HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999-07-26TB 7 -26 -99
TOWN OF DRYDEN
TOWN BOARD MEETING
VARNA COIIMMUNITY ASSOCIATION
JULY 26, 1 999
Supv Schug opened the meeting at 6:35 p.m. Members and guests participated in a
moment of silence, followed by the pledge of allegiance.
Present: Supv Schug, Cl Tom Hatfield, Cl Charles Hatfield, Cl Deb Grantham Absent:
Cl Ron Beck Attorney Perkins arrived at 7:50 p.m.
Supv Schug - The purpose of the hearing was to continue the public hearing held on
May 21, 1998. The Planning Board has given their input and some of those board members
are present tonight. One of the problems we had was that we needed a good site plan and a
good map to work with and I understand we now have one. We'll first have Mr. Lucente's
engineers and architects go over what they have done so far and give us a run down of what
has happened. Feel free to ask questions if you like.
Doug Sutton - I'm the architect on the project. (Introduced Pat and Steve Lucente, the
owners of the project, Bob Harper, the site engineer, and John Stevens, Esq. of Williamson,
Clune & Stevens). The geotechnical engineer, Ray Teeter, and land surveyors, Williams and
Edsal, are not present. This is basically the same configuration and site plan that was
originally proposed. There are 170 units planned. It is a family apartment complex. It is
located on 12.3 acres and is in the RC Zoning district in the Town. Currently municipal water
and sewer exists and is accessible to the site. The concept was to take five building groups and
try to focus them inwardly around a pond and keep the internal part naturelike with walks
grass, ponds, and playgrounds interspersed among the five groups of housing units. There is
also acorn munity center, 4900 sq ft. 1000 sq ft of that will be used for real estate offices by
the Lucentes to deal with the project and the rentals. Unit mix consists of studio (25), 1
bedroom (35), 2 bedroom (85) and 3 bedroom (25) as proposed. Vehicular traffic would come
o$ of Route 366 and Mt Pleasant Road. There would be a road through the site with spurs off
it and parking into the different groups. We propose three kinds of pedestrian circulation. One
would be a sidewalk connecting 366 up through the site into each of the building groups and
through to Mt Pleasant. There would be internal sidewalks connected as well by a sidewalk
system. The other idea is to provide a pathway system that would connect with the Town trail
that goes through on the existing railroad tracks up above. Mr. Lucente will grant the Town an
easement to continue that trail. We would connect it with a path to the Community center on
the site and would continue down around the pond to a gazebo and then continue down and
connect to the community center in Varna. This would allow people down here to get back
through the site up on the public trail. There are also provided four dumpsters, accessible
from the vehicular circulation. Under zoning, a family unit requires one parking space per
unit. In terms of the community center it is one parking space for every 200 sq ft of building.
In terms of the office, it is one parking space for every 100 sq ft of office space, plus additional
parking space for each employee. This is what is required under the code. The community
center would require 20 and the office which has 4 employees per 8 hour period would require
14.
What we are providing is 25 for the studios, 35 for the 1 bedrooms, 85 for the 2
bedrooms, and 75 for the 3 bedrooms, for a total of 220, plus 20 for the community center and
14 for the office, for a total of 254. There will be 14 handicap spaces, which meets building
' code requirements.
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The idea is to build the project in five phases. We will put the road in, the main road
and Mam infrastructure, sewer and water, electrical, telephEme_ Then we will build it out in 3
phases, The mix is indicated on the chart, over a five year period,
Bob ]*earner, Delta Er int�e - My primary focus is storm water, as well traffic_
What I'd like to do is give you an update of what we've done since the last time we met_ 'W We
have surveyed this ,sight and adjoining properties (copy shown)- This gives us accurate
boundary information so that we know where of l the property lines are. This also gives us a 3 D
model of the site. What we are planet g on doing once we get approval far the project is to
actually model the site. Well have a 3D model of the Mite and we can rninimi the amount of
earth work by balanci the cut and fill to the site. We can also limit steep slopes and different
digs with the software.
-We also hired a geotech iral er4neer, Ray Teeter. Thirteen soil borings were taken at
the site to determination the ,soil composition, ground water depth, as well as the bearing
capacity of the soil_ No hazardous materials were found and the soil does lend itself to being
adequate for the foundations fnr this type of site ,
I warxt to touch nexit on the stormwater dzainuge plazas_ We have taken a close look at
this and I can't stress enough that the DOT has to approve these, the DEC has to approve
these, as well as the 'foots. A lot of people wil.) be looking at these_ You can't have any more
runoff on the site than presently exists today. The DOT wants to know this, and the )DEC, as
well as the Town, axed that is what these calculations represent. Basically what we have is a 70
acre drainage area up behind us. The primary source that this enters the site is through this
creep (indicates route on diagr2tm)_ CurTen.tly the way the runoff patterns for this site are, a lot
of the water does not go in the pond. Currently there has been some activity up them where
this water is now being able to sheet flow off the site into this low spot onto these properties.
We are proposing to acW ally construct a road in a way that would cut off this runoff and direct
it toward the pond where we could easily treat that stormwater and insure that the post
development run off will be less than pre - development. In addition to this vat are propvsi g to
divert some of the storm water around the pond. Currently you 've got x- number of gallons of
water that come down through there, Whether we develop this site or not they are still going to
run and continue to go to Fall Creek. So we are proposing to actually build a pipe there. Its
all within these ealculatiox�s and we have a drawing as well. We will construct a pipe to divert
some of the flow around the pond. We will still have sou►e of the flow going into to the pond to
maintain a wet poncl. The idea behind this is that we can then look at these impervious areas
and do a very good detailed analysis of this pond and aJso treat this stormwater. If we've got
lots of stQTMV.-ater running through this pond there is going to be very little retention time to let
the .sediment settle out and so forth, We are proposing to divert some of the flow, not all of the
flow. Some of the flow will go through the pored to maintain it wet.
I can't stress enough that we have to get a stormwater SPDES permit. 'I`his has to
happen prior to construction. They want to make sure a stormwater management plan is in
place both during construction and after construction when the entire site is built. Also, as
most of you know, this existing embankmezxt has failed. dater can now pretty much run right
through here. Because of this we will have to get a DEC dam permit. I have also noted here
that what defuses a dam is an embankment greater than ten feet, We will get a DEC dam
permit because this enmbsnkment is greater thaw ten feet, so the geotechnical engineer will
have to design this embarkment to withstand the force of this water and has to comply with all
the regulations that the DSC has and meet DEC dain guidelines. The same holds true for the
stormwater SPDES permit,
The DEC also acknowledges that they are involved and are vVe11 aware of the project, in
fact I called DEC today to get some input about a fence around the pond and I vvM get into that
a little later.
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• The next thing we did is we've gone through several revisions of the roadway design
calculations. The DOT has looked at this very closely, the town engineer has taken a close look
at it as well. Currently as it exists today on Route 366, an average of 6,800 cars go up and
down that road. My calculations, that have been approved by the DOT, show that in the
morning our peak hour is going to be 96 vehicles.
Bruce Gavett, 953 Dryden Road - Disagrees, feels that figure is way off.
B Harner - In the evening, the calculations show that we're at 102 vehicles per hour
during the peak. That doesn't mean that every hour you are going to see 102 vehicles in the
evening. Basically what that represents is you look at the morning traffic from 7 to 9 a.m. You
look at the 15 minutes increments and you determine what is the highest out of those. It is
not every hour you are going to see 96 vehicles or 102. This is the peak. The DOT reviewed
these calculations and we purported a level of service off 366 and the level of service does not
change from the cars we are adding. We also analyzed the intersection at 366 and the same
holds true. There is no significant impact according to what the DOT findings were. (Laughter)
You've got to remember that they look at the amount of cars that are going to stack up, they
look at the turning movements, they look at the gapping. They look at how much time a car
has to sit there. I would love to go through these with you line by line because these are
conservative calculations. I can't stress that enough.
David Weinstein, 51 Freese Road - I believe that you should explain that these
calculations are based on blue prints of cars from average apartment complexes throughout
the United States, and it says right in the highway manual that for apartment complexes that
have more extensive housing and are further away from commercial centers it is going to be
higher than the average. They tell you you can use the average because there is no other
is method to figure it out, but they do tell you in the manual that it will be higher than the
average.
B Harrier - I'd like to point out that this is a standard practice that has been used for
the last 50 or more years and it is a study that has been done and is used in counting traffic
whether it's a Walmart, a Burger King, a Home Depot or any other site. This is how traffic is
done around the United States,
ZO Henry Slater - I think the perception that you people were getting was that only 96
cars go by this road in any given hour and that wasn't what was meant.
