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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2012-06-27 TB 6-27- 12 • TOWN OF DRYDEN DRYDEN TOWN BOARD June 27, 2012 Present: Supervisor Mary Ann Sumner, CI Stephen Stelick, Cl Joseph Solomon , Cl Jason Leifer, CI Linda Lavine Elected Officials: Bambi L. Avery, Town Clerk Other Town Staff: Dan Kwasnowski , Director of Planning Jane Nicholson , Planner PUBLIC HEARING PROPOSED ZONING AMENDMENTS Supv Sumner thanked the Planning Department, Dan Kwasnowski and the Planning Board who put in many hours analyzing and discussing the zoning proposal. She thanked Atty Perkins for an incredibly thorough review and many hours of discussion, and the Town Board members for many , many hours of discussion and review . The public hearing was opened at 7 : 07 p . m . and the board dispensed with reading the public notice. Marie McRae , Irish Settlement Road , read a statement composed by Joe Wilson who was unable to be here tonight: • Dear Town Board Members, I took home from last Thursday's Board meeting a copy of Mr. Schickel and Mr. Anderson's pamphlet called "Suggested Changes to the proposed Town of Dryden Zoning and Subdivision Laws. " I am commenting on it as well as making a few general comments which i wish you to consider at the Hearing scheduled for this Wednesday, June 27. 1 . The Board, the Town's staff, and the advisory groups to the Board have been working on the matter of the zoning law for several years. During that time, i have attended between two-thirds and three- fourths of your meetings . At virtually every one of your meetings, members of the public have addressed the Board on same [some] aspect of the proposed zoning law . 2 . One person, Mr. Bruno Schickel , has been the primary commentator speaking at every meeting where the subject of the zoning law has come up. In addition, he has made clear that he has met for many hours with your staff members on the same subject. 3 . Therefore, it is fair and reasonable to conclude that the public, and especially Mr. Schickel , have had an extraordinary amount of time and opportunity to influence your thinking on the zoning law which is now before you for hearing. 4 . At last Thursday's meeting, Supervisor Sumner noted that a number of Mr. Schickel's ideas have been incorporated in the draft law now before you. 5 . A fair summary of what Mr. Schickel (and Mr. Anderson's) now present in their pamphlet are : a. speculative predictions of unintended consequences; b. disagreements with Board policy regarding land use planning; c. minor editorial changes which can be incorporated at some convenient later date in "clean- up" legislation which Town Boards and other legislative bodies deal with routinely. 6 . In addition , the gentlemen suggest that much of the law be made optional by making many policies subject to change via "Special Use Permits. " Changing rules into options creates the kind of confusion, uncertainty, • or chance of an abuse of discretion that the two gentlemen have often expressed concern about when they object to the possibility that the Town Board or another governmental entity might veto a particular land use that they as land owners might want to pursue on their own land some time in the future. P-age 1 of 11 TB 6-27- 12 7 . Because of all the time and opportunities to be heard which you have afforded the public generally and Mr. Schickel in particular, it is now fair and reasonable to end this multi-year process of re-drafting and modification so that there can be an up or down vote on the laws as they currently read. 8. If the laws do not pass, then all can go back and redraft. I f they do pass, then, as was suggested by one or more members of the public at previous meetings, you can commission an advisory group to hear, assemble, and report with the real life experiences of Dryden citizens with the Dryden Zoning and Subdivision laws . 9. The Town Board has many pressing matters to attend to both routine and otherwise in addition to the Zoning and Sub Division laws. In particular, given the Governor's suggestion that fracking begin in the counties which surround Dryden on three sides and his additional comment of late last week that the DEC will release its fracking regulations very soon, it is time to further protect our Town from the predictable ancillary effects of fracking on our roads, our air, our water, our hearing, and our public services with appropriate local laws. Regards, • Joe Wilson 75 Hunt Hill Road Ithaca, NY 14850-9674 607-539- I159 Jim Skaley said he reread the whole ordinance . in general he thinks it is a good ordinance . There are some pieces he would have written differently. He said the Board should take a look at the PUD section . In general, the planning staff took many recommendations in terms of carefully defining how the PUDs were to be designed , implemented and approved , and the SEQR process is now incorporated . The one omission , based on his research and what ® other places that have PUDs recommend and how they design those PUDs is a minimum acreage requirement in terms of deciding where the PUDs should go . He recommends the board consider a minimum amount of acreage for a PUD . The way it is written now a PUD could go on a one-acre lot . That in his view subverts the whole zoning process. He asked the board to considering making this amendment. He said it is time the board conclude the discussion and pass the zoning amendment. If necessary to amend , based on