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;;MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS, ITHACA,
SINEW YORK JULY 115, 1977
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;'APPEAL N0. 1162 Mark A. Clemente & Wayne D. 1
i; Stokes Tavern/Restaurant
ii 305 Stewart Avenue
;!APPEAL NO. 1162 Executive Session 22
;;APPEAL NO. 1163 Bill Avramis 24
117-119 Eddy Street
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,!APPEAL NO. 1163 Executive Session 44
!APPEAL NO. 1164 Curtis L. Pfaff 45
527 N. Aurora Street
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APPEAL NO. 1164 Executive Session 55
'APPEAL NO, 1165 John C. $ Mary E. Gutenberger 56
212-2122 Delaware Avenue
APPEAL NO. 1165 Executive Session 78
Certification of Recording Secretary 79
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BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS, CITY OF ITHACA
CITY HALL, ITHACA, NEW YORK 14850
I• JULY 11 , 1977
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A regular meeting of the Board of Zoning Appeals, City of
11thaca, was held in Common Council Chambers , City Hall , Ithaca, New;
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York on July 11 , 1977 .
!PRESENT: Peter Martin, Chairman
Judith Maxwell
C. Murray VanMarter
i Gregory Kasprzak
Martin Greenberg
Edgar Gasteiger
Thomas Hoard, Building Commissioner & Secty
Barbara Ruane, Recording Secretary
Chairman Martin opened the meeting listing members of the Board
present. The Board operates under the provisions of the Ithaca
Zoning Ordinance and the Ithaca City Charter. Our proceedings are
iinot governed by strict rules of evidence, our operating procedure
'itakes the cases u in numerical order. We ask the people who are
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11presenting an appeal first to state any evidence or testimony they
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'have that relates to it and then those opposed. After hearing all
of the cases through, the Board then goes into executive session toy
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(!deliberate and then reconvenes in public session to announce the
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! result. I might point out that this is the first hearing in which
(the Board has a number of cases arising under the amended residen- j
lItial zoning provisions of the Ithaca Ordinance and if it takes
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more time for us to come to grips with an issue it may be
ibecause we are only, for the first time reading the provisions of
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the revised zoning ordinance because they have not been distributed;
Ito us until very recently. We ask that all of those who have testiL
+mony to present come to the front of the room, identify themselves
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� by name and address , and limit their remarks to the issues that
confront the Board. Mr. Secretary what is our first case?
Secretary Hoard announced the first case to be heard:
1APPEAL NO. 1162 : Appeal of Mark A. Clemente and Wayne D. Stoke
for an area variance to convert premises at
305 Stewart Avenue from a garage to a tavern j
in a B-2 use district. The rear yard and one
side yard are of insufficient size under the
1. zoning regulations , and no on-site parking is
available.
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11Mr. Williamson is , I believe, handling this case .
!ROBERT WILLIAMSON: Mr. Chairman and members of the Board, my name
is Robert Williamson, I 'm with Mazza, Williamson & Clune , represent*
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ding RHP, Inc. The gentlemen, Mark Clemente and William Stokes , are;
represented by Mr. Clynes , who is not here this evening. One ques
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tion I wanted to clarify before I proceed - my understanding was th�
11side yard was adequate and that the only problem here was the rear
ard. Mr. Hoard , . .
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R. HOARD: I believe there is no side yard on the north side I
can the distance from the building to the lot line on that side.
o you have a better plot plan?
R. WILLIAMSON: This doesn' t have the measurements but I think that
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I r. Clemente does - if Mr. Burns would bring that forward. j
ROBERT BURNS : This was taken from the deed. The black shows the
side yard.
R. HOARD: They have it.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, so that in this case the area variance
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ou are requesting, and it is only an area variance, not use var- 1
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dance, is because of the insufficient rear yard of the property. 1
R. WILLIAMSON: Yes.
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�CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Now there is mention made in the notice of the
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eeting of no on-site parking. Am I right in understanding that
ou are not seeking an area variance for parking but have made ar
angements off the site to comply with the provisions of the ordi- E
ance?
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MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes . Mr. Chairman we have with us this evening a
letter from Cornell University addressed to both Mr. Stokes and Mr. '
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Temente which I will hand to you, dated June 9th, from Mr. John
entkowski indicating that pursuant to a conversation he had on
Tune 1st, 1977 , Cornell University, through his Real Estate Depart
ent, would rent space for approximately thirty (30) cars in the
j arking lot owned by the University located at the intersection of j
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illiams Street and Stewart Avenue. The requirement of the ordi
�hance indicated one space for five seatings inside the restaurant i
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kwhich would be using a capacity of about 150, a requirement of
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!thirty (30) spaces for cars and we have that commitment from Cornel .
IICHAIRMAN MARTIN: And the Building Commissioner is satisfied that i
;that meets the 500 1,000 foot rule that allows the counting of
hose spaces - this is against the parking requirement?
R. HOARD: Yes .
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HAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, so that the only requested relief from
he Board is for an area variance because of the lack of a back yar4
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f this property.
R. WILLIAMSON: Yes , the amended ordinance or the ordinance as
dopted by the City would require 15% in this B-2 zone, of the
Iepth. Now, the depth is about 60 ' which would mean a rear yard
requirement of 91 . We have about 5 ' and need - and that' s why we I
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are here for the variance.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, well then would you proceed. . . .
�R. WILLIAMSON: Yes . Just for a brief background, Mr. Mark Clemente
{�nd Wayne Stokes are both graduates of Cornell University and Mr.
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Clemente has also received a Masters Degree from the School of Hotel
dministration. What they wish to do is to have a restaurant/tavert
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ere at the site of the old carriage house for the Gauntlett Estate
That house - the Gauntlett ' s house, was at the intersection of
Stewart Avenue and Buffalo Street and this is an old carriage housei
ocated slightly to the north and across the street from Mr. Leo
uentert ' s property. I think Leo ' s here this evening, and at an
ngle - a diagonal from the Chapter House, formerly known as Jim' s
Place. This building is owned by RHP, Inc. and it would be pro-
posed that they would lease this property to these gentlemen who
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ould have a tavern/restaurant on this premises. They would speciat
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Mize in having lunches and dinners soup and sandwiches and to
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1p rovide for the parking they have, as I have indicated, received a
Commitment from Cornell University to rent upwards to thirty (30)
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{{--paces at the intersection of Williams Street and Stewart Avenue.
��ces sir.
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I�R. KASPRZAK: How long is that commitment for?
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IIMR. WILLIAMSON: It would be - the letter itself does not state a
i:term but I would defer that in the questioning if you would, to bot
Mr. Stokes and/or Mr. Clemente if you want to answer that right now;
jmr. Clemente did you have a - is it an on-going commitment from
the University to have it as long as you were going to occupy thesell
( premises on the release?
( MR. CLEMENTE : We really didn't discuss the length of the possible i
commitment by Cornell. It seems that they have no immediate plans
jdown the road maybe four or five years for that piece of property
so I imagine there would be no problem.
MR. KASPRZAK: Thank you.
MR. WILLIAMSON: Now we would propose that the level - the operatioln
�is a two floor operation, the basement level which you enter into 11
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from Stewart Avenue as a - construction-wise - a two foot thick
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stone wall and on the second floor it is a wood and frame construc-1
tion withro osed insulation and I believe some kind of sheet rock]
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ion top of that which would take care of noise factors as far as j
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(!surrounding neighbors are concerned. The windows in the premises -!
there are three windows on the second floor - not the second floor,
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I ' ll call it the basement floor, ground floor - which fronts on
Stewart Avenue. There are no other windows on the ground floor
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except on the south side and then there is a couple on the north
jside of the building. There would be on the first floor, seating
larrangements and a bar and on the second floor the so-called ground
floor, there would be a dance floor area and seating. They have
discussed, when I say "they" I mean Mr. Clemente and Mr. Stokes ,
have discussed with Chief Weaver, here in the City, the necessary
fire and safety codes that they would be required to operate under
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!in operating this tavern/restaurant. There would be , and this
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(the Chief has agreed to, four (4) exits ground floor exits for 1
fire in this building. There would be one on the north side leadinlg
doff of the ground floor; one on the south side, leading from the
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! ground floor; a second one leading from the basement floor on the
,south side and then one on the Stewart Avenue - where it fronts on
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iStewart Avenue - so there are four entrances and exits as far as
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;'fire is concerned. The Fire Chief has worked with these two gentle
!'ment closely in making sure they would comply with all the fire
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iicodes and, of course, they want to do what this Fire Chief says and;
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Iwhat the Codes require. One of the contingencies that you would have
to put in any variance which you would allow would be that they
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( would obtain a variance or approval to have the tavern/restaurant
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# in this building from the New York State Board of Review in New York
City which is the direction and the place we have to go to and they've
( discussed that with Mr. Hoard, the Building Commissioner, so that
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they realize they have to go there and obtain approval to have the
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Itavern/restaurant in this building, And Mr. Hoard, I think, had
better explain or will relate to you that he has, if the New York
(City Board of Review approves this , this will be satisfactory to
the City of Ithaca. Now, as I indicated to you, we are in a B- 2 I
zone and the use of this premises as a tavern/restaurant is autho-
rized by your present ordinance except for the fact that we do not
have 9' in the rear. I would like to add here that in the rear at
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the present time is all a grass area and is the rear of a home or
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building occupied by students on Buffalo Street owned, as I under-
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stand it by Mr. Goldbert. There are fire access lanes both on the
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South side of the building and on the north side of the building which
again complies with both the requests and the requirement of the
Fire Chief. It is proposed that the restaurant will be open from j
111 : 00 to 1 : 00 A.M. and they would cater to faculty and students .
MR. KASPRZAK: What about me?
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MR. WILLIA14SON: And you also.
MR. KASPRZAK: Thank you. Since I 'm neither a student nor a facult�.
MR. WILLIAMSON: They would hope that the - again getting back to a
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noise factor that there are - there would be no open windows or ope�
Idoors and that the insulation on the ground floor made up of the
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'insulation and the sheet rock coupled with the 2 ' thick walls in the
basement would contain any noise. It is not their intent to have aAy
frock and roll bands or any other bands , it is their intent to have
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programmed music. Now at the present time this building exists as
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Ila garage a non-conforming use, it ' s a carriage house. As I indi-I
11cated earlier it was the carriage house for the Gauntlett estate I
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('located further to the south on Stewart Avenue. It is owned by
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1RHP, Inc. and, with me tonight, is Mr. Burns who would give us some
of the background of the ownership and the economic factors in-
volved with RHP, Inc. in the ownership of this building. And at
(ithis time I would like to call on Mr, Burns to come forward to give!
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� us some of those factors.
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Mr. Williamson, at somepoint I would like to have
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a little more details on the fire access lane that you say gives
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adequate coverage of the yard . . .
MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes. I 'm going to have Mr. Burns give to you a
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map and sketch which he has prepared and at the same time while he
is up here at the microphone I will pass out some photographs of
the building and let him describe briefly after you have looked at
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jthe photographs where those ground exits for fire are and also wherie
( the fire lanes are.
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Thank you.
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IMR. BURNS: Do you want me to answer your question first as
! CHAIRMAN MARTIN: You take it . . . I just wanted to register my
question . . . you take it in whatever order you intend to present yolur
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material.
IMR. BURNS: Okay . . . fine. Members of the Appeals Board, my name
is Robert Burns , I'm Vice President of Real Estate for RHP, Inc, anjd
I am requesting this variance in behalf of RHP, Inc. j
;CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Excuse me Mr. Burns . Can I understand the status
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hof this set of pictures . Will that be an exhibit that we can keep
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as part of our records? j
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IMR. BURNS: Yes .
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(CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, so that book of pictures will be Exhibit;
I�No, 1 on this case, Excuse me,
IMR, BURNS This request is based on the fact that we cannot use j
,this property for any other use than as a carriage house or garage
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Ito comply with the present zoning laws . Consequently, because of
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phis restriction of use an economic loss is experienced every year!
14s we cannot rent the property for any other use than car storage.
�Oor example : in 1976 there was a loss of $424. 55 ; in 1975 a loss
� f $606. ; in 1974 a loss of $133. If we are granted a variance fort
Ian additional approximately 5 ' of land that would meet the require- !
ments of the zoning law, it would then be economically feasible to j
restore the exterior of the structure to its original condition and
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o develop the inside into an aestically pleasing gathering place f¢r
ornell students , and faculty and other people in the community.
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ncidentally, this is _ I added that.
R. KASPRZAK: I though so.
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R. BURNS : What we - as the pictures are passed around you' ll see
that this is a historic building - a historic carriage house - and
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Ke plan to restore rather than to remodel and we have bids out now
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For scraping the " entire outside down to the bare wood and painting j
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it at that point ; redoing the roof sections and all roof boards , et .
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and we are going to have a restored exterior.
R. KASPRZAK: You mean when you say we, you mean RHP?
R. BURNS: Yes At the present time the property is paying $287 . 9
'n real estate taxes which covers city taxes , county taxes and scho l
axes . By granting us a variance for this additional 5 ' requirement,
�' t would allow us to proceed with improvements to the property which
' ould increase the value of the property, thus increasing the tax
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evenues to the city, to the county and to the school district.
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uring the past spring we have renovated four of our properties in
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thaca, on East Hill , located at 108 Schuyler Place, 112-114
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chuyler Place, 313 E. Court Street and 604 E. Buffalo Street, whic
s directly adjacent to this building in question. This is on the '
�orner of Buffalo and Stewart. I feel that by renovating these
uildings it will tend to improve the desirability of this neighbor4,
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ood and improve the real estate values of not only our property bu�
�he properties in the surrounding blocks . We - to get to your ques-
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tion, Mr. Chairman, we do own property on the - we own the propertyl
n the north side of the building in question and we own the building
��n the south side. We . . . j
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;CHAIRMAN MARTIN: So that building on the corner of Williams and
lStewart, around which this fire access lane goes is yourproperty asj
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iwell?
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IM R. BURNS: Yes , that' s correct. Here is a drawing this shows
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that there is access - we own this building and this building here
� so there would be access there and access up that side.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Now, what is the state of the terrain in that lan ,
las drawn there? I mean, is that a driveway?
IMR. BURNS: Yes , it ' s a driveway.
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(CHAIRMAN MARTIN: And are autos parked there?
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�R. BURNS: No , we don't allow parking in the driveway. Sometimes
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they pull in to unlaod groceries or thigs like that but most of the!
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time they find other off-street parking. Mostly across the street 1
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at a Cornell lot.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay.
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R. GASTEIGER: That is , the apartment dwellers rent space on a
Cornell lot?
I�MR. BURNS: Yes , I think some of the students do. I 'm not sure the -
E�of course they change every September, I 'm not sure what kind of
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deals they do make. But I know in the past they have rented space
there from Cornell . I request that this variance be granted elimin'
ating the use restriction on the property and allowing us to improv
this property and make it a viable real estate investment. If ther
`dare any questions, I would be glad to answer. . . i
(CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright. You can' t cast any further light on the
permanency of the Cornell commitment to provide parking for this
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tavern in their lot that . . . at Williams and Stewart?
R. BURNS : Well, I think the only reason that they wouldn' t have t�e
!( arking, I would imagine, that if Cornell decided to develop the
roperty. That' s the only thing I can think of . . . which we would 1-
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�o control over.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Right. And at that point then this tavern would
Cease to be in compliance with the zoning ordinance since it would
ill ack the requisite off-street parking.
iR. BURNS: That 's correct .
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MR. GASTEIGER: Someone at the Planning Board meeting stated that
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;Cornell had already committed that space. I assume by this letter I
11that statement was incorrect? If there is anyone who knows what j
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Wornell ' s commitment is . . .
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IMR. CLEMENTE : Excuse me. I don't quite understand that question -
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iwhat was Cornell ' s commitment changed to?
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: We have a report of the Planning Board Hearing o
this case, combined with the Planning Board' s recommendation to us .
In the course of that hearing as reported to us , someone said that
the parking spaces in that lot had already been committed to variou�
` people renting space there and that there were not enough spaces tol
commit to you to come up with a total required by the ordinance.
MR. CLEMENTE : Well, I don' t know how they could really say that
, because Cornell rents those spots yearly - in other words , there isi
1, no long term contracts as we understand it, for lots in those space ,
I mean for spaces in that lot.
WAYNE STOKES: Because of the students changing every year, all we
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know is from the meeting we had with Mr. Bentkowski there are
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spaces available and knowing from living and going to Cornell that
that lot is never full. j
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R. GASTEIGER: So it is your impression that there are thirty (30) 1,
ncommitted spaces there? during the school year?
