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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMN-BZA-1979-08-06 f BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS �I COMMON COUNCIL CHAMBERS CITY OF ITHACA, NEW YORK II AUGUST 6 , 1979 TABLE OF CONTENTS MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS, ITHACA, NEW YORK - AUGUST 6 , 1979 Page APPEAL NO. 1267 Ann M. Stinard 2 907 N. Cayuga St. APPEAL NO. 1267 Executive Session 5 APPEAL NO. 1268 Bill & Maria Avramis 6 406-408-410 College Avenue APPEAL NO. 1268 Executive Session 21 APPEAL NO. 8-1-79 U-Haul Company of Central , NY 23 343 Elmira Road APPEAL NO. 8-1-79 Executive Session 29 i i APPEAL NO. 8-2- 79 Ithaca Plastics for K-Mart 30 744 South Meadow Street APPEAL NO. 8--2- 79 Executive Session 36 CERTIFICATION OF RECORDING SECRETARY 37 BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS COMMON COUNCIL CHAMBERS i CITY OF ITHACA, NEW YORK i' j AUGUST 6 , 1979 SECRETARY HOARD: I will call to order the August 6 , 1979 meeting of the Ithaca Board of Zoning Appeals . The reason why I am opening the meeting is that Mr. Peter Martin is no longer with us as the Chairman and the Board will have to elect a new chairman which is I the first order of business tonight. Present this evening are : Ms . Natalie DeCombray Mr. William Wilcox 1 Dr. Martin Greenberg Mr . Joseph Gainey, Jr. Mr. Thomas Hoard, Bldg. Comm & i Secy to the Board Mrs . Barbara Ruane, Recording Secy ABSENT: Mr. Alfred Aman, Jr. I want to advise all the appellants , in case I forget later, that there are only four members here now - that ' s a bare quorum and it takes four affirmative votes to get a variance and even with one member who is on the way, you would need to get four out of five so if you don' t want to play those odds you can ask for a post- I ponement of your case. Okay, the first order of business then would be election of an acting chairman to chair this meeting. Do I hear any nominations from the floor? DR. GREENBERG: I move that William Wilcox be selected as our temporary chairman. MS. DE COMBRAY: I ' ll second that motion. SECRETARY HOARD: We have a motion and a second that William Wilco be the acting chairman for this meeting. Do I hear any other nom- inations? (none) Nominations are closed. All of those in favor say Aye. VOTE: 4 Aye; 0 Nay; 2 Absent. SECRETARY HOARD: Mr . Wilcox. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay the meeting has already been calle to order. The Board operates under the provisions of the City Charter of the City of Ithaca and of the provisions of the Zoning Ordinances. The Board shall not be bound by strict rules of f ii i 2 - l� levidence in the conduct of this hearing but the determination shall The founded upon sufficient legal evidence to sustain the same . The Board requests that all participants identify themselves as to name hand address and confine the discussions to the pertinent facts of the case under consideration. Please avoid extraneous material which would have a delaying effect. I request that the Building Commissioner proceed with the hearing. ( SECRETARY HOARD: The first case Mr. Chairman is Appeal 1267 : Appeal of Ann M. Stinard for a Special Permit under Sections 30. 25 Column 3 and 30 . 26-C, to permit operation of an interviewing service as a home occupation at 907 N. Cayuga Street . The property is located in an R-2b (residential) use district, in which a special permit is required for a home occupation. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay, now generally we 'll have all those I people who want to speak in favor come up and give their names and address and make their remarks , and then we will have anybody who i flin opposition after that. So, anybody here who would like to speak I in favor of this appeal , please come forward. Please come up to he microphone and give your name and address . RS. STINARD: My name is Mrs. Ann M. Sti.nard and our home address is 907 N. Cayuga Street. As Mr. Hoard has also told me, previously hen I came here to the zoning office, he said it is necessary for e to make an appeal for a special permit for a home occupation and 11 have met the requirements by having it appear in the paper and Lso I sent out twenty-nine letters to neighbors within the require rea. Now, my home occupation will be Ithaca Interviewing Service or Market Research Surveys. These surveys can be done either in erson or by private phone and my proposal as starting in this usin.ess is that I will only have a private phone, a desk, and file n an alcove of an upper room in our home and then - for clients hat come to the home , I would have them just come into our living �,_oom but, for the most part , I would go to the business establish- ent to discuss the business transactions as to the type of question - naire they wanted, etc . within their business place. In case anyon 3 - I wonders what a market research survey is , it is a public opinion survey in which a respondent is asked questions and answers are I written on a questionnaire. It could be on a political issue or as to the opinion of brand names or any of the other specification3 , I such as media, opinions of newspapers or radio listening or any of whatever the client might want an opinion on. Often it is used by advertising agencies to determine their ads and commercials and how well they are doing and any of many qualifications that would fall under the market research survey opinion type and to start out, I might have two part time students who would probably work from their own home or else be out in the field working under my supervision if volume dictates that I need that. I can' t think I of anything else that I should add, but I ' ll be glad to answer any questions that anyone might have. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay, any questions from anybody? MS. DE COMBRAY: On the average, how many clients do you expect to have a day? MRS. STINARD : Well , I ' ll give you my background a little bit here . I 've been doing, since 1972 , I 've been doing, on a part time basis , interviewing for a national survey company located in New York, Philadelphia and Southern Springs , Maryland but this is the first that I 've done it on a local basis . And I feel that I would like to do this in order to help people in this area if they wish to have public opinion, etc. , so to get back to your question, it' s a little bit hard to determine but I doubt very much that I would generate much traffic at all because on the most part I would go t the person - the client' s office to discuss any business material . ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Anybody else? MR. GAINEY: Did you receive any responses from your neighbors? MRS. STINARD: Yes . I have a dog and I walk in the neighborhood a lot. And I had a lot of people from their front porches con- gratulate me and tell me that they were pleased and I only had one phone call and they didn' t understand what market research survey- ing is or what it would involve so I explained it and she was very happy with it too . - 4 - I ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay, any other questions? Thank you ver I �I much. Is there anyone else who would like to speak in favor of this request? Is there anyone who would like to speak in opposi- tion to this variance? Is there any other discussion? Okay, we will move on to the next case. MR. MORRIS ANGELL ARRIVED AT THE HEARING AT 7 : 50 P.M. I i i i 5 I j BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS CITY OF ITHACA, NEW YORK COMMON COUNCIL CHAMBERS AUGUST 6 , 1979 EXECUTIVE SESSION APPEAL NO. 1267 : l MR. GAINEY: I move that the Board approve the home I occupation permit requested in appeal No . 