experience , it is not written in stone and the board can make those improvements . Bruno Schickel submitted 58 signatures collected in the last few days in support of the proposed suggested changes previously given to the board by him and Craig Anderson . He does support updating the zoning. He also thinks the whole foundation of the zoning is based on the Comprehensive Plan. They have identified a number of areas where they feel this plan is lacking regarding the Comprehensive Plan . Those things are highlighted in the document submitted . One thing is the Comp Plan calls for the establishment of an Agriculture Advisory Board which has not been done yet. It calls for redirecting growth from agricultural land and open space. The new zoning does that somewhat, but could do more . Channeling development into the hamlet zones and nodes — there is only one hamlet zone left. The others have been eliminated . Affordable housing — 2 family homes are eliminated in neighborhood residential . This is a significant loss of affordable housing. There are no zones where multi -family is allowed out of right. Those two things are significant in terms of the loss in affordable housing. 410 Minimizing the cost to government , residents and businesses — a lot of the changes they have been suggesting relate to this and maintaining a flexible environment for businesses. Page 2all •fl3 6-27- 12 ® Agricultural Land - a lot: of agricultural land is in a designated Ag district is in the conservation zone . He submitted a map identifying land in green that is currently in a conservation zone but is in an Ag district. About 15-20% of the green is in the conservation zone . He suggested that rural farmland be called just that and not identify it as conservation zone. Front yard set backs are not clear - Is it the center of the road or edge of the right of way? Home Occupation Level 1 - This is something that will trip up a lot of people who work from their home and might have an employee (or no employees) . In some zones you do not allow someone to work from their home if they are in a detached building or over the garage . That is a problem that needs to be addressed . Open space definition - there are problems with this. There is a suggestion to change the conservation zone to residential conservation zone. One of the things that has been pointed out is the need to try to communicate in zoning what you are trying to accomplish . People assume building is not allowed in a conservation zone . The name should be changed to not confuse the intent. Ag related enterprises, nurseries, greenhouse retail - these are protected under Ag i Markets Law and should be allowed out of right across the board . Use table changes - They have suggested a lot of little change. These are significant if • you are the one who suddenly finds yourself unable to have an artist studio at your home because you happen to be in a neighborhood residential zone . He thinks it will trip up a lot of people in the future . Area bulk table - There are a number of things that are problematic in this table and must be dealt with . Right now in the neighborhood zones, virtually every lot on Yellow Barn Road would be instantly made nonconforming if this goes through as written . If someone wants an addition on their house, they will be forced to get a variance . Section 604 - there is a special provision for major subdivisions . The area required for residential housing was changed to a one-acre lot if you have well and septic . That is allowed across the board . With this provision you 've taken it away in the rural Ag and rural residential areas. It had the effect of forcing not only the conservation area to be required to use conservation subdivision , but it essentially made all the rural agriculture and the rural residential a conservation subdivision zone as well . It was a significant change and was made basically in the last month . This did not come in prior to that . B Schickel said he has spoken a number of times to the board out of an express desire to truly make this a good , workable document and lessen the onerous impact on people . He has experience with people who have intense frustration dealing with zoning issues . These are lot of little adjustments, but add up to something pretty significant . He urged the board to adopt these suggested changes and bring it back in July and pass it. There is no need for this to be held up for months. Jim Crawford - said he appreciates work of Bruno Schickel and Craig Anderson . He has attended many hearings and some of the smaller sessions that have led to this document . • He is aware of private meetings Schickel and Anderson had with staff and elected officials. He and his wife, Nancy, have added their names to the document submitted tonight . His point is Bruno Schickel 's action and voluntary activity in this regard is a model that we don 't want to Page 3 of II TB 6-27- 12 • discourage as we seek across all political persuasions open government and participatory democracy. People who invest their own time and express their good will in so many ways , certainly with a degree of expertise and thoughtfulness , ought to be appreciated and cooperated with to the greatest extent possible . He was saddened by the comments brought by letter from Mr. Wilson . He is certainly entitled to his say at meeting, but to the extent he singled out Bruno Schickel and Craig Anderson and moved beyond criticizing their suggestions to call into question their