R. CLEMENTE : Well there will be for next year . . .
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(CHAIRMAN MARTIN: I think - so that we get this all clear in the
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record, we should get the two of you identified by name and address
R. CLEMENTE : I 'm sorry. My name is Mark Clemente, I live at 111
udd Falls Road in Ithaca.
AYNE STOKES: My name is Wayne Stokes , I live at 163C Lansing Nort�
apartments .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: And if there are further questions, perhaps you
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Could come up so that the whole audience could hear the response.
IR. WILLIAMSON: Mr. Gasteiger, if I may interrupt just a moment, a$
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II understand it, the present parking arrangement, Mr. Clemente can
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1werify this , with Cornell , is simply that the students pay $50. 00 E
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1per year to rent this space on a school year basis . Is that correct?
jThat would be a little less than $10. 00 a month, and Mr. Burns, in i
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ffhis present rental of the space in the carriage house gets $10. 00
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; per car per month, is that correct?
,MR. GASTEIGER: And how many cars are in the carriage house?
IMR. WILLIAMSON: How many are in, Bob?
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MR. BURNS: There is four that we are renting for $7 . 50 and then
Mone for $10. 00 in a private garage , 3
R. WILLIAMSON: The private garage is the one in the picture that
you saw so the south of the building is that correct, Bob?
R. BURNS: That' s correct.
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R. WILLIAMSON: And then inside the building there are four for
j$7 . 50 apiece?
IMR. BURNS: That ' s right .
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R. WILLIAMSON: And that 's our current as I say, that 's the
current use allowed for this building. Someone had a question?
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R. GASTEIGER: Yes , back to my question. During the school year
is it your impression that there are thirty (30) empty spaces in th
Cornell parking lot?
R. CLEMENTE : Yes , it is and if we contracted with Cornell , we wou d
o it so that it will be done at the beginning of the school year
o those students could find spots elsewhere - either on Kite Hill
Pr one of the other parking facilities that Cornell has . j
kR. WILLIAMSON: Mr, Gasteiger I would have to say I feel Mr. Bent-
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j owski , in writing the letter, wrote the letter in good faith when
�he indicated that there would be up to thirty (30) spaces . I belie*e
he letter is - the Chairman has it, j
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R, GASTEIGER: I don't think my question questions his good faith.
HAIRMAN MARTIN: It doesn't say up to or at least, it says approxi}
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nately thirty (30) cars but I will assume good faith. Are there
further questions from members of the Board? Yes.
M R. GREENBERG : It is my understanding is that you need a 5 ' or yo�
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re deficient 5 ' and the use variance isn! t necessary, although Mr.
urns seemed to indicate that he was referring to I would ask for
variance, now . .
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1j4R. WILLIAMSON: Approximately, doctor. It' s an area variance.
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)DR. GREENBERG : An area variance.
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R. WILLIAMSON: Yes. You probably, Doctor, are familiar with the
jterrain as are the rest of the members of the Board but its the ares.
immediately to the back of this facility - this building and it
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roughly is about a 4 ' average in the rear yard right now but the next
,Property owner to the east who I understand is Mr. Goldberg - it ' s'
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all a back yard of a property he owns which faces , and is occupied �y
tudents - but faces on Buffalo Street but located on the north side
�f Buffalo Street.
R. GREENBERG : Personally I didn' t have a chance to . . .
HAIRMAN MARTIN: It ' s only an area variance but the reason why an
area variance is required now but would not be for the garage is that
Ibf a change in use. So that it is the change in use that requires
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(the area variance.
�R. GREENBERG : I understand. Now the question. Now that we have
J� hat straight. Has any attempt been to make the purchase of that
mall amount of land?
R. WILLIAMSON: My understanding is that there has been no attempts
` o purchase it, no.
R. GREENBERG : But if that were the case then you wouldn' t need to
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ire here?
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VR. WILLI'AMSON: No, if they could assumably purchase it htere woula
ibe no need for any area variance whatsoever because we do comply
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j� ith the B- 2 zoning under your new ordinance.
DR. GREENBERG: The other question - you know, the question of hard4
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1� hip arises how long did RHP own the property?
IR. WILLIAMSON: Mr. Burns would have to answer that for me.
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�R. BURNS: They say its probably been 12 - 15 years _. I 'd say that
1� 'm not really sure but I would say that its in that neighborhood.
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�R, GREENBERG : Then you've been losing money all the time?
11R. BURNS: Every year.
R. Greenberg : It doesn't sound like a good purchase to me. Thanks
ou.
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,IR. WILLIAMSON: Any other members of theBoard have questions?
11CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there further questions?
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��R. WILLIAMSON: Either to myself or either Mr. Clemente or Mr.
Stokes or Mr. Burns?
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: How many people do you anticipate will be in the
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!tavern on a good Friday or Saturday night?
f R. CLEMENTE : It will depend on the season of the year - it depend$
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on the weather -
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: T know, but the best of your hopes realized. . .
R. CLEMENTE : I really can' t say. We should have about 150 seats
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in there.
'CHAIRMAN MARTIN: 150 seats .
R. CLEMENTE : Approximately. We should have about seating for 50
downstairs and maybe about 80 or 90 upstairs.
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R. WILLIAMSON: Mr. Chairman, was your question regarding the
egress for the fire adequately answered?
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: No. Oh, yes , I think I have a clear picture of toe
l�fire but now I want to know again - based on your hunch and perhap�
the experience of the Chapter House - how much of that clientele wi�l
be driving and how much will be walking or coming by some other meas?
R. STOKES : I think it should be pretty well split because - say
within about 5001 , maybe even 1 , 000 ' radius of our hopefully tavern
jrestaurant that pretty well saturated with students that are in
! Cornell and should be able to walk within that distance . Plus the
. fact that it really is a - I don't know what the percentage would b�,
but a lot of students just don' t have transportation and they have
to walk where the entertainment is and so we would be pulling in,
opefully, thatcrowd.
HAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, now the fraction of them that drive, how!
ill they know that you've arranged with Cornell for parking spots
there? Will there be some marking, signing of those parking . . .
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R. STOKES : It will be designated, yes .
! R. CLEMENTE: We ' ll have a designation inside the establishment alio.
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i here will be one in the parking lot, to state that it will be for
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pur patrons.
!CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay. Are there further questions from members
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1 the Board?
IIR. GASTEIGER: Yes , I wasn't it wasn' t clear to me about the doots .
here were four doors - were two to serve the upstairs or just one
1� o serve the upstairs?
IJIR. WILLIAMSON: I ' ll let Mr. Clemente answer that.
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R. CLEMENTE: Due to the unique layout of the building it ' s almost !
j ike three levels . There will be four doors at three different levels ,
11 with ground access. Two for the bottom floor and two for the tip
loor.
E�
R. GASTEIGER: And may I ask Mr. Burns a question? Are you not co -
i
erned with the noise and the renting of your apartments right next !
1
i oor?
} R. BURNS : No. As Mr. Williamson mentioned, the lower level - wha{
f
f i
e call the basement level there is a 2 ' stone wall and the upstair$
e are going to be putting insulation in and putting up one hour
rated sheet rock on the walls . In addition to that we are installi#g
i central air conditioning system with a heat pump that will not
ecessitate opening windows or doors for ventilation in the buildin�
i E
o the building will be tight , there is very minimal amount of glas$
�n the building. There is some, I think Mr, Williamson mentioned,
i
think there is three small - well as you saw the pictures going around,
think you could see the front , there is some small windows and Ilr
hot concerned with that any noise - I think we ' ll solve that
�roblem.
f
R. KASPRZAK: The insulation that you are implying is in the tavern?
r the tavern/restaurant building, the new building?
f
R. BURNS : Oh yes , that would be in the new building, yes ,
R. KASPRZAK: That' s not enough if you want to keep the noise out. j
e
It wont even stop 30% of it.
SIR. BURNS: What, just insulation and new walls . We 're doing every;
thing we can to insulate it, our architect in Mr. DiPasquale 's offi4e -
we ' re going to be dealing with him and trying to come up with some-
I
thing that will hold down the noise we are concerned - I am not
ii �
- 14 -
concerned about our end products . I would say right now if we rent�d
i
fit to somebody that has juke boxes or rock and roll band - as it
histands right now we would be very concerned because we wouldn't be
ii
(able to rent our apartments next door. But our end product is going
i
to be a quality product and I think we are going to be cutting downl
I�the noise factor.
11MR. KASPRZAK: You might do better by insulating the apartments rater
than the tavern.
R. WILLIAMSON: We have two other exhibits, Mr. Chairman, we have i
one showing the location of the parking in relation to the building
and also our side yards . And then I believe there is a plot plan
ade by the architect, Mr. DiPasquale.
I
3
CHAIRMAN Martin: Alright. Call that one number 2 - the parking ma
umber 2 and call the plot plan number 3.
R. WILLIAMSON: The preliminary design would be number 3, Mr,
i
hairman.
I
HAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there further questions from members of the
lBoard? Does that complete your presentation?
SIR. CLEMENTE : I would just like to make one more statement.
HAIRMAN MARTIN: Yes.
i
�MR, CLEMENTE: Some of the concern that seemed to be generated in t�e
earing before the Planning Board was that there'd be another Chapter
ouse in the neighborhood, I'd like to assure you that that' s the
i
ast thing in the world we would like to do, is to run another
hapter House.
�HAIRMAN MARTIN: Could you elaborate on that? That is to say, I 'm !
of asking you to knock the competition but asking you to indicate
i
ow, in terms of neighborhood impact, which seems to be people ' s
I
oncern, yours will be different from the Chapter House.
R. CLEMENTE : Well , I think just even in the - take the noise factor.
e'd like to run a "smoother establishment" than the Chapter House
! uns . We'd like to go for a mixture of the faculty, and the staff
i
nd the students at Cornell , whereas the Chapter House goes after
i
asically fraternity house crowd. That 's what we would like to dc-
i
!� I
I
(�R. STOKES: I think some of the problems , as you say that overflow '[
;but on the street, can be alleviated by maybe hiring one extra per
�� on - having a door man there to you know, people who want to sta�
(fin, fine; if they don't then move themselves away from the building!
;�HAIRMAN MARTIN: Further questions from members of the Board?
IOR. KASPRZAK: I want to make a comment. I wasn' t going to but
hat happens five years from now - you decide to leave the premises '[
o somebody else and that somebody else doesn' t have the same ideal
s you seem to be propogating here?
R. CLEMENTE : Well, I don' t know why they would buy the property
hen, or buy the business out. It would still you know, any pur-
hase would be subject to the approval of the landlord.
R. KASPRZAK: I understand that part.
i
HAIRMAN MARTIN: But the point Mr. Kasprzak is making is that a
ariance granted now is a variance for a tavern in that place and,
I
ou know, the things that you tell about your intention for that
�usiness cannot, in any enforceable way be put in as some kind of
condition on the variance .
r
R. CLEMENTE : True, but the property is zoned for a tavern.
i
HAIRMAN MARTIN: That 's true. But you are mentioning particular
spects of your tavern as suggesting that somehow that bears on the ;
ssue before the Board and insofar as that ' s the case, those may be
Your intentions but they may not be those of some subsequent operat6r
i
f the business .
R. CLEMENTE: That's true.
HAIRMAN MARTIN: Is that it? Alright, thank you Mr. Williamson.
re there others here this evening, first who would like to speak in
` upport of the requested area variance in case 1162? (None) ARe '
i
here any here this evening who would like to speak in opposition to,
he requested area variance? Please come forward, 4
RNEST N. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, members of the Board, my name is
i
rnest N. Warren, I live at 514 Edgewood Place, Ithaca, N.Y, , althoiAgh
y street address is Edgewood Place, Edgewood is just a little private
' I
rive off from Osmun. Understand, I am one of the ones who live
I!
i
I
�i
- 16
i
i! within 200 ' of this operation or at least my property does . Mrs.
Warren and I are here speaking as individuals , owners of property in
,; the immediate neighborhood. Our great concern is the subject of
�iparking which you have discussed at some length. Parking at the
II
I
present time when the students return is quite impossible , This i�
Iia carriage house and most of the buildings which were constructed
There were constructed in the carriage house area. Most of the
I
buildings could not afford a carriage house so there were no garagos
� or parking spaces for the bulk of the houses which are situated in
i
the area. The result is that when the students return the student
use the streets primarily as parking lots , or a place to park thei�
I
cars . And when it comes a good Friday or Saturday night with the
i
i
i operation of the present Chapter House, parking becomes almost
f
beyond question. Osmun Place, which is a little U shaped drive j
running off from Stewart , curling around to Buffalo, has parking
i
one one side. If you want to come around about 11 : 00 o'clock at
night on a Friday night you will probably find them parked on both!
I
sides of the street creating a real fire hazard. Of course, what
i
distresses me is I 've gone out to get out of my garage - I 'm one
i
of the few property owners that has a garage, it ' s on Osumn Street
and I find that entirely blocked by people who are running into th�
Chapter House for a few short ones before the evening is over. Th�
I
i; building which is described here sounds a great improvement over
(
+j what has been allowed to degenerate there for the last ten or twelve
years. However, it will certainly increase the traffic hazard.
( I 'm mindful of the fact that Stewart Avenue at the present time inj
I
this area has no parking on that side of the street or the north i
side of the street where this proposed - where the carriage house now
situates . It would create a hazard, people will obviously stop on�
i Stewart Avenue where noarkin is
P g permitted, to allow the guests
at least to lady guests, I hope they would not make them walk
the entire parking lot on a rainy night - but it ' s bound to create,,
it seems to me, a hazardous condition. I 'm mindful of the fact thpt
� i
iI currently the University has seen fit to commit, at least for a
I,
I� I
I!
I:
- 17 -
's
h
i1
li
year, thirty (30) parking spaces. I 'm also mindful of the fact
;; that if thirty (30) parking spaces are committed to this operation '
j
there are thirty (30) less available for the other people who are
i
jalready there and I can assure you that previous years experience, !
ljand I 've lived at the present location now for over twenty seven !
�I
! years, that there is inadequate parking and there has even been
I;
( inadequate parking after the old American Legion House was torn
i
down and the University has now, temporarily, voted this to parkin .
� I 'm sure the Board remembers that it wasn't too long ago that the !
i
University, with one of our prominent citizens was contemplating t�e
! construction of a luxury apartment on the property which would havt
eliminated, of course, any possibility of parking. I am again con}
{ cerned of the fact that, although you may have a commitment for a
year, I see no assurance that the commitment will continue and the
afterwards we have a situation which is even more intolerable then
the present situation. So it is the parking situation which is a
i!
grave concern. I understand that they are talking about a varianc�
here in the rear. I don't profess to know too much about that but !
I do suggest that you examine very carefully the obvious increase
in the amount of parking which will be required in the area becaus�
I
` everyone that' s committed to this new establishment will have the
I �
effect of displacing people who are looking for that same area for
la parking lot and it will just simply throw more people on the
jstreet in addition to requiring, and I' believe, I heard correct, y
i i
! five people who are currently receiving parking there at the prese*t
time. 'Thank you gentlemen. !
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there questions for Mr. Warren?
I
� MR. GASTEIGER: Yes , I 'm interested to know how people in the j
neighborhood view the carriage house. The complaint was made that !
jthere is a hardship here and that the property is being leto as
g !
I such..
s
iMR, WARREN: I 'm not qualified on the hardship, I know the properti
4has been allowed to deteriorate badly, no question about that, It !
!
!! seems to be a favorite place to throw stones through the windows 11
!I �
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P
!i
- 18 -
h and no windows have been replaced or the last - at least - ten
i;
!!
!; years . It is disreputable in its present shape, this I will conce e.
! MR. GASTEIGER: But without this variance do you see any hope of ii
1= getting better?
11MR. WARREN: Open spaces are sometimes highly desirable .
! CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there further questions? Thank you. Are
there any others present who would like to speak in opposition to
{!
Ithe requested area variance?