1267 . MS. DE COMBRAY: I second the motion. FINDINGS OF FACT: 1) No objections were raised from the twenty- nine neighbors who received notice of this requested permit. q 2) No traffic would be generated from this Home Occupation because most of the appel- lant' s work will be carried on outside of her home . I 3) This request apparently poses no undue ` hardship on the neighborhood. i 4) The Board felt that the proposed business 1 satisfied the Zoning Ordinance description of a home occupation VOTE: 5 Yes ; 0 No ; 1 Absent. Special permit for a Home Occupation granted. i 6 I! I BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS COMMON COUNCIL CHAMBERS CITY OF ITHACA, NEW YORK AUGUST 6, 1979 ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Let me continue with some of the general procedure here. After we have the public hearing we will close i the meeting to the public and go into executive session and have our discussion and the vote on the requests . If anyone would like to wait until that is over to find out what the results are , they j can wait outside until the executive session is over. Are there jany other questions from the public? Do you understand - since we I have a change of chairmen here temporarily? � SECRETARY HOARD: The next appeal is Appeal No. 1268 : Appeal of Bill & Maria Avramis for an area variance under Section 30 . 25 , Columns 4 and 15 (required rear yard) , or for an interpre - tation under Section 30 . 51 (restoration aft r damage of a non-conforming building) to per - mit (1) addition of a mezzanine floor in the proposed discotheque and (2) the addi- tion of a second story with three retail shops . The property is located at 406-408- 410 College Avenue in a B-2b (business) use I district , and is deficient in required rear yard set back. MR. GALBRATTH: My name is Dirk Galbraith, I 'm an attorney, I have a professional office at 308 N. Tioga Street , Ithaca, and I am her on behalf of the applicants , Bill and Marie Avramis . Before I mak any remarks I would like to show the members of the Board photo- graphs of the building in question and also a floor plan showing the proposed balcony or mezzanine . I MR. GAINEY: How can a building be built when there is no zoning. . . . ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: The question was - how can the building b built when there is no zoning? MR. GAINEY: Yes . SECRETARY HOARD: Okay. A building permit was issued for the re- construction of the fire damaged building. MR. GAINEY: As was? SECRETARY HOARD: As was basically, as was - to meet the existing, codes . MR. GAINEY: Does that meet the codes? I fi - 7 - l 'j SECRETARY HOARD: Building codes . li � MR. GAINEY: That whole lot was a two-story building before? i ( SECRETARY HOARD: No. SMR. GAINEY: That ' s what I thought. How does it meet existing - 1( what it was? SECRETARY HOARD: That' s why it' s here. That is why it is before fthe Board. MR. ANGELL: It' s already up. I' MR. GAINEY: I don' t like to play dumb but this happened to me i, across the street from my house, where a building was put up like i, this and I want to make sure the same thing doesn' t happen. li �JACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Well, they still have the rear yard re- quirement. MR. GAINEY: The building is already up it should have never 11been put up to start with. It doesn' t meet the zoning requirement ii i of the area. The building is too large. So how do you go and jus 1build a building? I j' SECRETARY HOARD: Okay, it' s a non-conforming structure built unde i Section 30 . 51 which allows him to build a non-conforming structure , damaged by fire in part or in whole . i MR. GAINEY: Doesn't that law state that you replace the same buil - i ming? This is not the same building. SECRETARY HOARD: You couldn' t replace the same building. MR. GAINEY: But couldn' t you put a one-story structure up? SECRETARY HOARD: If you replace the old building it wouldn' t meet y p g the fire codes of the city. i I MR. GAINEY: A one-story structure will not meet the fire codes of the city? j, SECRETARY HOARD: Well, one-story structure - it can be 28 feet i high. The representation to me was that that was not a floor. Bu now it is suddenly a floor and that is why it is back here . SMR. GAINEY: Were there no inspections done as these buildings are . . ? i jSECRETARY HOARD: Yes sir . MR. GAINEY: And a floor just appeared? SECRETARY HOARD: No - what it was represented as , was a grid or a I� - 8 - t i fly galley for the lights and so on and the equipment for a disco jsupport the equipment for a disco - a cat walk. MR. GAINEY: And now it is a finished structure? �j SECRETARY HOARD: And now it is suddenly a floor. I, ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Now it' s a variance question. j MR. GALBRAITH: This appeal comes to you in a rather confusing procedural posture and I ' d like to go back and explain a couple things that have gone on before. I think there are a couple membe s of the Board that weren' t here I think it was this past November when we initially made an application to the Board concerning this building. At that time the proposed use for the building would hae been a disco and a movie theater. Also at that time the zoning I ordinance was somewhat different than it is now in respect to park i ing and side yard requirements for his structure and as a result I this Board disapproved the variance application - that was in No- vember of last year. Following this Board' s action Mr. Avramis went to the Building Commissioner ' s office and applied for permis- sion to reconstruct the building under Section 30 . 51 as a fire damaged building and it is my understanding that that was granted essentially in two permits . The previous building which was there was the former Hill Drug Store and two other somewhat tumbled down i buildings. One of these buildings had a second floor on it - the other two did not. The aggregate height of the building was ap- proximately 28 feet, as I understand it. Mr. Avramis commenced construction under these building permits, which essentially gave him permission to reconstruct on that site and it is my understand- ing nderstanding that he presently has authorization to construct a - essentially a one-story building for use as a disco on the premises within the perimeter of the former buildings which is the perimeter of the existing building now. Am I correct on that? SECRETARY HOARD: That is correct . MR. GALBRAITH: Okay. What Mr. Avramis would like - at this point - 1 is permission from this Board to use the upper portion of this building as a second floor and put offices in there which would be a MR. GAINEY: Time out. I MR. GALBRAITH: Okay. 9 - I i, MR. GAINEY: They were given permission to do one thing and they I' have gone ahead and done something else. it 1 MR. GALBRAITH: No sir, they haven' t yet done anything else. MR. GAINEY: There is no floor in there? �I �! MR. GALBRAITH: The it is my understanding that the second floor is not in use for any type of use whatsoever and will not be used without the permission of this Board - it will just sit there - I I` other than perhaps to run electric wiring and lights down to the first floor. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Would you like to come forward as well Mr. Avramis? Are there any other questions? MR. GAINEY: Yes , I 've got a lot of questions on this . They were given permission originally - what was the original design of the building? What were you given permission to do? MR. AVRAMIS: For one floor. MR. GAINEY: One floor. MR. AVRAMIS: Yes . MR. GAINEY: And you've built two floors? 