motivation , that is something he hopes that the board would discourage and prevent. This is a public hearing on a public document that will affect town residents for many years. It is a lengthy document and has been a lengthy process. This is the final stage , and having read the document presented by Schickel and Anderson , it seems the tone is entirely reasonable and the suggestions are constructive . He urged the board to ask residents not to single out each other and question motives . It is best we do these sorts of things with a spirit of good will . He expressed his appreciation for the work these citizens have done . Henry Kramer - supports what Bruno Schickel and Jim Crawford have said . An effort like this involves a lot of people and work. A lot of hours and work have been put into this and it has to be appreciated. At the same time , a project takes on a life of its own and it becomes very difficult not to adopt it when all that time and effort and work has gone into it. He thanked Bruno Schickel and Craig Anderson and those who worked with them in their effort to try and improve product. Bruno is not speaking purely as an individual, but for many members of the community. His biggest problem is that the zoning law is like an express train . It 's going down the tracks sort of out of control and there is a hurry to get it done . There should be no hurry to get ® it done . An issue is like this is important. He supports minor revisions to the zoning law, but doesn 't see there is a need to go as far as what has been proposed to this particular point. When you take in combination what the board is doing with zoning, what they are doing with the C6As and what they have done with hydraulic fracturing, what he is concerned about is much more fundamental . It is what the board is doing with landowner rights and individual freedom . Individuals and landowners need to have rights and those rights should not be taken away or overridden by the board . Comprehensive zoning, social zoning of the type that 's been proposed , intrudes upon those landowner rights . That will probably affect him very little at his age , but for our children and grandchildren , little by little, inch by inch , their rights are being ceded to town government. By the time they grow up , he's afraid they won 't have any rights left. David Weinstein - said we have to acknowledge that far from being express train , in their efforts to amend the zoning ordinance , the Planning Board , after studying this issue for five years, recommended action to the Town Board over a year ago . The Town Board was very careful in looking at everything once again at town meetings, allowing people to put in opinions and continuing to reconsider whether each concept in the new zoning was the best compromise . This document doesn 't do everything that he ideally would have liked . It doesn 't do everything that other people would like to see accomplished . For example, they acknowledge that it doesn 't go far enough in being able to insure protection of farmland into the future . But it is a document that tries to come up with a good compromise solution that meets the needs of the most people . The contradictions that were apparent in our currently existing zoning were too many and frequent to make that document really useful in terms of charting the course of future land use in order to make sure we keep Dryden the town we want it to stay and develop in to . He asked the Board to pass the amendment to get zoning that meets the objectives that were set, comes up with some very good compromises to chart a course for the land use of the future . Page 4 of II TI) 6-27- 12 • Ron Beck - said he doesn 't like regulations for things that don 't need regulating. He thinks this document is an overreach on things that are working pretty well . They have at least one parcel in their farming operation , active farmland , which is now in a conservation zone . If it's in an Ag district, leave it in the Ag district . If a landowner decides to sell or develop, let him be subject to the current laws on the book that are regulating development. There 's no need to put it in a conservation zone just to make it easier to go through another layer. He has one neighbor who has asked for some parcels to be removed and it happened . He will be reviewing his parcels. This is a regulation we don 't need to have . Don Scutt - said he resents taxes and government deciding what to do with his money . He should enjoy his money and have right to do what he wants . He is against activist governments , commissions and boards of just a few people deciding for a group as a whole and steering pet projects. Local government has a mission to be more involved in our life and that is wrong. He stopped the reading the documents a few months ago because he figures the board will do what it will do. Zoning as a whole is not a good thing. Zoning is more and more in our lives and our rights are dwindling more and more every day . He would like zoning as a whole thrown out in the town . The root problem is in the comprehensive plan . That was written by so few people and most people don 't even know what it is. Using it as a guiding document is unfair. Throw out zoning as a whole . He believes in fewer taxes, less government and that government should not take away our rights and zoning does that . He said don 't have zoning and re-write the comprehensive plan . Kathleen Elliott - said she has been following this