden
Planning Board lust 21,1986
Planning Board met- Aug.219186,Ch'r.B.Caldwell called meeting to
order 8 :10PM. Members present** J, Lee, R. M. Bobnick, Chr. Caldwell,
R. Lampila, R. Chase, H. Slater, Z. 0. Stewart. Absent: B. Lavine. Also
present: M. Webb, B. Dolph, A. Reed, C. Page, D. Gilbert, C. Brown, F. Beck,
K. Belden, Atty, P. Winn, D. Galbraith, & R. Stumbary C. ralobroni.
Public hearing for Ormsby "Buzz01 Dolph, Jr.Application 16 lot;
subdivision.(Hungerford Notch) off Ellis Hollow Fad. B.Dolph
presented map & profile of slopes & grades. Pointed out existing
roads, future proposed -road to be deeded to Town, NYSEG r -o ®w
separating quarry from proposed subdivision, each lot to be two
acres plus - -most area wooded, slightly sloped, small creek(puttinj
In 4° culvert,) large pond.
Board questioned Health Dept.status. Anderson on vacation last
week -- hadn't reed drawing till Mon; this week -- nothing rec d
yet -- requests from Health Dept. will be taken care of. Bond
questioned traffic visibility on Ellis Hollow Ad. Dolph replied
good, D.Gilbert(Highway Superintendent) stated he'd checked road
plans -- everything good. Dolph pointed out they expect to have
number of restrictive covenants requiring dollar values on homes
$150,000 minimum. Houshg control committee (made up of general
partnership) will review all plans before anyone builds, be sure
quality homes constructed.
CALDWELL: Prior to hearing,you filed sample deed restrictions.
DOLPH: 3 different sets proposed restrictions- -1st set deals w/
• lots having direct access to pond - -only 2 have use of pond.
Grantee shall not use herbicides or pesticides or permit sewage,
chemicals or other materials to drain, leach,enter pond. 2nd, -
Grantee shall not alter,divert,or otherwise use up water from
pond or springs feeding pond. .No duplexes. If dwelling is con-
structed on premises & contains apt.dwe111ng, shall consist of
less than 50% of entire premises. Another set of covenants dealing
with lots 617,8,11 -16 also have some restrictions(leaching into
water - shed.) Lots 1 -5 have nothing to do w /pond.
Dolph talked to NYSEG (Geo. Mayer ). MacDowell drawing f inished�mv
couldn't give written conformation allowing cross under of their
r -o -w until they see profile which has to go to Binghamton for
review -- assured by Mayer it's within limits, but no written
conformation.
DOLPH* Filed agreement with County Clerk(Carl Sears) to out across
his corner & small triangle left- .would,be conveyed to go w /l.ot
#11. You have copies of agreement.
CALDWELL questioned drainage during construction.
L.FABBRONI: Board has copy of letter from Gay Lamotte� lot line
swales, above sand filters run off surface water to bring drainage
to roadside ditches. Will build filter fabric dams made of hay
• bales & filter fabric -- (pointed out on map where lots drain to
spillways, & diversion swales.
M
20
H,Sj,.ATER suggested Bd.walk site,Caldwell exp alned they had
over past 5 years for various proposals for this land. A.Reed
questioned water availability. B.Dolph dug his own well- -69' --
13 gallon per minute.)
B.Caldwell asked for questions from public. Richard Stumbar,
Ithaca Atty.,representing Mary Katzenstein who own property
to N.W. adjacent on large pond, concerned about drainage --
questioned # of lots draining into pond.
LFABBRONI: 6 lots & #10 go into spillway first -not right into
pond.
STU14BAR concerned about salt & other debris draining into pond
and difficulty getting out phosphates,nitrates,& other chemicals
w /sand filters.
FABBRONI said salt added factor - -sand filters better than fill
systems-.-felt no problem as far as Anderson concerned.Katzen-
stein deed has restriction - -no chemicals entering pond.
DIRK GALBRAITH(Ithaca Atty.f or Mr. &Mrs.John Bird, adjoining
property owners) Their property surrounds smaller pond fed by
larger pond so whatever gets into large pond, gets into Bird
pond. Galbraith asked B.Caldwell if Bd.had assumed lead agency
status for purposes of SEQR, to which 'she replied '*under our
interpretations this would be unlisted action."
GALBRAITH* "Am I not correct that someone has to make negative
declaration?"
CALDWELL* There could be either 2 negative declarations by both
agencies involved or could be negative by 1 and positive by 1. 0
GALBRAITH:On basis of Mr.Stumbar's statement and Mr.Fabbroni's
answer, it would seem project poses potential for significiant
enviromental impact in terms of drainage. I'm advised entire
area flows into Cascadilla Creek. On behalf of clients(Birds')
I ask that this Board not make negative declaration, but require
developer to file draft of impact statement & physically address
Issue on drainage -- (exactly what material going into ponds from
roads-- salt,phosphates,nitrates.) Mr.Fabbrmni very candid - -could
not answer tonight. I think that's purpose to draft impact.