11MR. AVRAMIS: No sir, one floor. IMR. GAINEY: Is the second floor finished off? iMR. AVRAMIS : No sir. MR. GAINEY: There is no floor in the second floor? MR. AVRAMIS: No sir. MR. GAINEY: None whatsoever? MR. AVRAMIS: Nothing. IMR. GAINEY: Just steel beams running across it ;now? MR. AVRAMIS : That' s right. MR. GAINEY: You put the windows up there for decoration? MR. AVRAMIS: Yes . I MR. GALBRAITH: Could I point out something about that? Mr . Avramis is in the process of constructing a building up there. He obviously after talking with Mr. Hoard realized that he is going to need a variance in order to use that second floor. Mr. Hoard, I think, made that pretty clear in giving him the building permit that he did, in fact I think there was a notation according to Mr. Avramis , I a i j - 10 - jon the second building permit that the second floor couldn' t be used for anything without a variance and that ' s why we are here. I� I don' t believe this is a case where Mr. Avramis went ahead and di 11 anything without authorization. You simply can't build a building �I in two steps , however. You kind of have to build a whole building at once. Mr. Avramis has a rather large mortgage on this property - he was in a position where he had to do something to make the property economically productive or face a large financial loss . As it is he went ahead and constructed the building. I think, if anybody has looked at the photographs , will agree that the building I is a considerable improvement over what was there previously. I i hope you would look at this appeal from the perspective of this - is this property, actually, the sort of site that is suitable for a two-story building. I think it is on one side is Sheldon Court , which, I believe, is four stories - there is a somewhat shorter building to the immediate south and next to that there is another three-story building. All of the buildings across the street from jit are, I believe, either four or five stories . I would suggest , and II hope you will agree that in that location in Collegetown, economi- cally it just doesn' t make very much sense to build a one-story building because you can' t derive enough income from it to pay the carrying cost of the property. Mr. Avramis would like your per- msision to utilize the second floor of that building and make it economically productive. I ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay now, the - how is the situation of the fire egress? Was there a problem with Cornell , Bill , is that settled? I think there is a low wall there and possibly you couldn' t open the door because of cars , has that been cleared up? MR. AVRAMIS : Yes. MR. GALBRAITH: Cornell wrote a letter, a copy of which. went to Mr. Hoard, a copy - I 'm not sure whether it went to this Board or f not , but it went to the Planning Board and I think their position stated in that . . . . ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX, Yes we have that letter. . . SECRETARY HOARD: Yes. I i i ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay, are there any questions by the j Board? MS. DE COMBRAY: I have two questions . One - on the plan - this upstairs , is that proposed balcony planned or that must be the proposed balcony? Is that right? MR. AVRAMIS : Yes . MS. DE COMBRAY: And you want to rent out office - they wouldn' t be for your own use, they would be rented out for office space? II MR. AVRAMIS: Right - rented, yes . MR. GAINEY: Is this the way it is right now? j MR. AVRAMIS: That ' s a balcony, yes. MR. GALBRAITH: No , the balcony is not constructed yet - it says the proposed balcony. MR. GAINEY: All of this area is open? MR. AVRAMIS: Yes . DR. GREENBERG: And the stairway up to it is finished or is in the i process? No stairway? MR. AVRAMIS: No. MR. GALBRAITH; On the matter of the balcony, I don' t want to interrupt any questions , but we have also asked for an interpreta- tion on this . As I read the zoning ordinance, a balcony, or mez- zanine , I think they refer - I refer to those two things , I mean the same thing, which comprises less than one-third of the floor space of the floor below it - is not considered a story within the meaning of the ordinance. And I believe, in this case, at least my interpretation of the zoning ordinance is that a variance is no required to install a balcony within the disco itself. What we ar proposing is something similar to what' s already in use at the Ramada Inn. I guess in a disco operation such as this , a balcony is a fashionable thing to have. MR. GAINEY: That' s what you are proposing? MR. GALBRAITH: Yes . MR. ANGELL: This plan is not what is being proposed tonight, then MR. GALBRAITH: Yes . i MR. GAINEY: I thought you just told us you want to use the second I� I i 12 - i i floor for offices? MR. GALBRAITH: No, the second floor and the balcony are two dif- ferent things. The floor of the first floor where the disco is op r- ated is approximately 16 feet in height —floor to ceiling. What Mr. Avramis wants to do is install a balcony within that area. MR. GAINEY: Within the 16 feet? MR. GALBRAITH: Yes. Above that would be the second floor where the offices would be located. MR. GAINEY: What is going to be the height of that balcony? MR. AVRAMIS : 716". MR. GAINEY: 716"? I I MR. AVRAMIS: Yes . MR. GAINEY: How big an area do you want - is this coming before the Fire Commissioner and everything? 716"? SECRETARY HOARD: This plan has not , no. MS. DE COMBRAY: Has not what? SECRETARY HOARD: Has not gone before the Fire Chief. MS. DE COMBRAY: So , in fact there will be the ground floor, which will be a disco with a mezzanine/balcony for the disco and above that will be a floor of offices? MR. AVRAMIS : Yes . MS. DE COMBRAY: And that isn' t on the - this isn' t the office door Cpointing to plans) ? MR. GALBRAITH: No. MR. GAINEY: So it' s going to be 71611 from the floor to the bottom of the balcony? And it ' s going to be 816" from the balcony to the ceiling? And then you are proposing a second floor which will be another 12 feet? Right? MR. GALBRAITH: Yes . That is correct . Total height will be twent - eight feet. MR. GAINEY: How come that doesn' t show here? MR. GALBRAITH: There is no second floor plan - that merely depict the balcony on the first floor. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX; Any other questions? No other questions? MR. ANGELL : What is the legal height for a ceiling? j - 13 - �I ' SECRETARY HOARD: For occupied space? 8 feet. j MR. ANGELL : Yourplan is wrong for the balcony to begin with. I 'i MR. AVRAMIS: I don' t understand why . MR. ANGELL: Well , he says the legal height of the ceiling is 8 I feet. You said 716". MR. AVRAMIS: The book says 716", Mr . Hoard. SECRETARY HOARD: That is for residential . I' I MR. AVRAMIS: We will have 16 feet high, anyway. The floor is �! 16 feet high. ; MR. GAINEY: You have an overhang where you are going to have people, right? f� MR. AVRAMIS: Pardon me? MR. GAINEY: People are going to use this balcony? MR. AVRAMIS: Yes . ii ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: So a commercial building is supposed to have 8 feet? Well , the matter before us is the rear yard require- ! ment. How about this interpretation? 30.. 51 , is that within our ; i ` jurisdiction? ` SECRETARY HOARD: Yes . MR. GALBRAITH: Could I speak on that point? And this is one rea- son that this whole appeal was confusing, at least to me . As I i read 30. 