for a while . With comprehensive plan , zoning and changes, she might be happy if knew it was locally based . She did research , realizing that the Town of Dryden pays dues to the American Planning Association , the New York State Planning Association and a group called ICLEI (the International Council of Local • Environmental Issues) . These people are being spoon fed certain topics to include , certain movements to initiate, and its coming from an outside source . Check our Agenda 21 . She is concerned about this. It is not necessarily coming from Dryden itself. Debra Cipolla Dennis - said the population elected the board . It is not just a few people in Dryden that believe in zoning and the Comprehensive Plan . The board is elected to represent us. They can 't include everyone in the town or we would never get anything done . The board has been working on this a very long time . Town staff and the board have put many, many hours in this. Many people have come to meetings and it has been a very open process. It has been a very inclusive process . Changes have been made from comments from the public . The current zoning is terribly outdated and needs to go. We need something modern to move ahead with . This document is not cast in concrete and can be changed as needed . It is time to get this passed. Evan Carpenter - said understands that one farmer may want to be farming and another may want to sell for development. That is difficult for the town to allow both to happen . His passion is toward keeping the farmland farmable . There is one piece of property that he rents where the current family bought half the parcel and felt that the person on the other side would build a home and enjoy the open view . They didn 't realize he wanted to build houses on his property . That made it difficult for them and they bought the lots across the road from them . Most people think they only need regulation for their neighbors. He understands it is difficult to balance all this in the zoning plan . Ag district land in a conservation zone - he understands can still be farmed . But the New York City watershed views agricultural use as the best environmental protection of land . If that 's what a conservation zone area is, Ag is the best way to protect the land , wildlife , water • and resources . He doesn 't understand why that is not separated out . Page 5 of II TI) 6-27- 12 110 Page 23 , Chart of Uses - a daycare center is not permitted in a neighborhood residential area which in his mind is where a daycare center should be . It is permitted in a light industrial office adult entertainment zone . That just doesn 't seem right . In looking at the plan he has a hard time trying to picture where Dryden does want development. Where there is currently higher density , it doesn 't seem to expand into the areas next to them. Higher density is right next to conservation . There ought to be more of a buffer there so the higher density areas can be expanded and they can become hamlets by allowing some of the other uses . Grocers and daycare centers will migrate to where people are if they are allowed to grow. If there is already the start of a hamlet area, he views those as areas that should grow to become a Varna or Etna . Development is like water and will find path of easiest resistance. He see the open Ag land as areas where people will buy a house lot and you have unintended sprawl areas in Ag areas. He thanked the board for their time and said he appreciated their work. David Bravo-Cullen - said he is a practicing architect and deals with zoning on fairly regular basis. He has reviewed the zoning ordinance separately from Craig Anderson and Bruno Schickel and his conclusions are similar. In addition: 1 . Concern about Special Use Permits - in particular for religious institutions. It seems a Special Use Permit allows the Town Board to decide whether or not something should be allowed. Religious institutions are currently listed as special use permits in all zones. The Town Board has the power to decide whether or not • someone can build a church . He said the site plan review process is adequate to address concerns . 2 . Non -conforming uses - He advised the board not to create non-conforming uses by allowing what is there . Let the property continue as it is because you create a lot of extra time and money from the government point of view and frustration of property owners. Bill Lowe - his concerns have been addressed . He thinks Ag should stay Ag and conservation should be thrown out of Ag areas. Larry Berger, Genung Road , has lived in Ellis Hollow for over 10 years and grew up in this area. He works with zoning on a daily basis, and can see the need and benefit of zoning and appreciates the work that's gone in to it. One thing overlooked is in the conservation zones . If land is declared conservation , presumably for the benefit of rest of community, then there should be a tax reduction for conservation zones . Craig Anderson - thanked the board , Dan Kwasnowski and Jane Nicholson for the time they have put into this project . He said the previous comment is a good example of why the conservation district name should be changed so people don 't get confused. There are a lot of good comments on farming and he is concerned about farming. The open space definition in there really picks on agriculture , and he hopes when the open space plan comes in that you can fold that in and everyone can understand how that works a little bit better. Tim