B Harrier - No, the amount of cars that we are going to generate during this peak hour,
which is not a one hour period for sixty consecutive minutes. 96 cars will leave the site during
the peak hours is what we are saying. Back to your comment, David, the Traffic Engineer
Association which puts this manual together, and which is used by all the DOTS (the standard
manual that is used), basically studies apartment complexes similar to this one all across the
United States to get how the traffic is moving. We need to use some basis to come up with
traffic. This graph will show you that our number is well above the average (1 can sit down
with you afterward and show you how we calculated it). This line represents the average and it
is not based on the number of vehicles that are in the site, it is based on the number of units.
You look up the number of units, you come up the graph and go over, and youll find that we
are actually above this line from what we calculated. I can't stress that enough.
I'd also like to give you some examples of where we were conservative. We looked at the
worst possible scenario for these calculations. The first one here is that we calculated more
cars than what the average is. The second thing we did is said let's see what happens if all the
cars go out the 366 entrance and see if we can jeopardize the road and cause a significant
impact. So we looked at all the cars, 100% of these cars, going out on 366. Not only that we
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didn't evenly distribute the traffic. We said 90% of these cars would turn left and head to
Ithaca which is the worst movement you could have. 101'/o would go to Dryden. We also looked •
at it the other way, where 90'% � would go to Dryden and 10% would go Ithaca. That is a worst
possible scenario. That's assuming that this does not exist and looking at the gapping distance
and the different things that the DOT looks at, we are not impacting the road or this
intersection.
Erica Evans, 49 Turkey Hill Road - It doesn't matter whether they come down Mt
Pleasant or go out that way, they come within a very short distance, all onto Route 366. So
your "what if' doesn't really matter.
B Harner - I guess what I am trying to say to you is that we are looking at the worst
possible scenario. I can't be more conservative than saying 100%/u is going to go out this
entrance.
Susan Ashdown, 12 forest Lane - You are talking about numbers of cars and how you
can handle them without cutting down significantly on the amount of time you wait, but that is
not what we are talking about. We are talking about livability. We are talking about cars that
go by our house. We are talking about safety for pedestrians and safety for bicyclist. The level
of service could be fine according to your calculations, but the livability could be and probably
will be, miserable in terms of walkers, joggers, and bicycles. You goal is to keep traffic moving.
That doesn't appease us. We want a livable area
B Gavitt - Do you know how many school buses already make regular stops along 366
at this time?
B Harner - I don't know where they stop, but I do know they are involved in our
calculations, along with trucks, buses, etc. •
Larry Fisher, Turkey Hill Road - Will you explain how you do this calculation? Did you
lay down lines and make measurements?
B Harner - Physically what is done when you do an intersection analysis or level of
service what we do is request some traffic counts from the .DOT. Sometimes they have taken
place within the year. The other thing I would like to point out...
L Fisher - When was the traffic last counted?
B Harner - I believe it was 1998, but this is only one part and I would like to continue.
The DOT requires that you increase the traffic count 1 to 2% per year to reflect growth, etc. We
increased our numbers by 5 %. 1 would also lice to point out that we manually came out here
and counted traffic at this intersection. In order to perform an intersection analysis, you not
only need your traffics coming into the intersection, but you also need turning data, where are
the cars going. On April 13 of 1.999 we went out there and counted cars at all four legs of the
I
ntersection, left turn, through and right movements, both eastbound and westbound for
Freese Road, Mt Pleasant and 366 east and west bound. Our numbers were very close to what
the DOT had. In fact they were a little bit lower, but we increased them by 5% per year, so we
do have accurate counts for that road.
L Fisher - Can you be more specific? I can't stress enough how important it is for us to
have accurate data in which to base our comments. If you can say when you began the data,
at what time of day, the day of week they were done, that would be very helpful.
B
Harner -
I can tell you what we have here. We
not
only have
one
set of
data
from the
DOT, but
we have
six sets of data that the DOT provided
for
counts on
this
road.
We
then
•
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went out there and predicted movement from 7 to 9 am., that is your highest volume
typically, when people are going to work, and at night from 4 to 6 p.m. when people are leaving.
So we were most interested in the turning count and the movement at this point at those two
time frames. Again that was on April 13 of this year, Tuesday.
Audience member - was that during public school spring vacation?
B Harper - We talked with the DOT and they thought that that would be a good time to
do the study.
Harry Kesten, Turkey Hill Road - Do you have any data on how long it would take cars
before they could turn at that corner?
B Harper - With this calculation at Mt Pleasant and 366 we do look at the amount of time that
the cars stay there. That was all taken into consideration when the DOT approved these
calculations. They are not only concerned about the road, but they are concerned about the
traffic backing up at these intersections.
Howard Evans, Turkey Hill - There is obviously going to have to be a stop light here at
one point or another and once that stop light is there that means that traffic will have to wait
while motors are idling, and we have a pollution problem, we have a noise problem. Stop lights
have to be figured into this. Did you figure in a stop light and how long cars will be piling up?
B Harper - I did look at the numbers with respect to a stop light and they were far
below what is required for a stop light. Here's a letter from the DOT to David Weinstein dated
November 18, 1998. This was a complaint that he had about this intersection. The DOT
analyzed it and took a look at the numbers of traffic coming in. The DOT's findings about a
traffic signal at this intersection state " A traffic signal is not appropriate. Traffic volumes were
far below the minimum required for a signal'.
D Weinstein - That was a letter to me and it had nothing to do with this development.
They did not consider a development there because the question that I had written to them was
due to conditions right now aren't there so many accidents that it is a dangerous intersection.
I did not ask there about a traffic light. They came out and looked at the intersection right as it
exists today and said there hadn't been enough traffic accidents to have a traffic light. That is
all that they were interested in. You shouldn't be entering that into this issue because it has
nothing to do with analyzing what will happen after you have 100 plus cars coming out.
B Hamer - It does talk about volume. The volume was far below. The first thing that I
did was ask the DOT what is going to happen when we add the cars that are going to come
down here and they felt it was still below the volume needed for a signal.
B Gavitt - It takes more deaths.
Supv Schug - Sorry to say that is true. That's how traffic lights get where they are and
its too bad.
Laurie Snyder, 36 Freese Road - Freese Road frequently
past the one line bridge so that cars can creep up to get onto th
know that Mt Pleasant Road is impassable on a snowy morning
access on a snowy day. That means during higher volume they
What is the grade on your access road from the complex to 366
the grade on Mt Pleasant Road.
on a snowy morning backs up
e highway as it is now. I also
so that is not a reasonable
are going to enter on 366.
and how does that compare to
® B Harper - currently as it exists today without any work it, is a 1001c.) grade.
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L Snyder - And what is it on Mt Pleasant Road? •
B Harper - Currently on Mt Pleasant it is approximately a 14% grade up to this point.
L Snyder - And what is the grade from Freese Road bridge to 366?
B Hamer - I'm not sure.
L Snyder - Well, its enough to stop the traffic.
D Weinstein - I asked an engineer to estimate what the grade was from the topographic
maps. This is Tins Buhl of Resource Associates, and I have a letter from him that says the
grade as it currently exists on that piece is 301/o, and if you want to get it down to 10% I believe
he said it is going to take an 8 or 9 foot retaining wall cut into the hillside to get it down.
B Hamer -
Grade is nothing more than
rise over run. We can take a look at the length
and we can take a
look at the rise and the run.
Also I brought this in.
Grade is very hard to
understand, but I
do want you to know what a
10% grade is and what
a 30% grade is.
D Weinstein - Sure, but remember DOT requires that the low point on that access road
be 75' back from the highway, so you have to measure the grade from where that 75' point is
going to be and that's why you get into the 30% grade.
B Hamer - I asked the DOT that question this morning, and I have his number if you
would like that. I asked him about the requirement of the 75' distance you are speaking of.
What the DOT is most concerned about is the vertical profile within that range, so they are
looking at a smooth transition. Right now as this road exists there is about a 3 /4" per foot slope •
on that road, so we need to maintain that a certain distance until we can transition into our
turn. I asked them about this 75' distance and he wasn't sure what that meant. Basically
there is no requirement for it. We have to provide a smooth curve transition, a vertical curve at
this point. All of which will be approved at the highway road work permit when we get the
permit.
What I was hoping we could do at this point was address the concerns of the planning
board. They have addressed some concerns here and I felt that it would be good if we could
quickly go through them one by one and I will open it up to questions.
D Weinstein - Excuse me, but you do realize you are talking about a draft document so
you shouldn't say that this is the document of the planning board. The planning board had to
rush it to get the information to this meeting, but there are members who were not able to
comment yet on this.
B Hamer - Can we address these concerns on the draft?
Supv Schug - They are concerns, so we should talk about them.
B Hamer - Well go through them one by one. Doug will talk first.
D Weinstein - I wrote most of this. I would be willing to introduce the concern and then
you could discuss it.