51 , Mr. Avramis could construct without a variance - as ; j I understood it - a building along the original perimeter of the 1 building which has been fire damaged, which is what he did here . The back line of that building happened to be 2-1, feet from the bac `1 line of the property so was the original back line before the fire damaged building was removed. As I understand it, that' s permis- sible. As I further understand it from talking with Mr. Hoard, I or hearing his remarks at the Planning Board this afternoon, the ; problem that we got into was that although a second floor was per- mitted in this area, where you reconstructed a fire damaged buildi g, it was the interpretation - I guess of the Building Commissioner ' s office, that a variance was required because they believed that this was expanding the use and . . . ; MR. GAINEY: Well it is , you took up more square feet. You took down a building that was one-story, or two buildings, and two - 14 - i i stories in another building. Then you replaced the whole structur with a two-story building. Even though you say it' s only one-stor jbut you are asking for two. II MR. GALBRAITH: No , we concede his two-story, of which only one is useable right now - we would like to utilize the second story if w could. I felt, in doing this application, this was something that was possibly permissible, owing to the fact that it is in an area where the height requirement - or the maximum height is six storie i and up to 70 feet. And certainly the buildings next to this are a good deal taller than this one is , even as presently constructed. Now that was the reason that this application was styled in inter- I j pretation and in the alternative request for a variance. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Well , do you have any objections . . . . ? I SECRETARY HOARD: Let me comment on what has been said so far. Number one , to summarize what I see as the situation, there was a fire damaged building - there was a zoning ordinance that was bein modified which presumably would relax a lot of the requirements in that area. The appellant elected to he had a choice of waiting I to see what would happen with the rezoning and then build according to that or possibly ask for a variance if something didn' t fit with his plans , or he could use this section of the code and rebuild the damaged building that was a non-conforming structure. What we have here is a case where he took advantage of the right to rebuild a non-conforming structure under the old rules and now he is coming back and he is wanting to also use the relaxed new rules. Also , t get back to what Mr. Gainey was getting at earlier, back in Novem- ber of 178 this case came to the Board of Zoning Appeals in a much more elaborate plan that included a disco , stores and a movie theater and this Board turned it down. Obviously under the old I rules that was the proper thing to do. Later in November the Avramis ' s came to me and asked what could they do - could they rebuild the building? And I said yes , if - two things - if they comply with two things : one the rear fire exits were provided to meet present codes and two, the building was not enlarged. In other words , it conformed to the old non-conforming structure , so i 15 - !i to speak. That' s the way they elected to go and in January they were issued a permit to rebuild the roof. When they started re- building the roof they found that the exterior walls were in i ii terrible shape so they started - they got a permit to rebuild the exterior walls and Mr. Avramis signed a statement agreeing that th i' it second story required a variance. ;I �i MR. GAINEY: When was that? I� SECRETARY HOARD: That was in April . Then in - we got a complaint ii that they were putting a second story in on the building and one o the housing inspectors happened to go by and he saw trusses going in part way up within the building and so I drew up a stop order jiand the Building Inspector and I went up there and - this would { have stopped all the work until all the necessary permits , variances , { etc . were obtained. Mr . Avramis ' s foreman on the job , Mr. Biskup, i1 ii said that the second floor is only a drop ceiling for support and f {I the truss structure was necessary because there was going to be heavy Mair conditioning and sound equipment and lighting equipment up i lithere and, even though, at the time we were up there it was com- pletely decked over with plywood he said the deck was to be remove { to replace with cat walks . I, �IMR. GAINEY: Has the decking been removed? ,I { MR. AVRAMIS: Yes . MR. GAINEY: The plywood is all gone? MR. AVRAMIS : Yes . SECRETARY HOARD: So we did not stop the work at that time. Then the Avramises came in to me and talked about this balcony and I figured up the capacity of the building that was damaged - it had a capacity of approximately 133 persons - that was even giving i credit for an old second floor that the Building Department had, 1 j long before Icame here, had declared illegal . Figuring up the - i looking at their plans here not counting the stores but just counting the balcony and the first floor, the capacity came to I 233 or 234 people. So it was an increase by 100 people in capacity using the same building construction code guidelines . So that is when I informed them that they would definitely need a variance fo - 16 - t the balcony as well as for the second floor stores . So that is where we are now. There is a story up there that is not a story and 1 depending on which way you look at it and you have a set of plan I in front of you . MS. DE COMBRAY: Do you still intend to have the air conditioning and the lights? 1 MR. AVRAMIS: Yes . MS. DE COMBRAY: And - but that will just be . . . �l MR. AVRAMIS: There will be the air conditioning and the lights - i they will be in the middle of the floor - in the balcony - which w 11 f Abe one-third around the walls - about 7 feet from the wall . MR. GALBRAITH: I think the air conditioning will probably be sus- pended, is it not, from the ceiling - it hangs downward from those trusses . . . i MR. AVRAMIS: Right, right. MR. GALBRAITH: Rather than sitting on top . . . 1 ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Is there a question? Okay, more drscussi n. j DR. GREENBERG: Would you want to give a more limited - accept a ! more limited variance and discuss this mezzanine more thoroughly Il and why you think that that should be granted - forgetting, for th moment, about the second floor and office space? I think I would I like to entertain that as a consideration, at least first - as a separate complete entity and tell us why you feel that this occu- pancy which is possible, should be - is within a reasonable range in your estimation. MR. AVRAMIS: Well if we put a dance floor and have two bars and a - lot of space you see cash registers and things like that - you see - � they take a lot of space. There will not be enough space for sit- ting capacity, that' s why we are asking to have the balcony. And i ! balconies (unintelligible) to have insides lights and mirrors on the walls and match altogether. And when I start build- ing, I always thought I could have a balcony without having a permit because I thought30o - I would be allowed to have . DR. GREENBERG: I don' t know the law that well but I can see where the question of the amount of occupants , as Mr. Hoard points out, ii L'I , ' - 17 - is relevant to the rebuilding of existing facilities. I wasn' t aware of that and I don' t know whether Mr . AVramis or his attorney i was aware of this problem. i I� MR. GALBRAITH: If I could address that point , I think that occu- r i pancy of this enterprise, like anything else can be regulated and Certificate of Occupancy - obviously if he wants to open he is going fto have to have a permit. The fire commissioner is going to issue i a maximum occupancy permit, is he not? Which would be posted. SECRETARY HOARD: Let me respond to that. The Fire Commissioner I L will only - the occupancy permit he issues will be based on square �i footage and that ' s where I came up with my figures . You take the �i gross square footage of the building floors , divide by 15 and that ' s iI the number of people that go in there and putting a sign out in front and saying that only 33 people can occupy a much larger struc- ture just doesn' t work unless you post firemen or policemen out in front of the building and that just doesn' t make sense from the ' cost/benefit standpoint. Another thing I ' d like to clear up, that definition of a story that keeps bouncing around here is out of the State Building Construction Code and not out of the Zoning Or- dinance. MR. GALBRAITH: I 'm referring to Section 3. 