Woods - thanked the Conservation Board , Town Board , and Planning Dept for taking into consideration the requests that the Dryden farmers committee made to review the CEAs and make changes to make it more equitable for agriculture in the CEAs . CEA 15 was • reduced by 2 / 3 and that was one of the main ones they were concerned with . Thank you . Pagc6of11 TB 6-27- 12 In conjunction with the farmers committee , they met with a representative from NYS Ag 86 Mkts Enforcement Division whose job is to make sure that agriculture is permitted and allowed in all districts across the state in order to promote the production of agricultural projects. They look at zoning and CEAs and rules and regulations and planning that towns try put in place to make sure that agriculture is viable as much as possible in each township . When they find a discrepancy, they contact the town and make recommendations for changes . They are currently reviewing these documents and we are awaiting decision . In their preliminary points , Ag 86 Mkts made some points that he wants to bring to everyone 's attention: They aren 't sure why two of the Ag related operations in the use table were not being put into the rural Ag districts , primarily the nursery and Ag related enterprises. The Farmers Committee recommends that you move those uses to the Ag district because by Ag as Mkts they are agricultural operations. Supv Sumner said they are business uses permitted by right. T Woods said they should be moved so that all Ag things are together. T Woods said the farmers group has prepared a map comparing what is in rural Ag zones now compared to what is in the Ag district. The town has cut approximately one- third of the Ag district out of rural agriculture and put it into the conservation district. They fail to see the logic of that and recommend that any Ag district land be put in to the rural Ag district. There would be no question then of Ag uses on Ag land and there would be no confusion . Those are the committee recommendations . Alan Dedrick - Agrees with what has been said . Like Mr. Beck , he has land in the conservation district and isn 't sure why . The gravel pit up the road is in the Conservation District. He would like his land removed from the Conservation District. He is not sure what a lot of that stuff has to do with the health , safety, and general welfare of residents of Dryden . Judith Pierpont - commended the board on doing a job that is incredibly locally based . It is expressive of a Comprehensive Plan that the town spent years asking for input on. It is expressive of the kinds of development that we want to see in Dryden as a whole . We have more years where lots of things can be tweaked and amended . We can go on endlessly trying to make it a perfect thing. We should move forward and have a new and updated zoning plan now then do definitions of conservation district for the future because there is a lot of confusion about what that means . Her understanding is that it is an expression of density and ways to development, not just conserve land . A lot of understanding needs to come from time using this document. Now is time to go ahead and see what needs to be changed . Jacques Schickel - asked who decided what a conservation district is and why they have a right to do that, and was told it was the Planning Board , Planning Department, the Town Board and that everyone that has reviewed it has agreed on that definition . He asked what the problem with artists was and whether there was a problem with them in neighborhoods, and why the board wants to solve a problem that doesn 't exist . Supv Sumner said it refers to a business use on a non-residential property. Because of things such as traffic and noise and other things associated with a business use , it is not strictly a residential use or a home occupation . Artist studios are in the business group . Cl Liefer said the determining factor is the primary use of the parcel . An artist studio in • a residential zone, if it is a home occupation, is no issue . If it is simply a business and not an accessory to a residence in a neighborhood area, there might be a reason to address that through the table . Primary use of property is the determining factor. Page 7ofII TB 6-27- 12 • J Schickel said he supports the document submitted by Bruno Schickel and Craig Anderson . B Schickel said the point he has been trying to make is that the definition is so restrictive . It does not say on the property, it says inside the home with no visible signs whatsoever that that is going on . These things will matter. Supv Sumner said it is frustrating that people probably believe a lot of things that he says that are mistaken . In this case, it is clearly true that you can have a home occupation level I or level II in any zone except industrial or neighborhood residential , except you need a special use permit. B Schickel said Level I and Level II are different. Home occupation says only inside the home , not on the property . It is going to trip people up . Make the little adjustments they are proposing. They are pretty simple . It shouldn 't delay the process . Supv Sumner said there are reasons they are this way . Dozens of people in hundreds of hours of discussion have agreed on these definitions . B Schiekel a lot of people have made some really good comments that aren 't on his radar screen . That's the beauty of the public hearing. This is the second public hearing. The point is a document that taken