R.LAMPILA questioned size of ponds..
DOLPH* Lg.pond approx 3 acres multi -level ranging 4 to 20' deep- -
bass & sunfish in ponds.
R.CHASE.It's relatively pollution free at this point?
DOLPH* Sustains fish - -plant life- -parts are quarry,other parts
shale,slag areas -- actual bottom difficult to explain- -more than
quarry floor- -just cliff and stone.
H.SLATER:(questioned attys.) If property transferred to exact
restriction clause in transfer to people you represent,isn't
Mr.Dolph fulfilling his legal obligations cif he does that?
STUNBAR:My opinion, no - -I think it's a ruse- -you can't hide
behind deed restrictions- -he's going to transfer, knowing that
he has sand filters planned, roads that drain into pond knowing
they're going to kick in phosphates,nitrates,salt into pond.It's
• viable pond with fish -- people bought properties & use for swim-
ming and recreation. It's a pretty location. What we're heading
for by dumping is an ecological disaster to pond. Little drainagt
out of pond in summer time, but chemicals coming in will cause
concentrates of rapid plant growth and could turn into swamp
rather than pond, We've retained engineer Peter Nevelli from
Ithaca to speak to those ecological problems.
H.SLATER: I was only speaking from legal point of views.
R.STUMBAR:I gave you my legal answer -- absolutes
H. SLATER: You said, "I feel".
R. STUMBAR: All attorneys say "I feel."
H.SLATER: How can restriction get tougher? I could see it being
lax,but can't see it being more severe than when it was origin-
ally to people you're representing.
R.STUMBAR: When you transfer knowing, it's meaningless.
H.SLATER: Then they bought it meaningless.
R.STUMBAR: That may be so, unfortunately law books behind those
kinds of things.
H.SLA.TER: But precedent was set when transferred first time.,
R.STUMBAR: How was it set in original transfer?
H. SLATER: Restrictions are there -- original transfers from Finger
Lake Stone to Katzenstein. Think legally he must comply with
original clauses- -how can you make them any stiffer?
R.CHASE: We have 2 issues here. -salt for one and level to which
sand filter is able to filter out phosphates.
• D.GALBRAITH: Nevelli can speak accurately on that. Let's forget
legalities and look at this in common sense terms. Finger Lakes
sold lot to Mr. &Mrs.Katzenstein and deed had covenant - -a promise.
They promised not to dump chemicals into pond- -that promisse bind-
ing, not only on Finger Lake Stone but whoever subsequently buys
it. They have to abide by it. Now if you set up situation where
you have sand filter put in knowing in advance it's going to per-
mit phosphates & nitrates to pass thru it into soil & leach into
pond, you know there's going to be violation of promise. Doesn't
matter a darn what's written on piece of paper- -you know promise
is going to be broken.
H.SLATER: But they have to comply with it.
D.GALBRAITH: Yes, but soon as you put sand filter & septic system
on lots, you know there's going to be violation of promise-- it'siN
.vitable -- doesn't matter what's written.
H.SLATER: Probably every system violating some ecological require-
ment. Important point - -is it harmful content, or such minute con-
tent that-it effects nothing nature takes own accounts for - -that'
the point. Whatever point is, we have to comply with it and see i
doesn't happen.
D.GALBRAITH: One of reasons I felt draft enviromental impact statf
Nment appropriate,it'd answer question I don't think are answered
by developers. Mr.Nevelll could shed light on exactly what kind of
thing4 come out of septic systems.
B.CALD1dELL: Before we have Nevelli propose his comments, Mr.Gilber
how much salt is actually used on Town of .Dryden Road?
D.GILBERT: Our mixture has been running around 75% sand & 25,E salt.
4-0
Ck ELL: any idea how much would ne done in typical �vptnter? ,
LAM ILA: That particular area flat,which would be facoor,
GILBERT: Can't come up with figure for that - -use little salt,
NEVELLI: (Ithaca engineer) Mr,Katzenstein ask me to take objective
look to see what impact this development would be on pond he has
right toe Sand filters very good for removing what we call bio-
chemicals, but problem is, they lot other soluble substances like
nitrates & phosphates pass right through. This is a very unpollutc
pond - -weeds in there are pond weeds that grow in ponds w /low sed-
iment on bottom. Only takes small amount of nitrates in water to
trigger development of swamp, I'd roughly calculate in week's time
from ono -site septic systems(figuring 8 -10 lots)could kill phos-
phate level past critical range & trigger swamp development.