I
BERNICE TUTTON: Mr. Chairman, and members of the Board, I am
Bernice Tutton from 110 Osumn Place and we have lived in this plate
for - since 1935 and within about 200 ' of 305 Stewart Avenue. We i
i
!l feel that two taverns are too much in a matter of some 100 ' in a
location on Stewart Avenue in this location especially. In the pa t
i
42 years on Osmun Place there has been a real traffic and noise
problem. The police can verify this they have been called many,
!
many times. It appears there is little regard for private propert
or city law regarding property or noise with just one tavern on
i
Stewart Avenue. Osmun Place has parking only on one side - yet i
time after time cars are parked on both sides of Osmun Place and
even in our drive. Once we found four cars parked in our front
yard. 305 Stewart Avenue is 42 ' x 66 ' they tell me. Is there goi*g
to be any parking at all on this lot or where is the loading and i
unloading going to be? Is it going to be on Stewart Avenue or has !
it been called to your attention by Mr. - there is no
! parking on Stewart Avenue on that side - Stewart Avenue has parkin
!Ion one side only which is the other side. What will happen when w�
i
have stormy days - are the people going to go up Williams Street to
park or are they going to park illegally as has been done in the
!
past on Osmun Place and on the other streets around us? We feel
that our property is entitled to the protection that we pay for.
fire engine cannot get through Osmun Place with parking on both
I
isides . This I believe, is one of the reasons the City of Ithaca
;, made it parking on one side only but when it is illegally parked o4
the other side, and even though an officer comes up and puts a
'f
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- 19 -
i
i` ticket on the car, I don' t see how that helps the fire engine to i
' get through. Perhaps it does . What assurance - this is brought u
i�
several times - what assurance do we have that these parking place
i�
j; will continue to be available or rented, even if they are availably?
s
JINow someone called me today and told me that they rent spaces and
�Ithey had someone that came to their place and rented the required
i
t
spaces in order to get their variance or whatever they needed to
ii
.! convert or what have you. Then - they rented them for one year bu�
` they never rented them again. They got their variance, they got
their building and they never rented again. Now this lady told me -
iIshe lives on Stewart Avenue - that this has happened twice. What f
o i
Ido you do if they discontinue to have these parking places, you
can' t close a place down can you, after it has already been given
the variance and they've rented it once and have the parking places?
! CHAIRMAN MARTIN: I would suppose they could be closed down if the
no longer complied with the parking requirement.
! MRS. TUTTON: Yes, but would they? Did I understand that they ex-
pect half of the 150 people that they estimate that they would lik4
to have as drive in? I could not understand the talk was so - thi
is what I though I heard. Yet, half of 150 is a lot more than 30 !
to me.
iCHAIRMAN MARTIN: I assume they wouldn't all bring automobiles that
amore than one would come per car. i
iMRS. TUTTON: This seems to be our trouble - they continually tell ,
i
! us that if we would have more people in cars we wouldn' t have the
�
roblem but would there be any y guarantee that there would be five
�Ipeople in each car?
!
!! CHAIRMAN MARTIN: No. I
i
MRS. TUTTON: Well, I hope you will consider the noise problem. The
noise problem, as I told you would not be given to us . The noise
'problem we get from the Chapter House is not when they are in the
i!
! Chapter House it 's when they get outside. Afterwards . That is
lour problem at 1 : 00, 2 : 00 or 3: 00 o 'clock in the morning,
!! i
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there questions for Mrs. Tutton?
�lff I
!i
!� i
III
Il!lIi !
II i
- 20 -
1 I
i DR. GREENBERG: Mrs. Tutton it seems that you are coming to us to
!; ask us not to approve of a tavern, which, you understand, we have
,! no control of - if they had this 4 or 5 ' - what they speak of - buf
i
!: a tavern has to be approved of by another governmental agency, I
jwould understand, is there any avenue for you to pursue this to tho
lalchohol control board?
s
�4MRS. TUTTON: I have already.
EDR. GREENBERG: You have, okay.
� MRS. TUTTON: They already called me today. Thank you.
I
� MR. WILLIAMSON: Mr. Chairman, in response to the one question that
she did raise,
I CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Right.
I
MR. WILLIAMSON: The loading area is a 16' wide lane to the south
!I i
of the current structure and the current garage which you see in
iff
jlthe pictures which we passed around and are one of the exhibits,
I�
would be torn down. That would be a loading area, am I correct?
0
MR, STOKES: The garage on the southside - not the one that is con;
nected to the carriage house but the one that 's back in. {
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Now how would that work? Would an automobile pull
in there and then have to back out into Stewart Avenue, or what
� I
sort of turn around provision is there? What you are saying is
I� that there would be a paved lane going in along side that
lMR. STOKES: Well, the only time there would be a vehicle in there ;
ii
would be for loading. Other than that it would be . . .
I
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Oh I see, this isn't clientele loading and unload-
ing.
i
MR. WILLIAMSON: Oh, no, no this is the loading and unloading of
materials and supplies .
I
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, okay. Are there others here this evenins g
who would like to speak in opposition to the requested area varianc;e?
LEO GUENTERT: My name is Leo Guentert and I am the owner of the 9
!property across the street and I 'm opposed to a variance because ofi
lithe noise and the deterioration of the property in the area due to
lithe use of the property as a tavern. Any questions?
1
( CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Thank you. I think not. Thank you. Are there
i
s
i
is
21
others who would like to speak on this matter? I see none, so we
move on to the next case .
- 22 -
i
;f BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS
CITY OF ITHACA
i
F JULY 11 , 1977
it
i
EXECUTIVE SESSION
�lAPPEAL NO. 1162
f CHAIRMAN MARTIN: I will move that the requested area variancT
i
with regard to the back yard and lot coverage
be granted subject to one condition. The
E
condition is that the consent from Cornell
i
i' University to the use of enough off-street
parking spaces to comply with the provision
lE of Section 30. 37 provide assurance of the
I
continued availability of that space for a
it
j period of at least ten years.
MR. KASPRZAK: I second the motion.
! FINDINGS OF FACT: 1. While the testimony presented about the pro*
posed use suggested that there would be verb
little problem created by the non-compliancy
�( of the back yard and lot coverage of this
ii
property built well before present zoning
a
f requirements were established, there was
i
I� more than ample testimony that the traffic
E(
j generated by the proposed use and parking il�
particular might be a problem. There is no
lf
j on-site off-street parking but the Appellants
I
seek to use parking on a lot owned by Cornell
�t
to satisfy the Ordinance ' s requirements . The
section of the Ordinance which permits such ;
I substitution requires specifically that the '
I
"continued availability" of such space be
I
assured. None of the testimony presented
I; would give us any confidence that such assur-
ance has yet been given and so this variance
I'
�!!I is granted on condition that a commitment
u
23
for a reasonable period of time ten
years - be secured.
jjVOTE: Yes 5 No 1
AREA VARIANCE GRANTED
fl�
f! �
li
- 24
j
BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS
CITY OF ITHACA
JULY 11, 1977
! Mr. Hoard announced the next case to be heard.
i
I� APPEAL NO. 1163 : Appeal of Bill Avramis for an area variance,
to extend existing porch 72 feet and enclose
!; same to create larger living areas on the
j first and second floors of premises at 117-
119 Eddy Street, in an R-3(a) use district. ;
The area variance is for insufficient lot
size and one deficient side yard.
Mr. Pichel is making this appeal .
MICHAEL PICHEL: My name is Michael Pichel , I 'm representing Bill
Avramis in this application. This is an application to improve a
property at 117 and 119 Eddy Street . It ' s for an area variance
only, there is no use problem. This is an apartment and it' s an
allowed use. I think that almost all the properties in this neigh
IIborhood are already in violation of the area requirements as the
I� regulations have been amended and passed since these buildings were
put on the properties .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Is that true, even after the most recent residenF
tial amendments which, was my understanding, were an attempt to
bring area and use requirements far closer into conformity with
i
what actually was , so, for example, there is an R-3a and an R-3b.
a
This could have been R-3b in terms . . .
MR. PICHEL: It ' s my understanding that the way these properties
are - the buildings are set on the properties that there are prob-
lems with almost all of them and this is a very small area variancje,
yard variance that we are requesting. Isn't that correct?
MR. HOARD: It is a small area variance that you are requesting. ,
MR. PICHEL: The application is to extend the back porch about 7Z'
and enclose the back porch area o
p t add living area - linin room
� g
area with a fire place for four apartments two on the first floor
I and two on the second floor. The application is for no additional
bedrooms , there will be no increase in density and that seemed to
be a large concern of the Planning Board and we come here with the,
unanimous recommendation of the Planning Board to approve the
�i CHAIRMAN MARTIN: The record of the Planning Hearing does mention 1!
f
i
25 -
11however, some alteration of interior configuation. Could you
11 elaborate on that? Is that anything other than making larger
i
living rooms or is there something more going on there?
, MR. PICHEL : No. At the time that I appeared before the Planning
Board I hadn't examined the property, and since then I have examined
it so I can give you more information about that. The first floor t
this is a six there are six apartments in this building and ther�
;i
is adequate parking. As part of this upgrading of the property,
II Mr. Avramis is improving the backyard which has a parking area. H�
is going to improve it to be full eight spaces , graded and gravele4.
I '
He is in the midst of upgrading a number of his properties and th4 ' s
the sole reason for this application now. He has found, and I hav'
I i
found it from a number of my other clients that the market place i�
�i requiring a better mousetrap, so to speak, and this application isi
so that he can improve this house . He is paneling all the rooms
and he plans to add fire places where there were none and increase;
what was a very small living area in these apartments . I ' ll get
back there
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Could you give us a sense of how what kind of
change in the living room what the . . .change will be?
MR. PICHEL: Yes . On the first floor there are two apartments.
They are presently three bedroom apartments and each - and I
i
examined the property today and I see what he is doing is - he is
i
going to continue with the three bedrooms exactly as they are
i
he is paneling them and upgrading the bedrooms, He is adding new
kitchens and adding a living area in the back of the kitchen. The'
porch will be a new living room. He is taking the very small living
!� area, that did exist and Making that into a kitchen-dining room are4
and then extending the living room to the back of the kitchen with'
i
a fire place on the first floor and I 've examined his leases and zl
can report to you that these properties have been leased and I havo
f them with me as three bedroom apartments now and he has leased thea
lfor the next year as three bedroom apartments and guarantees to tho
` Board and part of his application is that there will definitely be
no increase in density - no increase in the number of people livin�
'! i
26 - I
! in these apartments . On the second floor they are both presently
four bedroom apartments and he is doing the same thing. He is going
to add a living room behind where the present kitchen area is and
'I
l� enlarge and modernize the kitchen area with a dining area. I really
Iii
Ildon' t have much more to say. I think it ' s a very simple applicatiojn
I�
;land I ' ll answer any questions you have .
;! CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there questions' from members of the Board?
MR. GASTEIGER: I was curious to know who was responsible for not
i,
( getting a permit before this construction began?
i
� MR. PICHEL: Well, Mr. Avramis started the construction. He does
; have a permit or he had a permit for the renovation of the entire
i
inside of the apartment and he took off the porch area to improve
I� it and he didn' t have a permit for that, but he has got a permit
�jto repair that and he was asked to stop the construction and make
{
iithis application, which he has.
;I
SMR. GASTEIGER: Is he doing his own work?
I 1MR. PICHEL: He is doing some of his own work and sub-contracting
�Ithe rest,
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there further questions?
l' MR. VAN MARTER: Yes. Did I' hear six living units at present?
IMR. PICHEL: Yes .
li
II MR. VAN MARTER: I heard about two on the first floor. I heard
about two on the second floor.
`IIMR, PICHEL: There are two on the third floor that are going to be
If unchanged.
I
JEIMR. VAN MARTER: On the first floor you said he was adding a kitch '
I I qn,
Ii is that correct?
f! i
IIMR. PICHEL: He is increasing - he is remodeling the kitchen,
{ MR. VAN MARTER': Okay. Thank you,
1`
I MR, PICHEL: There is presently on the first floor apartments
s
Ithere is a kitchen and a small living room area. He is going to
Ichange that living room area into a kitchen, dining room and he is '
11adding
a living room out the back with fire place. There will be
four fire places added to this building. I think it will be a read
lilimprovement ,
E
i;
l 1
27
i
l
MR. VAN MARTER: On the first floor are three bedroom apartments ,
iOn the second floor are four bedroom apartments and on the third
,
I floor, how many bedrooms please?
Ei
IMR. PICHEL: Bill, how many bedrooms are there on the third floor j
i;
11apartments?
l
HBILL AVRAMIS: 3% rooms - 3 and one small one - second floor? j
f h
.r I
I' MR. PICHEL Third floor.
! MR. AVRAMIS: Third floor - one bedroom.
�IMR. PICHEL : They are one bedroom apartments but .they are going to
ybe unchanged.
�E
IMR. VAN MARTER: Thank you.
� CHAfiRMAN MARTIN: Further questions? I gather not. Thank you.
; Are there others here this evening who would like to be heard on
i
this request for an area variance? First are there those who woul
i
I1ike to speak in favor of the requested area variance? Are there
any who would like to speak in opposition?
RICHARD POLENBERG : My name is Richard Polenberg and I'm presidents
of the Orchard Place Assn. - Orchard Place Taxpayer' s Assn. and I '1*
here tonight to .speak in behalf of myself and the other homeowners '
on Orchard Place who are also here. They are Mr. $ Mrs . Ronald Mack,
Mrs. Jean Spitzer, Mrs . Barbara Sill and Mr. Sean Killeen and Mrs. l
i
Martha Tolles and Mrs . June Schnieder. I 'd like to try to explain ;
what our position is with respect to all of this and it ' s really
j very simple. We don' t have any objection to the improvement of a
( property that will make better accommodations to students. We
�Idon't like it when students live in poor conditions and we 're cer
I
Mainly quite willing to have that improved. The problem is that
I P p a
IIIMr. Avramis 's property very dramatically affects Orchard Place
I I
! itself and our homes on Orchard Place and in order to explain why li
, think a little background is necessary although this should take
I
lonly a moment or two. Orchard Place, as some of you probably know,!
his a private street it ' s not city street there are seven homds
ion Orchard Place most of them were built around the turn of the
'century, Most of them are very old homes and very large homes and ;
j� they've all been owned throughout the years by people who lived in
i'
�� I
! - 28 -
i
i
them. That is , there has never been absentee landlords on Orchardl
I Place and in that respect I think the street has been quite excep-
fl tional . Not only have the people who owned the homes lived in the!
!c
homes butthey have had a lot of children and that 's another featuro
�{ of Orchard Place. Over the years, but I won't try to explain but
1� I
its nevertheless true the street has always been populated by a
i
lot of small children, many of them have not gotten to be big
children but there are still a lot of little kids on the street.
i
i There are at present, I think three pre-schoolers who live on the
street and there are also three elementary school children and ones
li of the houses has just been sold to a family that I understand
has two small children there are grandchildren who come to play
on this street - there are lots of little children living on this
street and given the history of Orchard Place it seems likely thati
j� that condition will continue on into the future. Now, what exact q
is the connection between the improvements Mr. Avramis seeks and
i
Orchard Place . Well the connection I think is an obvious one.
Mr. Avramis ' s property has a right-of-way that goes across the
l
property at the bottom of Orchard Place. That right-of-way was
i originally granted T understand around the time of the first world
war to permit coal deliveries and other deliveries of that sort.
i
But over the years that right-of-way has been interpreted differently
I
and it has come to be used as an access route to the parking area
i
i� that we just heard about and so there is a situation in which the t
cars that park the student 's cars that need to park in Mr. A ram� s 's
property have to drive down Orchard Place and turn up that right-of-
way - or that access route and then park in that driveway. Now
this, of course, creates great difficulties for the street and it
creates great difficulties for the children. Students sometimes
w
drive very quickly and very often in the past we have had to warn
i the students driving their cars up and down the street that they
would simply have
p y to go more slowly. A year or so ago when the
lcondition became rather serious , in fact, very serious , we put a
sign up at the top of the street - actually it is kind of a little !
! horse that blocked part of the street to force people to slow down !
I
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_ i
29 -
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(llas saying that they should go slow because children were there. I
I
'; Now the Board of Zoning, the Zoning Board recently rezoned Orchardl
e;
H Place to take account of the residential quality and . . .
it
; CHAIRMAN MARTIN: City Council .
i
i; MR. POLENBERG: City Council, sorry. In order to preserve the
i
�Iresidential character of the street. But there does seem to be a
I
1conflict between preserving the residential character of the street
,land preserving the safety of the children on the street and havingl
traffic coming up and down it. Now what seems to us clear is that ! -
as
hat -
as this property that Mr. Avramis owns or seems to own there seems
to be some doubt actually about that, but in any event, as this I
property expands and as more people can move into the property be
' cause there is more room in it and as that parking area is expanded,
you' ll have even more cars coming up and down Orchard Place. Mr.
i
i Avramis 's lawyer talked about making it suitable for four to eight
licars . Now there never have been eight cars parking in that area
I
i, before, in fact , I think four has been the usual number although
Eoccasionally a few others have squeezed in, although when they hav4
squeezed in, it has created great difficulties for people who wantod
Ito get in and out and, if there were no right of access through
Orchard Place we would, of course, have no objection to the improv4-
ment of that property. As I said, it wouldn' t really make much dit-
i
ference and it might be a good thing for students who would have
more living spaces and more fire places . But insofar as expanding ,
or improving that property would make it possible for more and morn
cars too u
g p and down Orchard Place I think it presents a serious
hazard for children on the street and I think that it also creates
! a great difficulty with respect to the new zoning that City Council
�i
�ihas established for Orchard Place so that is the situation that wed
II
Ilfind ourselves in. It may be as was stated, that there is no in-
I
Itention to have an increase in density but I think the same question
comes up that came up with respect to the earlier case and that isil
what happens in several years if that house is sold and somebody
i,
I
, then owns the House, its a larger house, there are more rooms and
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E
30 -
I I
imore people can be squeezed in, why then they might very well be
.( squeezed in and in fact I think that if that parking area should b4
E
Elexpanded and more people move into the house and more cars go up I
w
land down this street then there is a very, very serious problem an4
11the street may be zoned as a residential street but when you have
IE
; that kind of traffic going up and down a dead end street with a to
of small children who want to play on it, then you don't have a j
i
( residential section any longer. I think the situation is bad, as !