together with the subdivision law and design guidelines is several hundred pages long. A lot of people offer different perspectives as to how this will negatively or positively affect them . It is incumbent upon the board to take the thoughtful comments and seriously consider them. Don 't simply say we have to stamp this thing and move it on because we 've spent two years on it . That short changes a very inclusive , very complete , very good process that 's been being followed . Take a moment of deliberation and look at these things. Supv Sumner thanked the dozens of people who have attended meetings to comment. D Scutt said he sees it as a big issue in the town and suggested the town send it out to the public for a vote . T Woods said in looking at the table , in the agricultural group, everything is permitted , no special use permits , no site plan reviews. However nursery , greenhouse , retail is not in the agricultural group . It is in the business group where a site plan review is required and in the conservation district a special use permit is required . That is against NYS Ag 86 Mkts law. For the Ag related enterprise, there is no special use permit required for that in a conservation district, where a lot of the Ag land is. It is permitted , but still requires site plan review. It doesn 't make any sense . H Kramer - Jacques Schickel raises a question that he would want to look into because art is a little bit different from anything else . There could be first amendment issues involved with art. The board should look into it . J Schickel said he doesn 't know of any artist studios that are that thriving that would cause a big problem in a neighborhood with traffic. Supv Sumner said the neighborhood residential districts tend to be areas that are already fully built out. So it makes a different neighborhood characteristic . 41 Page 8all 'I'I3 6-27- 12 • PUBLIC HEARING SUBDIVISION ORDINANCE REPEAL AND SUBDIVISION LOCAL LAW Supv Sumner opened the public hearings on repeal of the Subdivision Ordinance and adoption of the proposed Subdivision Local Law at 8 : 15 p. m . B Schickel said he and Craig Anderson thought the subdivision law as proposed read very cleanly. They only had a few comments regarding it. On page 2 , where it has approval of common driveways as herein provided and as provided in the zoning law, they suggest striking that because it seems to be in conflict with another area. The last sentence under the definition of open space - "for the purposes of this local law , natural resources shall include, but not be limited to , agricultural land as defined as open land actually used in bona fide agricultural production . " They feel like that is a concern that the farmers had , that we are targeting ag land specifically and identifying it as open space to then put additional restrictions on it. They are concerned with that. On page 27 , he said there seems to be a typo where it has common driveways may be approved by the Planning Board . He thinks the intent was to be Planning Department in that context. Otherwise , he said the work done on the Subdivision Law was very , very good . Supv Sumner asked for other comments on the proposed Subdivision Law or repeal of the Subdivision Ordinance. • Marty Moseley said he deals with zoning on a daily basis and it is up to interpretation of the zoning or planning department officer in charge . As far as boards arguing with individuals , that is not really the case once you want to build something. It is really open to interpretation by that department. They always have the right to ask for a board interpretation , but that takes time . Based on that, staff is not always sure what the original meaning was Supv Sumner asked for board comment. Cl Leifer said the point about the division between home occupation I and H , dwelling vs. residential property, is a good one . The point of the division in the existing zoning has more to do with the number of employees and number of visits to the property, not necessarily where the activity is being done (accessory building or within the home) . He doesn 't think it would be an issue to change it to residential property for home occupation 1 because in neighborhood residential it would not be any different than now. Once you reach 3 employees it triggers the next level . He said the centerline issue should be resolved and be defined . It would be helpful to explain it for setback issues and should be consistent everywhere . With respect to the issues that keep cropping up with open space, the county ag district and conservation district, he said the plan is to deal with that in the open space plan . Ag as M.kts will let us know what changes need to be made when they complete their review, and we can come back to that. • Public sewer and water facilities - the definition of will crop up in the conservation subdivision because of shared septic and wells . Supv Sumner said shared water and sewer is Page 9 of 11 TB 6-27- 12 • not permitted in Dryden yet. Mobile Home Parks are regulated by the health department. The board discussed the definition on page 13 and decided it was sufficient . Clarification of daycare center - the definition contemplates a facility as opposed to a home daycare. This is different than a home day care Larry Berger said his experience in various towns is that sometimes zoning comes from the approach of trying to protect neighbors from what they don 't like looking at or what they want to preserve looking at . What