B Hamer - I would like to go through this line by line and at the end well open it up for
discussion. 0
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D Weinstein -
I'm saying I could lay
out the
concern in the document and then you can
respond to it, rather
than you laying it out.
I have
a visual of it. (displayed)
Doug Sutton - As far as violating the Dryden General Plan recommended density, as far
as I could understand that source of 6 -10 persons per acre came from a master plan developed
in 1968. That predates the Town's adoption of the Zoning Ordinance. Under zoning currently
in an RC district, the 12.31 acres could accommodate 174 units. If we assume that those are 3
bedroom units and accommodated 2 parents and 2 children per unit, that would be a total of
696 people, yielding an effective density of approximately 56.5 people per acre, which is very
different from the 1968 Master Plan. That is what I am trying to make a point of
D Weinstein - Can we address this? This plan was done in 1968 by a group of people
who thought that this Town was going to grow to be 14,000 to 16,000. It is now a little over
13,000, so it wasn't that they mis- estimated that there was going to be this huge demand out
there. They overestimated the demand and they were specifically talking about Varna here.
Maybe if when they put the zoning in they decided to put in 25 different zoning areas, they
would have set up a specific zone for Varna. In this particular case it is one of the few places
in that document that they specifically mention a Village and they specifically say for Varna we
think the recommended density should be just a little over two families per acre, or 6 to 10
people.
D Sutton - I don't know why it changed from 6 to 10 per acre to what the RC Zoning
says ...
D Weinstein - We have four zones in the Town and RC has to cover all kinds of different
situations around the town. Here is a recommendation specifically for Varna. These people
getting together on the Planning Board saying this is what we think would make good livability
isin Varna.
D Sutton - I remember that very well, I was in school at that time and the history
between that and zoning I have no idea. The reality now is that under the zoning ordinance
this is permissible on that land.
D Weinstein - There is a huge difference between having a vision for an area and having
these regulations saying you can do all this under the regulations. The whole idea of plans is
to have a vision. It doesn't necessarily have to be codified under a very strict rule unless you
want to break the zoning into 25 different units.
D Sutton - I am not arguing with you about the idea or the notion. I also remember
when the Town put zoning in in the early 70's. It was a major problem.
The second point, growth would be unprecedented, 20 -30% of the entire county growth.
Specifically, in the graph it talks about the fact that Tompkins County has grown by a little
over 3,000 people in the last eight years. What is then said is that this development would
really have to accommodate approximately 1,000 people or a one -third of the increase, as I
read it. In order to address that what I did was a population projection, and it's only a guess
on my part. There are two scenarios, one for just students moved into the units and every
bedroom is occupied by a student. Presuming that students were to occupy the whole project,
one student per bedroom (that seems to be the formula in Collegetown when people are
building), you have a total of 305 people on that site. If you assume that families arc going to
in, with 25 studies and 35 one bedrooms, with the studios it is safe to assume that likely one
person might live in a studio. In the case of a one bedroom, it could be a married couple
sharing that bedroom or it could be one person, so I assumed that 17 of the 35 would be one
person and 18 would be two people, for a total of 53 people. In the two bedroom you have the
same scenario, how may children might these people have, one or two? I assumed that you
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would have 40 of the 85 units with two and 45 with three, for a total of 215 people. Going to
the three bedroom, again you might have a married couple in one bedroom, maybe one .
bedroom is a study. Let's say for argument's sake that a kid occupies each of the bedrooms,
you would then have 100 people. You then have a total of 393 people occupying the site. This
how I arrived at the figure. It is a long way from the 1,000 you were mentioning in your draft.
The project can't hold that many. I think its impossible unless you put 15 people in a
bedroom.
Further on well talk about net costs and estimate how many children are six years and
older and how many are below six. I think we all have to look at it and get a grasp of how
many people will be there.
Judy Taylor - Is a teacher in the district and does home visits. Have seen a lot of two
bedroom apartments where they have two sets of bunk beds in a room for four kids. You don't
just have one child in a bedroom when you are trying to go for cheap.
D Sutton - That is a valid point and we certainly could bump some of the numbers by
that.
J Taylor - Sometimes people are sleeping on the couch or on the floor.
D Sutton - I guess one way to address that is that I know the grade of the project Mr.
Lucente is planning and perhaps the rents will prevent people from doing that. We have to
speculate, but I don't believe that that will happen.
Marcia Torrence, Deer Haven Drive - I have townhouses that. we rent out. We always
rent to a husband and wife and a child, but right now we have a husband, wife and six
children. We try to rent to not more than two students, but it always ends up that more people .
are living there. Families grow. We have a clause in the lease that if anyone else stays in the
house more than two weeks, it costs them $400 per month extra. It doesn't help. So I don't
believe it, and I know Mr. Lucente has a ton of apartments and must have encountered the
same things.
Pat Lucente - I do most of the renting for our company, and I can say that 95% of the
one bedrooms and studios are rented to people without kids in my experience. Maybe in the
three bedrooms you may have three kids or four kids. I would say that having six kids is not a
typical situation.
D Weinstein - I think you are missing the point. Even if it is say, 500, that is 201/0 of
the growth of the entire County for eight years. You are talking about taking 201/6 and
dumping it in Varna in one fell swoop. And that is after we have already had two other
developments just come in that have added 28 units in one and something like that in the
other. Varna only has about 200 livable units right now if count dwelling units on the
assessment map. You are talking about doubling the number of living unit's in this small
community in one fell swoop. That's the point.
D Sutton - That is over a five year period as is the other over 8 years. Let's face it, we've
got to replace housing in this county. You can't just let it all deteriorate. It's a process of
replacing housing. It would be wonderful if people went into the units that they had and
upgraded, but sometimes it is financially impossible.
D Weinstein - The developments on the outskirts are making it more financially
impossible because they are causing the vacancy to skyrocket at those locations and those
landlords are saying they don't have the extra cash to finance an upgrade. They are trying to
make better housing much closer in to the city center so that people don't have to drive. There
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are efforts to do that and the Tompkins County Landlords Association says they are being
stressed by these kinds of developments on the outskirts.
D Sutton - Assuming an increase of 1,000, you go on to say in the next paragraph that
such growth would be necessary to meet the demand and the developer is showing no evidence
of demand. I would say that anyone who is going to do a project of that scale and go to a
lender and put his whole life on the wire, that is pretty good evidence that there is a demand.
D Weinstein - There are two different kinds of demands. You can get people to smoke,
it may not be good for them but there is a big demand for smoking. That doesn't mean that if
you build a nice looking apartment complex people are going to want to leave their other place
because this is a little bit nicer. That is not a demand, that is a strain on the whole system
because you are drawing people away and you are now letting those other landlords have
enough apartments filled so that they can do the work and make their places nicer. You can
always make nicer places and draw people in. I have no doubt this development may have
plenty of people in it, but that doesn't mean it works when you look at the whole system.
D Sutton
-1 don't think
it is
up to our government in this country. If we lived in a
socialist country
where we
provided
housing for everyone ...
Susan Ashdown - The government does social engineering everytime they set up the
highway amount and ...
D Sutton -1 am not going to argue with you. We are trying to provide better housing
and I think that is a worthy thing. I just think that if anybody is willing to put up this kind of
money and risk on a long term project, you don't see money out of a project like this for years.
® Bruce Sternberg, 7 Turkey Hill Road - So this project is all being done by great human
benefactors.
D Sutton - No, it's being done in a capitalist society to make a profit.
M Johnson, Mt Pleasant Road - We have to live here and we really are not here to serve
other people. We are here to live a good life and this is very difficult, to enable other people to
fulfill a capitalist dream. Our lives will be downgraded and we are upset about it and we would
like to have some input into it. This is a democracy in a country where people have a right to
be heard and to make an impact on decisions. That's what we are asking for here, and I find
your attitude very patronizing. Give us a little more respect.
D Sutton - I don't mean to be. Shall we go on to costs.
D Weinstein - Distributed copies of Tompkins County Landlords Association piece that
says vacancy rate is high.
D Sutton - The third point - costs to Dryden residents $1.21 for every dollar in tax
revenue. I understand that was done by Cooperative Extension. I'm sure their data is good
and its well done. However, you have to look at this project and remember a number of things.
Water and sewer is already in, that is not a cost that will be born for the town. It is already
there, they will recoup money from it. That data also is pretty common across the country for
residential development. I believe that that is based on far less dense development, most of
them with less than 80 units. I am not so sure about that being an accurate cost.
D Weinstein - That study was done in every town in Tompkins County and for every
® town, including Ithaca which must have big developments in it, they found the cost of
developments like this was greater than what you got for it in tax revenues.