1
it exists. I would hope that we could do something about it and
we would hope to try to change it somehow. But a bad situation or !
having a bad situation is one thing and making a bad situation wor e
is quite another thing. So here I think the interest is fairly
clear. We are not talking about noise and we are not talking aboui
i
a problem with people sort of hanging around at night or anything j
of the sort. We are talking about a lot of little children who lice
on the street and their safety and off-setting that is not the
I
matter, as you heard in the earlier case, of sort of making a prop4,
erty which had not been used for very much into something else,
( which may or may not be the right thing to do here it is simply
matter of making it more profitable for the person who owns it at
the expense, I think, of creating serious difficulties for those
of us who live on the street and our children. At any rate I would
be glad to answer any questions you have but I am sure that other
{ members of the Orchard Place Assn, or other homeowners would also
llike to be heard.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright. I do have a question, It seems to me F
I
that you are mixing in a rather heavy dose of expansion of parking ;
(lin your remarks and in outlining the problem for us. And since there
E
� is no variance that concerns parking here, I 'm a little bit - I kind
of want to understand how to fit that in myself. That is to say,
I
I take it that the property owner has come here with representations
� of improving the parking situation because in most cases that "s
j
something that the Board looks very favorably upon although in thi�
i
peculiar case, at least from your standpoint, it would be better olf
�I
�� f
I�
I
- 31 -
ip if there was no off-street parking and all the parking went on in
j Eddy Street for this property. Well , I mean, that' s a peculiarity;
I in this case . The only variance request here concerns, not the
parking, but the rear addition which we are told will not add to
j the number of bedrooms.
MR. POLENBERG: But you are also told, or at least I just heard
Mr. Avramis ' s lawyer state that there would be an improvement in
the parking area to make room for four to eight cars . Now, I
r
i understand, that from your point of view . . .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Well , from our point of view, no permission
I
would be needed to improve the parking for that number of cars .
They could leave the building as it is and make moreparking there
for the tenants and make the apartment a more attractive one for
tenants and furnish more off-street parking.
MR. POLENBERG: Right. I think that that is true, I suppose that
it could be done that way. What I am saying is that any. hypothe-
tical situation is possible but in the normal course of events
someone is much more likely to expand parking area and squeeze in
more cars if there is a financial gain in doing it and you do it
if, by expanding your property, you can bring in more tenants or -
that, I think is what is going to happen when you add on these
i
kinds of rooms, at least it makes it possible to do that. I don' t ;
believe, in other words, . . .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: It strikes you as a likely result, adding on, no�
;
a bedroom but what ends up being called a living room with a fire
`o
palce, that there will —three or four or five years from now be
more tenants in that property.
MR. POLENBERG: Students at Cornell have been known sometimes to
( sleep in living rooms .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Sleep in living rooms . Are there further questi§ns?
KASPRZAK: My question was just answered.
IMR.
jCHAIRMAN MARTIN; Thank you. Now, others have been mentioned. Would
11
anyone else like to come forward and add to the testimony on this
I
icase?
i
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,a j
SII i
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6 j
MARTHA TOLLES: Mr. Chairman, members of the Board, I 'm Martha I
i'= Tolles, I live on Orchard Place. My husband' s family has lived on '
!l Orchard Place since 1947. It is a lovely, private street. The
i+
'ifirst thing I heard when I came here was that we own Orchard Place '
H which means we pave Orchard Place, which means that when it snows , ]
lour elected chairman at the moment, Mr. Pollenberg, gets somebody j
, to come in and clean it off when we need to use Orchard Place.
i
' The kids use it to snow on, to slid on, to play on, It ' s a dead e
lend street. At one time, I understand from Arnold, Orchard Place
I
they tried to give it to the city and the city said thank you, digs
it through to Eddy Street and we' ll gladly take it. The members
said "No thank you, we can' t afford you. " So, it is private, it i�
t� my property. Mrs , Sill and I live on the corners of Orchard Place (
� s
and - I 'm trying to explain this - and Orchard Place and Blair St.
We are responsible for that land. We are responsible for keeping
it up. Now, here ' s a dead end. Now way back two sisters - as you
seem to know, I 've been here probably less time than the rest of ytu
I
but I have - it' s meant a lot to us two sisters , one owned the i
I
house that the Mack' s live in and her sister built the one on Eddy !,
} I
Place . Because it was hard to get up Eddy Street - a wagon in
1914 you took wagons to deliver your coal - to get a wagon up, tha�
!! I
lishe just put it in her house - you may have access across my lawn
! my yard, that's what his property says access across - to deliver
your coal. Now the word coal was deleted over a period of years ,
i
Ifor your delivery. Now that 's why it was put in. Then automobi es
�Rcame in plus the fact that the coal kind of went out of as heat ano
i
, I am sure there hasn' t been any coal delivered on that street for Ot
least 45 years, so it hasn't been necessary for that. So here is
what you were trying to understand. This street private street -�
it is owned by us . We put in the curbs, we put in the asphalt,
�1when it needs repairing we have to fork up the money the city
doesn' t pay one penny for it. It 's used by these students or by
i
! that property to go down and then to go across the Mack' s yard. '
i
That ' s all they have access to go across for deliveries - to go
if I
i(
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33 -
�; j
J!
ilacross that yard and now they are putting in parking places back
there. That ' s what the parking places are - in their back yard.
?I i
(► They are putting back there parking places . Now if you have five
!
or six families or students living there - rental places they al
ii have friends and I think I - we all like the students - after all , !
the street makes its living on the Cornell students practically
lithe town does , we all know that so , but, here they go two
yo 'clock in the morning, three o 'clock in the morning they run up !
nand down the street.. Now, they mentioned the Fire Department. We !
i
do keep them -- but we don' t park on the street. We do in emergencies
i
but we own it. There is no reason why I can' t park on my own prop-,
erty but everybody else is coming down its reaching the stage -
i
you can't even get through Orchard Place. It 's being torn apart by
i
building and all of this , But it is a private street is what I !4
I
trying to palce and because it is a private street, families with
little children have enjoyed living there because they can play.
( There is a park at the other end that we maintain at the other e4d
i
of Orchard Place so that 's what the objection is - I think it 's
wonderful he' s fixing up this property but if he will come up from !
I
Eddy Street and go to the parking, we don' t object to the parking I!
back there in the least, we object to how they get to the parking. i
Do you understand?
CHAIRMAN MARTIN; I understand that and that physical relationship ;
is clear. What is not clear is how that relates to this request
� I
► for a variance, at least the request for a variance concerns an I
expansion which adds a living room to two units. It may well be
that there is recourse for those of you who own Orchard Place but
that recourse, if you have one, based on the terms of the original ]
right-of-way,g y, would not be a concern of the Board.
MARTHA TOLLES: Well we have another suggestion - we just zoned
I
Jresidential as President Pollenberg pointed out - we just rezoned
!residential so that it would stay a residential - it ' s a jewel of Ian
'area _. so that it would stay that way. Alright , we would suggest
i
that if that house would like to rezone with us, residential , we �
i !
Mould love to welcome him as a member of the Orchard Place Society.
ff
Ij
i
IE! 34
i!
i
Buy that strip of land remember he doesn't own any land on
j Orchard Place, he would have to buy it from Mr. Mack. All Mr.
ii Mack has to do is to let them run across - let him run across his
yard. It doesn't have to be a driveway or anything else, that' s
it what his lease - his property says . If he wants to rezone to
I�
I; residential , move there himself and maybe rent to two students , we.
y
ii would love to have another member on Orchard Place but he would, o
course, have to buy the access to the property. But we just zoned
now there is another choice that we can all just say the heck with
the zoning that we fought so hard to save this little area because
I
I can get twenty students in my house and it isn' t hard. Every
house there can get fifteen to twenty students in it without spend
I
ing a penny. Of course, five years from now it' ll be shell - theyhll
i
be shells. But by the time the courts could get the students out
i
I gosh I 'd have a lot more money out of the house than I can possibl�
I
sell it for as a residence and so would everybody else on the
street but we want to live there. We want it to be a residentia
area you see what I mean? If the city feels that that area is
i
needed for student housing then we will move some place else. Thel
i
people will cease living there. I mean its just that simple. It
I
either has to be residential and protect us - we are asking for
protection.
I
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: What I am saying is that insofar as you feel
abused and that the provisions of a 1914 easement are being surpas ed,
this is not the place to seek protection. That our solo question
i
is whether or not the requested area variance in this case meets
the terms of the Ithaca Zoning Ordinance and it si a peculiarity
i
of this case that in seeking that area variance the appellant has
spoken of improving off-street parking. And that has adverse con-
sequences for Orchard Place. I
( MRS. TOLLES: Yes - If you call Orchard Place off-street, See iI
is private property. Thank you very much.
(( CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there questions for Mrs. Tolles? Thank you, !
i 1
�jSEAN KILLEEN: My name is Sean Killeen, 111 Orchard Place. I sham
the sentiments of Mr. Pollenberg and Mrs. Tolles. I won't repeat
I
�I
1
l - 35 -
,i
�6
i the arguments but I have had the advantage of listening to what
i; they say and I think I can clarify a few points that seem terribly !
clear to me but may indeed be a bit confusing for the Board here. i
The recent zoning - rezoning of the city of a month or so ago
' provided a strange kind of phenomena - it split the properties j
i
ii between Mr. Mack' s house as referred to, which is at the end of
� Orchard Place but also has an Eddy Street address and Mr. Avramis ' �
I
! property. There is a line between them. One zoning area - next
i
door is another. When the zoning hearings were - the code usage, y
terminology is a little off - but you can get the flavor of what I !
i� mean - when those hearings were going on I asked the question of -
�iperhaps Bickley Townsend or Mr. VanCort - I forget exactly whom, I
I �
said, in creating an island - which they've done with about fifteeip
jof sixteen properties in the Orchard Place area and also State and ;
Mitchell and Blair - would there be any specific advantage given
I
Ito particularly the families that are on the edge of this island i
i
because, where the main stream is one kind of usage - i .e. : commert
cial usage like Mr. Avramis 's property and as those waves wash up, C
l
because there is a considerable difference in commercial usage and ;
Collegetown area - East Hill area and what we are trying to hold !
out as residential area. Now would there be any particular advan-
tage for encouraging force that would be given to this island to i
i
help sustain its identity and integrity and tax base and all these
other terms? A clear answer wasn't given because I don' t think
i
there is a clear answer but I was thinking specifically of this
property. Let me ask go back to the notice that was sent in the
mail . I am confused specifically by the notice and also a questio�
that comes out of it. The second paragraph begins "The owner of t�e
i
property, etc. etc. " and it moves down to the bottom - the last fe�
I
statements that said "No additional occupancy is requested, no
additional occupancy will result ." It is my understanding that
where I had assumed Mr. Avramis was the owner, it has become less
! clear that this indeed is the case. I understand that there is ani
I
i� individual by the name of George Harper who, in fact , is the deed
i
f'
i - 36 -
i I
I
( holds the deeds for the property at 117-119 Eddy Street. I am un- i
l
ii clear on this point and clarification might be useful because , in- !
(� deed, if the owner as referred to here, Bill Avramis , is not in
I
fact the owner, how can commitments about no additional occupancy, ]
iI
� no additional this , no additional that , indeed be made .? Does it
f make sense? Indeed the owner, it seems to me , now maybe this is a !
technicality that I 'm unfamiliar with but I should think the owner ;
I{ of the property is the one to whom the variance should be - should ':,
request the variance and the variance should be given to that . . .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Well , you raise a legitimate question and one I
u
�! think that the Board would want to pursue. All of the papers that
I we have making the appeal , seeking the variance - are signed by Bill
�i Avramis as owner of the property. So that it would be interesting]
,
alright that 's one issue.
it
!i SEAN KILLEEN: Well , my point is, also . . , I don' t know that but
perhaps, indeed that if there is some client or relationship there;
jperhaps I don't know, a tenant may indeed be able to perhaps a
owner doesn' t necessarily have to seek such permission. Can a client
or someone in a contractual relationship - a building manager or
f
�! someone like that?
I�
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Our rules ask that the appeal be signed by the
owner or that is someone other than the owner is pursuing the appe�l ,
that written permission from the owner in written consent form be
I
P� filed.
SEAN KILLEEN: Another point in the notice that you sent to us is
{� that this petition seeks an area variance for this specific proper�y.
'I Now the recent zoning code established specifications for the type'`:
of building in certain districts of the city, It 's my question and
f
I 1 think its a genuine concern, is to what extent does the building;
it at 117 - 119 Eddy presently conform with etisting codes and to what!
ii
i� extent the variance that is requested will that take it further
away from uniform code or closer to uniform code and secondly, to
what extent will this variance, if requested, influence the property
immediately next door, which is an entirely different zoning area
i.
I
i
37 -
ij
�i and will this on the surface perhaps indeed be no more than a back
fj
jporch job, ostensibly improving the particular property, but indeed
i
If will it undercut the adjacent property because of the dissimilarity
l in usage availability because of existence in different zones?
i
H We haven' t really heard from anyone on the other side which would �e
f going northward up Eddy Street which is the same - next to 117-119 ;
I!
which is the same zone that 117-119 are in I 'm speaking from the :
11 south side of this particular property in question which is a dif-
ii ferent zone. I think Mr. Pollenberg and Mrs. Tolles talked about
14 this problem and hit it on the head but we have a particular dilemma
i
that a simple petition, if accommodated could indeed undercut what ;
; the City Council tried to do in establishing certain zoning areas
and particularly the Orchard Place one and I think all of this
+ I
I, should be born into consideration.
s'
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright - I think I answered your question or at
i
least the middle one of them- by saying that as presented to us
I' this case or the proposed addition in this case create runs into
11}} only two problems under the zoning ordinance . Those problems are
1what brings it to this Board. If those problems didn' t exist the
!i g building permit would issue routinely out of the Building Commis
t
' sioner ' s office. Those problems are that the lot size is roughly
Isix percent deficient for the building with the addition. And tha�
i
it will have a side yard up to - rather than 5 ' - as the ordinance ;
1would require. And those two aspects of the building as added to ,
1;
fare what require an area variance, but in other respects the zoning
4t
I! ordinance is complied with by that building. Am I right?
1 MR. HOARD: Yes .
f
; CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright.
�' MR. KILLEEN: Are there questions?
i
4
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there questions?
�HMR. KASPRZAK: I think the question of the ownership should be takgn
I
'jup with Mr. Avramis .
CHAIRMAN Martin: T plan to ask the appellant to respond to that
question,
i'
ii
i)
I) - 38 -
jMR. KILLEEN: Just a comment on that - we could not underscore our !
i;
'! concern more greatly than just expressed because the good faith an�
', intention of whatever may happen seems to hinge on it. Thank you. ,
,! CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright are there others who would like to speak '
in opposition? Yes .
ii
HBARBARA SILL : I 'm Barbara Sill and I own the house on the corner of
�i
_El Orchard Place and Blair Street and our five children have grown upf
:i
there and enjoyed the uniqueness of that neighborhood. One of the ;
things that concerns us is the fact that if a person puts that much
;, money into building onto a house they expect a return and they usu-,
i!
i�
4! ally get the return by putting in more people. We thought also of {the
,! possibility of having the people that are parking at that property ;
ai
`, get access through Cook Street which is zoned in the same area and 'i
i
is largely students and we just think that if they could get it in `i
'1that direction it would avoid this problem of having many cars ,
1l usually at least twenty a day because of the comings and goings
j� from that one household. Thank you.
i�
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Thank you. Are there others who would like to
I
speak in opposition? Alright. Could someone come forward and clar,,i-
i
1Ify question of ownership of this property? As I said in response to
I,
the question, The Board rules and regulations provide that an appeal
the appeal form should be signed by the owner of the property or, if
H
1Ithe owner has an agent designated agent - to present an appeal the
owner must then sign a consent form.