83 of the Building Code , I 'm sorry - the Zoning Ordinance. SECRETARY HOARD: For the definition of a story? MR. GALBRAITH: Yes. Do you have a copy of it here, I ' ll be gla to show it to you. MS. DE COMBRAY: What number did you say? MR. GALBRAITH: I believe it ' s Section 3. 83 in the definitions . SECRETARY HOARD: Okay, but it isn' t a story I 'm arguing about , it' s gross square footage. Enlargement of a non-conforming structure . MR. GALBRAITH: Okay, well then the question is , I guess for in- terpretation - whether enlargement of a non-conforming structure means doing something to the interior of the structure which doesn' t make it physically any larger on the outside and it enabl s perhaps a more intensive use. Is that enlargement? ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: I' d say it was . I � - 18 - i i !� MR. GAINEY: This building here? Sure . ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: It' s the amount of traffic generated and safety and everything that would have to do with zoning laws . It seems like a considerable change in the plans . MR. GAINEY: Well , you' ve gone ahead and built a building that you didn' t have permission to build. MR. GALBRAITH: Well , with all respect I think that ' s incorrect . MR. ANGELL : How many doorways have you got in this plan, in the front? MR. AVRAMIS: Two. MR. GAINEY: Where? MR. ANGELL : Where? I MR. AVRAMIS: (pointing the blueprint) There is one here and one here. MR. ANGELL : There is no door there. MR. AVRAMIS: There is none now because I cannot have a permit for upstairs . MR. ANGELL: But you've got a door already here. MR. AVRAMIS: No. We don' t use that. MR. ANGELL: But it 's built. Because you have built that for the second floor. You've already done it . MR. AVRAMIS : No, no. I 've built it in case I have balconies and two stores . Of course when I started . . . . MR. ANGELL : But it ' s not in that plan. MR. AVRAMIS : I can have it here because (unintelligible) MR. GAINEY: Two stores - what ' s the two stores now you are talking about? MR. AVRAMIS In case (unintelligible) ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Would you get back to the microphone so w I can get this on tape? Would you ask your question again because we want it as part of the record. MR. ANGELL: In the floor plan there is one door indicated and in th-e photograph, there are two doors . Is there a stairway built up that side now? MR. AVRAMIS : No sir. MR. GAINEY: How do you get to the second floor, a ladder? i 1 ii - 19 - i `I I� MR. AVRAMIS: We don' t have a second floor. MR. GALBRAITH: Where does the second door lead to right now? MR. AVRAMIS: Inside the (unintelligible) i MR. GALBRAITH: And if you ever got permission to use this second floor could you construct a stairway there? MR. AVRAMIS: Yes. �I MR. GALBRAITH: But if you don' t get permission you won' t construct a stairway there, correct? MR. AVRAMIS: Yes. MR. GALBRAITH: I don' t know if everybody understands but what he' got right now is a shell of a building erected up there . ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Any other questions? MS . DE COMBRAY: There is a back exit into the rear yard on the building? Is there a back or side exit? You only enter through the front door? MR. AVRAMIS: No, we have a back exit . MS. DE COMBRAY: There is a back exit? MR. AVRAMIS: Yes . ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay, any other questions? I take it , though, that most people feel that the plans have been changed considerably from what we looked at when there was a discussion of the back wall - egress? MS. DE COMBRAY: Well tonight, do we have to consider both the mezzanine and the second floor? ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Now the mezzanine the second floor woul have been a problem but the mezzanine. . . . cause he made a statement that he didn' t think the mezzanine would be a problem. DR. GREENBERG: They both need variances . SECRETARY HOARD: They both need variances . ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: They both need a variance. Just so we understand what we are considering. Okay, do you understand this? Do you understand that they both need a variance? MR. GALBRAITH: Yes , we made an application in here for an inter- pretation or in the alternative a variance for both. MS. DE COMBRAY: Both or either? 1 20 - I Ij MR. GALBRAITH: Both or either, right. I� ie ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Now any other questions before we hear an other testimony? Okay, thank you. Is there anyone else here who I would like to speak in favor of this application for a variance? Are those photographs submitted as part of the evidence? MR. GALBRAITH: Yes . I ' d like to submit those. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Is there anyone else who could like to speak in favor of this? Is there anyone who would like to speak in opposition to this application for a variance? Are there any other questions? We' ll move on to the next case . I i ,I 21 - BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS COMMON COUNCIL CHAMBERS CITY OF ITHACA, NEW YORK AUGUST 6, 1979 EXECUTIVE SESSION APPEAL NO. 1268 INTERPRETATION ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: The request for interpretation is answered thusly: the Board considers the new building to be a considerable enlargement, in fact, of what was there previously. Therefore this Board' s interpretation is that an area variance is required. DR. GREENBERG: I second the motion. FINDING OF FACT: 1) The square footage figures , as presented by the appellant , is considerably more not even consider - ing additional commercial uses such as stores . VOTE : 5 Yes ; 0 No ; 1 Absent . APPEAL NO. 1268 : MR. GAINEY: I move to deny the requested area variance in appeal no. 1268 , both in respect to the balcony and the second floor with either office or retail space. MR. ANGELL: I second the motion. FINDINGS OF FACT: 1) There is an increase in the second floor area which is much beyond what this Board considers acceptable. 2) The difference between the occupancy available in the prior building and the occupancy that would be available if the balcony and second floor were J _ I - 22 - i i jAPPEAL NO. 1268 (executive session continued) to be constructed, an increase due to the change in the type of occupancy a well as the increase in floor area, i so great that the Board denies this request. VOTE: 4 Yes ; 1 No ; 1 Absent Area variance denied. I I i i - 23 - I BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS I COMMON COUNCIL CHAMBERS i CITY OF ITHACA, NEW YORK AUGUST 6 , 1979 !1 i SECRETARY HOARD: The next appeal to be heard is 8-1-79 : i Appeal of U-Haul Company of Central New York, Inc. for a variance from Section 34. 6 (sign regulations in business districts) of the Sign Ordi- nance to permit erection of a reader board at the property at 343 Elmira Road. The property is located in a B-5 (business) use district, in which reader boards are not permitted. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Please come forward and state your name and address . MR. COOBLEY: My name is Martin Coobley, 176 Elm Street, Cortland, New York, employed by the U-Haul Company of Central New York. I came here for a variance for a sign which would be over twenty-six feet. Our intention for this sign, purposely, was to create - our intentions to build a new- building. To sustain any yield out of this new building it has to have more advertising . Our Company doesn't advertise - we don't believe in polluting. I can understand your ordinance. As you see, we do not advertise over television, radio - our product is our advertising. So to sustain - on any intention of going into this property and putting more money into it - we have to have some kind of advertising and a reader board, like all of our locations through the United States , Canada - you come to a U-Haul place and there is a reader board. It gives the public awareness of what we have to sell , what we have to serve to the public and it in turn gives us our profit. Without this , and then I want, you know, to go into the interpretation again, if I possibly could. On a B-5 zone we are classified as , I guess , all other businesses. What constitutes a, you know - restaurant I can see, fast food, new car dealership 1 . 5 is your total max at 200 square feet. Is this per capita volume overhead or just the way they were zoned? SECRETARY HOARD: You are asking me? You should have asked that at the Planning Board. MR. COOBLEY: I know. I had to go hash this out . I mean, I don' t I 24 - I want to come back again and If we can do it now, I ' d just as soon do it now. But, if . . . i MR. GAINEY: What is the size of the sign you are asking for? ;IMR. COOBLEY: I'm asking - we ' ll be 260 over. 26 over our limit. I' MR. GAINEY: What is the size of the sign? MR. COOBLEY: 6 x 10 MR. GAINEY: 6 x 10? Is it illuminated? MR. COOBLEY: Yes . MR. GAINEY: How close to the roadway will this be? MR. COOBLEY: It will be on your existing sign which is in accor- dance with regulations. MR. GAINEY: It will be on the - it will be in addition to the lexisting sign? IMR. COOBLEY: That' s correct. 1MR. GAINEY: Does the existing sign meet the requirements? SECRETARY HOARD: Yes . MR. GAINEY: And this is going to put it over? I ( SECRETARY HOARD: All the signs that are there now have been install d since this was passed - since the Ordinance was passed and they do ! I, conform. i CTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: It 's how far from the road? R. COOBLEY: It' s right on the boundaries of the limits . R. GAINEY: They can add no more signs - is that what you are aging? . COOBLEY: No we can add more signage but we don't want to pollu e i ur building with more signage. We don' t want to come across to y - we ustomers this way want to put it out here where we can say, � ook it, we have hitches - we are in the hitch business , now. We'v one out and we've spent a lot of money on - with hitch companies , ight, and they have cars every make of car you can believe, right? e have a hitch that will fit it . But we have no way of getting this cross to the public -- I mean, they can go , you know. . . so . . . . R. GAINEY: What is the size of your existing sign? R. COOBLEY; 7 x 12 . 84 square feet. R. GAINEY: 7 x 12 . You can' t work all of this into your existing li I !i 25 - i sign? Why? MR. COOBLEY: No . It' s just a plastic board. It 's one sign . . . MR. GAINEY: It' s one side or two sides? I j MR. COOBLEY: Two sides . MR. GAINEY: Two sides . Then why can' t you build it into your existing sign? MR. COOBLEY: On one side, the other side? MR. GAINEY: Both sides . That' s what you are talking about right? I I� MR. COOBLEY: No our sign that is up now, 7 x 12 sign, right? It ' a plastic sign, illuminated, molded, U-Haul . . . on both sides - there is no way we can - we have already invested in the sign, we can' t change that. MS . DE COMBRAY: What is a reader sign? l MR. COOBLEY: A reader board is like a menu board - it tells you - I like you see a lot of reader boards now under the old ordinance, right? Lums , hot dogs , hamburgers , you get em quick, they are goo and cold, or whatever - but it ' s a means of telling the public what you have to offer. IMR. GAINEY: You are going to invest in this sign, why can' t you redo your old sign to meet both uses? MR. COOBLEY: I don' t know how that ' s feasible. MR. GAINEY: Why? MR. COOBLEY: You tell me why. How could I take a sign that I pal(] how many thousands of dollars for and erect it and take it down and put . . . MR. GAINEY: Well you are going to spend money on a new sign. MR. COOBLEY: Correct. MR. GAINEY: So why not conform with everybody else? MR. COOBLEY: What do you mean, I don' t think we are conforming, I think I am spending more money. MR. GAINEY: No, I 'm taking about the size of the sign. When you put your existing sign up you knew you Wim to the limits , right? MR. COOBLEY: Right. But we are just trying to grow. You know, we are trying to grow with the city. s MR. GAINEY: We are just trying to control . . . I I i 26 - I MR. COOBLEY: Yes , I know, like I told you, we do not like pollution i 1we do not advertise on TV, radio - the only advertising we have is . . MR. GAINEY: That' s got nothing to do with what we are talking I! about. I 'm asking about a sign. Can this sign be conformed - could the sign be done to conform within the laws , yes or no? IMR. COOBLEY: No. We have gone and reduced our signage as much as - � our signs come out of California, we buy them in large quantities - we try to conform with every city ordinance that we have. We have places all over the United States and Canada. It ' s not feasible for a large organization to go and say - well I want a sign made here - you understand, we've cut down signs - modulars - to try to conform with the basic minimum requirements of signage and it' s hard for us . MR. ANGELL: What ' s the square footage of the sign? MR. COOBLEY: 60 square foot. MR. ANGELL : 60. MR. COOBLEY: And it gives us a total of 140 foot. MR. ANGELL : And the existing sign is ??? MR. COOBLEY: 7 x 12 , sir . MR. ANGELL: 7 x 12 . MR. COOBLEY: 84. MR. ANGELL: And all it has on it is U-Haul? MR. COOBLEY: Correct. MS. DE COMBRAY: The reader board, is that a standard sign that you send away to the U-Haul people - or you just . . . . IMR. COOBLEY: We just - our organization - we are like a franchise out of Phoenix, Arizona. We have to abide by what their tech center comes out with for this standard size. We've cut down - because we've had problems with it, you know we have a new sign now - it ' a 4 x 4 modular sign that says U-Haul . It used to be 6 x 6 but most cities would not conform with that, right? They wouldn' t con- form, so we've had to cut down. MR. GAINEY: How long has U-Haul had these reader signs in effect? MR. COOBLEY: I have been with the company two years and I believe they have been going on since - who knows? i! - 27 - MR. GAINEY: The reader boards? MR. COOBLEY: Reader board? Quite a while. IMR. GAINEY: How long have you been at your present location? MR. COOBLEY: We've been there almost two years this October. MR. GAINEY: If it was so popular before , why didn' t you sell it fat the time that you . . . ? I MR. COOBLEY: Well, we were trying to conform with what we had. I 'm asking for more I 'm asking for a yield out of our profits. You know, we want to grow - we want to grow in this city and I think it ' s going to be a good location for us because we have colleges here, there are a lot of professional people that go here and there, in transit, and if we can' t get it across to those people, then we aren' t doing you people any good either. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Well , let' s see your strict application of the hardship section - doesn't strike me as being too unusual. ( There are lots of other businesses in the same boat if you will pardon the expression that have no identification they used to see across the United States. Of course , this is changing now - everybody has got the same problem. MR. COOBLEY: We have to work withstandardization. I ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Yes , I understand that. But I can' t con- ceive the U-Haul people not running into this problem in other towns . MR. COOBLEY: Well we have, sir, that is why we have tried to con- form by building smaller signs . We just can' t go out and say to every city - oh, sure, we ' ll spend this much and get a different sign. MR. GAINEY: I 've got a feeling you are going to have to start doing that. The laws are changing all across America. All the other companies : McDonals , Carrolls, all these other companies have come a long with smaller signs. Holiday Inn even . . . MR. COOBLEY: Well , like I said, the interpretation before our intent is to invest more money in this property. As it says in the letter. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: That ' s commendable. MR. COOBLEY: Before we can do this , you know, that is in the i i I� 1 - 28 - 1 I letter that we talked about to the Planning Board this afternoon. There is no double occupancy, Mr. Hoard said if you build another building - someone else said, well you can have more square footage - Dwell you can' t - so why should we go along with building more on this property - I mean, it' s not feasible for us . ( ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay, but we are faced here with a strict interpretation of an ordinance by the City of Ithaca. We don' t i make the ordinance - we interpret it - you have a right to make a case and in this case , you feel it is a hardship because of the identification of this business that you have and I commissurate with that and we will just have to weigh that situation. Is there anyone else who has a question? MS. DE COMBRAY: I just have something to say. U-Haul , I think, would almost even gain by it - has almost become a household word (_unintelligible) and ask them and maybe it could eve be a plus to put a reader board, whatever that is , attached to the building and people will come in - I don' t really see how it would increase your business more than . . . MR. COOBLEY: Well advertisement always increases profit. MS . DE COMBRAY: Yes , but word of mouth, more than . . . MR. COOBLEY: Word of mouth - that's why - this is why we say we don' t advertise across the air like McDonalds jam the air waves - we let our product we have a marketing system - we let our product do its advertising for us . Our building now - we came into that building you don' t want to really hear this but it wasn' t much but a town barn and for that area - you know - its - we've done quite a bit of . . . ' ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay but , for the many different kinds of businesses there are, there is that many reasons for signs . MR. COOBLEY: Yes , sure. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: We understand where you are coming from. Are there any other questions? (none) Alright, thank you very much. Is there anyone else who would like to speak in favor of this application for a variance from the Sign Ordinance? Is there anyole who would like to speak against it? Any other discussion? Okay, j we will move on to the next appeal . ii 29 - BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS CITY OF ITHACA, NEW YORK COMMON COUNCIL CHAMBERS AUGUST 6, 1979 EXECUTIVE SESSION APPEAL NO. 8-1-79 : ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: I move that the Board deny the requeste sign variance in appeal no . 8-1-79. MR. GAINEY: I second the motion. FINDINGS OF FACT: 1) There is not a clear demonstration of hardship. 2) The appellent does not represent an unusual situation. 3) A variance would not observe the spirit of the Ordinance and would change the �I character of the district. ( VOTE: 5 Yes ; 0 No ; 1 Absent. Sign variance denied. I� ii I I I I I. I i' i - 30 II BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS COMMON COUNCIL CHAMBERS CITY OF ITHACA, NEW YORK I� ! AUGUST 65, 1979 I SECRETARY HOARD: The next case is appeal 8- 2- 79 : I Appeal of Ithaca Plastics for a variance �I of Section 34. 6B (sign regulations in a i� B-5 district) of the Sign Ordinance to permit erection of a free-standing pylon sign and three additional wall signs at 744 South Meadow Street. The total 1, signage on the property will exceed the i maximum permissible signage in the B-5 (business) zone in which the property is located. IMR. BUECHEL: My name is Ed Buechel and I 'm with Ithaca Plastics . � I 'm here for Zimmerman and Sons from Dallas , Texas. They are the I Company that makes all K-Mart signs and they've sent me the drawing - ( I believe the Building Commissioner has the drawings , I gave him the drawings and all of that stuff the other day. ( ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Yes , we have it. MR. BUECHEL: We probably want to pass it around to see. Now K-Mar Ihas already a permit for the K-Mart sign on the building which is It 1150 square foot, which is what they are allowed. But they want some additional signs on the building to direct people to various depart- Iments - for instance, there is an auto service center on one end of i the buildings , they want a sign over that area. There is a garden ; store in another end and they want a sign over that area. Around I the back there is going to be a 3 x 6 sign saying "building materials" to direct people into that door. I believe these are more or less i directional signs rather than advertising signs . And also out front where Westons had a standing sign, if possible they could put one the same size as Westons had at that location. Now their building his I clocked it with my car - is one-tenth of a mile back from the road and this 150 foot square sign that they already have a permit Ifor, isn' t very big it ' s not as if they were bordering the high- way. At the entrance they would like a sign to slow people down so Ithey would turn into there, because they are quite hidden back there . i ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Okay, are there any questions? I i' I - 31 - MR. GAINEY: Yes , as soon as I can . . . 1ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Will you bear with us? SMR. BUECHEL : - Sure. i AR. GAINEY: How many square feet are they allowed on this building? Total signage . . . 1SECRETARY HOARD: 150. IIMR. GAINEY: 150 square feet, on their portion of the building or i �lthat total building? SECRETARY HOARD: That' s their total . No , the grocery store would be a separate consideration - would not be considered part of it. MR. GAINEY: K-Mart is allowed 150 square feet of sign on the building? ,SECRETARY HOARD: Total . `MR. GAINEY: Even the sign out front has to be included in that 150 feet? SECRETARY HOARD: Yes . MR. BUECHEL: That ' s why I 'm here. MR. GAINEY: Okay, what is the size of the sign out front now? MR. BUECHEL: 10 x 10 , T believe. }ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: This shows 10 x 10 . So that's 100 now.. ! You want to use the existing. . . . SMR. GAINEY: If that sign out front is shared by K--Mart and Great American, they are still allowed 100 square feet or are they allowed . . . ? SECRETARY HOARD: If they considered it as a shopping center, then it would be 150 for one free standing sign identifying the center. R. GAINEY: So they could gain 50 square feet? SECRETARY HOARD: Yes . NR. ANGELL ; Is that what is proposed by the shopping center or just to identify K-Mart? R. BUECHEL: No , we already have a permit to identify K-Mart on the building. ANGELL: I understand that. BUECHEL ; Okay, now the variance they are asking for is for the i irectional signs on the building - to direct the traffic to 1 7 - 32 - various departments . . . . IMR. ANGELL: But what about this free standing sign? MR. BUECHEL : And the free standing one, as a car-puller-inner the I I building is so far back, and people come up to that red light - they' d like a sign there saying K-Mart - this is the entrance , you know. R. ANGELL : The fact that the sign doesn' t identify the plaza , it , merely identifies K-Mart? i R. BUECHEL: Just like the Westons sign is there now. R. GAINEY: So now they are 50 square feet - is that sign conforming now out front - by the road? SECRETARY HOARD: It would be conforming if there were only 50 square feet of signage on the building. You see, that' s the problem . . . R. ANGELL: So that would put them 100 square feet over . . . i SECRETARY HOARD: How much is on the building? 