Page 9 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
D Sutton - And they did not look at the cost of building infrastructure. •
D Weinstein - All they did was look at town budgets, how much it cost for police, fire,
etc, (services that the town provides), how much it costs for their salaries and all of those
things that the Town provides and then look at how much revenue comes from the residential
section, how much comes from the commercial section etc, and do a simple calculation. For
these kinds of residential areas do you get more tax revenue than you are apt: to spend in
supporting that? The study indicates that it costs you $.21. In other words the town has to
subsidize this kind of development. Now that is okay if the town really wants the development.
It's okay for the town to say we are willing to pay for this because this is where we want to
grow. That is very different.
D Sutton - This density is different than a subdivision. The other thing to remember is
in this project the road is being provided by the developer, his is going to own it and he is going
to maintain it. The town will not bear the expense of that.
D Weinstein - No, the town gets the cost of repairing all the other roads that these
people will drive on. It is going to increase traffic dramatically. On 366 by 6 %, we know that,
or more, 15 %. No study shows that a residential unit such as this will pay for itself. Studies
show that the town has to subsidize developments like this.
D Sutton - The other thing you talk about is that the hamlet won't benefit itself because
people are going to Ithaca to purchase things. I would say to you, if you bring people in here
that sales tax revenues will increase. The other benefit that the hamlet could have is ...
Jim Skaley, 940 Dryden Road - So what you are saying is that the sales tax revenues
that will be generated by these people will come back to the Town of Dryden and then somehow
back to the hamlet of Varna.
D Sutton - They come back to us in terms of lower taxes.
Jim Skaley - If there is no net gain then that argument is useless.
D Sutton - That's right.
J Skaley - If you are moving people from one location to another within the county it
won't make a difference.
J Gates, Lucente Homes -
The vision of 6 to 10
people per acre will encourage urban
sprawl which puts a
greater stress upon infrastructure
because people have to drive further to
get where they want
to go. If you
bring people into the
center, that would be ....
E Evans - This isn't the center.
D Weinstein - You are ignoring the fact that Cornell is building new housing. There is
expansion of East Hill Mall, of the elder housing. There is development going in closer to the
Ithaca center so the people going to those places are not driving as far. They don't have to
come out to developments here. The idea of development that I think these people were
thinking in terms of was more like what already is going on Mt Pleasant Road which is about 2
dwelling units per acre. That is the vision that the Dryden General Plan has for what Varna
should look like. There is not a huge demand for housing. The population of the county has
increased by 3,000 in eight years.
Pagc 10 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
J Gates - For someone who picks up a phone about 300 tunes a day in a real estate
office, I would disagree with you.
S Ashdown - Every single year we have tons of people moving into this town and moving
out of this town. That doesn't say we need more housing. We certainly don't need more away
from services. Varna is away from services. Everyone will drive to work, drive to the grocery
store, drive to the movie house, drive everywhere they go.
D Sutton -
Cayuga
Heights Elementary school. I'm not sure about
the capacity. The
teacher to student
ratio is
very high. (Audience member indicates school is full)
D Weinstein - Residents of Varna are terrified that they will have to change schools.
D Sutton - Ultimately it is the school board that makes those decisions.
B Harper - The next item is the dangerous intersection at Route 366. One thing that I
did today was talk to the DOT. I talked to Tom Corey who reviewed our calculations and I
asked him to review this statement by you. There are a lot of things here that are false and he
pointed them out very quickly. For example, we state that there is going to be 100 to 120 cars
turning left from our site. Our calculations show that while we are showing that 100% will go
out of the site, 90% would turn left, it only equates to 62 cars.
D Weinstein - That's true, but I keep coming back to the point I made earlier. I just
looked at how far above the average your estimate is and it is just above the average. Again,
the highway capacity manual says that for these kinds of developments, far away from
commercial centers, it will be considerably above the mean in terms of the number of trips
generated from the site. They don't say how far, but the range given for this size development
in the Highway Capacity Manual is anywhere from 70 on the low side to over 180 on the high
side. So going up to 120 from 100 is not unbelievable. Get 90 cars then turning and you are
up to somewhere between 100 and 110 as far as those that have to turn toward Cornell.
S Ashdown - Believes the number of cars these people will own and use is under-
estimated by about 100, based the information presented about families.
B Harner - The
way these calculations
are
derived is
based on the amount of units and
on a national average.
Some units will have a
lot
more cars
or less.
S Ashdown - You're saying that a two bedroom unit is never going to have more than
one car.
B Harper - No. My calculations show ...
S Ashdown - You allow one car per two bedroom unit.
Marcia Torrance, 37 Deerhaven Drive - There are nine 9 houses on Deerhaven Drive
and we have 25 cars between 9 houses.
S Ashdown - You are basing this on national averages, and we have a high proportion
of students. Students have cars. Averages don'[ work for these things.
Larry Fisher, 112 Turkey Hill Road - I think it is also important to point out in terms of
these calculations the term that's used in that phrase is "danger". That is a qualitative term.
Anybody that comes down Mt Pleasant Road or up Freese Road knows that these are
® dangerous turns. In addition to calculations I'd also like you to address the concerns about
danger, visibility, accessibility, grade, winter conditions, summer conditions, etc.
Page I I of 26
TS 7 -26 -99
B I•Iarner - I daily go back to the approval that I got from the DOT. Sight distance takes
into consideration all of these conditions.
B Sternberg - People are talking about specific situations. They are talking about the
character of these particular intersections. They are not talking about numbers per hour.
They are saying that this particular site has its own character. Do your numbers reflect that?
You keep reciting them over and over, but it doesn't sound like in any way you are reflecting
the conditions that the people here have to face or the projected population of that development
will have to face when they are driving down Mt Pleasant or when they are having to drive up
Freese Road. It is a different situation.
B Harrier - I was born and raised in Ithaca, I've built houses in this area, I've driven
the area. Dave, we've done everything. We went out there, we've done site visits, could you
add something to this to try to address the traffic concerns.
D Putnam - The Freese Road Mt Pleasant Road intersection was looked at rather
extensively at the request of the DOT. They control the intersection. Granted, it is not the best
intersection in the world, but the improvements will have to come from the DOT. The impacts
that this development is having on that intersection are minimal from the calculations and the
extra turning movements that they've been asked to look at by the DOT. The DOT will address
potential improvements at some point in the fixture. They are saying that nothing is required
now.
Judy Taylor - That intersection is very dangerous in the winter with cars sliding
backwards and I've been there when there have been five or six cars all over the place trying to
get up. People try to avoid it.
L Snyder -
What
is the number of
bedrooms,
because I
think
that number times two is
going to equal the
cars.
I think you
have
to assume
two cars per
bedroom.
D Sutton - There are 305 bedrooms.
L Snyder - My second point is I've lived on Freese Road for 28 years and I pride myself
on living in one of the oldest houses in the neighborhood by a one lane bridge. I would be very
distressed if the DOT would recommend because of increased traffic, etc a two lane bridge
which would increase the speed of the traffic on Freese Road making the neighborhood not an
agricultural neighborhood. We like having slow traffic and we don't want more traffic.
S Ashdown - If you make it a two lane bridge and improve the capacity of the road, then
someone would want another development
Supv Schug - DOT would not recommend a. two lane bridge on Freese Road because
they don't own Freese Road, the Town of Dryden owns it.. There won't be any problem with a
one lane bridge on Freese Road,
Laurie Robinson, Deerhaven Drive - We are not just talking about exacerbating an
already dangerous intersection, we are talking about adding two more potentially dangerous
intersections and not just the one on 366. The point at which they want to enter Mt Pleasant
Road is one of the worst spots. It is very narrow. As you come over the crest of the hill often
the apartments on the right have cars that have rear ends out on Mt. Pleasant Road. You have
joggers, dog walkers, and bikers. Now they are talking about complicating that further by
having more cars coming onto Mt Pleasant Road and then trying to negotiate the grade and the
dangerous intersection at the end.
Page 12 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
B Harrier - We have to provide the required site distance and in fact we can provide
is more than the required site distance both up and down the hill. So those site distances are
required and have been provided. We will have to do some minor brush clearing in this area,
possibly relocate a guide rail and also change the profile to raise the intersection and change
the location of the ...
D Weinstein - The County Planning Department said today that you guys have not
provided an adequate solution to that site problem and they are disagreeing that you have a
solution as to how you arc going to make this entrance.
B Harrier - That is correct.
Supv Schug - They are with us, too. We haven't seen anything. This is the first time
we've seen this revision. We don't have any drainage plans. There is a lot of things we haven't
seen either. We needed to have this meeting to talk out what is happening and review what
we've done so far. That is why all your input and information is important. We are going to
have to go through the SEQR program and if we get done soon enough tonight I'd like to go
over part one so if there are disagreements in part one, now is the time to find them. Not when
we get into part three.
D Weinstein - I would like to go through this graphic. The NESTS study said there are
880 cars in a peak hour here. You guys had 800. Somewhere between those two numbers.