' MICHAEL PICHEL: I didn' t think there was any problem in this regarjd.
lMr. Avramis is the equitable owner of this property. He has the
�i
,!property by land contract and if you feel that that is of some con-i,
i
r cern, he has all the rights of Mr. Harper and we could file some
,I
;(thing in Mr. Harper' s name .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright so he holds the land contract which, upon;
I
11making payments will produce a deed which will make him full legal
Downer.
IMR. PICHEL : Yes , he is the equitable owner, the Certificate of
Occupancy has been issued in his name, all the papers all along havo
li
i
j 39
!i
been issued in Mr. Avramis ' s name. There' s not been any concern
ilabout that. Let me say one thing about this living room. I went
f� I
!1!1up and checked this out myself - this was the main concern of the
II
�IPlanning Board was that this was not some sort of subterfuge to ad�
dextra bedrooms. The bedrooms - as they are - this living room,
j1dining room, kitchen area is designed as an open area. It is not
I
!( going to be a bedroom area and there is no way it could be. In
�i
j' fact, Mr. Avramis is willing to make any kind of conditional thing ;
i
that this is the way its going to be built. The property has to
meet the building code and all the other requirements of the
�I t
jBuilding Department when its finished - so I don' t think that 's any
�II;
problem. The return Mr. Avramis is going to get an increase return
Wand it is a planned increase in rental . This is going to be a muc4
more desirable property and its going to get an increased rental .
3
My experience has been that Cornell University students have wanted
1Imuch less dense housing. When I first camehere in 164 it was not
luncommon to have double and triple bedrooms . And I think its
llalmost universal now that all the students expect to have one bed
h room. I dont think they are going to be sleeping in the living room
11of this kind of a semi-luxurious apartment is what he is trying to
i t
(! design there with these fire places, The parking area is legitimate
it is going to be increased in its scope - he is permitted to do j
e
, that and he is doing it in any event. I don't think it has it ' s ;
,lnot connected with this application
,
Ii CHAIRMAN MARTIN: The only access to that parking area that is
i!
expanding in scope is across Orchard Place?
IMR. PICHEL : Through his right-of-way and if there is any legal
1problem there I think that would be the way that it would have to 1e
(` taken care of, This has been parking for some time and as far as
i
,ll know there is no problem. There hasn' t been any but that, I don"t
ithink is connected with this application in any way - the parking
i
area. We really thought we were doing an improvement and that he
0
' was doing an improvement on there , I had no idea that this was ani
i' objection at all
�i
i
A �
I 1
40 -
f
IICHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there further questions from members of the 1
'r
�i Board?
1MR. PICHEL: This property has been inspected by the Building De
'apartment also. They know what it was and there is no increase in
apartments or anything like that . !
HCHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, is there anything new to be added by way!
of testimony on this case? Anything that the Board has not been
0
apprised of? Yes .
i
JEAN SPITZER: This is not new testimony, I just wanted to ask a
` simple question.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: You are? Jean Spitzer, she lives on Orchard
Place she says. I
l�JEAN SPITZER: The only question I have, I mean I believe that Mr.
JAvramis does not intend to increase the density - there is no assurI-
lance that the next owner will not increase the density - therefore,;
could it be written into the variance as part of the thing that there
could only be so many people inhabiting the house?
! Chairman MARTIN: A question.. The answer is yes conditions can be
!,written into variances . Alright. the Board has considerable hesi�
,tati;on , to write conditions in that require close scrutiny of a
i
!property monitoring bedrooms, etc. but in any event it is within
1 I
Ithe scope of the Board' s power to attach a condition to a variance.;
�II might ask for the appellant ' s reaction to such a proposed conditipn.
MR. PICHEL: I 've already discussed this and he ' s not opposed to that
i at all.
�'CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Not opposed to the condition. i
MR. KASPRZAK: In the application itself it says if you want a
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I1written record actually, it says no additional occupancy will resuljt,
jno increase in density will result, so.
I!MRS. SPITZER: If he should sell the property then that is no longeF. . .
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!CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Right.
MR. KASPRZAK: His variance goes with the property not with the
ownership,
�IMRS. SPITZER: Oh, I didn't know . . .
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ii CHAIRMAN MARTIN: True, but without a specific condition than thoso
'' assurances, promises , intentions would not qualify
MR. KASPRZAK: It should be written right on the application as
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13 part of . . .
11CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Sure . . . alright .
! MRS. SPITZER: One further question, since the - I mean the parkin
is a major problem, I mean occasionally visitors at that house pari
on my property as which they should not, of course, do. But I I
was wondering whether there could be some sort of condition writte�
( in restricting the number of cars which could be - use that parkin
I lot. That also might, to some extent relieve our fears .
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright . Well as I 've said the Board can add
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conditions . The Board would be hesitant , I think, to enter into
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what, in jy judgment at least, is a dispute about property rights
and dimensions of an easement and the relationship between the owners
of what is a private way and those who are using it. Now this
provides , this hearing provides an occasion for all of you to sharp
I{ your fears with the property owner concerned.
MRS. SPITZER: Yes , perhaps Mr. Avramis would not object to that,
I don' t know, he may own it or he may not.
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i CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Do you have a response to that?
I` MR. PICHEL: I really think that having the parking there improves'
the neighborhood and really takes the pressure off of the streets
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and . . . it may have some additional traffic going through that
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right-of-way but I don' t really see that as a problem,
MRS. TOLLES: It ' s not your driveway.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright. It was proposed that the additional
( parking ought to be viewed as a plus rather than a minus although
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it was conceded it had adverse impact, through the form of addi-
tional use of the right-of-way.
MRS. TOLLES: But Orchard Place is only a - in our deeds it says
that only the rsidents of Orchard Place . . .
(� CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Well then, excuse me - the Board's role is not df
a Court enforcing the terms of your deeds or the right-of-way.
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I and your rights to Orchard Place . While it is quite easy to under
;, stand that your concern about this property is a result of that
iright-of-way
and that leads you to be concerned with the density irk
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that building which is a concern that relates as has been explaine4
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to the addition. Something the Board is concerned with. It is no'
lithe Board' s role to resolve the respective rights, the owner of th4t
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liproperty and the owner' s of Orchard Place. Thank you. You havel
a question?
� MR. KILLEEN: Just a point of procedure . If the petition you are
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shearing at this moment, if you affirm it and grant the permission, ;
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might this not cause a situation, some construction, an addition of
something that may indeed be undone if we do take recourse throughl
the courts . So indeed should perhaps this petition be held in
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abeyance until the first province is exercised. Because if you al�ow
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a variance that expands _ separates this property at 117-119 Eddy
Street from existing uniform codes, and we have to take recourse
through the courts , are you allowing something to proceed that sub
sequently may indeed, have to be undone? Should we first get a f
reading on that in fairness to the plaintiff?
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Well the plantiff would have to make their own
judgement about that element of uncertainty in the situation. The
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Board is certainly not competent to itself appraised the liklihood
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of your private recourse in this dispute. Are there others who wo� ld
like to speak to add additional information that would help the
Board make the decision in this case? Seeing none . , .
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MR, VAN MARTER: I 'd like to have that reviewed one more time.
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You've said it twice, on account of the questions that have been
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further and continually answered I 'm sure it ' s not understood.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: What would you like me to say again? Why don' t
i you say what you'd like me to say?
MR. VAN MARTER: Responsibility of this Board pertains to the appl� -
cation, that 's all. If there are rights on private property that
I= are being abused, that ' s outside of the perview of this Board.
Speaking as an individual I could not vote for a condition that hao
anything to do with parking on other than the land that 's describea
in the application.
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, can we now move on to the next case?
the next case is?
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j BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS
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CITY OF ITHACA I
j JULY 11, 1977
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EXECUTIVE SESSION
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APPEAL NO. 1163 :
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1ICHAIRMAN MARTIN: I will move that the requested area varianc�
�j be denied in case 1163.
JUDITH MAXWELL: I second the motion. !
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FINDINGS OF FACT: 1. Nothing in the testimony presented indicate
that the two units in question could not bei
1 improved or upgraded within the confines of
the structure as it existed before construc4
tion began. We are therefore unable to fin
that the requirements of the Ordinance im-
posed any sort of practical difficulty.
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C 2 . Density is a problem in the neighborhood
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and so any increase in the number or size
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= of habitable rooms is a cause for concern.
( VOTE : Yes 6 No 0
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I AREA VARIANCE DENIED.
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j BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS i
CITY OF ITHACA j
JULY 11 , 1977
IiMr. Hoard announced the next case to be heard:
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11APPEAL NO. 1164 : Appeal of Curtis L. Pfaff for a Special
�i Permit to use a portion of the premises at
527 N. Aurora Street, in an R-2b use dis-
trict for a home occupation, specifically
h for a travel consulting firm.
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IIMR, HOARD: Mr. Sullivan is representing the applicatn.
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay, can I help anchor us all in the new pro- j
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visions since this special permit for a home occupation is brand
new to the Board? Under the revised zoning ordinance, home occu-
pations are permitted in R- 2 zones by special permit. Home occu-
pation is defined in somewhat revised terms in the text of the
ordinance as amended and then there is some general language about !
issuance of special permits that is also part of the text that
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Council adopted in late May.
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MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you. May it please the Board I 'd like to first
of all introduce myself. fi'm William Sullivan, I 've been before
some of you before, although I see some new faces since the last '
time I was here, Here tonight on this matter are Jimmy Colbert, Ii
call him, Jimmy because I 've known him as Jimmy since I 've been a
1young5ter in the neighborhood, and Curtis Pfaff. Jimmy Colbert anc
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his wife, Emma Lou, presently own the premises at 527 N. Aurora St.�
These premises are located on the southeast corner of Aurora Street
and Marshall Street and, at least as long as I can remember, until
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very recently, and Jimmy can give you the dates if you are interested,
that Jimmy had a corner grocery store a neighborhood store - in
the downstairs portion of the premises which served the neighborhood -
served all the kids with bubble gum cards and everything else that 'we
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fused to go into Jimmy' s for. Jimmy retired a few years ago and at
I� that time made his store over into a community center, the store I
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portion of the premises . He was before you people not too long age
� and requested a variance to permit the installation of an apartment
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11of one or two two room - how many rooms is it Jimmy?
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JAMES COLBERT: One, three room apartment.
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MR. SULLIVAN: It' s a three room apartment - one bedroom apartmentj-
kin one corner of the premises and he and his wife, Emma Lou, continue
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J1 LU reside upstairs. In this particular case I 'm here representing
C` Curtis Pfaff who is a contract vendee with respect to the premises
one of the conditions under the sale contract is the obtaining of
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,! this Board's approval so that Mr. Pfaff may operate a travel con-
111sultant ' s office in the portion of the premises formerly occupied
�lby Jimmy and his wife, Emma Lou, as a store. The - Mr. Pfaff is j
here he ' s the Chairman, as many of you no doubt know, he ' s the
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Chairman of the Social Studies Department at the high school and has,
in conjunction with that, conducted tours in the past , himself, an
has given advice to many, many people regarding the type of things !
! they ought to see on a tour and other related things like that. I�
Ihe ' s permitted - if a special permit is granted by the Board what
! would happen is that this would be kind of a part time endeavor with
Mr. Pfaff. He intends to continue his work with the high school a d
f' he would be putting in, probably a classroom, probably a library
in the downstairs , perhaps a bathroom and opening up the premises
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again, continuing to open them up as a community center, this time
directed toward a travel consulting. He would conduct seminars an4
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!! lectures for interested educational and other groups. He would hold
slide and movie showings in the premises . He would have a travel
preference library and gave general travel advice to anyone who is
! interested. There would be no bookings, no ticket sales or other
related travel agent activities conducted by Mr, Pfaff at the pre-
Imises . If an individual wished to purchase tickets or book a
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flight or whatever, that would have to be done through one of the
travel bureaus here in the city or wherever. Jimmy Colbert is here
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to answer any questions you may have. Mr. Pfaff is here to answer ,
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any questions you may have. If I can further identify the area foci
you, I 'd like to make reference
Y � just a moment to the general plant
lIreferred to as the area which would be developed into an office area
!land a multiple family housing and that sort of thing. That has
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! been somewhat changed I guess by the recent enactments by Common
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!' Council and without referring to those enactments at all let me
1emerely indicate that but for those enactments of a couple months a�o ,
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i, we wouldn' t even have to be here tonijzht requesting a special permit .
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11The home occupation would certainly have 'been permitted in the areas
Ilunder the old R-3 zoning. For reasons which aren't necessary to gc�
Minto that zoning area has been changed now from an R-3 to an R-2
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i' area and which provides for a special permit for a home occupation '
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Igranted by this Board. Are there any questions?
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: fi do have questions. I suppose they would be
directed to Mr. Pfaff as they concern the consulting travel con-
sulting business. Alright, as I do this let me, sort of, direct a�l
of our attention to the - `what I see as being the critical provisions
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I� of what is , for all of us , new zoning language. On page 4 of the
text, the slightly revised definition of home occupation is spelled
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out and the new language which I 'd like to direct our attention to
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'The Home Occupation shall not generate traffic in any greater
volume then would normally be expected in a residential neighborho6d
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and any need for parking generated by the occupation shall be met Off
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the street and subject to the regulations of the off-street parkin
Isection. " Could you address yourself to the kind of traffic that
you would expect a travel consulting business to generate?
CURTIS PFAFF : Alright.. Curtis Pfaff, of currently 214 University
Avenue. In the past I have usually handled seminars at shcool . Al
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large percentage of my clientele is made up of students . Upon
Sunday afternoons we have usually held these seminars. So it would
probably generate more traffic than would be there on a normal
Sunday afternoon, yes. But, it would not be more than what would
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fbe normal for any other day. Many of these students , of course,
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would walk, or come with parents and be dropped off. Some of the {
parents are also welcome to stay. I envision this as a neighborhood
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center so that anybody from the area could also come and take part{
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There should be no parking problem because the whole area there -
�ithere is no parking on that east side of Aurora but the west side *',
there is normal parking , The same for Marshall Street, the same f�r
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HFarm and all the rest of the area. It shouldn't really generate j
Many additional traffic especially for a normal business day. Most J
' of this work would be done in the evenings and on weekends . Does
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f�that answer your question?
j�CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Right. Now could you flush out just a bit further
for us a sense of what travel consulting consists of, how many people
jyou expect to have how often
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MR. PFAFF: It ' s a new venture . In the last ten (10) years I have
taken 350 people to Europe with me. Now that ' s an average of
thirty five (35) a year. That ' s not a great many. As part of that
I would usually hold about seven (7) seminars, as I say, usually
on Sunday afternoon. But , as a result of that I have people calling
}me all the time. I handle many telephone calls saying "where are
you going?" or "what about this" or "do you have a folder on this?";
�or "do you have a booklet on that?" and so I see a need. I don' t
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,anticipate making that much money but I do anticipate having a lot
`of fun and still continuing my educational enterprise as I approach
that period of retirement. I would hope that ultimately gradually o
move into this as a retirement field. Not as a great big business , o
any extent but as a consultant where people could come and browse
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land could find materials to maybe look at maps , to pick up some old
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history books maybe and just get some educational background or jusft
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come in and browse and talk travel. My idea is basically that I sejll
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dreams. The travel agents - they sell tickets . My satisfaction isi
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the satisfaction of watching these people as they go to a place for
ithefirst time and say "hey, there it is . ,,
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay. The other place that provides us a touch j
down in deciding what we have to pay attention to in granting or
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( denying a special permit is the new language on special permits that
Z see being relevant is on page 11 of the text that Board members I
,have. "No special �
p permit shall be recommended by the Board of Planl-
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ping $ Development or granted by the Board of Appeals unless the
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`proposed use or activity meets the following requirements : Locatioh
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; and size of the use, etc. etc. . . . shall be such that it will be it
ilharmony with the existing or intended character of the neighborhood
,land will not discourage the appropriate development of adjacent
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land and buildings or impair the enjoyment or value thereof" and
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then there is - in the next section, a concern with noise, fumes ,
livehicular traffic, parking, vibrations, flashing lights , etc.
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Flashing lights?
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IMR. PFAFF: Not that I know of. Maybe some red flowers out in
front. No flashing lights .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: How are the neighbors going to know that this is ::
('ihappening? What kind of advertising, if any, are you . . .
1MR. PFAFF: Alright , as I envision this , it is an extension basically
(lof what Jimmy has been doing over the past years. His store was
,! always an economic school , an economic education in itself. The
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! children were always coming there, as Bill can well tell you, as
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!Ithe neighborhood can tell you. It was a gathering center. You i
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could walk in and in and you would find kids reading comic books .
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! Well , I would hope that now you could walk in and find them maybe
reading , if not comic books maybe some history books . I see no
difference. At the present time Jimmy has had it set up as a
! community center. I envision it in that same capacity. It lust
dawned on me in relation to traffic, I would probably generate lass
traffic then he ever did as a grocery store , with lots of people
Il coming and going all the time.