1 R. BUECHEL: 150 . R. ANGELL: 150 . R. BUECHEL: That just says K-Mart. 150 says K---Mart , not including he rest of those . . . R. ANGELL : That' s what I am saying this 100 square foot free Standing sing. IR. BUECHEL: Out in front . . . R. ANGELL : Is - you are asking a variance for that . . . ? R. BUECHEL: No, the other signs on the building. Now there is on hat says 2 x 18 foot plastic lighted sign reading "Garden and Auto". R. ANGELL; That' s another one? CTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX; That' s a sign one-tenth of a mile back that e wants to get a variance for. is that correct? R. BUECHEL ; No , its the one on the building. There are three signs . R. ANGELL: That' s the one on the building is in compliance 1 hat ' s 150 square feet that' s what they have now. Okay. Now, they are asking for an extra 100 feet on the free standing sign lus these extra directional signs? I� - 33 - MR. BUECHEL: Correct. !�MR. ANGELL: Which will come to approximately 36 square feet each. iAnd how many of those are there? Three? MR. BUECHEL: There are three signs , yes . One 3 x 6 , one 3 x 22 , hand one 2 x 18. IIMR. ANGELL: One 3 x 6? IIMR. BUECHELL: 3 x 6, yes, that is over a door saying "building I materials". i MR. ANGELL: And one 3 x 22? MR. BUECHEL: Yes , that says "Auto Service" - It' s over garage door where they are going to service automobiles. MR. GAINEY: What is the sign that is on the building , 10 x 15? MR. BUECHEL : Yes , it is letters K-Mart - it is not a square sign R. ANGELL: In other words you are asking for a variance on 220 square feet of sign? R. BUECHEL : Now as you discuss this , when you go over this , they are ore interested in getting their directional signs , before the en- trance sign. I mean, in other words , if we can get some of these and you will not give us others , the front sign - they would rather ave the "garden & auto store" and the "auto service store" and the 'building material" signs - they feel they - to get the people around o the various departments there when they get into the big parking of and I believe they are on different walls - they are not all facing the same direction if you will look at that sketch, there 's different elevations there . . . R. GAINEY: Are these going to be illuminated or just a plain sign, R. BUECHEL: Yes , illuminated. IS. DE COMBRAY: In other words they would accept if they, just had he ones on the building and not . . . R. BUECHEL: Yes they want to get the building -- that' s important o them so that cars can go around and find the service center and find the garden store when they are in the parking lot. They' d like hem all , naturally but they will forego the front one if they can et the others first. R. GREENBERG If the owner of the property - K-Mart - decided to it si 34 - �1consider the ediface - with the Great American Store - as one edi- face , and assuming that Great American doesn' t have the sign that' s ! close to the limit , could they consider all the signs as each . . . I, ( SECRETARY HOARD. No, each . . . ;I IDR. GREENBERG: Oh, each enterprise has to be considered separately? MS. DE COMBRAY: You mean sort of like pyramid Mall? i SDR. GREENBERG: Yes, right . 1MR. BUECHEL: But this building is sort of an exception it is so afar back. I don't know if you could even read these small signs from the road it' s a tenth of a mile , you drive that sometime . . DR. GREENBERG: I will . Let ' s put it in absolute terms. You are willing to take down the sign in front . . . MR. BUECHEL: No , I 'm not going to take it down at all - that ' s somebody else ' s sign. DR. GREENBERG: I see, let ' s assume the variance hinged on allowing the signs on the building but leaving no indication or a very small indication at the entrance. This would be acceptable to you? , MR. BUECHEL: They would - not to me - they would rather have the ( want the signs on the building - they would like those. The out sign, if they could get it - they would be happy but . . . MR. ANGELL: Would they cut their 150 foot sign? R. BUECHEL : They can' t. You mean the one on the building? It ' s a an operation like this has a standard sign their logo and K-Mart in letters . . . ANGELL : They all have standard signs but they change them if there is an ordinance that says they must change them. R. BUECHEL: It' s actually too small for where they are now. It's o far back. If they did make it any smaller it wouldn' t be any se to them. CTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Well again, we are here faced with a city rdinance adopted by Council . R. BUECHELL : Yes, I know that . CTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: But at least we know- your feelings they eel strongly about directional signs in the front , I can understan I hat. R. BUECHEL : Yes . On the building. ,f 1� ii f - 35 - i ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Having the sign one-tenth of a mile back from the road - that doesn' t make much sense. i SECRETARY HOARD: There is a clause in there . . . Okay, one of the ,, thin s that the Board would consider in possibly granting the I,variance : (a) size of sign - the purpose for which the sign is erected and the distance from which the sign is intended to be or can possibly be read and the character of the adjacent street . In all cases the smallest sign that will suit the purpose shall be the guide taking into account the legitimate commercial or other interests 1 which are intended to be promoted by the sign and the speed limits land traffic conditions on adjacent streets . In enforcing it, the Building Department would not be able to say . . . it ' s farther back and use a larger sign. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: But you want to make it a point that it is one-tenth of a mile from the road? MR. BUECHEL: Yes it is . ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Any other questions? Thank you. MR. BUECHEL : Thank you. ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: Is there anyone who would like to speak in favor of this request? Is there anyone who would like to speak in opposition? If there is no more business before the Board this end the public session, the Board will go into executive session and if you would lake to wait until after the Board finishes , we will give you the decision. Thank you very much for coming. i I I' 36 - BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS COMMON COUNCIL CHAMBERS CITY OF ITHACA, NEW YORK AUGUST 6 , 1979 I EXECUTIVE SESSION APPEAL NO. 8-2- 79 ACTING CHAIRMAN WILCOX: I move that the Board deny the requested I I sign variance in appeal 8-2- 79 . IMR. GAINEY: I second the motion. FINDINGS OF FACT: 1) The sign ordinance is clear in its implications . 2) The appellant has the latitude to provide sufficient signage within the constraints of 150 square feet. VOTE: 5 Yes ; 0 No ; 1 Absent. Sign variance denied. I i I - 37 - I I� � I , Barbara Ruane, Do Certify that I took the minutes of the Board i hof Zoning Appeals, City of Ithaca, in the matters of Appeals I� numbered 1267 , 1268 , 8-1-79 and 8-2-79 on August 6 , 1979 at City ,Hall , City of Ithaca, New York; that I have transcribed same, and lthe foregoing is a true copy of the transcript of the minutes of E' jthe meeting and the Executive Session of the Board of Zoning Appeals City of Ithaca and the whole thereof to the best of my ability. OIL Barbara C. Ruane Recording Secretary Sworn to before me this day of , 1979 Notary Public i ii