880 cars is approximately 4 seconds between cars. I challenge you to sit where you want to get
out onto the road and count 4 seconds. Watch a car and see how close that car is to you when
it is 4 seconds away and figure these guys are going to have to get out onto the road that way.
I used 120 cars needing to get out in that peak hour in the morning. You say less than that. If
its 100 cars they have something like 35 -40 seconds to get out. I think 120 is a more realistic
number. The cars have 30 seconds to get out of there. If they don't get out in 30 seconds they
are going to start backing up, and in 30 minutes they will be 30 cars deep and they only have
four seconds of gap to get out in there. I don't see how this works. Even if they split going
both ways it will be a problem. Many of these points have been made already, but this exist is
just at the lip of that little hill. You'll have to gun up if you are trying to get up particularly
when it is icy. The calculations on sight distances were not made considering icy conditions
even though this is a north facing slope. It is steep above, so cars come down fairly fast and
they can't see well. It is a horrible place for an exit/ entrance and I don't know how you can
solve that.
B Harrier - I'd like to address the cars backing up. There are several things that you
are assuming are going to happen. The first is that this happens within a sixty minute period.
The peak is 15 minute increments within a time frame. So the peak doesn't happen between 0
to 60 minutes. Also, I talked to the DOT. I showed them this directly and asked them if they
were concerned about cars backing up and what can be done. I tried to get their opinion
before I gave them my comments and they said that they looked at gaps and they looked at
turning limits, how much time cars have to get out, etc.
D Weinstein - Their letter to you guys simply says that traffic on Route 366 will not be
impacted. That is the only thing that they are concerned about in doing their calculations.
They want to know if there will be 1256 cars on Route 366 with the additional cars from this
development because that is what throws them over the threshold in to more stop and go
traffic. As long as you are below that 1256 (and if you add 880 and 120 you are) they're fine. 1
can guarantee you they didn't look at this exit because the map that you guys sent them has
the exit on Molly Case's land. They are not studying this exit.
® B Harrier - The DOT made a direct comment about the encroachment that we had on
Molly Case's land. They asked that we revise that. We have revised it and given it to the Town.
Peage 13 of 26
TB 7 -2649
It has been included. It is no longer encroaching that property. You state that the DOT did not
evaluate whether there would be a problem with the cars attempting to get out of the site. I •
contacted Traffic & Safety at the DOT, Tom Corey. He said this is one of the things that they
definitely have to look at. They are not only concerned about the level of service on the road,
but they are looking at the site and everything. When you say they are only approving the level
of service of 366, they are approving these documents which analyzes ....
D Weinstein - I don't think
I have to
read you their letter.
I'm sure you've read it
yourself. It says as far as we can
see based
on your data, we see
no impact on Route 366.
They don't say anything in that
letter about
cars trying to get on
to Route 366.
13 Harrier - They have approved this. They 've looked at. I've asked them that question.
Did you look at cars backing up and they said yes.
D Weinstein - You guys don't say anything about cars backing up.
B Hamer - It is in the calculations. There is critical gap distances and time to get out
and so forth. When you say there is 100 to 120 cars, we are showing based on our
calculations that we feel are conservative, 62 cars will make a turn movement to the left.
That's assuming that 100% of the cars are going to use this entrance.
Martha Case, 953 Dryden Road - I have lived there since 1939 and I know what the
traffic is through here. In the wintertime they are backed up the hill here, they are backed up
there, and it is an hour before cars go either way. I know what 366 is. I have lived here a long
time.
Elizabeth Case, Burdett, New York - I am Molly granddaughter. Regarding the exits on
366 that goes by her property, on a Sunday evening between 6 and 7 when my husband and I •
leave her house to go home, I can sometimes wait there between I and 2 minutes to get out of
her driveway. That is not even peak traffic hour.
B Harner - The next comment I would like to address is the steepness at 366 here. I
have a calculator and I'd be glad to sit down with you afterward and we can calculate the
existing 10% grade. When we get done this grade will definitely be less than that. We are
going to model this site. We are going to limit the grade here. You can't drive a car up there
today.
The next question talks about flooding coming down the entrance here. That is a big
concern and I would like a chance to address that before others jump in. Like I mentioned
before, a lot of this water runs over the site as it exists today. We are going to stop the flow of
water with catch basins etc and get the water to the pond where it can be treated and
contained in the pond. Some of the water can't get into the pond and has to run down hill. I
talked with the DOT and there is a series of culverts that runs on this side of the property. It
starts up here at Mt Pleasant Road, a 12" corrugated steel pipe, there is a series of catch
basins as it comes down. It gets bigger to an 18" pipe and I think the outlet is a 24" pipe and it
outlets into the Varna Inn into an open ditch. I talked to the DOT and the DOT said to me that
they wouldn't have a problem with us putting the water into that existing system. They want
to make sure that pre and post development conditions are maintained. When we go for the
highway work permit the DOT will look at that very closely and we certainly will continue to
keep this water from going to 366 and this water that has to go down the hill will get into the
storm system. The DOT said that if there is no other place to get this water in a ditch the only
other way to get it out of there is to pump it back up to the pond. They said that doesn't
happen, we can get into our existing storm system. I wanted to make that very clear.
Pale 14 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
Geoff Potter, Dryden Road - What about snow removal? If we have a year like 93 you're
• going to have a lot of snow. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to put salt on the
asphalt up there that will leak down through the ground?
B Harper - Certainly one possible solution is to truck it away. Another possible
solution would be to lose a few parking spots. Another solution would be to push the snow
over the bank and let it melt. I've got to caution you that we are going to reduce the amount of
water that goes over the embankment, so if we were to put a small amount or even a large
amount of snow over here, the amount of water that would run off the site would still be less.
So certainly you could push the snow to other areas. Snow removal would not be a problem.
B Gavitt - Do you know where a. lot of the water goes right now? In the basements of
the homes along Route 366.
B Harper - That's correct.
B Gavitt - And you are going to change it all so none of it will go there.
B Harper - I'm not saying that none of the water is going to go there. I don't know what
you don't understand about a barrier at this point and limiting the water from going into the
basement. You are still going to have water that hits this slope and is going to run down, but
certainly it is going to be a lot less area. than what you have up here that can run over there.
M Case - Where is the water going to go during a spring thaw? It is not going to flow
uphill without a pump.
B Harper - So what you are
saying is that
the
70 acre watershed
here
is going to enter
® the site here. Some of the water is
going to go in
the
pond, some of it is
going
to be diverted.
M Case - Some of it is going to go right into my basement.
B Hamer - Right, and what we are saying to you is that the extra water that we are
going to make from this impervious surface will go into this DOT ditch.
M Case - As dry as it is right now my pump runs three or four times a day and the
water table is low. The water is coming from somewhere, I don't know where, but my pump is
running two or three or four times a day, plus in the evening.
B Harner - Makes you wonder if the ground water is high at the point.
B Gavitt -
It is high
where you
are proposing too. 1 walked up there, took a stick, put it
down
and
more than
three
feet of the
stick was wet.
D Weinstein - Water right now is moving in a sheet through this site. It is showing up
in the basements when there is no rain. It is moving under the site and you are going to take
whatever additional water there is and try to channel it around the site. All of your
calculations are assuming you can prevent any uphill water from entering the site. All the
pond water has to just be the runoff from the site. So you are going to channel all around the
site and there is no way you can avoid increasing the flow in the stream that goes below the
site, particularly during peak events.
$ Harper - We can't increase what is already there today.
Page 15 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
D Weinstein - But you will. There is no way you can avoid doing that. The water is
moving through the site now. The site is actually acting as somewhat of a buffer. You are •
going to channel it. You are going to increase the flow around it.
B Harner - What you are assuming is that the water sheet flows over this whole site.
What I am telling you is that there is a large berm here. The water enters at this point here, so
we are going to carry all the water on to our site and bypass it at this point. Assume for
example that there is 100 cubic feet of water per second entering the site today as it exists.
There is going to be 100 cubic feet per second entering into this pond as it exists today. What I
am proposing to you is that with 100 cubic feet entering a portion of that, whether it is 80
cubic feet per second, will be diverted around the pond and 20 cubic feet will be going through
our pond so that you will have the same flow that goes in coming out. We can create a storm
water system for a 70 acre water shed. What we are responsible for is the impervious which
would generate more storm water must be contained in the pond so that our post development
condition does not exceed our pre development condition. All of this will be approved by the
DEC.