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i' MR. GASTEIGER: How many at one of your best seminars?
lMR. PFAFF: At the best seminars the one year - and I would never'
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'Ido it again the one year I had 57 people. I would never have that
11many again. It 's too many.. At the most, I would normally have
!! thirty five people. Normally it ranges fifteen to twenty people -
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is what it amounts to.
11CHAIRMAN MARTIN: As I understand it it is quite clear in the
11ordinance that a home occupation requires that you, in fact , reside,
,lin the structure. You plan to live there?
MR. PFAFF : That's right, yes . That was one thing that was very
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!' attractive was the apartment that Jimmy and Emma Lou are moving outs of,
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11MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Pfaff is currently in the process of trying to
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;; sell his home on 214 University Avenue so that his intent is to move
This possessions and belongings and whatnot to the upstairs apart-
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�Iment where Jimmy and Emma Lou now live .
iMR. PFAFF: Move my books from there and from some of those from i
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Ilthe resource room at school where I have had to put them because I
. had no more room at home. Make a library.
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� MR. SULLIVAN: I - have a picture if that would help. Is that your
picture Jimmy? Is that an extra one?
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,MR. COLBERT Yes.
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(CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Can you leave it with us? Thank you. You can
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�Icall that Exhibit 1 in this case. j
jMR. SULLIVAN: That picture clearly shows the mercantile character
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�of the building with a front step and a doorway much as you would
find in a store. Although Jimmy has now used that as a community i
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1center, Jim, maybe you could tell the Board something about the
type of thing you have been doing over the last few years since
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you've retired from the grocery business .
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�JJIM COLBERT: Well , first I 'd like to say thatwhen we designed the
jlbuilding, about twenty-eight years ago , after the fire , we wanted
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to keep it like the other buildings in the neighborhood, not to
identify it as a store but as a dwelling. As you can see, as the
!picture passes around, that it is in character of the neighborhood,
the neighbors always appreciated that and they told us many times
how happy they are that we didn' t commercialize the neighborhood.
And it but all through the years I find that youngsters - and
y forty-five years in the grocery business - I got to know them an�
ithe parents took great delight in the fact that the youngsters i
1� ould tell me things that they wouldn't even tell their parents . We
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ad a nice atmosphere and the youngsters I gave all the youngsters
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redit because I knew that when I was a youngster we would get
ungry, so hungry we couldn't wait until we got something to eat at
1�ome, and it was a great temptation for them to take things . So we -
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every time we would catch anyone taking things - why when are yo4
going to pay for it? We would mark it down and never force them t9
" pay but when they were hungry, they wanted an apple or an orange of
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'Ja banana, they could get it, mark it down, sign their name and ver ,
rarely, anyone - I'd ever ask them for it, therefore when thirty
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Idays went by and they hadn't paid it, I 'd say it ' s about time for
you to sweep the walk or pick up the papers and the neighbors were
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jlalways so happy to think that the children helped keep the neighbo�,-
hood clean. There was no trash around the store, no bottles or tir
cans or popcycle wrappers because we took pride in cleaning it . They
jwere a lovely group of people, Now they are grown up into men and ;
'women and they still have those nice qualities of community spirit.;
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MR. SULLIVAN: Jimmy, more recently what have you been doing with
,jthe property, the community center type aspect that you developed
! in recent years.
I�MR. COLBERT: Well, the magazines that people would bring in the
store while I had the store one day my wife gave me some magazines
to toss out. You know, they pile up quite fast so I just put them
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on the counter until I had time to take them and put them in the
trash. Someone came in, and said how much are your magazines? It
gave me an idea, I said, actually they are However, the'.
!magazines -sold and people would hold a book sale and we sold little;
books - Curtis can vouch for that because a lot of people brought
books in because they didn't want to throw them away, they had no
room for them that was before the library had the book sale and
so for years I just had a little library there. It was so much fun;
reading they didn' t have to bring the book back if they wanted it
but just to pass it along and give it to somebody else. And I would.
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greatly appreciate Mr. Pfaff carrying out some of the ideas or he iS
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.going to have abetter system than I had because he is going to have
ia world history class there and I 'm going to attend one of those
seminars and I would like sometime , if I could get over the fear of
flying, . , . a doctor told me to get a pint of elderberry brandy -
and that got me on the plane. I have a fear of flying because I i
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have a book I want to complete and I 'm afraid maybe perhaps if I
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IItake too many chances I wont get the book completed and I have somo
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j� ancestors that live in Wales - my great grandfather was a Baptist
!( minister in Wales and I 'd like to go over and check him out. My j
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other great grandfather was a grocer - first grocer in southwest
Pennsylvania, in this area so I 'm a cross between talking back of
the counter and engaging people in conversation to find out - you
know we learn from everybody. everyone we meet is our superior in
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something and I had iust a beautiful time in the grocery business j
all of these years plus it wasn't work for me . Cause I knew that
was going to learn something that day and people knew that I was
,i looking for information and they would tell me things - it really !
II was super.
i MR. SULLIVAN Jimmy. I don' t want to rush - but let me ask if I
Ican, do You have people coming in and out or have you over the pas'
few years since you've retired into this community center, . .
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lMR. COLBERT: Oh. Yes. You know people . especially if they are
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aleft alone . if a husband or a wife should die. they like to go out ;
and visit somebody and talk iust something to break the monotony
and that' s what this has been for the past thirty five years , iust4
people coming - a lot of people would come for a loaf of bread in
the morning and say they want a quart of milk but they would come
back in the afternoon to get that because they want to get away from
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Ithe house,
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'MR. PFAFF: This .was one of the attractions for me was the fact thot
aft-er the store closed Jimmy took out the cooler and, as it is set ;
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up now, is basically book shelf space and also flat fileage space I
� forall of these various magazines which is a natural you know, its
falls right into place. There are about seventy six different com-1
partments that I can stuff stuff into.
(MR. GASTEIGER: Mr. Colbert, did your activity draw motor traffic
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at all?
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iMR. COLBERT: Very, very rarely, because people within two or threei
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blocks of the store and people would stop and drop off magazines a0d
books - it -- I would say not over a dozen cars a day.
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, MR. SULLIVAN: Bicycles. . .
ii' MR. COLBERT: Bicycles - and the older people - they like to get
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gout and walk, especially if they know they can go into someplace
;sand sit down and rest and catch up on their errands - you sort of
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j walk back home.
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IIMR. SULLIVAN: Jimmy, have you had any comments from neighbors since
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the notices in this case went out?
MR. COLBERT: Yes, I 've had telephone calls - all - a lot of the
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neighbors have told me they are so happy that there is going to be
, something there that they can enjoy and subscribe to and feel a pact
of. They like the idea of those motion pictures and slides and the
history and seminars because there is no charge and they can come
in and go out and there ' s no binding sheet and the kids like it toc-
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there any other questions from members of
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the Board?
DR. GREENBERG : Do you plan to advertise it extensively?
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MR. PFAFF Advertising will be pretty much by mail . In other
words, I have developed this clientele of people calling up and I ' �l
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} say okay now R I'll let the travel agents do most of my advertising
for me because you see fill be working very closely with them as they
set up something and ask me to do it, then I 'll let them say
( alright stop down or here is a showing, come down, but not myself J,
II don't anticipate much of an advertising budget, outside of stamps,
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telephone, yes
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MR. SULLIVAN: I should indicate in terms of parking , in all candorj,
there is no off-street parking. Is there room in the garage,
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Jimmy, now, or not?
IJMR,I
COLBERT: Oh yes , there is room in the garage for one car,
MR, SULLIVAN: Alright, but there is no off-street parking for patrons
or clients . The house covers pretty much the whole lot and when I `
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say the whole lot I mean the whole lot very close to the property;
; line, but that 's the way it 's been for years and years and years and
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that' s the way it, I can personally attest, that't the way it 's been
since I 've been a child and there have been no substantial changes
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to the building in . . . Curtis doesn' t plan any substantial changes
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Questions? Thank you. Is there anyone else her
! tonight who would like to be heard on this case? Seeing none then
we will move on to the last one.
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BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS
I' CITY OF ITHACA
JULY 11, 1977
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EXECUTIVE SESSION I
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APPEAL NO. 1164 f
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: I will move that the special permit to I
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permit the applicant to carry on the
business of Travel Consultant, but not
Travel Agent', as a home occupation in
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! the property at 527 N. Aurora Street. �
I�MR. KASPRZAK: I second the motion.
FINDING OF FACT: 1. There were no residents of the
neighborhood present objecting to the
proposed use and all the testimony
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presented by the applicant and the
I former owner suggested that the proposed
home occupation would not have a serious
�+ adverse impact on the neighborhood.
iVOTE: Yes .6 ; No 0
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Special Permit Granted. j
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BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS
CITY OF ITHACA
JULY 11 , 1977
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JMr. Hoard announced the last case to be heard:
11APPEAL No. 1165 : Appeal of John C. & Mary E. Gutenberger forj
kj a use variance of Section 30. 25 , Column 2Ii
to permit occupation of the premises at
�( 212 Delaware Avenue, a two-family dwelling,
by up to nine (9) unrelated persons . The
property is located in an R-lb use district '
a maximum of four (4) unrelated persons are
permitted in a two-family dwelling in an i
R-lb use district under Section 30. 25.
IMr. Gutenberger is here to present his case.
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JOHN GUTENBERGER: My name is John Gutenberger, 212 Delaware Avenu
I was advised by a few people that something of this serious a i
nature, which it is very serious to me, which I will explain to
you in a few minutes, that I should have an attorney for this typ of
thing. I have two problems, one if an attorney was speaking for mi
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I 'd probably be jumping up and down every thirty seconds , so I
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Ithought to save me jumping and you watching, I 'd represent myself.
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The second and more important, has been mentioned a few times to-
night of the recent zoning regulations which have been passed by
Common Council. I want to make you very aware of the fact, if you
are not aware of the fact, that I am a member of that Council which
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passed these recent regulations . I am now in conflict unfortunately,
with one of those regulations and T refer specifically. . .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: You aren' t in conflict right at the moment, you. .
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� MR. GUTENBERGER: I will be, or I cannot sell my house under the
present conditions . I am asking for a variance to allow me to sell
my house, which I consider almost a break even for me. And I do
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have pictures which will explain to you some of the problems I am
in and two of the reasons which I did not speak out before when I,
this was before Council. My primary - my main problem is that when
the code speaks of a two-family unit, I think my house is a little ;
more unique in that it is not two-family it is almost, in fact,
in my concern, it is a double house and I will explain to you why'ir.
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The problem that I have is that my house is large - it is a two-
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j� family house with separate entrances, separate heating systems,
separate plumbing, separate water, in effect it is two houses put
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together, each side a mirror image of the other side. One side is !
I! exactly the same as the other with the exception of remodeling whi�h
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III have done on my side. When I apply the amount of space to the
ordinance, some of the things do not quite fit hence my problem.
Reading down through the use on Section 30 . 25, R-1 . . .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: I don' t want to interrupt the flow but perhaps
you could explain how you have used the two sides . You have occup ed
one as a family, you have rented out the other? f
MR. GUTENBERGER: Yes . I was going to go into the history after-
ji wards, but fine. The property I have owned for eleven years . I
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have raised four children myself and my wife have raised four
children on our side. The previous owner raised four children on
their side of the house, which we now currently occupy. The tenant
on the other side has been there for approximately thirty years an
j' has raised five children. So, roughly for the last thirty years
I at any given time on this particular piece of property, there has
been thirteen people, adult and child, very comfortably raised.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: But family occupancy on both sides going back
that period?
MR. GUTENBERGER: Yes , Family. The side which we now reside on I
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have added - converted the attic into a bedroom for one of our
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children the basement on our side I have converted into a playroom
�1 which is two-thirds the size of one-half of the house, Were we to
stay in the house that basement would then become a bedroom for onj
I� of our children. We now have two of our younger children in one
bedroom. When those - the youngest girls get a little older, one
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( would probably move down into the basement which we consider now a !
playroom.
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ICHAIRMAN MARTIN: And how is the property zoned prior to the recent
amendment?
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�IMR. GUTENBERGER: I believe it 's been R-1 in the past, Ilm not sur .
�ICHAIRMAN MARTIN: So that the only change in the new zoning, is in , a
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sense, more lenient than the old in respect to that property.
MR. GUTENBERGER: I don' t think it helps meat all. I ' ll show you;
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where the property line goes .
it CHAIRMAN MARTIN: It is stricter in a sense that there is now a
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ii tighter definition of "family. "
MR. GUTENBERGER: True.
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sCHAIRMAN MARTIN: Tighter occupancy.
+( MR. GUTENBERGER:- Right.
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright.
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MR. GUTENBERGER: As I read down through the use, perhaps maybe I '
jshould show you the pictures , at least of my house, I don' t know
how clearly you can see them it might give you an idea of the
problem I 've got. I took pictures of all the adjoining pieces of
property which I will refer to a little later. I don't know if yoti
can see this. The middle picture here is my house. On entrance
here one entrance here (pointing) . As you can see it ' s a very
large house. The back of my house , which is four stories tall , iso
(I this picture. This is my back yard which I will be referring to i4
a little while. That ' s the back of the house, four stories .
MR. GASTEIGER: Now is one-half of that backyard assigned to the
tenant?
!i MR. GUTENBERGER: No.
'! MR. GASTEIGER: You use the whole back yard?
I MR. GUTTENBERGER: We both do.
{� MR. GASTEIGER: So this is not a duplex separation?
11MR. GUTENBERGER: No separation in the back yard. It ' s one piece
!,,! of property one house.
IMR. GASTEIGER: It ' s a duplex otherwise? Maybe that 's not the
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Iformal definition.
! CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Terminology of that sort varies from area to ares..
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EMR. GUTENBERGER: I think you' ll see my - I 've got the same probleii
11 as you do - as we go through the definitions . Keeping in mind on$
' house completely divided down the middle, I might mention that they
four floors have - are all separated by fire retardant materials,
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fit ' s completely separated as I said, the heating all separate,
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' plumbing all separate, all utilities separate. As we read down
; through the permitted uses , we find under R-1 , 2. a. i. "If one unit
E is occupied by a single individual, the other unit may be occupiedil
4Iby no more than three persons if unrelated. " Now I take that to
!( mean one side could be three people or a family. For me to sell
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jthe house under that particular definition would mean that if a
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i; single individual bought the house and lived in it, he, himself, o
! she, hereself, would have to live on one side, which now has four
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bedrooms and could only use one , so there would be three bedrooms
unused. . .
IICHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, all of this stuff we are in in 2a applies
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to owner-occupancy you couldn't fill up the thing with a mess of
, unrelated people.
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IMR. GUTENBERGER: Right.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright - so that this all says with owner-occupancy
you may do a little bit more than you couldn' t otherwise, right?
jIMR. GUTENBERGER: My point is that for myself, trying to sell the
house if I sell it, if one of the people who would like to buy the
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house is a single individual who must live on one side, he would be
!diving on a side of a house with four bedrooms only they could only
occupy one.
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!i CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Right.
!MR. GUTENBERGER: Which to me is a waste of three bedrooms .
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HCHAIRMAN MARTIN: Right. So morelikely a family would be interested
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I1in buying it.
IIMR. GUTENBERGER: That' s what I mean right. Hopefully, you might;
,notice that we are a family and we are moving out of the area but
we' ll get into that too. Dropping down one more ii . "if one unit
is occupied solely by a family," not I am assuming that if I could'
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l� find someone who was a family, who wanted to live in one-half -
ii "the other may be occupied by no more than two persons , if unrelatejd. "
;Now I 've expanded my market a little bit, I 've hopefully have found!
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iisomeone who would like to buy the property and live in one side. It
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'Inow means that they must fill up the other side with another family'
�! or no more than two unrelated people. I have found it very diffi
; cult, in fact, so far I have found it impossible, to find someone
'! who would have a family in one side and a family on the other. If '
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I� they rent that to any one else other than a family - it is two un
related, again you have four bedrooms and only people two eo le allowed
l� to occupy the four bedrooms . Again it cuts the purchase price con-
' siderably. We drop down to b, "If non-owner occupied, one unit
j� may be no larger than 50% of the floor area of the other unit. " MY
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house is a mirror image. One side is exactly the same as the othe�,
so if someone bought my house and did not live in that house, one-
half of one-half of the house would have to be boarded up and not
used, since one-half can be only 50% of the other half. Creates
some more problems for me to try to sell the house.