FABBRONI: Anderson thought sand filter better option,
SLATER :Can you guarantee worries these people having are going to
be taken care of adequately?
FABBRONI; I don't think there's great amount of evidence that
will destroy pond.
R.CHASE; Assuming Board takes lead agency, none of us engineers,
right now we're seeing 2 conflicting statements. Have any econo-
mical or feasible solution if Board should become lead agency &
decide pond couldn't sustain output?
FABBRONI: We could put fill systems in instead.
R,CHASEe Which would mean filtering thru more & more soil?
FABBRONI: That's right, Any comments?
NEVILLI: I'd still be skeptical - -fill system another type of
' alternative system we use in case we don't have good soil.
LAMPIL'A explained similar situation on own property. -much smaller
(1/3 acre pond at foot of hill & road, sanded & salted. No problem,
w /run off yet after 9 years, Still have healthy pond w /bass.
DOLPH: When we built "Birds" pond it was for trout -- man made spr ?
extra filtration system from drainage ditch. I'm not engineer,bu.O
I built that pond and have watched it many yrs. & it has always
remained clear,I have lived on this property all my life, I con-
tinue to live on it & I'm going to be neighbors w /everyone involve
here.1 don't want to see problems w /those ponds any more than any-
one else does. How long does it take this problem to build up?
Years, weeks, months ? ??
NEVELLI: Could take about a week In one summer.
DOLPH; You can't tell me all of a sudden in week's time in one
summer that pond is going to go from crystal clear to being filled
with algae and plant life.
NEVILLI„ No,but process is going to start.
R,CHASE: We're dealing w /degree of severity of problem that none
of us here are able to determine, not being engineers. I'm not too
sure engineers involved have done an extensive review of this
problem either.
F,BECK: (Atty) I'd like to know whether Bird's or Katzenstein's
have any other problems that haven't been expressed tonight?
STUMBAR: I think we've only explored surface -- compelling problem
here is that we need environmental. impact statement -- that'll tell
us if we need anymore. I think we have enough problems here to
trigger need for this, Certainly none of us in position to'say how
many other problems there may be.
GALBRAITH* I think Bird's concerned that present spillway can't
accomodate water and they're going to have flooding. There's no
data on this so we don't know what's going to happen.
DOLPH; I've watched that spillway for long time - -water that comes
off hill. goes down spillway now just like it will 10 yrs, from
now, if there's a million lots up there because topography is
same, It's maintained ery well in past 3 floods, no reason for
change,
r
GAL4BRAITH: °
I m not engineer, but you've got be increasing
speed of run -off by putting in road4by clea7.°ng and developing
lots. I don't know what's happened in Dolph's life time, but I
would expect there's going to be a lot more water going down
there a lot more quickly, Pond actually goes.into his home, If
level of pond goes down, they'd be big open space in Bird °s lv.
room - -they don't want that because all critters would be coming i::
DOLPH* In our deed with him he has right to go open drain on upper
pond to take water off that which goes to pond level control box
and in turn, fill his pond up.
GALBREATH* My point was, it doesn't make much sense to talk about
drain to Bird's pond. Just isn't enough data. Like Stumbar said,
there may be other problems we don't know and we'd just like to
see more information.
DOLPH: I think all this is a bit premature because we haven't
gotten mayor agencies recommendation that's involved in policing
what does on, and that is Anderson's report - -he's expert on sub.
Jvt t, and those are criteria set forth & we haven't seen his
report.
CALDWELL: We could request Anderson be lead agency.
STUMBAR: I spoke to Anderson, & went in to see what situation
was.w/enviromental review - -he's not interested in being lead
agency. This is Town matter, that's what he said over phone- -
Whether he would change his mind if it were actually referred to
him I don't know. He said he's kind of getting tired of Town
referring things to County all the time as lead agency when he
thought it was more a local issue.
CALDWELL: Town has referred other matters in past w /no problem.
If we declare him lead agency then he has to go ahead & make what-
ever assessment. He will still have to give us a written report
& after hearing is closed we have 45 days in which to make de-
cision.
H.SLATER:(questioned about enviromental impact) "Would that
effect your time frame in any way ?"
DOLPH* I'd haves to turn that question to my engineer.
CALDWELL: I'll declare hearing closed. We have up to 45 days to
make our decision also SEQR determination we can request Health
Dept.'s Anderson be lead agency.
R.CHASE:Doefi't mean we have to abide by his decision -he'd be
In best position to give us information we lack.
Ra CHASE MADE MOTION J
VOTE ALL YES
CARRIED
AGENC
TER__
We' have at least 1 regular meeting and probably 2 special mtgs.,
within next 45 days. Public hearing application for Dan Parks
amendment for 3 lots in Genung circle subdivision on Snyder Hill.