D Weinstein - I'm sure the DEC are wonderful people, but you cannot escape the fact
that water is flowing through the site and you are going to channels it around so that at peak
events that water is going to flow. And your own calculations say that you are not trafficking
water from upstream. I don't know where this sudden diversion came from, your hydrology
report says all of the water that goes into the pond is from those eight acres and that you
create as a watershed on your site. So you are bypassing the site with any upstream water,
and you've got a stream that already has very high flood problems and in fact, you guys vastly
underestimated the growth potential of that downstream stream. (Graphic presented) I
plugged your numbers into the TR 55 and produced this curve, which is the same curve that
you have in your report. I calculated the capacity of the stream below. On your report during
the 1996 flood when we had the equivalent of 4.6 inches of water flowing down, you say that
that channel down there just barely flooded. In fact that road had two and three feet of water
on it because you vastly underestimated how much water was coming down from that 70 acre
watershed. That is a long watershed, big gradient, a lot of water moves through there. The
reason you miscalculated it is that in your hydrology report you say that this is woods and
grass. (Pictures presented) This is clearly a cultivated field. You needed to use a much higher
number. In fact when you plug in a higher number, you get the flow that happened in 1996.
You get a flood that looks like that stream actually flooded. The other thing you did not
consider was that 1996 flood wasn't a 25 year rain event. It was 4.6 inches because it was 1.9
inches on top of a 2.7 -inch snowcap. We have snowcaps here when we get our big rains and
none of your hydrology estimates calculate the fact that you melted all that water all of a
sudden. So what you have here is a big watershed with a huge flood potential if you actually
go up to the higher floods. You have a huge flood potential here and you are channeling water
around a site. You are moving water faster downstream. You 've got a big flood problem here
and you are only exacerbating a really bad flood condition.
You need to recalculate your numbers using the appropriate characterization of the
water shed and you need to realize you have a big problem. You can't allow this water to go
onto your site because you are going to have basements flooded and all kinds of problems, but
you can't bypass the water either.
Supv Schug - David, they 've got to show us with calculations, drawings, etc. It all has
to be done, and I'm sure it will be.
Erica Evans - I know that the water doesn't run uphill. Also each of those roofs, the
snow and the water will come down and add to whatever you've already done.
Page 16 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
G Potter - Varna Auto down here is about ready to lose the motel if something is not
done about the creek. You are diverting water around that complex, going to make it go down
and around. Take a heavy rainstorm in the spring and the creek is overflowing and actually
flooding 366.
B Harper - I can't stress enough that if we do nothing that same condition is going to
exist. My calculations show that we are not going to add more water to what is there today.
Also I would like you to know that we contacted DEC to see if they would have a problem with
cleaning that ditch out if necessary.
G Potter - I tried to get that one cleaned out and the one on the corner cleaned out for
the past seven years.
B Harner - the DEC or the Corps won't clean it out. You have to get a permit and do it.
The State right of way is 50', and there is a lot longer ditch than that 50'. We did look at
cleaning that ditch out.
D Weinstein - You need to clean out two feet, which you couldn't maintain at all. I
think you guys proposed cleaning out something like 6 inches. Even if you clean it out two
feet, you couldn't possibly accommodate the water that is coming down through there that you
will accelerate by channeling around the site.
B Harper - Again,
the
DEC is the
expert. They are the ones that will approve it and say
whether
this
is correct
or
not.
I
will
have
to
let
them
decide.
Marshall Taylor, 61 Turkey Hill Road - I was concerned when I looked at the previous
hydrologic study simply because they did not do a full, proper pre and post analysis and they
® tried break the watershed into the upper watershed and on -site. I think they clearly showed
with their own specifications that they would not increase a ten year event onsite. What they
clearly haven't established is that all of that upstream contribution is immediately being
passed through their site now, as opposed to routed through as if it were being routed through
their pond. In fact, for the Board's consideration and for the developer's consideration, I would
ask that you consider exactly that— designing your pond so that you do not divert the water
from the upstream site around the pond. That is clearly where the problems exist. Consider
your pond design, outlet design, etc and put that. water right through...
B Harper - The pond will have to be ...
M Taylor - I understand what that will do with the current outlet design to the pond
site.
Dick Crepeau, 112 Mt Pleasant - I had a question on a slightly different slant that 1
would direct to the Board. That is what do you listen to in terms of the discussion that goes on
here? Clearly your charge is to make sure that all the is are crossed and all the I's are dotted.
The DEC approves this and somebody else approves that. Is that all you do, or do you listen to
these extraordinary cases? The gentlemen here was talking about the flooding at the motel.
That is not going to impact any thing the DEC looks at. They are not going to know about that.
They are going to look at charts and calculations. They don't see that that is a real possibility,
but you have heard it here tonight. The question is does the Board go beyond crossing the T's
and dotting the I's, even to the extent where they might look at this and say "Well, for this
particular zoning you are allowed to have so many units per acre. YouVe asked for exactly that
many units, within the law, but we are going to approve half that number because we feel that
is a safe way to go instead of taking chances and pushing the limits." It's not just a question of
what are we here for.
Page 17 of 26
TB 7 -26-19
Supv Schug - Right now the board will take a look at everything. We haven't seen all
the paperwork we'd like to see either, the drawings and calculations or whatever. The Town •
Board will take into consideration the Environmental Assessment form and the questions it
asks. You talk about cutting the project in half. If for some reason we have reason to ask Mr.
Lucente instead of 170 apartments to make it 140 or whatever for a good reason, he would
probably do it if he still wanted to build his project. If we can mitigate the problem, we talk
about the water coming down the hill and the dam and everything, and I understand fully what
that means. I know what the people who live along this stretch here have had to put up with
as far as water in their basement. The board is going to want: to take that into consideration
and they are going to want to clean that up. We have to talk about what happens to the water
that gets bypassed to the creek if they do that and if so, what can be done downstream. If you
are going to cause it to happen upstream, then they'll have to fix it downstream. The people in
this room are not going to pay for it, the Town of Dryden is not going to pay for it. There is
only one person who is going to pay for it (indicating Mr. Lucente) and he will pay to do it
properly. It may call for easements so that it can be maintained. We had to do that right up
the road with Oakbrook Drive. If that's what we have to do here and if it is reasonable for
Steve to do that, well do it.
Erica Evans - Do you know, all these things like the drainage and the water and all of
those things are not nearly as important to most of us as the quality of life, the amount of
noise, the amount of traffic and the change of this whole area We hope that the Board will
consider these things.
Alice Humerez, 904 Dryden Road - When we moved here 26 years ago, we had a
problem with the water coming through the sluice and flooding our yard and Mary Potter's
yard. For years we went through this and it took two years to get a permit from the Corps to
make a straight line to make a ditch. We paid $2,000 to take care of the problem and hope
that we won't have problems again. •
Mary Potter, 902 Dryden Road - Does it make any difference that this little ditch that is
not very wide is on private property? It travels down the road and under the road and into a
ditch that cost $15,000 to have fixed. The landlord shouldn't have to do that. I get water from
up here and I get water from Lucente's other property. That has changed since he did build. I
had to spend over $3000 to put new culverts in because they told me that it was the landlord's
problem, that you had to get the water to the creek. I don't want any more water.
A Humerez - The church has had over three feet of water in it and we had to spend
$2,500 to take care of the damage.
Judy Taylor - Asked how many parking spaces are currently provided and was told the
number was 254.
B Harner - 204 is the town requirement and we are providing 254.
Art Lecoq, 935 Dryden Road - Has spent $7,000 in ditch work and has had up to eight
feet of water in his basement.
Debby
Lecoq - I
know you have to go by all those
figures, but what is reality? Reality is
having to deal
with the
flooding and the traffic issues on
a daily basis.
Mike Hovanec - I own property on Mt. Pleasant Road. I have been involved with several
projects and these things don't just pop up overnight. If things don't get resolved, it doesn't get
built. There are problems that will pop up during construction. Up on Mt Pleasant Road when
we built the road we found some springs. That had to be taken care of. I think the flooding
Page 18 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
issues in any development are taken care of along the way. If there are any problems that pop
up I think you can rest assured that it will be taken care of.
Supv Schug - I think the people here want to see the engineers going to work with their
eyes wide open and to try to mitigate the problems as much as possible. The Town isn't going
to go halfway with mitigating the project.
Mike Hovanec - Realistically, there are going to be problems that pop up. Steve knows
that and the engineer knows that. Every site is unique. I think that is a beautiful site. When
this site is built you are going to hardly know it is there. It is really not that big of a project.
I've seen 200 unit developments go in. When we done all these emotional issues about traffic
and about flooding go away. You hardly know the development is there. The neighborhood is
improved by better construction and housing. Steve is a good neighbor. I think you'll find
that. The engineers will deal with the problems unique to the site.
Dawn Potter - There didn't used to be a pond on that hill. Molly and church did not
have water in their basement and Mary Potter did not have flooding. Common sense tells me
that the water in the basements comes from a problem with the pond. Now you are saying you
want to divert water and put more water into the pond than it has ever seen before. I don't
understand. Don't you have to drain this pond and do something to it? How are you going to
accomplish that?