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: While we are in the ordinance, can I ask that we
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look forward to R-2 or, if you were zoned R- 2 , where two-family
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dwellings are permitted uses, without regard to owner occupancy
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each unit may be occupied by an individual or a family plus not
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more than two unrelated occupants per unit. Is that the dimensions,,
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of the relief you are asking or are you asking for a variance that !
would permit even higher density than an R-2 would permit at this
property?
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MR. GUTENBERGER: Maybe, I don' t know, I can read this - this is toe
letter which I sent to abl the property owners. By the way, within
the 200' requirement there was 31 property owners, which I think
gives you an idea of the density that we are talking about up therel.
I tried to clarify it as much as I could in my own mind and this is`
�iwhat I told the neighbors that I was requesting. Now, I don' t know,
�1whether this helps to answer your question or not. I was requesting
�la variance which would be all inclusive, which would state as follows :
"If owner occupied, each side may be occupied by a family" which, I!
,, think, if we read that correctly, it is permissible now. Or one
Iside may be occupied by a family and the other side may be occupied]
! by no more than five (5) unrelated persons . Now that allows for a !
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lifamily to live on one side and a person, if they should rent my
side with five bedrooms in it, to put one person in each bedroom.
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i; That' s why I picked the number five. If non-owner occupied the
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same two provisions would apply or both sides may be occupied by a !
ltotal of no more than nine unrelated people, I pick nine for the
; five bedrooms on one side and four on the other.
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j CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay, so you are asking for more than rezoning I
that property R- 2 would accomplish. In fact, if that property wer
jzoned R-2 , two-family dwelling could be occupied by no more than
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three unrelateds on each side or a total of six, as I read the ne*
ordinance, that you all adopted.
I MR. GUTENBERGER: I did not refer my specific case to anything oth(br
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�ithan my particular instance. . .
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' CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay, I 'm trying to get the dimensions of what yo4
are asking for and you are asking for more than even R-2 would allow.
You are asking for something that takes us into the ballpark of R-3.
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MR. GUTENBERGER: Well, when I show you the property line of R-3,
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maybe that . . . that might be . . . I have made no correspondence . . . ';
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`II understand the question but I have not made any connection with
that at all .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay. . ,
Ii MR. GUTENBERGER: To go on further with item b, after I now have td
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Iclose up half of one-half of my house , it also says "and each unitl
(Imay be occupied by no more than two persons, if unrelated" so agai4,
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jif I should sell it to someone who does not want to live in the
house, I again have a nine bedroom home which, if the people are
unrelated, it would be two and two, so I could have four people who
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can reside in nine bedrooms. And again I think you can see what its
does economically to my asking price.
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MR. GASTEIGER: Excuse me, may I ask what you are counting as bed-
rooms in the part that you occupy? Is the attic room being counted
as a bedroom?
�IMR. GUTENBERGER: On my side, yes .
jMR. GASTEIGER: Is the gam room in the basement being counted as a
bedroom?
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; MR. GUTENBERGER: For my purposes , yes.
11MR. GASTEIGER: That' s part of your five?
s MR. GUTENBERGER: Yes .
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I�IMR. GASTEIGER: Okay, thank you,
MR. GUTENBERGER: I have had the - the inspectors have gone up and !
looked at it and there is work that would have to be done if some4e
( purchased that property and converted those into living spaces oter
than family orientated or family rented. There are changes which
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' have to would have to be made. Window height, fire door with a
closure . . . but that would be the buyer' s responsibility to make
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those changes to make it conform to the building code and the housing
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1code. I am concerned, and the reason that I - I have mentioned a
number thirteen before - the thirteen people who have lived here j
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for these thirty years.. I did not feel that thirteen was a number .
that was reasonable that I could justify, that I would even reauesi.
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I felt that I had to have some means ofmaking an honest evaluation
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of how many people comfortably could live within this large dwelliAg.
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The reason nine came between - what I consider the nine sleeping
areas and one person per area. That ' s where I came up with the j
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number nine. As I have mentioned, this house is and has been a
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family home, it's been very well taken care of, the previous ownerl,
took excellent care of it, I have also. I 've put a considerable
! amount of money into it, thinking that in the future there would b64
money well spent, that I would at least get my money out of it, and
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it appears now that I may not. As I mentioned, there were thirtyone
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properties to be notified within the 200 ' area. Of those, only seen
are owner-occupied. Of the thirty one pieces of property only three
are not income.
iCHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright, and most of those - help us - one of th4
things is , that the boundary between R-1b and R-3 is your back yar .
lIMR. GUTENBERGER: Is my back yard.
{ CHAIRMAN MARTIN: So that many of those are Linden Street property!
I� right.
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IMR. GUTENBERGER: Linden Avenue.
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;j CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Linden Avenue property. Tell us about Delaware, ;
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I mean there was a lot of fine tuning that apparently went on in
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the drawing of these revised zones with many more possibilities.
Tell us about Delaware . . .
MR. GUTENBERGER: Okay. Again, I don't know whether you can all -
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iI ' ll leave this with you. I 'm not a professional photographer as
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I� you can tell. Again, Delaware AVenue - if you stood across the j
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street from my house you would see these pictures (.pointing) , Thef
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i immediate - as you are looking at my house the immediate left -
to my knowledge there are seven apartments in this building close
as I can tell - three or four people per apartment. This car is
l� going to this driveway, is the exact same driveway where my car is '
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parked in this particular picture. So you can see how close -
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!'! these two houses are so close together.
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( MR. GASTEIGER: Are they double width driveways or single?
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i MR. GUTENBERGER: He has absolutely no parking, no driveway. Thi$
is my driveway which goes the full length of the house , goes into
double car garage, the bottom with the pad in front, which does not
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show in the picture . So you aretalking about Delaware Avenue. My '
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immediate neighbor to my left , looking at the house, at least seve
apartments that I know of, according to the mail man there is seven
iwith three or four in each apartment. Immediately to my right,
jlooking up the street is what used to be a single family dwelling, ;
! which is now non-owner occupied. I am not sure how many people life
jlin there. Further up the street are all completely, as you can tell,
1by the number of windows and the size of the building, all strictl
apartments. These are all non-owner occupied.
jICHAIRMAN MARTIN: Well then it shouldn' t have been zoned R-1, is
that what you are telling us? That ' s your business, not ours, of
course.
IfMR. GUTENBERGER: You've got to remember my business - when I was
! two things happened. First of all, we had not found a house and w'
11were not looking that seriously when we passed the zoning. We have
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jjnow found a house, we have put a purchase offer in and we are closing
the 15th of this month. Now I 'm but that 's my personal problem.
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it CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Right.
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MR. GUTENBERGER: Had - let me explain one, I ' ll get right back to ;
ii it - I 've drawn a dotted line, which, according to the map as , clea
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I as I can tell is the current R-3, R-1 boundary, which goes right
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ii down here. According to the map I can' t tell if its the house im-
mediately next to me or the one up but I 'm within at least two i
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houses of that boundary.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: There is a lot of that kind of fine tuning that
i° went on up in that area. !
MR. GUTENBERGER: Yes . This picture shows a white picket fence
which is my back yard, which is very small that white picket fenle
in my back yard, is the dividing line between R-1 and R-3 and I
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took a picture of where I took the picture from so you could get
some kind of reference. So what it amounts to on that map - I 'm
right about in the corner between R-1 and R-3 the back yard is t�e
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line and within probably one to maybe two houses up further is the
i line also. Further above me and further below me there are R-21s j
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put in as buffer zone. I do not have a buffer zone. So my proble�
on Council, to get very personal for a minute, is , when do I say
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"Hey, my house is going to have problems" and I , quite honestly
! felt that during the passage of a law was not the time for me to s�y
�I that a line should be drawn around and jog. That' s why you people :
arehere is to make determinations of this type.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: We don' t draw lines, no. That' s not the deter
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mination of the Board.
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MR, GUTENBERGER: You don't - you make the determination of hardshp
which are vital points.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: No, I'm being quite serious , we have to find if
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there is some peculiar situation of this property not shared by 4e
others in the district and what you are telling us , I think in pact,
�! is that the district line should be in , a different place, and i
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` MR. GUTENBERGER: I personally think that, unfortunately, it doesnit
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; help my situation as far as whom I could sell it to.
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jIMR. KASFRZAK: Joh, does the property go under one number, 212?
! MR. GUTENBERGER: 212-212,-, j
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ii MR. KASPRZAK: Did you ever consider a subdivision as the answer
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111 to your question?
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MR. GUTENBERGER: I don' t think
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: That won't help the occupancy problem, then he i$
!' selling to two families who . . .
j MR. KASPRZAK: It might - I don' t know how much property you have '
�! MR. GUTENBERGER: The lot size is 57' x 110 ' I believe, roughly.
MR. KASPRZAK: Two whole partial lots.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: But what I am saying is that it is still going t�
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be R-1 and the kinds of . . .
MR, KASPRZAK: It really doesn't matter ifit would help him to sel
it . . .
MR. GUTENBERGER: Okay, the original question was we know about
Linden Avenue, we know that' s R-3, the original question was Delaw re
Avenue, Okay, I 've explained to you wht's on my right and what ' s §n
my left, looking at the house. These three pictures below are as
close as I could get to standing on my front porch to show you
what you would see on my front porch, Because of the trees and so �
on and so forth I had to go up the street and down the street a li tl(
bit but you will notice that these same cars appear in most of the e
same pictures, Immediately up the street from me is the old Cosmol
Club, also referred to as the Greek church, which is now 1000 multi
tiple and I have no idea as how many apartments Bill Lower has in
that piece of property. You can tell from the pictures it 's huge.
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That ' s another one of my residents or my neighbors. Immediately
acorss the street the middle picture- is a picture facing my
house, because of configuration of the land this is on a point be- I
� tween Bryant and Delaware this is a double house so what you see ,
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� is one side of the house faces Delaware, the other part of the hou4e
faces Bryant and that 's all apartments , not owner occupied, of cou ;
those at the old Cosmo Club/Greek Church is not owner occupied, T�
l!ithe right as you are looking off my porch is the old Stevens house '
iwhich. I understand was sold within _
the last month strictly apart
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Iiments now or will soon be, non-owner occupied, in fact today thel
�ibuzz saws and every thing else was going on and if you look closel
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iithe doors are wide open, an overstuffed chair was thrown out on th4
j? lawn, tipped over here they are renovating it it ' s going to bei
;fall apartments, non-owner occupied - if your question was what are !
! my neighbors like?
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([ CHAIRMAN MARTIN: That ' s going to be R-1, that ' s in R-1 too that !
all of that is going on?
�IMR. GUTENBERGER: I assume so. Well I know it' s in R-1 , yes .
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay and how can that happen?
MR. GUTENBERGER: Perhaps the Building Commissioner could speak f
more to that - grandfather clauses and stuff - I don't know if j
! that ' s grandfathered or how that works. Most of these houses, if
not all, have always been apartments .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright but you are talking about one that is ,
getting more apartments right? It 's in R-1.
MR. GUTENBERGER: I didn't say. It was owner occupied. I under- I
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stand now that it will not be owner occupied.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay.
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MR. GUTENBERGER: Okay? Does that answer your question on what' s
around me?
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Yes .
l MR. GUTENBERGER: Our primary concern is hopefully the pictures
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will indicate they are very large homes, they are all multiple
dwellings , there are no families and one of the reasons that we
would like to move is to find an area which is more conducive for
our children. I have four young children ages three through twelvd.
As I say, we have found a house, we have put a purchase offer in,
it is going to close in two weeks and I was I can' t use the wordll
assured but when this question first came up I did ask a few
people and they thought that due to the area, etc, that the house
could probably be grandfathered, since it always had been a large
Thome and I find out now it will not be grandfathered, that I do have
Ila problem selling the house. I have mentioned that the house has
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four floors on each side, it is separated by fire walls , it has all!I
,; its own utilities. I did go to the Planning Board and we had a
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unanimous recommendation, I believe from the Planning Board. As
H regards to the intent which I think is really the important issue
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here the intent of the zoning law is to maintain or preserve
lithe character of the neighborhood. And I feel honestly, in my own
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mind, that I am not asking anything which would change, in fact,
lithe character of the neighborhood. In fact, if anything, it would
Iput less people in the house than are currently residing there.
{� But I am surrounded by multiple dwellings, surrounded by apartment ,
surrounded by lack of apartments or parking spaces, traffic, not e
commercial - there' s a parking lot right behind me and I am faced
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now in a catch 22 position of having a large, four floor- four
story, two family home which I cannot sell at any reasonable pricey
Ito anyone who can make useof the rooms in that house, I am concer�ed
abou t the neighborhood, I had four calls five calls since my I
letter went out to the property owners. I think every one was fro
the few owner occupied residents in the area who said they support�d
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Ime 100% and asked if they could come down and speak in my behalf I
? tonight , I said no because I knew it was going to be a long meeti4,
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land I knew T was last on the agenda and I did not think it was
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fair to them to come down and sit until this late hour, just to hell
Mme out of my situation. I did, however, ask them to stay close toj
4} the phone in case I really needed them. But the neighborhood is nqt
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jgoing to be changed, I think it is in the spirit of it the neigh-1
lbors certainly are supportive of me and I guess all I 'm asking is
;Ito allow me to put the house to some type of use and not to see it 11
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Igo to waste and, hopefully, which I stated in my letter, which I
did not give you a copy of, I don't think, my first opetion would
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be to sell it to someone who would owner occupy it because I am j
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concerned about the neighborhood. My second option, of course, woulld
be to sell it to someone who is non-owner occupied and I would be
!selective on whome those persons would be. I have had some interest
ylin owner occupied if this particular variance is granted, So
�ICHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay, well let me explain the tenor of my q,uestio4
;that is to say, you spoke of your own reluctance as a member of
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1` Council, to direct attention to what you thought perhaps was an
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inappropriate drawing of the line. Those same concerns, I think,
sE cause me to feel unease at your coming here and asking us to grant]
a variance from the very recently inacted amendment. It makes it
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11 the more important that we have the grounds really solid here. Myr
J! unease grows as I look at this new map which has got all kinds of
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11 little squiggles and lines drawn here and there, down the middle j
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li of blocks, etc. so there will be lots of people on corners near j
Ihigher zones. There have been lots of people whose large houses 4
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have been subject , by virtue of this desire to protect residential)
neighborhoods to stricter zoning and it will make it harder for
�j someone in Fall Creek who has been up-zoned or in any of the other!
areas that have sought and been granted stricter zoning to sell
i properties because part of the market has been cut away by these now
provisions . So many of the things you say I can just imagine bein
i said by other people in here in the months ahead seeking to get
variances from the requirements that City Council thought would
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i enhance the residential character of many of the city' s neighbor-
hoods . They will be arguing that they have a large house and they
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could fill it with large families and that some of the rental occur
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pancies that they are talking about may indeed be smaller . Well,
that of course is always true and yet Council saw to it that when
you are talking about an R-1 that occupancy by unrelated people
would be quite strictly limited. They may say that they are awful y
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it close to high density R-3 residents . Indeed, they may be close, not
only to R-3 zones but to properties that have been grandfathered.
There are a lot of those properties throughout the city now. So, j
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it strikes me that we have got to be especially sure in this case
that there is a unique hardship, because we are talking about a
use variance, that is peculiar to your property, I mean, Itm givin
you the words of the ordinance, now, peculiar to your property and)
i� not shared by the properties in the neighborhood and the district
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I that we are talking about.
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ii MR. GUTENBERGER: I might mention, to my knowledge, in our area, I
li there is no other house which is divided down the middle which is
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'! 50- 50 house that I am aware of. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
11CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay. Now the second thing that concerns me and ;
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'kt was reflected in an earlier question, is the dimension of the
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relief that you are asking for. That is a special feature of the
house - it' s got these two quite distinct units , both of them are
large . If you were R-2 , which that suggests - I mean it ' s a two
i' family dwelling, it ' s built for two - if you were, in fact, zoned
� R-2, you would not be permitted as the kinds of densities that you ;
; are asking for, so that even if relief were granted, I wonder what;
your reaction would be to having a variance granted that would, in
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�jeffect, say that you would be permitted R-2 residential uses there„
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kwhich is you can read it as well as I, but as I read it, it would
permit no more than six unrelated people, total. I may be reading
it wrong.
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MR. GUTENBERGER: I 've got a two-family dwelling, each unit of whicih
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Imay be occupied by an individual or family plus not more than two
1=unrelated?
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Yes - per unit . So that that would permit a family
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1plus an unrelated, an individual plus two unrelated or family plus
Minot more than two unrelated or, if we are talking about
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(MR. GUTENBERGER: That doesn't change R-1 .
! CHAIRMAN MARTIN: three and three
SMR. GUTENBERGER: R-1 says the same. One family plus two.
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!CHAIRMAN MARTIN: But this permits it for a two-family dwelling.