Parks present(acting 'iagent for mother. in- law, presented maps with
proposal to straighten and improve lot lines pointed out change
on map. (Lots ## 68 -10, 68.11, & 68 -15) No comment from public.
Planning Board hearing closed.
R, M. BOBNICK MOTION TO AUROVF CHANGF -AS SHOWN ON MAP. NO
SIGNIFICIENT ENVIROMENTAL IMPACT CHANGE, 2nd-- R. CHASE
NO DISCUSSION —
VOTE ALL YES CARRIED
Caldwell °file amended map with County .Clerk.
0
4;
6.
D.Gilbert present -- update on rd. changes - -wards & specs from
r9 *81 copies made for each Bd. Member, Used to oe 50' r -o -w now
60' required - -now require oil and stone -- preferred turn around
pictured - -no circles turn arounds prefer "TarLe* Short discussion
of Zwart---r -o -w from Crystal Drive to .Bridle Lane - -no plans far
development now. e
CALDWELL* I hate to give up r -o -w. No action taken.
PRELIMINARY DISCUSSION
B.KEECH present for 5 lot subdivision on Beam Hill.
M.Pirsic backed off on purchase- -Keech will develop all lots
himself:, same as he did Knollwood•Lot lines and plans same as
Pirsic had. G.Lamotte did look property over -- presented map-
discussion of driveway entrance on lot -- scheduled hearing for
Sept.18th at 8:OOPM.
J.Comme:rford present -- relates to construction of 2 sites in
Parkwood Village Mobile Home Park on Hanshaw Rd. Licensed for
148 & have eliminated one site(put large home in -- eliminating
#34 lot: & rebuilding it here & calling it lot 85A. As long as we
have to do that & put new septic in we're asking_ Anderson's
permission to add 1 lot(constructing 2 lots but net gain of 1
lot. Park will go from 148 lots of 149 lots - -no change in road
layout- tapping into existing water lines, etc. This has been
to Town Bd- -had hearing - -it was referred to Planning Bd. pre-
sented detailed sketch & letter to Anderson - approval by Health
Dept.
R.LAMPILA MOTION TO RECOMMEND TO TOWN BOARD- PARKWOOD VILLAGE
BE ALLOWED TO GO TO 149 UNIT PARK SECONDED R.M.BOBNICK -0
NO :DISCUSSION
VOTE ALL YES CARRIED
C.BROWN: Mrs.Creasy did all work on this - -we've prepared copy
of our proposal for each Board member and M. Webb. Included
copies of individual petitions done by roads in general. Over-
whelming response. People really want this - -99% plus.) I thank
you very much for your time. idhere do we go from here ?"
B.CALDWELL: We take this into consideration or deliberation on
our changes, Whether zoning ALnge for specific area or major
document change- -ours is only recommendation to Town Board. I
would suspect Planning Bd, will want to take this hand in hand
w /outline from Gary Evans to show what people want in that area
when it comes to actual mapping.
C,BROWN: Not much chance of action before, then?
B.CALDWELL: We'll have to discuss it - -at last working session
of Planning Board, Mr.G.Evans from County said he would give
first part of suggested revision which he did. We're just hauling
them out tonight and calling date for next session. From there
we will have a little idea on what we're doing in termcy"6f time.
R,LAMPILA: Are you satisfied with zoning regulationSas they are
In RB 1 overall?
C.BROWN: Yes -- reason we want to go
to be most restrictive, not looking
it to remain rural residential.
H.SLATER: You want to preserve quality and appearance of low
density - residential areas compatible to farm use.
from RC to RB1.
to suburbanize
Not trying
area- -want
7.
C.BROWN: That's correct -- exactly what we're looking for! One
thing that is very important to people in area is if were RB 1
there would be no more trailer parks. We have enough. In our
end of Town we have real problems with them(water & pollution.)
General discussion letter to clear up problems rather than to
just say we don't want the problem.
Set working session for Thurs.Aug.28th at 8:00 for Zoning
revisions.
Head minutes for June 19th & July 17th.
H.SLATER MOTIONED TO APPROVE MINUTES OF JUNE 1
SECONDED---R.M.BOBNICK
VOTE ALL YES CARRIED
AS SUBMITTE
R.M.BOBNICK
MOTIONED TO APPROVE
MINUTES OF JULY 17th
SUBMITTED
SECONDED by
H.SLATER
VOTE ALL YES CARRIED
A.REED questioned if anyone {,ad reed water /sewer study
on Rt . 366.
M.WEBB- No, I'll talk to Clint.
R.LAMPILA MOTION TO ADJOURN SECONDED R.CHASE
AS
VOTE ALL YES MEETING ADJOURNED 10:30PM
Secretary,