B Harper - There has been a lot of activity up there that changed where the water flows
over the years. You can't just say that the pond caused the problem. The pond is a mitigating
factor here. The pond will hold the water that is generated from the site so that when it leaves
it is going to be equal or less than what it is today. There currently is a lot of water moving
toward those people's basements and that is probably what is causing the water in the
basements. We're going to cut a lot of that water off and divert if.
Jim Skaley - You keep talking about that drainage and that you are going to have a
barrier, but if you look at that topo sheet, the property slopes down and most of your
development is on the down side of that pond, so I just don't understand how you can say that
the water is going to go into this pond, unless you are going to grade that site so that it slopes
back toward the pond.
B Hamer - We will be regrading this entire site.
J Skaley - Will it be regraded so that it all slopes back toward the pond?
B Harper - It may
not all
have to
slope back.
You can
change the depth of the pond.
You can do a lot of things
to see
that the
water stays
in the
pond.
J Skaley - If you change the depth of that pond I suspect. that you are going to start
getting into a different situation and need a dam permit in regard to how much water capacity
you are going to hold up above a residential area.
B Harper - If anything this embankment will be less. It would grade down this
embankment as well. If we are going to regrade this site all this is going to change. We can
retain more water, but the area is so small that there is not a lot of water that you have to
retain.
J Skaley - But you are creating an impervious surface. That water is going to drain
more rapidly someplace and unless you regrade that site so that it all goes back to the pond. I
®don't see how you are going to use the pond as a storm storage device.
Page 19 of 26
TB 7- 26-99
B Harner - That is our intention, to regrade the site.
J Skaley - I know it is your intention to regrade the site. I just don't see how it makes
sense with what youVe presented so far, unless you have more detailed engineering specs to
enlighten me.
D Weinstein - This came up before the planning board and you seemed to at that point
say after you know the project will go ahead then you will do the detail grading plan. In talking
with a Cortland engineer he said a Cortland municipality wouldn't even begin to consider doing
SEQR on a project before they actually had a grading plan in hand, where the cuts were going
to be, where the fill was going to get deposited. When can we get that?
B Harrier - I can only tell you the past history of our firm. We are not going to design
this 100% not knowing if we have a project. That is a huge, huge expense. What we are saying
to you is that we are going to meet all these requirements, but we will provide the grade plan
after we get approval.
D Weinstein - But we don't know if you can pull it off until we see the grading plan. We
don't know that you are really going to be able to ...
B Harrier - I talked to the partner who started the firm back in 76 and he has never
provided a grading plan per se. He said typically not. The client doesn't want to go through
that expense no knowing that he has a viable project. We did look at the grading plan and we
feel that we can make it work. It's not like we haven't done anything.
D Weinstein - According to Resource Associates of Cortland, they say that is required
before approval can be given.
B Harrier - Here it is typically done after approval. .
L Snyder - You anticipate families with children will occupy some of these apartments.
It seems that the pond would be an attractive nuisance. Is there some regulation about fencing
the pond?
ZO Slater - No.
J Skalc_y - Isn't is appropriate that the applicant have the necessary permits prior to
approval? What is the Board's policy?
ZO
Slater - No the
applicant does
not have to obtain all the permits prior to approval.
The Board
is not going to
take any action
tonight, other than possibly get through the SEQR if
the public
hearing can be
concluded.
Supv Schug - We'd like to do part one of the SEQR to make sure that the applicant has
answered the questions properly.
ZO Slater - As the lead agency goes through the SEQR process there certainly are time
frames and the public has opportunity to comment, establishing after they've made a
declaration, whether it be negative or positive.
J Skaley - I just wanted to know the Board's policy.
ZO Slater -
I think
they have a
fairly reasonable policy that is fair to everyone. They try
to do their job with
all
of the assets available
to them. is
Page 20 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
J Skaley - I thought that the
reason
for
holding the hearing was that you needed to
18 make a SEQR determination tonight
or else
we
were not meeting the ...
Atty Perkins - If the Board determines that Part One is complete. It has to make sure
that it is complete and then can make a determination of significance.
J Skaley - But they could make that determination a month from now and not be liable
to be sued?
Atty Perkins - They should be doing it right along. You have to do it once Part One is
complete. Part One is the responsibility of the applicant.
J Skaley - Are the permits necessary for completion of Part One? How do we know is
the project is feasible if these other multiple agencies have to issue permits, and how do you
know that the project has submitted a complete package until you have all that in hand?
Atty Perkins - Any decision the Town Board would make would be conditioned upon all
of the other permits being obtained. All the other involved agencies have had an opportunity to
comment and have submitted comments which are part of the record. We have their input on
the SEQR already.
Tahnee Robertson, 112 Turkey Hill Rd - If this project were to go through at this scale
which obviously has many, many problems associated with it, how would we be assured that
all the promises by the developer be monitored?
Supv Schug - Through our Zoning Officer. It's all put in writing. We have a project on
Snyder Hill Road where the developer didn't do what he was supposed to in the time frame that
we gave him and we stopped his building permits. Whatever is promised to be done and
doesn't get done stays with the project and a future owner would be responsible for it. You
don't get approval and walk away.
L
Robinson
- How do you
determine what is feasible? I'm getting very confused with a
lot of the
data that
is going back
and forth.
Supv Schug - If we get bogus information then he has to solve the problem. If he
doesn't solve the problem, he doesn't build anymore units. All these units won't be built at
once.
L Robinson - I'm concerned about traffic. By one set of standards it is livable, but to
those actually driving it or living here, it's not. At what point to those things get factored into
the whole project, not just looking at DOT data.
Supv Schug - I know where you're coming from with DOT, but like anything else, DOT
says you can have all this happen and unless you have so many accidents and so many cars
you don't get a traffic light or whatever. I've argued with them over these things. Sooner or
later they come around and they will solve the problem. I'm sorry to say that too many people
have to have an accident or be killed before you can get a traffic light or get stuff done by the
state because they do everything by the numbers. It is just the way they operate.
Chris Easton, 10 Freese Road - It appears that when Marchell built the pond was the
beginning of the water problem. That would suggest the base of that pond is feeding the
surface water into the subsurface water table which is why Molly still has water in her
basement. That suggests a need to look at where the bottom of the pond is hitting the rock
is strata. It is carrying water down the hill where you are never gonna affect it. The worst case
there is to drain the pond and seal it. I know that that is extremely expensive.
Page 21 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
B Hamer - Seal the pond? 0
C Easton - Seal the pond so that it remains a contained basin and does not get into
that subsurface area.
Supv Schug - They do a lot of that with liners like they do in landfills. They aren't quite
as expensive as they used to be.
C Easton - The other possibility is to eliminate the pond completely.
J Skaley - There is a part of the SEQR law that has to do with sedimentation. You
really can't look at this as incremental development. You have to look at the project as a whole
and all the implications. Otherwise you could be avoiding proper SEQR.
Supv Schug - We're going to do one step at a time.
L Fisher - Can we get back to the list of concerns?
D Weinstein -What I saw here is that a calculation was made of how many units can
we put on this site. Basically it is 178, so you picked 170 as round number. Instead of
thinking if you really felt it was a good bite, how many units could you comfortably sit there.
With this, you've got one of the buildings only 18' from the back line. This is my estimate just
taking the map provided and trying to use the scale, so maybe that's off. And the exit road
goes how close to that building that's there? In order to fit it in so that the turn didn't go onto
Molly's land. How close is it to that building.
B Harper - Right now with the widest road we can put in it is 5 feet away from that
building. We could narrow that road down. 0
D Weinstein - No, that's not a good idea.
B Hamer - The DOT does not require a 25' road. This can be mitigated with shrubbery,
a fence, trees.
D Weinstein - There have got to be sites that you use uithout having to jam something
in so that it has to go within 5 feet of a building. It seems like it is jammed in and there must
be solutions to make it more comfortably sit on the site.
C1 Grantham - Excuse me, what was the answer to the question about the building at
the corner that is right on the lot line?
B
Harner -
That was
11 feet away. We have since moved it. The setback line on here
has to be
15 feet.
It is a side
lot
line.
Cl Grantham - And the other setbacks?
D Sutton - 25
Elizabeth Case - Can I ask you just exactly how you avoided encroaching this property?
B Hamer - What we had to do was shift the road over to avoid the property. There was
a direct comment from the DOT. Originally we encroached the property line with this radius,
so what we did was provide a new drawing to the town and the DOT and we had to shift this
road over to make sure that we avoided her property. 0
Page 22 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
Molly Case - There are two driveways directly across from where you are going to put
that driveway in. What are you going to do about that?