IMR. GUTENBERGER: Two-family dwelling under R-1 one unit may be
ijoccupied by a family and no more than two unrelated on the other , . .
HR-2 says two-family dwelling . . .
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�ICHAIRMAN MARTIN: Two-family dwellings are permitted in R-1 only if
Eowner occupied and that is the difference that R-2 achieves.
!MR. GUTENBERGER: Well, R-1 says if not owner occupied . . . I
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Then its - if not then you've got to have that SO%
of the floor area which you don't qualify for.
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IMR. GUTENBERGER: I was correct when you said it does not allow for
Itwo family or . . .
,CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay, in the provisions that you were referring tp .
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ii MR. GUTENBERGER: You ask, how would I feel about, and I don' t see ;
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; the difference yet, I 'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Well, suppose we were to fasten on to the fact t4at
1your house is distinguished from those that are in the same distri4t
Iron Delaware. That 's two distinct units . It' s a two-family dwelli4g
land say, alright we will acknowledge that difference and grant you ;
Ila variance, the use variance we will grant will permit you the occ#-
pancy that would be permitted in an R-2 , rather than an R-1 zone ,
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�� which means that you don' t have to comply with that 50% thing since
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I it doesn' t apply, which means you can sell to somebody who will no�
owner-occupy who can rent out, according to the terms of R-2 , a twq-
' family dwelling,
MR. GUTENBERGER: But if it was family - if a family bought it , if
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it was owner-occupied. . .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: If it was owner-occupied then this doesn't give
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L I you a thing. I
!`IMR. GUTENBERGER: Right. If it were owner-occupied in R- 2 you don t
get any credit for that. Only in R-1 do you get credit for being ,f
owner-occupied. Well , as I say, my primary concern is to sell it
j; to someone who will owner-occupy it , so R- 2 would not help it - a
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owner-occupied person at all - they would still have - depending on
;' which side they use - they would have five or four bedrooms , which
could still only be used by two people.
I CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay, the key issue here, I suppose, is hardship;
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! It ' s a use variance. Can you tell us what efforts you have made t4
sell it for a use that would comply with the new zoning and what
success those efforts have made.
MR. GUTENBERGER: Okay. The efforts have been privately on my own ;
lbehalf through people who would owner-occupy it, people who would
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not owner-occupy it. No one will touch it, until they find out what
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type of use it can be put to. One, we have put it in the hands of !
la real estate person who is here tonight but I don' t want to speak !
�Ifor her, but I think that they have had the same problem, that no
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Ione will even consider, seriously, the house until they find out
whether it can be put to any use at all since it is such a large
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house. Bette, did I say that right?
BETTE BAGNARDI : Yes, that ' s true. We have people who were inter- ,
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;bested in the house. . .
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Would you come forward and identify yourself?
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BETTE BAGNARDI : My name is Bette Bagnardi and I am a saleswoman
, with Stage Realty and I have had several very reliable in-town
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1landlords who are very interested in purchasing the Gutenberger
11property as an investment property. But since we have no idea how:
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I; the property can be used we can't come any furthers
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Well, suppose you assume it could be used .only ai
it is zoned for that is to say, under the new stricter requirements
I of R-1. Would there be a market for it then?
BETTE BAGNARDI : With owner-occupied on side you mean?
' CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Yes . As it has been for the last so many years . ',,
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, BETTE BAGNARDI : You see we've had difficulty pursuing this because
H we didn' t know it' s very hard to bring people in and say this isl
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the possibility and we have had perhaps three people in there at
this point who would consider living on one side and renting the
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jother side out.
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H CHAIRMAN MARTIN: You see, what we in effect would have to find to
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� grant the variance is that it could not be sold to an owner-occupant
; renting out the other side to a family, What we would have to find.� that the property really cannot be used consistent cannot be sola
to be used consistent with the present zoning. What I want to knew
its whether there is anything in your experience attempting to sell ;
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1the house that would support that kind of finding? Or whether thea
°! possibility of some kind of variance and the greater density that
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; that would permit - you know, causes some people to be interested
11who clearly would not be interested if the zoning really applied.
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'IBETTE BAGNARDI; Well , I will say that it takes a very unique kindi
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Ilof family to live in a situation on Delaware AVenue. I 've been at '
the Gutenberger's house many times when I can' t find a place to park
j and they do have off-street parking for Mr. Sullivan, who is a
tenant, and for the Gutenberger cars , But there are adjacent propeIr-
ties that don' t provide parking so it could be very difficult to
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�j get a family actually interested in buying that property. I reall�
li feel that way. I
!! MR. GASTEIGER: With nine unrelated people, it makes it that much
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11worse, doesn' t it?
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BETTE BAGNARDI : But there are - the Gutenbergers have a drive that
extends the entire length of that property. There is a garage - a!
double garage in the back and I don't know how many cars they hav�
they do park cars in there in tandem situation.
j MR. GASTEIGER: But you haven' t been able to park in there?
(j BETTY BAGNARDI : Right. Oh, well I have had a big car.
� MR. GASTEIGER: May I ask how long you have handled the property?
BETTY BAGNARDI : Probably about a month and a half, maybe.
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IMR. GASTEIGER: And ,john, how long have you tried personally to sell
the property?
IMR. GUTENBERGER: About the same amount of time.
MR. GASTEIGER: For a total of three months?
MR. GUTENBERGER: If you add the two, yes - the same month and ones
half,
' MR. GASTEIGER: Oh, the same month and a half?
BETTE BAGNARDI : Yes, he is working against me.
MR. GUTENBERGER: I goofed. I like your reasoning but. . .
BETTE BAGNARDI: I do have people . . .
MR, GASTEIGER: The way you related it I thought that you had triea
first and . . .
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( BETTE BAGNARDI : Now John I have had - and John has had prospects ;
( looking at the house as renting both sides to students , It ' s an
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extremely well built house, its been very well maintained.
MR. GUTENBERGER: I don't - to answer the . . .
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( CHAIRMAN MARTIN: My property has ended up R-2 under the new zonini
too, and I am sure that, I mean, if I wanted to sell it I could £i*d
some people who could be attracted to filling it up with students
too but it ' s not permitted under the new R- 2 . It has - the new
ordinance has curtailed my market for selling my house but the
trade off for that is that I understood that Council was pursuadedf
that it - assured me and others who were up•zoned that our neighbots
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'; would not/be able to sellout to high in density student occupancy ]
too.
!! MR. GUTENBERGER: My point is that I have no neighbors to sell outjto
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„] high occupancy . . . because it is 100% high occupancy . . .
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111CHAIMAN MARTIN: Which means , I gather, that your that Delaware ;
11Avenue is inappropriately zoned.
!,,! MR. GUTENBERGER: Delaware AVenue is also a fairly long street, it 'Is
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1Eabout three blocks long the far end of it towards Mitchell is a
�� little different situation.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: The line dipsy doodles even on Delaware, doesn' t :
! it?
IMR. GUTENBERGER: Well , there 's a buffer an R-2 down further on.
One side, I believe is R-2 and one side is R-1 .
DR. GREENBERG: I have a home that has these same characters excepi,t
jI own one half of it. You know a buffer down the middle and every-!
; thing like that
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MR. GASTEIGER: Bette can you comment on that. Is this not a
splitable property?
BETTE BAGNARDI : It would be very hard to sell it - you mean to two
1, individual families?
MR. GUTENBERGER: I could probably get more for it if I sold it to .
two people but I don't know how you could do it legally.
MR. KASPRZAK: Subdivision.
MR. GUTENBERGER: I ' ll probably be back here for a subdivision.
; CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Not here.
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BETTE BAGNARDI: It 's very unique - it 's a very unique and differenit
j1kind of property.
,MR. HOARD: You'd end up with two super non-conforming lots and
they'd both be way below the R-lb.
IMR, VAN MARTER: I don't understand why the proportion would be any'
different, Tom.
IMR. HOARD: Well, if you subdivided it . . .
SMR. VAN MARTER: It ' s been described at 50 - 50. The proportion
( would be precise.
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SMR, KASPRZAK: It' s a 50 - 50 mirror situation so you have the samei
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ratio of in non-conforming as you do now - if you have it now,
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because . . .
j MR. HOARD: I 'm talking about with respect to frontage requirement$,
etc. of each one that would be .
MR. KASPRZAK: I realize what you are saying.
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MR. GASTEIGER: It still wouldn' t be physically different - it
; shouldn' t be . . .
MR. VAN MARTER: Density can't be.
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1MR. GUTENBERGER: To get - you are asking about perspective buyers -
depending on what happened, how much easier it would be for me to
sell it. Everyone that I talked to that , including myself, who al�o
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put pen to paper to see if there was any possible way where I coul4
keep this particular house and move into the new house and make
enough money to break even off it. Nine would about do it for me tut
� I just didn' t want the hassle of two homes, etc. That was break
eleven. But anyway, anyone who has looked at it who is interested io
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owner occupying, renting one-half, has said to me that they, whichl.
was the same figures that I arrived at, would need four or five
people on the other side to make it economically feasible to buy ii.
Now that could also mean one-family on the other side but talking
dollars for dollars , the family would have to pay the same amount as
four or five individuals would. I think a family would have a
harder time paying that number of dollars to make it economically
�Ifeasible than four or five unrelated people. So if your question
is, what could I do and still try to sell the property and get away
from the nine unrelated, I think there would be people interested
I� in buying it, if the variance read such that it would be owner
occupied on one-half and no more than four or five unrelated on the
other half, {
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1DR. GREENBERG: John, would a new tenant have to pay more than your,
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present tenant pays?
( MR. GUTENBERGER: Yes . 1
DR. GREENBERG : Why? You're losing money on it?
� MR. GUTENBERGER: It' s a personal situation and the tenant has beeiin
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there for thirty years, and he is or they are one of the reasons ;
If
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the house is in such good shape is the care they have taken. We
jhave an agreement where he helps me - yes I could make a lot more
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I1money if someone else was in there. I shouldn't say make money . .
j so, there I stand. I think the pictures more than anything else
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speak for . . . I
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CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Help me with this case. One of the big things
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that was done was to up-zone the Fall Creek area. Alright, the Fa 1
ii Creek area is now R-2 . I
! MR. GUTENBERGER: I 'm not going to argue that with you - my house
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11 is not in Fall Creek.
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' CHAIRMAN MARTIN: No. How do you distinguish the relief that you Ore
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asking us to grant from the relief that somebody who is trying to
! sell a large single family home in Fall Creek, seeking to - having !
some difficulty selling it to a family and seeking therefore to gef
la better price and expand the potential market by selling it to
I� someone who will rent it to nine unrelated people, making, I gathe
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jmany of the same points you do. I thought it was precisely to dea�
with that kind of phenomenon that the whole zoning exerise
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MR. GUTENBERGER: I would have to since a variance is for hards4p,
(� I would have to - instead of talking theory back and forth - look it
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the particular house that was going to ask for that variance in
jsFall Creek and see if, in fact, it was surrounded by four and fivei
and six story homes , non-owner occupied, no parking, completely su
rounded almost completely surrounded by R-3, a large club across ,
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the street which has been converted entirely into apartments , then ]
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� I could possibly argue with you as to the difference between that
house and my house. To theorize that a person, in Fall Creek, may ;
have a house which is not two family now, we are talking about a
, house split down the middle, built as such with two separate energy
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, producing units and waste receiving units, T would say I would hav
;Ito look at it in the same way, I 'm suggesting that I don't think
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there are too many homes in Fall Creek or on Delaware AVenue or in
�ithe third ward or any place that have my unique problems and that �s
�1why I am here, is because I do have a unique problem. There may b�
( people that would like to get more for their house- but maybe all ;
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lithe conditions don't apply. May be they have large lots around
them. I don' t. I 'm surrounded by apartments. s
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; CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Are there further questions from members of the
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H Board? _
'SMR. GUTENBERGER: I 'm just checking my notes to see if I said j
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j everything. . . 1
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�ICHAIRMAN MARTIN: To see whether there are questions in your pre-
i1sentation have covered everything.
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MR. GUTENBERGER: That' s about all I can say. My fate is in your
hands. Thank you very much for listening,
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Is there anyone else present this evening who wo�ld
As
like to speak on this case? Excuse me, I guess we have a belated
3l question. j
MR. GASTEIGER: Could you give us the names of the people who are
, owner-occupied in that area? The ones we could call in an emergen�y,
1who would support you?
jIMR. GUTENBERGER: Mr. & Mrs. Fox called in support ; Mr. $ Mrs .
Keily called in support, Mr, & Mrs . John Rudan called in support -
Joh I'm sorry, they are not owner-occupied. The other third owner
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' occupied there are only three: The Foxes , The Kielys who is the
third? That 's right the Longs, across the street. There are only ]
in
; three owner occupied with/the thirty one.. Rudan's called in
�Isupport but they are non-owner occupied. I ' ll leave the pictures
! there with you.
ICHATRMAN MARTIN: Thank you.
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, PING LET WANG: I would like to support his application,
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Alright.
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PING LEI WANG: My name is Ping Lei Wang, I own the next house of
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�Mr. Gutenberger. I don't remember exactly how long ago when the
lBoard was rezoning. At that time, I read from the newspaper - I
remember there was scheduled to zone that area as R-3. At that ti Ie
flit was R- 2 . I don' t know what happens _, then it turned around and ;
became R-1 . I mentioned this fact because also - Mr. Gutenberger
�lalso showed the pictures around that neighborhood. It 's already an
1R-3 zone atmosphere. So based on this fact if its - the original
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E schedule for R-2 established then there would be no problem for
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Mr. Gutenberger.
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Okay, are there questions? Thank you. Is there;
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anyone else who would like to be heard on this last case? Yes .
j ROBERT SULLIVAN: I 'm Robert Sullivan, I live at 212 Delaware
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!� Avenue I 'm Mr. Gutenber er' s tenant. I 've been there for - sinc
g
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j 1946. I raised my family there - we raised five children it 's I
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i� always been a neighborhood of families up until recent years and
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(l they people have moved for the reason that John wants to move .
i know the house - I probably knwo the house better than John. Johns
been a good landlord and the landlord previous to John. I think
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I didn' t plan to say anything but I think what I would like to
emphasize is that the neighborhood itself is not conducive to
families. If I was raising my family today there' s just my wife
and I - if I was raising my children today I couldn't stay in the !
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neighborhood. Student Housing all over - all around John, across ;
the street, behind him, both sides. I 've even thought of maybe put-
chasing the house myself but I certainly couldn' t be locked in wit
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f any type of zoning that you have now. I don't think I would rent
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it I don' t think I would purchase it to rent to a family. I don t
think I could find a family thatcould make use of that nice home.
So I'm just I 'm in support of John, if he can sell his house to
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� a family so that he can utilize the other side and rent to unrelat'd
1people other than two - I think that' s what the zoning reads now.
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It would be a shame, especially his side, to have all of that bed-
1, roo1
m area and not be able to use it.. That 's off the top of my heac -
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II didn't plan on speaking but . . .
CHAIRMAN MARTIN: Thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to
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be heard? Seeing none so that will conclude this part of the public
hearing. I ' ll have to ask that you all leave , We are now going
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, into executive session. If you wish to stay around, we will recon-1
(Nene in public session to announce the results
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BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS
CITY OF ITHACA
'i JULY 11, 1977
EXECUTIVE SESSION
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j APPEAL NO. 1165 :
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iCHAIRMAN MARTIN: I will move that the requested use variances
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be denied.
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I1MR. GASTEIGER: I second the motion.
FINDINGS OF FACT: 1 . In view of the fact that the property
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II in question has been occupied by two famili�s
for a substantial period of time and has,
throughout that period, been zoned R-1, we
are not persuaded by the testimony about
recent efforts to sell the property that its
cannot be used for occupancy that would
comply with the requirements of the R-lb
I� district. The property has only been on the
market for a month and one-half.
VOTE: YES 6 NO 0
USE VARIANCE DENTED.
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! I , Barbara Ruane, Do Certify that I took the minutes of the Board j
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of Zoning Appeals , City of Ithaca, in the matters of Appeals
. Numbered 1162 , 1163, 1164 and 1165 , on July 11 , 1977 at City Hall ,
( City of Ithaca, New York; that I have transcribed same, and the
iforegoing is a true copy of the transcript of the minutes of the
! meeting and the Executive Session of the Board of Zoning Appeals,
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�ICity of Ithaca, on the above date, and the whole thereof to the
I best of my ability. j
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1�i 3i
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j Barbara C. Ruane
�! Recording Secretary t
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! Sworn to before me this
day of � �J� 1977 .
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�IN ar Public j
JOSEPH A. RUNDLE
Notary Public, State of New York j
No. 55-4507134
i Qualified in Tompkins Count
j Term Expires March 30, 19q
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