he thinks might help resolve some of the issues is if the board looks at it more from a health and safety perspective. Marty Mosely asked if the main concern with home occupation was traffic or is it multiple concerns. Supv Sumner said she would define it more broadly as neighborhood impact, and traffic is part of that . Cl Lavine asked if the only way to have this set up so that common sense can rule is to have it come under town scrutiny . Is the reason for rules so that there is discretion to use common sense instead of letting things happen helter- skelter. Supv Sumner said one goal of this proposal is to reduce the ambiguity. Cl Lavine said there will always be some ambiguity so common sense is what we hope will rule. We need rules in order to not allow random impacts . B Schickel said anyplace there is an X in the use table does not allow for interpretation. X means it is forbidden. One of the things they have tried to do is reduce the number of times that things are absolutely not permitted , possibly to give the town the latitude to say yes. Supv Sumner said they have had exactly the opposite comment from several people ; that allowing everything by special use permit gives the town too much discretion . • B Schickel said if they don't want the town to have too much discretion , you put in a P and it's allowed out of right. There is a balance between those two things. When there is an X you have to remember it is not allowed under any circumstance , and it ties your hands . He said for example, Grassmasters got approval the other night. They essentially have a contractor's yard. In a conservation zone he could have a contractor 's yard out of right, but is forbidden from having a retail business. It ties your hands . This is a business that is morphing into something else . The board can say no special use permit if it is changing the neighborhood too much . He and C Anderson tried to reduce Xs as much as possible to give board some latitude . The board discussed B&13 home vs . B&B establishment. B Schickel said these things are going to trip people up and they are suggesting more things be allowed by special use . He said he knows it is a lot, but it matters . Supv Sumner said so much discussion has gone into the reasons they are the way they are . They will be looking at this again . She understands the point about special use permits, but she thinks that leaves the ambiguity there . CI Lavine said it is a serious issue that X means never. She thinks what Bruno and Craig did is valuable . D Weinstein said one of the big changes is that they increased the number of places that uses were allowed by special use permit and they were previously not allowed . Xs are where people over and over again said it was not a use appropriate for that zone . B Schickel said he recognizes that took place , and they are suggesting there are still a few that need to be looked at. Page 10 of 11 TB 6-27- 12 • L Berger asked what the process will be when in the future what has been defined as a business is not the current vogue business model . Supv Sumner people can always come to the board and ask for an amendment . D Kwasnowski said they plan to review this every year. L Berger said in his experience, the Town of Dryden has been the best town he has ever worked with in zoning. Other towns want him to bring a certain type of business , but the business model is not what current zoning definition is . D Bravo- Cullen asked if the board can provide a concise reason for an X in a particular case . The public needs to understand the logic . CI Lavine said it seems reasonable to spell that out in some form so the public understands the intent. J Crawford said it is frustrating to be at public hearing and hear that the reasons for something were talked about so long ago that the people present can 't tell you what they are . We have to take in faith that there are reasons that can 't be expressed . Supv Sumner said many people in the public heard those discussions at open meetings . J Crawford said there should be spokespersons for why things are the way they are . Supv Sumner said this is not a question and answer thing, the board wants to collect comments and take them into consideration . There have been other public information meetings. B Schickel said another example of an X is that a library is forbidden in the neighborhood residential zone, rural agriculture , and in the conservation zone. You don 't want people to have to drive to everything, and the notion of the comprehensive plan was to make walkable, bikeable areas, and have a reduction on vehicle traffic for a community. He is not saying it should be allowed out of right , but if you forbid it , you can 't do it. The same thing is true with educational use . Montessori schools want to be located close to a neighborhood . S As written , educational uses are not allowed in neighborhoods. He said those should be changed to special use permit so you have options . You place restrictions on yourselves with Xs. H Kramer said there is no viable solution to this problem . If you put the X there , there is no flexibility . If you use a special use permit, then there is discretion and discretion lends itself to bureaucratic control. The problem is zoning itself here . Supv Sumner closed all public hearings at 9 : 50 p. m. The next step and first opportunity for Town Board action will be at the July 19 meeting. Respectfully submitted , 42,,tdfri Bambi L. Avery Town Clerk Poge 11 of 1 I