(Pointed out on the map)
Supv Schug - I have letters that we should put into the record. One is signed by 30 or
so residents of the Deerhaven Drive area. They are worried about the traffic, especially on Nit
Pleasant coming down and the problems they have. We have a letter from Robert Abramson
Masson and Robert T. Masson, also of the same area. As a matter of fact some of their
concerns are written in the other letter. Both those letters indicate that we should do a full EIS
before we grant any approval. We also have a nice letter from Mary Potter who asked a lot of
the same questions, traffic, drainage, etc and expressed her objections. We have a letter from
Ken Finkelstein and Lois Pollack. I haven't read it real carefully, but it looks like the same type
of comments. There is a letter from Mr. Skaley, PhD. stating that project does not meet the
criteria for no significant impact, the project would significantly change the character of the
community, additional school busing would occur during rush hour traffic, and so forth.
Maria Eisner wrote to the Town Board and Planning Board. She mentions that Varna is small,
quiet, rural community and to build a complex like this would change the character. We have
a letter from Geoff and Dawn Potter. Original letters contained in Special Permit file.
Dawn Potter - I would like it noted that one member of the Town Board is missing. He
was also missing this very same situation last Fall, and as our elected official I learned many
things here this evening and I can't believe that he shouldn't be here. He should be privileged
to have a vote on the matter. I will remember that when I elect my next official to sit on the
Town Board. This is very important to Varna and I find it very unusual that he would miss
both meetings.
Supv Schug - I'm not sure why he's not here.
Erica Evans - Quite a long time ago I asked Henry about the grading and all these
things that were going on up on the Marchell property and he said that the landowner has the
right to do these things. Don't you have to have permission to do a pond and did he get
permission and what do you know about it Henry?
ZO Slater - He doesn't need any permission from the Town of Dryden to dig a pond.
There are certain conditions, size wise, gallons and capacity, where he needs approval from
DEC to dig a pond, but generally that point is a one million gallon capacity pond which would
take in excess of 2 acres depending on the depth. He certainly is under an obligation to be
responsible for those actions that he takes civilly, but he doesn't have any obligations to the
Town of Dryden for the work he did there because we do not have prior construction dirt
movement requirements. He certainly does have a civil responsibility to adjoining land owners
to be responsible to them for what he does. It is not the Town's position to lobby that issue. It
is strictly between him and those landowners.
Supv Schug -
He
also would not
let us on
his property, legally. Does anyone else have
any questions. We'd
like
to go through
Part One
of the SEQR.
Cl Grantham - I have some questions. Can you give me definitions of a design hour
volume and peak hour volume? Can you tell me the difference between those?
B Harner - I can certainly open up the book and read it to you, but design hour volume
is what we design to. We look at the cars that are generated from the site and we look at the
® design hour. The peak hour volume is what exists today. The peak hour is not defined in one
hour increments, from 0 to 60 minutes. Between 7 am. and 9 a.m. we took the counts for the
Page 23 of 26
TS 7 -26 -99
left turn, the through and the right. What you do is look at the highest 15 minutes increments
to the sum of an hour. So the peak hour volume would be the highest of the four increments .
within the time frame, which is your rush hour traffic in the morning and then the rush hour
traffic in the afternoon. So the peak hour would be the four highest 15 minute periods.
Cl Grantham - You project for peak hour an increase of 96 cars in the morning and 118
cars in the afternoon. An increase from what, what is it now?
B Hamer - We calculated that peak hour volume based on the standard that has been
used for years. Nothing exists today so what we are saying is based on the study. The
calculations and things that im've done 96 cars will be generated from the site during the peak
morning design hour and 118 for the evening coming back into the site.
Cl Grantham - Okay, I would like you to look up what you calculated as the current
peak volume because I would like to know the percentage increase that you project. I also have
a. question about the treatment that the pond will provide for stormwater. What kind of
treatment will it provide?
B Hamer - Basically we have sediment or different things that run off the site. As the
flow enters the pond it is going to take a longer time for that flow to come out, so it will act as a
settlement basin. That would be the treatment. The DOT came up with close to 800 cars for
peak. Our calculations showed 790 cars during peak hour. So we are basically what we are
saying is that txafiic in both directions, eastbound and westbound, are 790.
Cl Grantham - Jim I have a court decision about SRQR and how we should be using it.
(Copies distributed)
Supv Schug - Does anyone else have any comments? I think it is important that the •
people who know the site and are interested in it stay and listen to see if you agree or disagree
with the comments on the environmental assessment form part one. It addresses how much
dirt is going to be moved, and so on. Are there any more questions? Maybe the engineers can
stay after the meeting to answer any questions.
Supv Schug read the questions and answers on Part One prepared by Mr. Lucente and
his engineers. Comments follow:
Section A
Regarding site description: Dave Weinstein asked if it was originally the developers
intent to give two acres to the town for the trail and Mr. Lucente said that it was not, there will
be an easement.
Regarding #4 - what is the depth to bedrock was answered "see boring log". Supv Schug
said the depth to water was two to ten feet and asked the depth to bedrock. B Harper
answered that they did not hit bedrock.
Regarding 010 - Do hunting, fishing or shell fishing opportunities exist in the project
area? It was answered no, but some members of the audience indicate that people hunt there,
although at least the road frontage is posted.
Regarding #13 - Is the project site presently used by the community or neighborhood as
an open space or recreation area. It was answered no, but the audience felt reference should
be made to proposed Dryden Trail,
Page 24 of 26
TB 7 -26 -99
Regarding #20 - Has the site ever been used for the disposal of solid or hazardous
40 wastes? It was answered no. Audience felt that because of the things that Marchell had
dumped and /or buried there, it should 'be answered yes.
Cl Grantham - According to the DEC it should be yes.
D Putnam - Construction debris does not qualify as solid waste. If it is asphalt, brick,
glass or concrete that does not qualify as solid waste.
Chris Easton - You've also got two old housing trailers up there and around those you
got several drums and several old Comell laboratory instruments. A couple of them look like
they might have been at one time Geiger counters. The drums could be leaking linseed oil for
all we know.
Section B
Regarding #2 - How much natural material will be removed from the site? It was
answered '0". Audience members questioned that and were assured that there would not be
any natural material removed.
Regarding # 14 - Will surface area of an existing water body increase or decrease by
proposal? It was answered Yes, existing pond area will change to mitigate storm water.
Audience questioned this and B Harper explained that the depth will change, and so they
checked `yes ". It was decided that it should be no as surface area will not change.
Regarding #20 - Will project produce operating noise exceeding the local ambient noise
levels? It was answered no, but the audience felt that it should be yes.
Section C
Regarding #6 - Is the proposed action consistent with the recommended uses in
adopted local land use plans? It was answered yes and the audience felt it should be no. Atty
Perkins explained it is a use allowed by special permit and Dave Weinstein stated that the
Dryden General Plan has a recommendation for Varna. Cl Grantham said that under SEQR
you consider either or both. Atty Perkins felt that they were talking about whether you needed
a zoning change; it is a use allowed by special permit and as such it is presumed to be
consistent with recommended uses by definition. D Weinstein feels it is not consistent with the
recommendations of the Dryden General Plan.
D
Potter asked
if the
pumping station at Forest Home is capable of handling the
increased
flow and was
told
it was adequate.
Regarding
#8
- is the proposed
action compatible
with
adjoining / surrounding land uses
within a' /o mile?
It was
answered yes
and the audience
felt is
should be no.
Regarding #12 - Will the proposed action result in the generation of traffic significantly
above present levels? Answer: yes. 12(a) If yes, is the existing road network adequate to
handle the additional traffic? It was answered yes, and the audience felt it should be no.
Molly Case - What are you going to do about the valuation of my property with a road
coming down next: to my house. I can't set on my front porch, and if they bring a road down
® through there I won't be able to set on my side porch. I won't have any privacy. I've put a lot
of money into that house and hate to think that I won't get out of it what I have into it.
Page 25 of 26
TB 7 -2649
Supv Schug - We haven't see how the engineers plan to treat the separation of your
property from the road. That remains to be seen.
Mary Potter - Is concerned about whether roads are adequate to handle fire trucks.
Chris Easton - They are adequate.
Mary Potter - What about school buses. The bus presently does not go into housing
developments. The children will have to walk down.
Supv Schug - They will have facilities on the hill and Mr. Lucente intends to build a. bus
shelter.
Janet Morgan was concerned about the Part One review and which answers would be
used. Cl Tom Hatfield has marked the ones that there was disagreement on. They may not
change, but there was a question raised by the audience and we need to take a look at those.
Jim Skaley - Is concerned about how the project will integrate the community.
Barbara Caldwell - Asked Mr. Lucente to get something in writing about the impact of
the development on the school system, bus stops, safety, etc.
On motion of Cl T Hatfield, seconded by Cl C Hatfield, and unanimously approved, the
public hearing was closed at 10:10 p.m.
Cl Grantham distributed information regarding a Cayuga Lake Network meeting
Respectfully submitted,
Bambi L. Hollenbeck
Town Clerk
Page 26 of 26